Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
 Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
    Listening Point - General Discussion
       Isle Royale to get relocated wolves
          Reply
Date/Time: 12/17/2018 12:55PM
Isle Royale to get relocated wolves

* Help stop spam. Please enter the lake name you see over the flying moose.

  

Previous Messages:
Author Message Text
Pinetree 03/30/2018 09:05AM
woodsandwater: "Interesting comments. As someone who actually worked on the Wolf-Moose project under Dr. Rolf Peterson during the summers of '78, '79, when wolf density was at it's highest with 50 animals in four packs, backpacked ten other trips, having logged about 2,000 miles over the entire island, collected the kills and tracked the packs, introduction is the way to go on this unique National Park and International Biosphere. Had not parvovirus been introduced and harmed the wolf population there might have been a different outcome. The ISLAND - Flora and fauna - not just the moose herd, needs this Apex predator. It will be facinating to see how this all plays out in the years and decades to come. If you've never been to IR, I encourage you to go. But I would defintely avoid the peak season."


Agree with you 100%.
BobDobbs 03/30/2018 08:53AM
Zulu: "I read somewhere that Biologists wish to promote diversity in the pack by including Mexican Wolves who have made their way across the border into Arizona. The Wolves are being encouraged to apply for resident status. Their pups, who only know regurgitated American food should be allowed to stay regardless."


I see what you did there ;-)
HansSolo 03/28/2018 10:02PM

woodsandwater: "Interesting comments. As someone who actually worked on the Wolf-Moose project under Dr. Rolf Peterson during the summers of '78, '79, when wolf density was at it's highest with 50 animals in four packs, backpacked ten other trips, having logged about 2,000 miles over the entire island, collected the kills and tracked the packs, introduction is the way to go on this unique National Park and International Biosphere. Had not parvovirus been introduced and harmed the wolf population there might have been a different outcome. The ISLAND - Flora and fauna - not just the moose herd, needs this Apex predator. It will be facinating to see how this all plays out in the years and decades to come. If you've never been to IR, I encourage you to go. But I would defintely avoid the peak season."

Thank you for your knowledgeable input woodsandwater and I couldn't agree with you more!

Although some may see it as interfering with nature, the inadvertent introduction of the parvovirus essentially interred with nature. It's my understanding that the parvovirus was most likely introduced by a dog that accompanied a family that had their boat docked at one of the many docks that exist at many Lake Superior shoreline campsites. Although it may seem "unnatural" to re-introduce wolves to Isle Royale, I see it as correcting a wrong.

Between 1978 to 2011, I have traveled Isle Royale eight times; four backpacking trips, three solo canoe-tripping tours of the interior lakes and the Lake Superior shoreline, and one-kayaking touring trip along the island's shoreline. Throughout my various trips to Isle Royale I've covered most all of the island and have enjoyed the varied beauty and the unique personality the island has to offer.

Isle Royale is a special place and it wouldn't have the same appeal and atmosphere without the moose-wolf relationship.

Hans Solo


BWPaddler 03/28/2018 09:42PM
woodsandwater: "Interesting comments. As someone who actually worked on the Wolf-Moose project under Dr. Rolf Peterson during the summers of '78, '79, when wolf density was at it's highest with 50 animals in four packs, backpacked ten other trips, having logged about 2,000 miles over the entire island, collected the kills and tracked the packs, introduction is the way to go on this unique National Park and International Biosphere. Had not parvovirus been introduced and harmed the wolf population there might have been a different outcome. The ISLAND - Flora and fauna - not just the moose herd, needs this Apex predator. It will be facinating to see how this all plays out in the years and decades to come. If you've never been to IR, I encourage you to go. But I would defintely avoid the peak season."


Interesting viewpoint, thanks for speaking up. I had forgotten about the virus and domestic dog link.
woodsandwater 03/24/2018 10:57AM
Interesting comments. As someone who actually worked on the Wolf-Moose project under Dr. Rolf Peterson during the summers of '78, '79, when wolf density was at it's highest with 50 animals in four packs, backpacked ten other trips, having logged about 2,000 miles over the entire island, collected the kills and tracked the packs, introduction is the way to go on this unique National Park and International Biosphere. Had not parvovirus been introduced and harmed the wolf population there might have been a different outcome. The ISLAND - Flora and fauna - not just the moose herd, needs this Apex predator. It will be facinating to see how this all plays out in the years and decades to come. If you've never been to IR, I encourage you to go. But I would defintely avoid the peak season.
Great Melinko 03/24/2018 06:53AM
I would look at relocating a moose or two to MN. #mnlowmoosehiwolfpopulation
Mad_Angler 03/23/2018 07:35PM
gkimball,


I agree. It is unlikely tat enough hunters would be interested to take enough moose. I also agree that adding hunters is not without cost and hassle for the NPS.


But I do wish hunting was added as part of the solution.


I know a few folks work hard to hunt moose in the bwca. I know that some would be interested in hunting IR.
gkimball 03/23/2018 06:34PM
From the article:


"The environmental impact statement released Friday estimated the wolf restoration price at nearly $2 million over 20 years."


Get a grip folks. Wolves and moose are one of the signature values of Isle Royale. This thread is a classic example of people who have never worked in natural resource or park management bloviating their opinions as if they are facts.


I have been to the park twice as a backpacker. The Minong Ridge trail is as rugged and remote of a trail you will find anywhere in the upper midwest. Everywhere I went I found rugged, rocky, heavily forested land interspersed with wetlands that is only accessible by foot. I know of no rivers to haul a carcass out to for transporting by canoe.


I hunted deer in the BWCA for 8 years and dragged out many animals. I also carried out the hind quarter of an adult bull elk about 2 miles in Wyoming through the thickest cover that an animal could find to die in. These experiences tell me there will not be enough people willing or able to do this on Isle Royale to reliably control moose populations as some of the posts to this thread imply.


I am also a retired park professional who has interacted with with hunters in many park settings, and have seen how they impact the places they hunt.


The result of this eclectic combination helps me see why the NPS isn't rushing into the endless hassles and no-win situations they would find themselves in if they went with the "hunting as moose population control approach." It would be one of the biggest can of worms they ever opened. First of all, they would be dependent on a reliable population of moose hunters who want to hunt in the Isle Royale setting, able and willing to haul the carcasses out, willing to spend the time and money to get it back to the mainland. This would not be moose hunting as most Minnesota or Wisconsin moose hunters know it. All while camping in a way consistent with how people camp on Isle Royale?


Looking at it from a management perspective I can see how the Park Service can think it simply wouldn't happen.


Also, setting up and administering such a hunt would be costly and time consuming. I can see how they could easily spend $2 million over 20 years to run these hunts.


Then what do you do if you realize you aren't controlling the moose population through hunting? I can only imagine what the self-procalimed "experts" would say then.


That's why I can see why they chose "Why not try to rebuild the wolf population over the next 20 years?"


Like I said - get a grip...
Mad_Angler 03/23/2018 05:42PM
ellahallely: "Alaskan moose are huge compared to the moose in Minnesota. I think the moose on the island are half the size of the Alaskan moose. So packing them out might be a little easier. Still a lot of work.



I wonder how tasty the moose are from the island. Minnesota moose is much better tasting they the Alaskan moose that I have tried."



Yup. IR moose are probably between Alaskan moose and elk. Should be able to get them out.


As for taste, I loved Alaskan moose. It was one of my favorite game animals. But my wife did think it was pretty strong...
ellahallely 03/23/2018 05:28PM
Alaskan moose are huge compared to the moose in Minnesota. I think the moose on the island are half the size of the Alaskan moose. So packing them out might be a little easier. Still a lot of work.


I wonder how tasty the moose are from the island. Minnesota moose is much better tasting they the Alaskan moose that I have tried.
Mad_Angler 03/23/2018 02:59PM
Jackfish: "MadAngler... no harm. No foul.



Have you ever been on Isle Royale? I haven't been on a moose hunt in Alaska so I can't compare, but I've been on IR three different times. Quartering a moose and hauling it out isn't even close to easy with the terrain and location along with the limitations for wheels and anything motorized."



Glad to hear that there are no hard feelings


I have never been to IR. (But I did go to Michigan Tech. So I have known about IR for a long time and I have always wanted to go there.)


My area in Alaska was a wilderness area with no motors allowed. So we would just quarter the moose, load the quarters in backpacks and hike out. My terrain was not too bad. But typical terrain can be swampy, hilly, or filled with hummocks that make hiking very difficult.


When carrying out elk, the process is the same. They are usually quartered and carried in packs. For elk, the terrain can be very rough. There are always hills/mountains. And there are often blowdowns and very dense woods.


Getting big animals out of the woods is definitely not fun. But it is very doable in nearly all circumstances. (And folks also practice some self constraint. For example, we passed on one large moose that was too far from the river to carry. Elk hunters do the same thing.)
Jackfish 03/23/2018 02:40PM
MadAngler... no harm. No foul.


Have you ever been on Isle Royale? I haven't been on a moose hunt in Alaska so I can't compare, but I've been on IR three different times. Quartering a moose and hauling it out isn't even close to easy with the terrain and location along with the limitations for wheels and anything motorized.
Mad_Angler 03/23/2018 02:17PM
pamonster: "Mad_Angler: "...
If you don't want hunting on IR, just say so. Don't use false statements to try to make your point.... "



That seams harsh. I'm not sure he was making "false statements"....just giving an opinion, like you. Obviously if you love hunting it's no big deal. Much like carrying a canoe across a portage is fine to me but sounds awful to some of my friends.


Regarding the wolves. I think if you truly have a strong position you should get active in the process. Everyone can give their 2 cents but most will never take action and that's a shame.....or maybe we don't really care"



You're right. I had second thoughts as soon as I posted it...


I agree. I doubt that Jackfish was intentionally trying to mislead folks. I should have phrased my comments differently...
DrBobDg 03/23/2018 02:11PM
Just looking briefly... about $500 to get a moose hunting license in Alaska, $800 in Montana. Looks like a lot of folk apply for licenses in Montana for various species but don't win the lottery. Using funds generated from hunting would help towards relocating wolves.


dr bob
pamonster 03/23/2018 02:07PM
Mad_Angler: "Jackfish: "...
...Has any hunter here tried to drag a large buck whitetail (even a small doe) out of a ravine or up a significant hill without the use of a 4-wheeler? (Yes, I know many of us have.) It can easily be a half-day project at minimum and you have the benefit of a 4-wheeler or pickup once you get it to the field to carry it the rest of the way home. Field dressed, a deer weighs maybe between 100# and 150#?



Of the people who are suggesting a moose hunt on Isle Royale, how many of you have actually BEEN to the island? (I know some of you have.) Are you serious about wanting to drag a moose through the steep, rocky, thickly-wooded terrain that makes up IR? In some cases, you (and about six of your closest friends) would be dragging that 500+ pound animal for up to a few miles to the closest shoreline where you would THEN have to get a boat up to the shoreline without ruining the prop, load the carcass, then get it to Rock Harbor or Windigo where you could actually boat it off the island. Yes, you could take it out in quarters, but that isn't any easier.



My personal opinion is that hunting for moose on IR is ridiculous and almost impossible to accomplish with any sort of success. ...
"




Jackfish, I enjoy BWCA.com and respect the work you've done here.



But... you clearly do not know much about moose hunting. Moose hunting in Alaska is not much different than IR. Folks do it all the time. I have personally carried several moose out of the Alaskan bush. They are cut into quarters and carried out. They are usually carried to a canoe or raft on the nearest river. The last one was about 1 mile from the river. It is not easy. But it is definitely doable and folks do it all the time.


It is very similar to elk hunting out west. Thousands of elk are killed, quartered, and hauled out of the mountains. It is fairly common to haul elk quarters 2-5 miles over rough mountainous terrain. By contrast, it would be fairly easy to haul moose quarters to the closest water that could float a canoe.


If you don't want hunting on IR, just say so. Don't use false statements to try to make your point.




"



That seams harsh. I'm not sure he was making "false statements"....just giving an opinion, like you. Obviously if you love hunting it's no big deal. Much like carrying a canoe across a portage is fine to me but sounds awful to some of my friends.


Regarding the wolves. I think if you truly have a strong position you should get active in the process. Everyone can give their 2 cents but most will never take action and that's a shame.....or maybe we don't really care
Mad_Angler 03/23/2018 01:40PM
Jackfish: "...
...Has any hunter here tried to drag a large buck whitetail (even a small doe) out of a ravine or up a significant hill without the use of a 4-wheeler? (Yes, I know many of us have.) It can easily be a half-day project at minimum and you have the benefit of a 4-wheeler or pickup once you get it to the field to carry it the rest of the way home. Field dressed, a deer weighs maybe between 100# and 150#?


Of the people who are suggesting a moose hunt on Isle Royale, how many of you have actually BEEN to the island? (I know some of you have.) Are you serious about wanting to drag a moose through the steep, rocky, thickly-wooded terrain that makes up IR? In some cases, you (and about six of your closest friends) would be dragging that 500+ pound animal for up to a few miles to the closest shoreline where you would THEN have to get a boat up to the shoreline without ruining the prop, load the carcass, then get it to Rock Harbor or Windigo where you could actually boat it off the island. Yes, you could take it out in quarters, but that isn't any easier.


My personal opinion is that hunting for moose on IR is ridiculous and almost impossible to accomplish with any sort of success. ...
"



Jackfish, I enjoy BWCA.com and respect the work you've done here.


But... you clearly do not know much about moose hunting. Moose hunting in Alaska is not much different than IR. Folks do it all the time. I have personally carried several moose out of the Alaskan bush. They are cut into quarters and carried out. They are usually carried to a canoe or raft on the nearest river. The last one was about 1 mile from the river. It is not easy. But it is definitely doable and folks do it all the time.

It is very similar to elk hunting out west. Thousands of elk are killed, quartered, and hauled out of the mountains. It is fairly common to haul elk quarters 2-5 miles over rough mountainous terrain. By contrast, it would be fairly easy to haul moose quarters to the closest water that could float a canoe.

If you don't want hunting on IR, just say so. Don't use false statements to try to make your point.



mastertangler 03/21/2018 05:40AM
I agree with almost all of your post Oslo and also agree that that we should be good and responsible stewards of the planet.


I was not aware however of there having been several mass extinctions. An interesting proposition of which I can probably assume there are some basis to make the claims. The veracity of which is probably subject to varying amounts of disagreement within the scientific community (as would be expected) but certainly there can be no denying of mass extinction event/s outside of human involvement.


But (not to put to fine a point on it) I am generally always suspect whenever I hear the words "some scientists believe" etc. etc. as per the next mass extinction being imminent. That statement, "some scientists believe", is usually a precursor to opinions which lack much depth or substance IMO and need the help from the much vaunted "scientific community" to gain credibility and traction. That is not a smear by the way of scientists, I always wanted to be one, but they are not always correct as history has clearly shown and to blithely accept what is put forth from the scientific community without at least some skepticism is not wise. After all, scientists are merely people, and people are often impacted by political and financial factors which directly effect their lives. For example, I would not want to be a scientist in this day and age and publicly express any doubts on Climate Change as it is very likely your career (and thus your families future) might be directly impacted. Sad but true.

But I digress, what were we talking about? Oh yes, importing wolves to Isle Royale to do something about the ever expanding moose population. If you have never seen a moose just go to the island.


OSLO 03/20/2018 06:40PM
mastertangler: ""Balance of Nature" Bah humbug.........no such thing. When beavers overpopulate, they get sick and the entire watershed is killed off.........lemmings run off of cliffs etc. etc. etc. Nature is ruthless and indiscriminate and doesn't give a one whit about "balance".



This notion that man kind is somehow not part of this world (were we imported from another planet?) and somehow considered as the "problem" I don't buy into. Yup people make mistakes and are not good stewards at times I get it. But we are also exceptional caretakers at times as well. This finger pointing at humanity is not helpful IMO.



Lets say mankind was not here......at all. Gone, vanished. Think there still wouldn't be "Climate Change"? Or Hurricanes or wildfires or other cataclysmic events which impact the life on the planet? Of course we all know the answer. Species have come and gone and all without mankinds involvement.



I have been on the island for some 40+ days. I believe there could be a moose hunt there as is anywhere else. People are intrepid and often have significant means available. Let folks worry about how to get their moose out of the woods. It can be done. Would it thin the herd sufficiently enough? Doubtful but the dollars collected could certainly help offset the cost of importing wolves.......which may decide to leave anyways as per the last bunch as soon as the ice is thick enough.


My moose hunt would be to sit in one of the shelters provided by park service, reading and drinking coffee until one walked up. "hey guys, a little help". "

I don't know if I completely follow everything in your post. Humans certainly can hurt or help other species. Unfortunately, the scale and reach of many of the changes we are responsible for are unprecedented. Not only is the magnitude of our changes unparalleled, but we are also uniquely capable of informing ourselves about our actions, and changing our behaviors if we wish to. So although we should receive credit for working hard to save species and restore habitat, we also absolutely deserve all the blame we get for habitat destruction and being responsible for more extinctions than any other species on Earth.


If humans were not on Earth, extinction would of course still happen. We have concrete evidence that is the case in the form of the fossil record, which documents extinctions happening long, long before humans walked this planet. In fact, we have evidence of at least five mass extinctions that have occurred, and humans were not around for any of them. However, many scientists believe that we are now entering into a sixth mass extinction, and we are not only alive for this one, but we are believed to be responsible for it. We can sit back and shrug our shoulders and say that mass extinctions have happened before, and the Earth will not end. However, just because the Earth will not end, does not mean that our descendants will like what they are left with. You're correct that nature is ruthless and indiscriminate--it does not care if our ecosystems are teaming with diverse communities that provide us with food, oxygen, medicine, and enjoyment, or contain sparsely populated, depauperate regions with little benefit to us. Nature doesn't care, but we should.
Zulu 03/20/2018 02:04PM
I read somewhere that Biologists wish to promote diversity in the pack by including Mexican Wolves who have made their way across the border into Arizona. The Wolves are being encouraged to apply for resident status. Their pups, who only know regurgitated American food should be allowed to stay regardless.
mastertangler 03/20/2018 01:46PM
Pinetree: "HowardSprague: "From what I've read, so far they've only had two Yellowstone wolves put in for transfers, and one lone wolf from the Isabella area."
They're trying to get the same contract the new Vikings quarterback is getting. Three years and 84 million dollars. They're holding out."



Ha! Good one!
HowardSprague 03/20/2018 01:06PM
Pinetree: "HowardSprague: "From what I've read, so far they've only had two Yellowstone wolves put in for transfers, and one lone wolf from the Isabella area."
They're trying to get the same contract the new Vikings quarterback is getting. Three years and 84 million dollars. They're holding out."



All the parks were trying to get the Northern Rockies' Wolf #2137 - strong alpha male, experienced hunter, has all the great wolf fundamentals - but he decided to stay in Oregon. Other free agents still out there are the Michigan Upper Peninsula's Wolf #314, Wyoming's Female Wolf #600, and Mike Glennon.
Pinetree 03/20/2018 12:38PM
Northland: "Captn Tony: "Sorry I disagree. Man has to interfere in nature because of the mess he makes of nature in the first place.
Here we have an turkeys, otters, osprey, trumpeter swans etc. All because of DNR transplanting. If we wouldn't have messed things years earlier we wouldn't need transplanting but we did. Now admittedly mistakes have been made. Maybe this is one, but people sure seem to be quick to condemn."

I agree with this. By inserting our presence into the ecosystem in such a forceful way - with major development, population growth, and the resulting habitat loss, etc., we've upset the balance. To re-establish that balance, actions that are outside the natural course of events are needed.

Whether we even SHOULD re-establish that balance, or whether the actions chosen are right or wrong, I don't know. But the only alternative with Isle Royale is to let things be. If moose were truly imported there to begin with, maybe that's a better option. But keeping in mind that a key word in NPS is "park," which are for primarily for looking at, I never thought they'd leave things alone, anyway.

Then again, at this point, there are so many species existing in our world which were once "invasive" that it's all getting muddled together, anyway. "

It's a tough call either way.

I just wonder what would happen to the vegetation if no wolves are introduced and long term effects on the carrying capacity for moose than. Even in the BWCA you can still see the effects of the deer population was very high and only a few wolves present.

One thing though... nature never really seems in balance. It has its cycles.
Pinetree 03/20/2018 12:35PM
HowardSprague: "From what I've read, so far they've only had two Yellowstone wolves put in for transfers, and one lone wolf from the Isabella area."
They're trying to get the same contract the new Vikings quarterback is getting. Three years and 84 million dollars. They're holding out.
mastertangler 03/20/2018 10:45AM
"Balance of Nature" Bah humbug.........no such thing. When beavers overpopulate, they get sick and the entire watershed is killed off.........lemmings run off of cliffs etc. etc. etc. Nature is ruthless and indiscriminate and doesn't give a one whit about "balance".


This notion that man kind is somehow not part of this world (were we imported from another planet?) and somehow considered as the "problem" I don't buy into. Yup people make mistakes and are not good stewards at times I get it. But we are also exceptional caretakers at times as well. This finger pointing at humanity is not helpful IMO.


Lets say mankind was not here......at all. Gone, vanished. Think there still wouldn't be "Climate Change"? Or Hurricanes or wildfires or other cataclysmic events which impact the life on the planet? Of course we all know the answer. Species have come and gone and all without mankinds involvement.


I have been on the island for some 40+ days. I believe there could be a moose hunt there as is anywhere else. People are intrepid and often have significant means available. Let folks worry about how to get their moose out of the woods. It can be done. Would it thin the herd sufficiently enough? Doubtful but the dollars collected could certainly help offset the cost of importing wolves.......which may decide to leave anyways as per the last bunch as soon as the ice is thick enough.

My moose hunt would be to sit in one of the shelters provided by park service, reading and drinking coffee until one walked up. "hey guys, a little help".
HowardSprague 03/20/2018 10:32AM
From what I've read, so far they've only had two Yellowstone wolves put in for transfers, and one lone wolf from the Isabella area.
Northland 03/20/2018 07:16AM
Captn Tony: "Sorry I disagree. Man has to interfere in nature because of the mess he makes of nature in the first place.
Here we have an turkeys, otters, osprey, trumpeter swans etc. All because of DNR transplanting. If we wouldn't have messed things years earlier we wouldn't need transplanting but we did. Now admittedly mistakes have been made. Maybe this is one, but people sure seem to be quick to condemn."



I agree with this. By inserting our presence into the ecosystem in such a forceful way - with major development, population growth, and the resulting habitat loss, etc., we've upset the balance. To re-establish that balance, actions that are outside the natural course of events are needed.


Whether we even SHOULD re-establish that balance, or whether the actions chosen are right or wrong, I don't know. But the only alternative with Isle Royale is to let things be. If moose were truly imported there to begin with, maybe that's a better option. But keeping in mind that a key word in NPS is "park," which are for primarily for looking at, I never thought they'd leave things alone, anyway.


Then again, at this point, there are so many species existing in our world which were once "invasive" that it's all getting muddled together, anyway.


MrBadExample 03/19/2018 03:50PM
Here is proof of my moose herding skills.


Moose herding
MrBadExample 03/19/2018 03:40PM
Here’s another idea I think people are forgetting about.


Why not remove the moose from the island and transplant them back to the mainland? They’d have to round up a posse of the most diabolical cowboys this side of the pecos. Folks with enough grit to drive a herd of moose accross rugged terrain. Coax them to swim accross the lake to freedom. Letting out hardy “Yee Haw’s” and “Giddy Up Now Moose”.


Who’s with me?



I have herded a moose before. Walked behind her for 2 miles of the Grand Portage. It can be done.



;)
ellahallely 03/19/2018 03:25PM
Crazy world we live in. Michipicoten Island there moving the caribou off the island by helicopter to save them from the wolves. Isle Royal they want to move the wolf to the island to save the moose. And this is only 2 islands in 1 lake.


I find reading the comments from the readers in the strib entertaining.
Pinetree 03/19/2018 02:07PM
In determining which wolves to put on the island, the Park Service would look for healthy wolves of different ages and genders representing the greatest range of genetic diversity it can find.
The 20-year cost of reintroducing wolves and monitoring them should be about $2 million, according to an estimate included in the plan.


Wolf
Jackfish 03/19/2018 01:42PM
Has any hunter here tried to drag a large buck whitetail (even a small doe) out of a ravine or up a significant hill without the use of a 4-wheeler? (Yes, I know many of us have.) It can easily be a half-day project at minimum and you have the benefit of a 4-wheeler or pickup once you get it to the field to carry it the rest of the way home. Field dressed, a deer weighs maybe between 100# and 150#?

Of the people who are suggesting a moose hunt on Isle Royale, how many of you have actually BEEN to the island? (I know some of you have.) Are you serious about wanting to drag a moose through the steep, rocky, thickly-wooded terrain that makes up IR? In some cases, you (and about six of your closest friends) would be dragging that 500+ pound animal for up to a few miles to the closest shoreline where you would THEN have to get a boat up to the shoreline without ruining the prop, load the carcass, then get it to Rock Harbor or Windigo where you could actually boat it off the island. Yes, you could take it out in quarters, but that isn't any easier.

My personal opinion is that hunting for moose on IR is ridiculous and almost impossible to accomplish with any sort of success. If bringing in a number of wolves from the outside and setting them free on the island can keep the moose population in check like they've done for decades, then I see nothing but success for the project.

The $2 million price tag for the project is pretty steep, considering that's between $66,000 and $100,000 per wolf. On one hand, I find that incredibly hard to believe, but then on the other hand, this is the same government that paid $500 for a hammer.
Grizzlyman 03/19/2018 10:36AM
MrBadExample: "




Why don’t they introduce a more interesting predator than wolves? I mean, if they just need something to eat the moose, why not put Siberian Tigers or Komodo dragons on there?



What’s the difference?"



I think you're on the right track. Dinosaurs were native to isle royale waaaayyy before wolves. Komodo dragons may be the next closest thing to restoring a "natural" habitat.


That is of course until we have the technology to "Jurassic park" ourselves some velociraptors....
riverrunner 03/19/2018 08:09AM
We ate a lot of the fish bullheads when I was a child they really are just small catfish.


I should go out and catch batch again.


The state record yellow bullhead came from a very near by lake.
mastertangler 03/19/2018 06:18AM
Boiled bullheads? The fish or the cow (bull;-)?


All I can say to either is Ewwwww!! I have never even heard of such a thing. What do you do? Cut some heads off and toss them in a big cauldron of boiling water with a few sprigs of parsley? Sounds positively barbaric. "yes sir, the special today is boiled bull heads delicately seasoned and boiled for a full six hours........skulls are pre cracked........only $59 complete with soup or caesar salad".
BWPaddler 03/19/2018 12:23AM
MrBadExample: "My grandpa always said that a man could starve to death eating moose meat.



Then again, grandpas favorite meal IS boiled bullheads.



I always thought it tasted fine."



It is DELICIOUS! Better even than venison imho!
MrBadExample 03/18/2018 08:44PM
My grandpa always said that a man could starve to death eating moose meat.


Then again, grandpas favorite meal IS boiled bullheads.


I always thought it tasted fine.





Why don’t they introduce a more interesting predator than wolves? I mean, if they just need something to eat the moose, why not put Siberian Tigers or Komodo dragons on there?


What’s the difference?
03/18/2018 08:38PM
I'll help 'em for WAY LESS than 2 mill if they think they have too much moose meat on the island. Sign me up!
MrBadExample 03/18/2018 07:36PM
I believe the general theory is the wolves crossed over the ice.


I don’t think there would have been enough of the prey they need to survive if not for the moose.


Pinetree 03/18/2018 07:27PM
Wolves have never been introduced,moose I am not sure,I know they say some came across the ice.
ellahallely 03/18/2018 07:25PM
I wonder how long before we start cloning and introducing wildlife? Cows are cloned on a regular basis for less than $20,000. 30 cloned wolf at $20,000 each = $600,000, 1.4 million less than relocating them. All with very different genetics, if we want.


Not for me. But you know some would think this a great idea.
MrBadExample 03/18/2018 05:20PM
Wolves were native to Yellowstone. I can understand trying to return it to its natural state.


Were they native to Isle Royale prior to mans introduction of moose?


I honestly don’t know.


If there were no moose on Isle Royale I would assume there would be no wolves.



Pinetree 03/18/2018 11:36AM
After the original wolf population expansion you would think the population would drop off and then level out. I believe at the time of introduction the elk population was also excessively high and now is at lower levels but still very healthy.
I use to winter camp in the back country of Yellowstone in the 80's and elk numbers were unreal and way to high. There was like 19,000 elk in the northern Yellowstone herd alone. About 1987 before were were back they observed the first Mountain lion in the park in a very long time. They are back now.

Getting off track which I am good at.
I remember when wolves were first introduced in Yellowstone a coyote came up to a wolf wagging his tail in friendship. The friendship was short lived and also was the coyote. Coyote numbers plummeted and almost disappeared but now came back some(a little) when they learned to run like heck now.


ellahallely that was a interesting article.
OSLO 03/18/2018 11:05AM
ellahallely: "Oslo I wish the Yellowstone wolves were doing good. However from what I understand they have been inbreeding for many years. Some say they are facing the same fate as the Isle Royal wolves. Yes all for naught!!
Genetic Viability Link "

The wolf population has actually been relatively steady in Yellowstone for quite awhile. The graph in the article you linked to was either outdated or purposefully cut-off at the last dip in 2012. Here is a more recent population graph (link). I have not seen any recent, published studies that have predicted the demise of the wolves in Yellowstone due to inbreeding. In the articles that I have read, decreases in genetic variation and population that have been observed have been attributed to hunting and trapping outside of the park. Again, population within the park has been relatively steady for a decade though!
ellahallely 03/18/2018 10:43AM
Oslo I wish the Yellowstone wolves were doing good. However from what I understand they have been inbreeding for many years. Some say they are facing the same fate as the Isle Royal wolves. Yes all for naught!!
Genetic Viability Link
HighnDry 03/18/2018 10:20AM
arctic: "muddyfeet: "arctic: "
(See "North Shore: A Natural History of Minnesota's Superior Coast" by Chel Anderson and Adelheid Fischer, 2015).
"





That is a fantastic book!"




Absolutely--a masterpiece."



I'll look for it. I'm always liking for natural history books on the region. Thanks!
OSLO 03/18/2018 10:00AM
ellahallely: "When man sticks their finger in stuff like this things never go well. I look at what has happened to fishing on Mille Lacs lakes. Millions spent and no one is happy with the results. Or radio collard moose research calves being abandoned by their mothers and killed by wolves."
Many examples of humans successfully restoring ecosystems exist. A classic case is the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone, which by most accounts I have read has been considered a resounding success. Mille Lacs is a challenge because the DNR is making recommendations, and then stakeholders (e.g., resorts) are pushing back, resulting in compromises that are probably not the best course of action according to researchers. When that happens, the fishery is unlikely to rebound as quickly as possible. Regarding moose mortality and collars, researchers knew that some animals would die as a result of their work, which is definitely tragic. However, if the information gained results in many more moose surviving long-term, then you can certainly make an argument that the studies were worth the losses. In both of the cases you cited, the DNR stepped in because humans had already negatively impacted the communities through habitat destruction, introduction of non-native species, climate change, and over-harvesting.
OSLO 03/18/2018 09:49AM
DeanL: "Grizzlyman: "I swear the DNR agencies just do these things to see if anyone's keeping score....




I don't know how many articles they've written over the past few years about how wolf populations don't impact moose.




Then of course this whole article is about using wolves to control moose population...."

I love this view point. Maybe it's a different strain of wolf than NE MN has that is conditioned to prey on moose because all we've been told is MN wolves don't eat moose."

I'm confused about where people are reading that wolves don't impact moose. This Star Tribune article from a couple of years ago (http://www.startribune.com/in-saving-minnesota-s-moose-scientific-breakthroughs-and-difficult-choices/365163651/) cites DNR data, and lists wolf kills as the number one cause of death among moose. Moose and wolves are native species which have coexisted for a very long time. Wolves will kill moose, but are therefore unlikely to extirpate the species from a large area unless other factors are involved. Those other factors are where we are involved--helping whitetail deer (many of which carry brainworms) dominate the area, and contributing to a rapidly warming climate which stresses the moose and increases parasite populations. Unhealthy moose then make an easy target for wolves.
MrBadExample 03/18/2018 09:39AM
MikeinMpls: "Yes....... more human hubris. We're smarter than nature.



Except we're not.



Mike"




This, in my opinion, is what it all boils down to.


The moose were brought there by humans. It’s been unnatural since day 1. An experiment. To gain what?
Grizzlyman 03/18/2018 09:09AM
Maybe, just maybe, in nature populations thin out, then other populations balloon, then they thin out, then others balloon, etc.


Whatever- Michigan is paying for it- correct?


Pinetree 03/18/2018 08:48AM
We could do nothing and let the moose continue to eat themselves out of existence and destroy the habitat for many decades to come and a much lower carrying capacity in the future. It is the right move to reintroduce the wolf.
Its ironic the wolf population decreased from dog pirovirus(sp) from someones domestic dog brought to the Island. Three wolves died from falling in a mine shaft. Yes human beings are part of the picture and always will be. It is the question how we want to project it in many instances?
riverrunner 03/18/2018 06:57AM
MrBadExample: "I would say that I agree with you somewhat.



My basic stance is that we as humans already meddle in nature enough just existing.



Why do we also try to control it with actions such as this?



Where does the idea come from making us think that we have the best idea what should happen in nature?



If have posted these questions before. They are honest questions. "



When hasn't man been involved with nature as long as man as been around they have changed the areas they live in for their betterment. From the earliest peoples setting fires, dropping rocks into streams any other thing they have done.


The idea that you can get man out of nature is foolishness because we are part of nature.


As far as the wolves and moose on the island, it makes more sense to have a hunt and charge people and use that money for the park them to spend it on a program that cost the park millions of dollars.


Then in another 50 years have to do it all over again as the wolves inter breed and die off.


If wolves cross over by themselves so be it that is nature placing them there is not.


Humans hunting and killing things is nature we have been doing that as long as the wolves have.
DrBobDg 03/18/2018 06:10AM
DeanL: "Grizzlyman: "I swear the DNR agencies just do these things to see if anyone's keeping score....




I don't know how many articles they've written over the past few years about how wolf populations don't impact moose.




Then of course this whole article is about using wolves to control moose population...."

I love this view point. Maybe it's a different strain of wolf than NE MN has that is conditioned to prey on moose because all we've been told is MN wolves don't eat moose."




I wonder how they were taught that.?? Maybe Wisconsin wolves can be taught not to eat farmers calves and folks pet dogs. That would leave them with the deer herds that need to be thinned out due to CWD>



dr bob
Captn Tony 03/18/2018 06:06AM
Sorry I disagree. Man has to interfere in nature because of the mess he makes of nature in the first place.
Here we have an turkeys, otters, osprey, trumpeter swans etc. All because of DNR transplanting. If we wouldn't have messed things years earlier we wouldn't need transplanting but we did. Now admittedly mistakes have been made. Maybe this is one, but people sure seem to be quick to condemn.
DeanL 03/18/2018 04:40AM
Grizzlyman: "I swear the DNR agencies just do these things to see if anyone's keeping score....



I don't know how many articles they've written over the past few years about how wolf populations don't impact moose.



Then of course this whole article is about using wolves to control moose population...."

I love this view point. Maybe it's a different strain of wolf than NE MN has that is conditioned to prey on moose because all we've been told is MN wolves don't eat moose.
mjmkjun 03/18/2018 03:46AM
MikeinMpls: "Yes....... more human hubris. We're smarter than nature.



Except we're not.



Mike"

Thumbs up! Am in same mindset. "God-given intelligence" is a relative concept.
mastertangler 03/17/2018 08:36PM
Well something probably needs to be done wether or not we agree with "meddling". We are the caretakers on this planet and we can use our God given intelligence to care for the creation.


Right now there are some 1,200 moose on the island. That seems a bit much. A controlled hunt or relocate some predators. Both options have merit IMO. If I were in charge we would do both. The controlled hunt would help in offsetting the costs of introducing the wolves. Take the money from the hunt every year and bring in some wolves with the $$. Little by little some semblance of balance can be restored.


Mother nature is often cruel and ruthless when dealing with such issues as overpopulation.
MikeinMpls 03/17/2018 01:29PM
Yes....... more human hubris. We're smarter than nature.


Except we're not.


Mike
DrBobDg 03/17/2018 10:49AM
ellahallely: "When man sticks their finger in stuff like this things never go well. I look at what has happened to fishing on Mille Lacs lakes. Millions spent and no one is happy with the results. Or radio collard moose research calves being abandoned by their mothers and killed by wolves.



In the last 30 years the ice bridge has formed several times and many wolves have crossed it. Only to be chased by airplane and followed by "researchers". In every case they turned around and left. In fact over the years wolf have left the island over the ice bridge. 2 million to move 20 wolves? Is this a joke? Misprint? Or theft?

I know this would never fly, but I say let the Native Indians of Minnesota and Michigan hunt them. That way the numbers could be controlled. We have three Bands already hunting moose in Minnesota. Maybe they could take it to the island . I know nobody has a closer history and relationship with the island then the Grand Portage Tribe.


I have come to grips with the fact I can understand and relate to the wolves and moose more then I can with some people these days. And I am okay with that. We won't thin the wolf packs to save the moose, so we can have both. But will watch people run their sled dogs to death for our enjoyment."




Amen Brother !!! Preach it. Can you imagine the $$ it will take to relocate wolves so they can hunt and kill moose....??? I am sure if you asked a moose they would rather die by a bullet rather than starving or being stalked and hunted down by a pack of wolves.....


dr bob
arctic 03/17/2018 08:27AM
muddyfeet: "arctic: "
(See "North Shore: A Natural History of Minnesota's Superior Coast" by Chel Anderson and Adelheid Fischer, 2015).
"




That is a fantastic book!"



Absolutely--a masterpiece.
muddyfeet 03/17/2018 08:06AM
arctic: "
(See "North Shore: A Natural History of Minnesota's Superior Coast" by Chel Anderson and Adelheid Fischer, 2015).
"



That is a fantastic book!
MrBadExample 03/17/2018 08:00AM
I would say that I agree with you somewhat.


My basic stance is that we as humans already meddle in nature enough just existing.


Why do we also try to control it with actions such as this?


Where does the idea come from making us think that we have the best idea for what should happen in nature?


If have posted these questions before. They are honest questions.
Grizzlyman 03/17/2018 07:50AM
I swear the DNR agencies just do these things to see if anyone's keeping score....


I don't know how many articles they've written over the past few years about how wolf populations don't impact moose.


Then of course this whole article is about using wolves to control moose population....
ellahallely 03/17/2018 06:30AM
When man sticks their finger in stuff like this things never go well. I look at what has happened to fishing on Mille Lacs lakes. Millions spent and no one is happy with the results. Or radio collard moose research calves being abandoned by their mothers and killed by wolves.


In the last 30 years the ice bridge has formed several times and many wolves have crossed it. Only to be chased by airplane and followed by "researchers". In every case they turned around and left. In fact over the years wolf have left the island over the ice bridge. 2 million to move 20 wolves? Is this a joke? Misprint? Or theft?

I know this would never fly, but I say let the Native Indians of Minnesota and Michigan hunt them. That way the numbers could be controlled. We have three Bands already hunting moose in Minnesota. Maybe they could take it to the island . I know nobody has a closer history and relationship with the island then the Grand Portage Tribe.

I have come to grips with the fact I can understand and relate to the wolves and moose more then I can with some people these days. And I am okay with that. We won't thin the wolf packs to save the moose, so we can have both. But will watch people run their sled dogs to death for our enjoyment.
arctic 03/16/2018 06:24PM
An interesting discovery about the moose herd on Isle Royale is that they were likely purposely introduced in the early 20th Century by wealthy sportsmanship groups for hunting. The wolves followed on their own over the ice years later. These moose allowed wolves to survive on the island.


A 1998 genetic study showed that the moose on Isle Royale don't match any of the three types known in Ontario, but do match those from NW Minnesota.


It was previously assumed that a few moose had crossed the lake ice in the cold winter of 1912-13, but the herd was already up to 250-300 animals by 1915--an impossible amount of growth.


Moose are extremely wary of going out onto the sheer lake ice that would occur on a frozen Lake Superior. Smaller, snow-covered lakes, yes.


(See "North Shore: A Natural History of Minnesota's Superior Coast" by Chel Anderson and Adelheid Fischer, 2015).
DrBobDg 03/16/2018 05:44PM
seems like a controlled hunt of moose would be a better idea. Since our wonderful courts won't allow wolf hunts in Wisconsin....we can spare a few.


dr bob
Savage Voyageur 03/16/2018 04:17PM
Hopefully they will get the wolves from different areas and packs so they won’t be so inbred like last time.
OCDave 03/16/2018 03:08PM
Star Tribune Article 3/16/2018

I had hoped that we'd get a winter cold enough to create an ice bridge so a few hungry wolves could find their way out to the island but, it appears the park service won't be waiting for that to happen. Should this open the door to replaced the many other species that disappeared from the island?