Hi Everyone:

My group of 6 guys will be headed to the BWCA two weeks from now (May 23)! As it has been a cool spring, and because we had a few nights in the 30s last May, we are trying to decide if we're going to stick with our lighter sleeping bags and "layer up," or if we're going to pull out the 25-year-old classic cotton bags and sleep well.

Of course our debate is centered around the added weight, and the fear of a cotton bag getting wet (or more likely - damp). We all pack in dry bags, and pack our dry bags in large 115L dry bags, so we feel pretty confident we won't get them drenched, but one never knows.

My group is spread out geographically, so each week, I put together a different survey and send it out. The surveys help me plan (menus, routes, happy hours, etc.).

I have created a survey for you all to take. Please help my group decide what types of sleeping bags we should bring!

Here's a survey (please copy and paste it - it's a quick one): https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DH5Q85T

Interesting, never heard anyone prefer an "old cotton bag" for warmth. I have been camping and tripping over 4 decades and never even considered a cotton bag over synthetic or now down.

butthead

PS: Learn to use the link function, it's simple and easy. A courtesy to those you want to use the link. adding a link bh

I guess my thought is that my backpacker Marmot sleeping bag didn't quite do the trick, so I thought I'd go for a nice, heavy bag.

Weight has little to do with the insulation value. If you can't afford to upgrade bags go to layers of sleep wear, or a liner. My 45 degree bag is less than 2 pounds and good to 35, with a 60X2 inch air/down mattress.

butthead

quote roling: "I guess my thought is that my backpacker Marmot sleeping bag didn't quite do the trick, so I thought I'd go for a nice, heavy bag."

Heavier is not the same as warmer. I wouldn't do it - I don't think it's a good idea. I vote NO.

I would also leave the cotton bags behind. A couple extra under layer of clothing will go a long ways toward keeping you warm if you need.

Question, are you using a pad or mattress under? That is key to sleeping warm.

butthead

Listen to Butthead. He knows. (Bet you thought you'd never see those words in print.)

quote Jackfish: "
Listen to Butthead. He knows. (Bet you thought you'd never see those words in print.)"

+2 "old heavy good sleeping bags" is truly an oxymoron. Down filled nylon bag with insulated sleeping pad + wool cap + lightweight poly underwear and you'll be warm sleeping on snow. We carry 15 degree comfort rated down filled bags that weigh right at 2.3 pounds. Most nights in late may I don't even zip it up or I use it as a quilt. It's probably overkill but, I have no intention of being too cold to sleep. Been there done that.

I can come down squarely on the fence on this issue. If warmth and weight are my criteria, there is no question about using my synthetic bag. However, I have never crawled into a synthetic bag that "feels" as good as that old duck print flannel.

quote Unas10: "I can come down squarely on the fence on this issue. If warmth and weight are my criteria, there is no question about using my synthetic bag. However, I have never crawled into a synthetic bag that "feels" as good as that old duck print flannel."

Well first off you shouldn't be "feeling" your synthetic bag to begin with as you should always have something on via under layers between your skin and the nylon. My base layer is silk and it "feels" rather nice despite the nylon. I usually add layers over the silk as well. The idea is to keep the bag clean and away from any dirt, grime or body oils such as sweat which compromise its effectiveness.

BnD has mentioned something which bears repeating........one of the most important things you can have to stay warm is a wool watchman style cap. I add fleece gloves and down booties but I have become a bit of a pansy when it comes to cold having lived in Florida now for some 30 years.

Another advantage of going with using warmer base layers is that you can use the base layers for more than just sleeping in. If you are cold sitting around the fire at night or in the AM you can have them on.
Also those cotton bags are going to absorb moisture in the night and be damp in the AM so will need to be dried out longer than a down or synthetic bag. If it rains during your stay your bags may also get wet if you happen to have a tent leak (Hopefully not).
I would go with the synthetic bags you have or get some warmer ones if $$ is not an issue. Lots of great name brand bags out there on ebay that can be had for very little money.

quote Jackfish: "
Listen to Butthead. He knows. (Bet you thought you'd never see those words in print.)"

PETE, your making my "butt" swell, stop that!

Just an example of adjusting for temp with a single bag. I use a BA Horsethief 35 degree bag, 800FP down. Summer use with an +- 2inch uninsulated airmat, shoulder season 2inch short downmat, and have slept comfortable below freezing by using a full length 3inch downmat and just a layer of light merino wool undies with a balaclava.
It needs to drop into the teens before I'm taking a 0 degree down bag (800FP Pomer Hoit).

butthead

Thanks Butthead. I appreciate your feedback. I use an Ultralite Cot, not a sleeping pad.

quote roling: "Thanks Butthead. I appreciate your feedback. I use an Ultralite Cot, not a sleeping pad."

A cot has more convection loss than an air mattress or sleeping on the ground. You need some insulation in addition to the cot. Even a thin sheet of closed cell foam 1/4 inch will make a difference. I used an REI Blue CCF pad on a cot down below freezing.

butthead

PS: Thermarest article on r-value bh

You should consider sleeping bag liners or a travel sheet to add to your lighter weight sleeping bag. Take the ratings they have with a grain of salt but you should be able to add 5-7 degrees of warmth not the 10-15 they claim. Those will add about a pound or less of weight to your gear. Far better than a cotton sleeping bag

Closed cell foam pads are on clearance for 15 clams at REI right now. Layers and liners are good options, but you could also consider just getting another light weight bag like the Marmot Nanowave 55 and use it as an outer bag over your other bag. Its fairly cheap and packs small. More than a few of us winter type campers do double bags instead of one big one. Together less than 100 bucks, and would add maybe 20-30 degrees to your system.

Liked your survey by the way!

Cute survey. I use a down quilt on top of an exped synmat for all seasons except winter. For winter camping I add in a liner quilt and sometimes a synthetic mummy bag opened up like a quilt w/a footbox, depending on forecast lows. I've slept warm down to -15.

If its going to be really warm out I'll use the liner quilt by itself, but its gotta be no less than 60 or so at night.

I'd rather use the synthetic bag and layer up if needed. No way I'm dragging a cotton bag along. You don't wear cotton clothes because it will rob your body of heat. Same thing with a cotton sleeping bag.

If it's going to be under 40, I take a stocking cap, a pair of wool socks that are only used for sleeping, and a pair of synthetic long johns that are only used for sleeping. In addition to keeping yourself dry, stay hydrated and well fed to sleep warm.

I couldn't answer the "what do you sleep on question" I'm a hanger. :)

If I'm on the ground, I'd lose the cot in favor of a good pad, bring a 32 degree bag that'll pack small/light, and prepare to layer as/if necessary.

Trying to get a group of guys to agree on anything is like trying to heard cats. I have tried many times before with hunting, fishing and canoe trips. I stopped long ago getting everyone in our group to make group decisions. You will find after all your planning others will do what they want or bring what they have already. Or worse yet you will have trips where everyone brings an axe, or 4 water filters, or no matches and no toilet paper.

To your question, a few days before your trip look at an extended forecast and decide then. If it's going to get down to 35 deg at night then bring a 30 deg bag.
Good luck on your debate.

I'm not trying to get us all to agree, just to get thoughts. I am leaning toward getting a new liner for my bag...

As for making sure we're not bringing 4 of one thing and none of another, I organize my group online. Here is my solution for that: (Look! I made a link! ;-) Online Gear Checklist

quote roling: "I'm not trying to get us all to agree, just to get thoughts. I am leaning toward getting a new liner for my bag...


As for making sure we're not bringing 4 of one thing and none of another, I organize my group online. Here is my solution for that: (Look! I made a link! ;-) Online Gear Checklist "

When I was younger, I once slept on an uninsulated air mattress at a buddy's place. I got so cold that night and it didn't matter how many layers I put on top. The next night I put blankets down under me to insulate from the floor and I was warm and toasty with half the layers total and it being a colder night.

Sleeping on a cot like that where you are compressing the layers of insulation you are laying on is going to make you cold regardless of a liner or not. Its like turning the heat way up but leaving the window wide open. Add enough insulation and you might be able to compensate for the heat lost under you, but insulating where you need it is going to be far more effective, cost and comfort wise.

quote roling: "I'm not trying to get us all to agree, just to get thoughts. I am leaning toward getting a new liner for my bag...


As for making sure we're not bringing 4 of one thing and none of another, I organize my group online. Here is my solution for that: (Look! I made a link! ;-) Online Gear Checklist "

Hey, I got a kick out of your gear list, I'd just been updating mine for summer trips over the weekend. One comment off the sleeping bag topic though - you aren't planning to go with just one compass, are you? Even with just one boat I always make sure we have two compasses and maps.

No cotton. No cot. Pad or something and LAYERS silk and wool.

I'm a warm sleeper, but in addition to my regular bag or quilt, I bring a US Army poncho liner. Packs small, is light, inexpensive, and is decent size when laid out. Adds 10-15 degrees of comfort for me. I vote for layers too.

If warmth and comfort is what you're after, down is the way to go.

quote A1t2o:
Sleeping on a cot like that where you are compressing the layers of insulation you are laying on is going to make you cold regardless of a liner or not. Its like turning the heat way up but leaving the window wide open. Add enough insulation and you might be able to compensate for the heat lost under you, but insulating where you need it is going to be far more effective, cost and comfort wise."

Yes and yes

Take the lighter weight bags, take a ccf pad, wear your longjohns, hat, and thicker wool socks= be warm

I'm sure I don't have to say it, but the temperature ratings on bags vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from bag to bag... and most ratings demonstrate survivability, not necessarily best comfort.

I'm a hot sleeper, so I find the lowest temp I'm likely to face on that trip, and can safely range from that temp to 5-10 degrees warmer when selecting from my arsenal of sleeping bags. So for lowest expected temperature being in the mid-30s, I could probably get away with my 40 degree bag and a pair of socks and some silk thermies. Others who are more cold-blooded would probably want a 20 degree bag.

I definitely prefer a bag that's wider at the shoulder than the foot. More air space = more air to heat up. BUT... I HAVE to have plenty of room at the shoulder, so rectangular bags like my North Face Adirondack (semi-rectangular, synth fill, slightly tapered) is nice. But it's definitely for warm summer camping. I wouldn't take it to the BWCA except for in the middle of summer. I like the Big Agnes Lost Ranger... tapered at the feets, wide at the shoulders, and the best part is that there is no insulation on the bottom of the bag. Squashed insulation is useless insulation. You need the loft to hold air, that's what creates the insulation. I also tend to open my bag at night so I can kick my foot out for temperature regulation. The Lost Ranger almost acts like a quilt top because it's got a fair bit of room along the torso and shoulders. Also, instead of insulation, there is a sleeve that you can slide your sleeping pad into. I prefer a closed cell foam pad because it's more comfortable and insulates better. It also doesn't face the peril of deflation. The thorny bushes in the grand canyon have destroyed two of my Thermarest pads and left me sleeping on cold rocks. I have a closed cell pad that also has an inflatable section that goes under the torso and shoulders. I love it.

For the last question on the survey, I said I pack like a backpacker, because I am a backpacker... and I can't afford to have a set of backpacking gear and a set of canoe tripping gear... they've got to be able to do both. Down is the way to go, in terms of weight, space, and warmth. The only problem with down is that it loses its ability to insulate when it gets wet, and synthetic won't.

My grandfather gave me an old air force cotton sleeping bag that he used in survival training in Alaska - and it was VERY warm. It also weighed about 10 pounds and did not pack down much at all. I took it car camping in the winter a couple times, and used it to sleep in a tent at their house in the mountains in Colorado several times when I was a kid and it definitely was a champ at keeping me warm. But I'd never haul it around in a backpack or portage pack, with lighter and less bulky options available now.

I pack my sleeping bag in a water proof compression sack, then pack that in a storage size Ziploc bag, then keep THAT in a roll-top dry bag for portaging... never had a problem with it getting wet.

quote roling: "I'm not trying to get us all to agree, just to get thoughts. I am leaning toward getting a new liner for my bag...


As for making sure we're not bringing 4 of one thing and none of another, I organize my group online. Here is my solution for that: (Look! I made a link! ;-) Online Gear Checklist "

Norski Nook Pie !!!