BWCA Self Issue Permits and Leave No Trace Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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06/22/2017 01:22PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Let me preamble this thread by saying I am not making any accusations or assumptions regarding the recent campsite destruction. This is purely hypothetical. I'm hoping for an intelligent discussion.

In light of the recent campsite trashing threads, it seems that at least some of the campsite trashing occurred during the self-issue permit time period from October through April. Maybe it is a stretch, but is it possible that since self issue permit holders don't have to report to a ranger or to an outfitter and since they aren't required to watch the Leave No Trace Video, that those campers might be more apt to break the Leave No Trace policy?

I am normally in favor of less regulation and less government interference, but do you think that the elimination of self-issue permits could reduce the kind of campsite trashing that we have been seeing lately?

Maybe if a Winter camper had to watch the Leave No Trace video and had to report to a ranger or outfitter to pick up their permit, then just maybe a short discussion and a little oversight could limit these types of campsite trashing incidents. Maybe?



 
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06/22/2017 01:52PM  
Given how bad some of these campsites have been trashed I can't believe that anyone thought that it was ok to do what they did simply because they didn't see a 5 minute video stating otherwise.

Often times when I go rent through an outfitter I do not end up watching the video so I'm sure a lot of people enter the BWCA even during the permit season without having seen the infamous video.

You also have to take into account the nature of the people that do this kind of thing. Do you think they'd concern themselves with reserving a permit? They've broken almost every rule in the book already, whats one more added to the list?
 
06/22/2017 02:16PM  
Unfortunately I think you are probably correct Nofish. The type of person to do that type of destruction likely doesn't care about the rules or regulations. This likely isn't a case of not knowing the rules. It is more likely a case of not caring about the rules.

I also think you are correct about the infamous LNT video. That wouldn't make a difference with the type of individual that would cause this level of trashing.

It would be a shame if any regulations got more restrictive due to the selfish acts of a very few individuals.

Let's just hope these types of scenerio stay the anomaly.

 
06/22/2017 02:42PM  
Considering the amount of people that use the BWCA every year and how few sites actually get ransacked I assume its a pretty isolated incident. We just hear about them a lot more often because of the existence of internet forums like this where it gets shared. In the past the same thing was probably happening but it didn't get broadcast to the masses.

 
06/22/2017 10:09PM  
The self registration has worked great for decades.
The mess left as mentioned above even a idiot would know it was wrong.
 
06/22/2017 10:27PM  
I think we can thank cable television (particularly the Dicovery channel an the History channel) for what we see. More people wanting to try living off the land and bush crafting. While trying out those things isn't fundamentally wrong and not all bush crafters are slobs, the BWCA and public lands in general are not appropriate places to be trying to replicate what you see on TV or YouTube...
 
SevenofNine
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06/23/2017 06:46AM  
quote DuluthPak: "
Maybe if a Winter camper had to watch the Leave No Trace video and had to report to a ranger or outfitter to pick up their permit, then just maybe a short discussion and a little oversight could limit these types of campsite trashing incidents. Maybe?"
"


Like myself for example, if you looked at the people using the self issue permits you probably would find they use the BWCA more than just in Winter. This is about caring for the environment and caring about your fellow man and their experience in the boundary waters. Unless you can get them to care nothing will change how they act.
 
RLancer
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06/23/2017 08:15AM  
quote brux: "I think we can thank cable television (particularly the Dicovery channel an the History channel) for what we see. More people wanting to try living off the land and bush crafting. While trying out those things isn't fundamentally wrong and not all bush crafters are slobs, the BWCA and public lands in general are not appropriate places to be trying to replicate what you see on TV or YouTube..."


I would think that it's Youtube more than TV even. There are a lot of Youtube channels dedicated to bush craft. The people on these channels are out in the middle of the woods building shelters out of live trees a lot of the time or making fire out of whatever is around. They don't tell you where they are at or that you shouldn't be doing this on public land. They set out on their channel to make a name for themselves and teach bush craft not preach LNT. I've only seen a couple of bush craft-esque videos that I would approve. Some of the channels I used to watch moved away from teaching and into TV show style videos. I quit watching them altogether. Addressing the people who seem to show a large amount of ignorance. The LNT and permitting system doesn't seem to apply to them, or that's what they think. As mentioned above. They just don't care about other people or don't think about it at the time.
 
06/23/2017 01:47PM  
I was at a state forest beach today and a bus load of 4h camp kids arrived with their camp counselors. The "people in charge" brought 75 kids into the lake and showed them how to wash there hair with soap in the water. They also let them break a ton of others rules and dug huge holes (2-3 feet deep 5 feet wide) in the sand. I asked the "people in charge" to fill them in and they didn't understand why. I told them toddlers could fall in and drown (they dug them deeper than the water table). The "people in charge" didn't watch any of the kids as they were swimming and instead sun bathed and flirted with each other. If this is how 4h camp is run, its no wonder that generations of kids are growing up clueless.
 
06/23/2017 04:09PM  
quote Canoearoo: "I was at a state forest beach today and a bus load of 4h camp kids arrived with their camp counselors. The "people in charge" brought 75 kids into the lake and showed them how to wash there hair with soap in the water. They also let them break a ton of others rules and dug huge holes (2-3 feet deep 5 feet wide) in the sand. I asked the "people in charge" to fill them in and they didn't understand why. I told them toddlers could fall in and drown (they dug them deeper than the water table). The "people in charge" didn't watch any of the kids as they were swimming and instead sun bathed and flirted with each other. If this is how 4h camp is run, its no wonder that generations of kids are growing up clueless. "


Sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen.
 
mschi772
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06/23/2017 05:11PM  
quote Canoearoo: "I was at a state forest beach today and a bus load of 4h camp kids arrived with their camp counselors. The "people in charge" brought 75 kids into the lake and showed them how to wash there hair with soap in the water. They also let them break a ton of others rules and dug huge holes (2-3 feet deep 5 feet wide) in the sand. I asked the "people in charge" to fill them in and they didn't understand why. I told them toddlers could fall in and drown (they dug them deeper than the water table). The "people in charge" didn't watch any of the kids as they were swimming and instead sun bathed and flirted with each other. If this is how 4h camp is run, its no wonder that generations of kids are growing up clueless. "


The saddest part is that I'm not at all surprised.
 
06/23/2017 10:44PM  
I emailed a complaint to 4h about the soap in the lake, we will see if anything comes of it.
 
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