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2old4U
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07/11/2017 02:47PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php

Did a little count over lunch using Mike Berg's Hawg Board as a unit of measure, and the trend is disturbing, to say the least, of Sag retaining it's notoriety as a world class trophy walleye destination. Rough count...and I might be off one or two here and there...using comparison dates of May 13th.-July 9th...reveals the following:

2002-2007 averaged 126 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28" or over (Pretty impressive!)

2008-2012 the average drops to less than half at just 61 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28"+

2013-2017 the average plummets by over 50% AGAIN to just 21 walleyes 28"+ during the same time frame of 5/13-7/9.

I'm sure there'll always be trophies to be had in Sag, but in what numbers...and why are they disappearing at such an alarming rate? For the record 99.9% of the fish in this comparison were released to be caught again. Lack of natural bait? Fishing pressure? Runoff from major fires? Climate Change? Better fishermen in the good old days? What say you???

 
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QueticoMike
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07/11/2017 03:06PM  
Were there the same amount of people fishing during those time frames?
 
07/11/2017 03:16PM  
whats the mike berg hawg board ? something at the fish camp ?? if so sounds like just a sample of there customers ? and census does show less visitors each year to the bwca , but i'm sure being a motorized lake pressure does get to it, a lot of people want that outboard.
 
The Great Outdoors
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07/11/2017 03:19PM  
Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe.
 
kingeric027
  
07/11/2017 03:32PM  
Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.

Climate change is already really hurting cisco and perch in MN lakes, which are main food sources for walleye. This will definitely be a problem for MN walleye going forward... :(
 
07/11/2017 03:46PM  
quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.


Climate change is already really hurting cisco and perch in MN lakes, which are main food sources for walleye. This will definitely be a problem for MN walleye going forward... :(
"
perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before.
 
kingeric027
  
07/11/2017 03:54PM  
quote shock: "
quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.



Climate change is already really hurting cisco and perch in MN lakes, which are main food sources for walleye. This will definitely be a problem for MN walleye going forward... :(
"
perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before. "


Glad I could fill you in. Plenty of other good stuff to read out there too.
http://www.startribune.com/climate-change-is-a-culprit-in-walleye-s-decline/302314741/
 
07/11/2017 03:58PM  
all due respect, but sorry not buying the perch thing . it really doesnt even make sense ,
 
mastertangler
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07/11/2017 03:59PM  
The "Be all, End All" for anything that is in flux........climate change.

I wonder (much like the planet itself) if Mn perch and cisco populations are experiencing a natural down cycle? A cycle which may last a year or even decades? Independent of what the climate is doing? What a novel concept! What other factors could be in play?

As per declining trophy fish.........again perhaps a natural cycle. Lakes don't stay trophy fisheries forever..........they may experience a natural decline for many years and suddenly rebound.

The only sure thing in this world is change.........be it the climate or the fishing.
 
Savage Voyageur
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07/11/2017 04:40PM  
If I caught big fish I would not be bragging about it on an open forum. You posted the fish caught but you did not post the number of fishermen. Question for you, is the same number of fishermen catching less fish? It's only a trend if the number of fishermen is the same catching less or smaller fish. Otherwise these are just numbers.
 
07/11/2017 07:21PM  
My neighbor is friends with Mike and goes up there regularly, he's probably put a bunch on the brag board over the years. He usually has a pretty good idea of how the lake is doing. I'll see what he says and post.

Northern Light Lake has been on fire the last few years, especially for keeper size walleyes, so I know the guides and owner have really pushed people to that lake instead of Sag so some of the numbers will simply be less people in this small sample size fishing Sag.

I do know the last few years the fishing changed for them on Sag with less big ones in the shallow traditional spots. They had a couple of bad years then adapted like all good fisherman do and found them in different spots (can't tell ya where). In general recently the springs have been colder and longer than usual then spring boarding into summer...the minnow spawns have been at different times (later and faster--shorter period of time) or nonexistent so those shallow spots in bays and emergent weeds where the spawns occur have been slow. That's where most of the "hogs" came from in the past on the hawg board. Fish go where the food is...if the minnows don't come in to spawn then the walleyes don't come in to feed. They are still there---just feeding somewhere else. I've seen the same thing on Kabetogama the last 3 years. The fish surveys are at a high point but catch rates on the big fish are way down. Still there but in different spots---I haven't figured it totally out yet :)

Also there is going to be a natural ebb and flow of walleye size, walleye over 28" are already old. Year classes eventually have to die off and Mother Nature doesn't produce awesome year classes year after year. They all can't be huge forever :)

T
 
marsonite
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07/11/2017 07:54PM  
What about the spiny water flea? "They" say it's bad for the food chain. Maybe they are a factor?
 
07/11/2017 08:04PM  
quote kingeric027: "
quote shock: "
quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.



Climate change is already really hurting cisco and perch in MN lakes, which are main food sources for walleye. This will definitely be a problem for MN walleye going forward... :(
"
perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before. "



Glad I could fill you in. Plenty of other good stuff to read out there too.
http://www.startribune.com/climate-change-is-a-culprit-in-walleye-s-decline/302314741/"


Climate change is a serious issue but you can't just blame it for everything or you look disengenuous and uninformed. It does more harm than good.

Before you blame climate change maybe check actual fish survey results for the lake you are talking about. Yellow perch are not an abundant species nor considered important to the ecosystem or a forage species for Sag and Ciscoes are doing just fine right now on Sag. The star tribune article you reference was referring to lakes in the middle part of the state and shalllower such as Mille Lacs, Sag is considered a legacy lake...deep water, good land around it not developed and in the article you referenced it is a lake that would be resistant to problems if the future temp predictions are true.

T
 
07/11/2017 09:38PM  
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe."


You hit the nail on the head. I would bet that the C@R mortality is really high. When folks catch a big fish they tend to keep it out of the water too long for photos, or the fish was spent from the fight, or the surface water was warm, or.... spiny water fleas--these really can mess up the bottom of the food chain.
 
QueticoMike
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07/12/2017 08:07AM  
I'm waiting to see what Al Gore says about all of this before I make decision on what is going on here :)
 
07/12/2017 08:17AM  
quote QueticoMike: "I'm waiting to see what Al Gore says..."

Often my go-to source as well :-))
 
2old4U
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07/12/2017 08:27AM  
Hooking mortality should be less of a factor in recent years, if it ever was a much of a factor at all, as anglers are much more informed on the proper C&R methods and better handling of fish out of the water than they were in the past, so I doubt that plays much if any role. On top of that, the fish in this sample were all caught by either Mike himself or his clients, and if anything they are much more informed and cognizant of releasing trophy fish quickly and in good health. All the things anglers do in the process of catching, photographing, and releasing fish has been going on for a long time, and like I said that process has gotten better, not worse, in modern times. I don't see it as a major contributor in trophy decline. Look at smallies...same methods for them and they abound! (Sorry TGO!)

Secondly, I don't believe in the notion that aging walleyes get big and die off...they do, of course, but they have been doing that for a millennia...it's called recruitment and as old fish die a new year class will be up and coming to take their place...as they grow to trophy size and replace the class before of them. It's not like all the walleye in the lake hatch, grow, and die at the same rate until one day there's no big fish left and everything starts all over.

I'm not a huge blame the climate for everything kind of guy, but I do wonder in this case if it plays a part as timatkn mentioned with the Cisco population? Cisco are especially important to a lake's trophy fish as they are a fatty oily fish and predators that key on them can grow much faster and larger than they would on a typical perch or sucker diet. Cisco definitely like colder deeper water...where many big walleyes spend the majority of their time feeding throughout the year...so if warmer water is affecting Cisco populations then it only stands to reason it would affect that of walleyes that feed on them. I'd have to do a lot more research on whether this could be a factor on Sag, but my hunch tells me it probably has at least something to it.

I think the trend to push clients to nearby Northern Lite lake could also be a limiting factor, but I have yet to make those counts on the Hawg Board to compare...but I definitely will! Could be, but why would people hassle with going into Canada if they could catch big walleye, and plenty of them, on Sag...unless the fishing isn't as good on Sag as it used to be?? Could be partly to blame, but not completely.




 
mapsguy1955
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07/12/2017 09:00AM  
Climate change may SEEM like a catch-all phrase to some, but the facts are that it is the only global factor compared to everything else that will affect water temps, and quality. The rest is local. If my job or recreation was dependent on today's climate, I would do all of the research I could, ignoring that which comes out of the mouths of those with vested interests in retaining the status quo, IE fossil fuel companies. Maybe it is just me, but I can't see how what we are doing would NOT affect the climate in some/myriad ways, given the absolute numbers.
 
mutz
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07/12/2017 09:35AM  
Perch and Cisco are both fish that run in cycles. On the lake I'm on in Northern Michigan (14,000 acres), we go in seven or eight year cycles, of fair to fantastic perch fishing. I know some like to blame "climate change" on everything but I think this is stretching it.
 
Mnpat
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07/12/2017 09:57AM  
What if the lake was out of balance because of to many big fish. Walleyes have been known to be cannibals. If all of the smaller fish were gone I would be concerned. Otherwise it's part of the cycle.
 
07/12/2017 10:35AM  
quote arctic: "
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe."



You hit the nail on the head. I would bet that the C@R mortality is really high. When folks catch a big fish they tend to keep it out of the water too long for photos, or the fish was spent from the fight, or the surface water was warm, or.... spiny water fleas--these really can mess up the bottom of the food chain."


Mortality goes up as the water warms during the summer. Always bothers me when somebody catches a big fish and they keep it out of the water for excessive amount of time.
If it is a forage food thing the DNR should be able to look at growth rates.

I do believe in catch and release,but also believe when water is hot or warm if you go out fishing to catch 100 fish you will have significant mortality.

I know the early years walleye grew to enormous size in that lake and fishing pressure increased. Also maybe when walleye first were introduced in there like many times a species fills a vacuum or niche and they grow like crazy than it changes.

So many variable involved.
 
The Great Outdoors
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07/12/2017 10:50AM  
quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php

Did a little count over lunch using Mike Berg's Hawg Board as a unit of measure, and the trend is disturbing, to say the least, of Sag retaining it's notoriety as a world class trophy walleye destination. Rough count...and I might be off one or two here and there...using comparison dates of May 13th.-July 9th...reveals the following:
2002-2007 averaged 126 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28" or over (Pretty impressive!)
2008-2012 the average drops to less than half at just 61 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28"+
2013-2017 the average plummets by over 50% AGAIN to just 21 walleyes 28"+ during the same time frame of 5/13-7/9.
I'm sure there'll always be trophies to be had in Sag, but in what numbers...and why are they disappearing at such an alarming rate? For the record 99.9% of the fish in this comparison were released to be caught again. Lack of natural bait? Fishing pressure? Runoff from major fires? Climate Change? Better fishermen in the good old days? What say you??? "

How about the chance that more people are using crank baits, causing their production to drop dramatically??? :)
 
07/12/2017 11:04AM  
quote mapsguy1955: "Climate change may SEEM like a catch-all phrase to some, but the facts are that it is the only global factor compared to everything else that will affect water temps, and quality. The rest is local. If my job or recreation was dependent on today's climate, I would do all of the research I could, ignoring that which comes out of the mouths of those with vested interests in retaining the status quo, IE fossil fuel companies. Maybe it is just me, but I can't see how what we are doing would NOT affect the climate in some/myriad ways, given the absolute numbers. "


Speaking in generalities I agree. What I am saying is it is lazy to blame Climate Change for every problem. In this case it cannot or is highly unlikley to be a factor. Cold water species like Cisco's and Lake trout are doing fine on Sag according to recent surveys. Although globally average temps are up I do not think that has been the case on Sag. Could it be a factor in the future--sure it is totally possible but taking a global phenomenon and applying to a specific region without first looking at local conditions and species is lazy and inaccurate. It does more harm to Climate Change than it helps. It's similar to when we have a hot summer and people say, see...it's global warming. Any decent scientist will say that is weather and not specifically a sign of Climate Change. It makes people doubt the whole issue when others attribute things to Climate Change incorrectly.

T
 
bruleman
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07/12/2017 11:28AM  
One old timer, who owns a cabin on Sag, told me that the fishing is affected by the fact that the Lake is fed by 5 chains, which creates a good food source. Gunflint guides informed me that Sag, but not Seagull, has been infected by the spiny water flea. Based on my own experience, fishing Sag over the past half dozen years, the walleye production has declined. I have not fished it the last few years, but have noticed comments on the messageboard. Fishing pressure has something to do with it. I can recall very similar circumstances occurring in Northern Wisconsin. Looking for more productive fishing, is what caused my dad and I to migrate to the BWCA, back in 1957. I know fisherman that have left the BWCA for the end of the road in Canada, to catch more fish.



 
2old4U
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07/12/2017 11:31AM  
quote mutz: "Perch and Cisco are both fish that run in cycles. On the lake I'm on in Northern Michigan (14,000 acres), we go in seven or eight year cycles, of fair to fantastic perch fishing. I know some like to blame "climate change" on everything but I think this is stretching it. "


Only on Sag a the trend has been downward for 15 years...decreasing by over half every 5 years...indicating the cycle of bait fish can't be the culprit or the increase in trophy walleye would also cycle with the bait. Good years of bait production would be followed by good years of better than average trophy numbers, right?
 
2old4U
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07/12/2017 11:35AM  
quote The Great Outdoors: "
quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php


Did a little count over lunch using Mike Berg's Hawg Board as a unit of measure, and the trend is disturbing, to say the least, of Sag retaining it's notoriety as a world class trophy walleye destination. Rough count...and I might be off one or two here and there...using comparison dates of May 13th.-July 9th...reveals the following:
2002-2007 averaged 126 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28" or over (Pretty impressive!)
2008-2012 the average drops to less than half at just 61 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28"+
2013-2017 the average plummets by over 50% AGAIN to just 21 walleyes 28"+ during the same time frame of 5/13-7/9.
I'm sure there'll always be trophies to be had in Sag, but in what numbers...and why are they disappearing at such an alarming rate? For the record 99.9% of the fish in this comparison were released to be caught again. Lack of natural bait? Fishing pressure? Runoff from major fires? Climate Change? Better fishermen in the good old days? What say you??? "

How about the chance that more people are using crank baits, causing their production to drop dramatically??? :)
"


Ha! Ha! Nice try there, but the board shows almost all are caught on rigs and bobbers. I like where you're coming from though!
 
2old4U
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07/12/2017 11:38AM  
What about lake clarity? Any old timers on here know if maybe the lake is clearer now than it used to be? Everybody knows clearer water lends itself to tougher daytime walleye fishing. Far as I know the lake has always been pretty clear, but I may be wrong.
 
07/12/2017 11:44AM  
Interesting read, but put out about 9 years ago. I assume the downward trend is continuing.

BWCA Usage Study

"Participation in Fishing—Fishing is a major activity
in the BWCAW. While not an exclusive BWCAW wilderness
value, it is a common activity of engagement and a
big part of experiences there. We asked two questions
about fishing in 1991 and 2007 in order to follow some
trends in engagement and the role of fishing in trips
there. From 1991 to 2007, the reported proportion of
respondents who fished during their trip dropped from
83% to 77%. This was a significant change (Table 14).
We also asked them if they fished, whether it was a
priority for the trip. Of those that fished, there was also
a significant decrease in the importance they attached
to it (47% described the fishing as a major reason for
going on the trip in 1991, 35% in 2007)."

"Shifts in Fishing
An interesting shift from 1991 to 2007 was the percentage
of overnight visitors reporting they fished during
their trip and that fishing was a priority on their trip
(Figure 8). This trend is also consistent with national
trends in fishing and hunting. Data from the 2006 National
Figure 8—Of respondents who fished, 47% described fishing
as a major reason for their trip in 1991 compared to
35% in 2007.

Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation
suggest that the percentage of individuals nationally
who participated in fishing has decreased from 21% in
1991 to 13.1% in 2006 (USFWS 2006)."
 
ZaraSp00k
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07/12/2017 11:59AM  
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe."


exactly

warm water and shallow fish like bass, OK
but a cold deep water fish like walleye are not going to survive for long
lake trout even less chance to survive after C&R
 
mutz
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07/12/2017 01:01PM  
quote 2old4U: "
quote mutz: "Perch and Cisco are both fish that run in cycles. On the lake I'm on in Northern Michigan (14,000 acres), we go in seven or eight year cycles, of fair to fantastic perch fishing. I know some like to blame "climate change" on everything but I think this is stretching it. "



Only on Sag a the trend has been downward for 15 years...decreasing by over half every 5 years...indicating the cycle of bait fish can't be the culprit or the increase in trophy walleye would also cycle with the bait. Good years of bait production would be followed by good years of better than average trophy numbers, right?"




I'm just not sure how climate change can be blamed for affecting the perch and Cisco on a lake in Minnesota, but there has been no change in the cycle on the lake I'm on or any others that I fish.
 
bruleman
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07/12/2017 01:27PM  
A veteran Gunflint guide told me that the number of BWCA fisherman has been on the decline. I think that he would know. We fished North Bay on Brule Lake, for many years, beginning in 1957. It was almost a sure thing to catch your limit of walleyes in the evening. I have sampled the opinion of some Brule fishermen, in recent years. They tell me that the evening bite is still good, but I am not hearing the same kind of success that we had in the 50's through the 70's. One person speculated that there was not a lot of fishing pressure on Brule, that most canoeists were just travelling through. It all seems to be related to the increase in the use of the BWCA. I recall camping on Brule one June in the late 60's, after they had incorporated the Lake in complete BWCA restrictions and seeing only one other person on the lake.
 
mastertangler
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07/12/2017 01:42PM  
quote mapsguy1955: " I would do all of the research I could, ignoring that which comes out of the mouths of those with vested interests in retaining the status quo, IE fossil fuel companies. "


Just curious Maps Guy, have you ever contemplated that the ultimate special interest promoting global warming (whoops, climate change since the computer projections are turning out to be a farce) is the masterminds in big government? If you want to talk money there is tens of billions of dollars in play and not from private companies but rather from governments who seek power over every aspect of society, from your health care to the car that you drive to the profits of industry etc. etc. etc.....

As per research my advice is to be very skeptical since the naysayers, be they the welder or the scientist, will be punished (destroyed if possible) and slandered for not going along with the globalist agenda. Step out of line as a scientist and your career will certainly suffer as the powers that be will make certain your research doesn't get published and grants seem to be given elsewhere. FWIW thats whats really going on.

 
07/12/2017 02:16PM  
quote hooky: "Interesting read, but put out about 9 years ago. I assume the downward trend is continuing.


BWCA Usage Study


"Participation in Fishing—Fishing is a major activity
in the BWCAW. While not an exclusive BWCAW wilderness
value, it is a common activity of engagement and a
big part of experiences there. We asked two questions
about fishing in 1991 and 2007 in order to follow some
trends in engagement and the role of fishing in trips
there. From 1991 to 2007, the reported proportion of
respondents who fished during their trip dropped from
83% to 77%. This was a significant change (Table 14).
We also asked them if they fished, whether it was a
priority for the trip. Of those that fished, there was also
a significant decrease in the importance they attached
to it (47% described the fishing as a major reason for
going on the trip in 1991, 35% in 2007)."


"Shifts in Fishing
An interesting shift from 1991 to 2007 was the percentage
of overnight visitors reporting they fished during
their trip and that fishing was a priority on their trip
(Figure 8). This trend is also consistent with national
trends in fishing and hunting. Data from the 2006 National
Figure 8—Of respondents who fished, 47% described fishing
as a major reason for their trip in 1991 compared to
35% in 2007.


Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation
suggest that the percentage of individuals nationally
who participated in fishing has decreased from 21% in
1991 to 13.1% in 2006 (USFWS 2006)." "


The average fishermen is much more educated and modern equipment make him much more efficient and also I think you now more than ever have a real hard core fishermen who fishes every minute he is up there.
 
07/12/2017 02:25PM  
You look at the lake surveys and cisco population has been fairly stable since the early 80's at least when surveys are shown on the lake finder page. Yellow perch usually are not present in high numbers. But the 2014 survey showed fair numbers of age about 3-4 year old perch which may make the walleye bite a little slower.
It also looks that the walleye population from the early 80's forward peaked around 2000 with a great year class of walleyes hatching that year Mid 90's statewide had some great hatches
The super big walleyes(over 25 inches) did not show up in the DNR's gillnets in any numbers going back to the early 80's but the mesh size used by the DNR does not catch the real big fish in proportion what is out there.
Those super big(28 inches up) walleyes once and a few still are probably are in the age 20 area.
Also walleye are classified as a cool water fish.

Brule lake is fished very very hard now but still has a decent population. Yes less fish than maybe a decade ago.
 
07/12/2017 03:27PM  
quote Pinetree: "
quote hooky: "Interesting read, but put out about 9 years ago. I assume the downward trend is continuing.



BWCA Usage Study




The average fishermen is much more educated and modern equipment make him much more efficient and also I think you now more than ever have a real hard core fishermen who fishes every minute he is up there."


Could very well be. This whole conversation is based on anecdotal evidence from an outfitter's "hawg" board, so who knows for sure anyway? LOL
 
CityFisher74
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07/12/2017 04:06PM  
Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects.
 
07/12/2017 04:29PM  
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects."


That is new to me if it is a sea lamprey?
I know the Silver Lamprey is present in Quetico I know in Cairn lake and I believe is natural. They are much smaller than the sea lamprey but do attach to fish. I don't know if they are abundant enough or big enough to kill a fish. Maybe small fish
 
SaganagaJoe
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07/13/2017 01:54AM  
I've taken trips on Sag over 5 years and not a single walleye caught on Sag. Now I can blame something other than my poor technique!
 
lundojam
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07/13/2017 06:55AM  
I can tell you that the story locally is that "it's no good anymore." Sometimes that means there are fewer fish, sometimes a tougher bite, sometimes the fish have changed location/forage. Nothing seems to stay the same underwater.
 
2old4U
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07/13/2017 11:46AM  
Yes, of course this is all "anecdotal". I never implied it was based on any true science or research...just one guys lunch hour entertainment observations is all.

Having said that, some of you, no offense, are missing the point. Try to follow me here as I don't explain myself very well...but the Hawg Board is nothing more than a daily recording of fish 28" or over, as recorded by a local guide and his daily clients. It is not a record of fishing as a whole by everybody who fished that day on Sag, nor is it a reflection on any other lake in the area, Brule for instance. It simply records that guides daily catch rate of trophy walleye...AND, if you take just that into account, as I did, you cannot help but see the catch rate of trophy walleye IN HIS BOAT BY HIM AND HIS CLIENTS has dwindled significantly throughout the past 15 years. Every fish is released, just as it always has been. Every 28"+ fish is recorded, just as he has been doing for years. He's utilizing the same fishing methods throughout, and daily clients are daily clients regardless of societal trends in fishing or lack thereof, so something is contributing to WHY so many fewer large walleyes being caught by him and his clients throughout this time frame. I never expected we here would scientifically solve this issue, merely speculate on why it's happening...but to do that we all have to utilize the same unit of measurement and not go off on tangents about other lakes or trends in fishing pressure...because for the sake of this conversation it is based on one guide, a defined time frame, and what's happening in his boat only throughout that time frame. Regardless of what others are doing on Sag he is out there daily with clients catching fish...and his recording of those fish shows a tremendous downward spiral in average numbers of trophy size fish being caught.

So far nobody's blamed bass.. :)
 
2old4U
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07/13/2017 11:48AM  
Maybe, just maybe, as happens to so many good guides, the reason could be that when he goes back to his honey hole where he's used to catching big walleyes it's already occupied by a former unscrupulous client. Makes sense...the longer time goes by the more former clients there could be sitting on his old spots, forcing him to search out new less trophy-productive spots...or abandon Sag altogether and escape to nearby Northern Lite. I bet that's it! Problem solved!
 
07/13/2017 12:02PM  
Maybe, but I would not rule out the impact of non-native spiny water fleas. These tend to out-compete the native zooplankton (the base of the food-chain), and many baitfish won't eat them.

It would be interesting to compare the total walleye biomass of the lake today with that of 10 years ago. Is there a difference, or are there changes to the year-classes?

Climate change won't likely be affecting cold water species like trout and ciscoes in Saganaga for a long time due to the sheer amount of deep water in the lake. A HUGE basin, centered north of the border) drops to over 280 feet...

 
07/13/2017 12:12PM  
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects."


Nope. These are native, freshwater lampreys that have always been there. I've caught fish with them attached on several BWCA lakes--even 30 years ago. These are the two native to the BWCA:

Silver lamprey
Northern brook lamprey
 
mr.barley
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07/13/2017 01:17PM  
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe."
That's right
 
2old4U
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07/13/2017 02:21PM  
quote mr.barley: "
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe."
That's right
"


So what do we do then, keep everything or ban fishing altogether? Those are the only two other alternatives...not that it has anything to do with the op, but being as it keeps coming up we should get to the bottom of it.
 
07/13/2017 03:29PM  
In hot weather walleye mortality is maybe 8% in catch and release. That is 92% better survival than keeping everything.

So many variables in how you fish them,depth etc.
 
07/13/2017 03:33PM  
quote arctic: "
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects."



Nope. These are native, freshwater lampreys that have always been there. I've caught fish with them attached on several BWCA lakes--even 30 years ago. These are the two native to the BWCA:


Silver lamprey
Northern brook lamprey"


Yes, and the one attached to fish is silver lamprey,brook are non parasitic.
I know around Bemidji there is some Chestnut lamprey which are native.

There is a virus or bacteria disease also you see from the disease on northern pike mainly like a 1.5 inch circle all blood red where the disease has eaten the skin away.
 
Jane Hafner
Guest Paddler
  
07/14/2017 12:49AM  
Help! My husband left our #4 Duluth pack on the far east side of Ensign Lake on July 6, 2017 and just realized it tonight. It sounds crazy but he was traveling with 5 teenagers and trying to exit in a storm. We reviewed campsite photos from 7-6-17 and see the pack back behind a tree. Anyone traveling on Ensign and able to check the site for us? We think it is site 1220. We have been taking BWCA trips for 30 years and have never left a pack behind. We are desperate to get it back
Jane Hafner
651-261-0562
Stillwater, MN
 
CityFisher74
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07/14/2017 08:02AM  
quote arctic: "
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects."



Nope. These are native, freshwater lampreys that have always been there. I've caught fish with them attached on several BWCA lakes--even 30 years ago. These are the two native to the BWCA:


Silver lamprey
Northern brook lamprey"



Well that's good to hear! My source was 2 US Forest Service officials who approached us as we came out of ep16 this last Saturday. They asked about unusual spots on any fish and we showed them the photo of our Walleye. Upon seeing the photo, they informed us of the invasive Lamprey that came from the Rainy River into the BWCA (we were on Lac La Croix). I don't have their contact information but hopefully someone informs them they are wrong.
 
07/14/2017 01:18PM  
quote QueticoMike: "I'm waiting to see what Al Gore says about all of this before I make decision on what is going on here :)"


Bravo! A man of true wisdom, QueticoMike that is.
 
07/14/2017 10:03PM  
I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?
 
bruleman
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07/15/2017 11:30AM  
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"
Go to the Minnesota DNR site and look under lake finder, then Sag and stocking report. They go back ten years. Looks like the earliest walleye stocking was in 2009.
 
07/15/2017 11:42AM  
quote bruleman: "
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"
Go to the Minnesota DNR site and look under lake finder, then Sag and stocking report. They go back ten years. Looks like the earliest walleye stocking was in 2009. "


It was like 60 years ago or so the first sag stocking. There was zero walleye in Sag before than.
 
07/15/2017 12:06PM  
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"


I think sometime in the 1930's? So going on 80 years or more. If I remember right Lake trout were over fished in the 20's and 30's so they added the faster growing more prolific walleye.

T
 
07/15/2017 12:36PM  
quote timatkn: "
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"



I think sometime in the 1930's? So going on 80 years or more. If I remember right Lake trout were over fished in the 20's and 30's so they added the faster growing more prolific walleye.


T"


I think your right on the time,I think they just added walleye because Minnesota is addicted to walleye and than it was stock anywhere you could of just about anything. Even carp in southern Minnesota and than it was promoted as a high value angling fish.

I am just wondering like some of the earlier times walleye had a vacuum or slightly open niche and they grew real fast and also the walleye craze on Sag and Sea gull river and the lakes the walleye fishing started in the late 60's and they were catching pre spawn walleyes opening weekend with limit catches of wallye averaging close to 70 pounds. I heard of groups taking over like 200 pounds in a small group of fishermen. Also sometime around 70 or so the road was tarred all the way up(maybe someone else knows the tarring date?)
 
The Great Outdoors
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07/15/2017 12:41PM  
quote Pinetree: "In hot weather walleye mortality is maybe 8% in catch and release. That is 92% better survival than keeping everything.

So many variables in how you fish them,depth etc."

Under perfect conditions, lip hooked, returned to the water immediately without being photographed, usually done by people conducting a survey that work for the DNR.
The average person doing it in warm water conditions, no way near 92% survival.
 
07/15/2017 02:32PM  
quote The Great Outdoors: "
quote Pinetree: "In hot weather walleye mortality is maybe 8% in catch and release. That is 92% better survival than keeping everything.


So many variables in how you fish them,depth etc."

Under perfect conditions, lip hooked, returned to the water immediately without being photographed, usually done by people conducting a survey that work for the DNR.
The average person doing it in warm water conditions, no way near 92% survival."


Probably true especially people that don't have like needle nose pliers etc. handy. Like some people backing a boat in from a access,you end up backing it in for them. They just can't back a trailer in.
 
07/15/2017 02:34PM  
Well I got the first walleye stocking down before the CCC days and Art Nunstead and the Mn Conservation fisheries(not called DNR than) stocking the lake.

old blog
 
07/16/2017 08:48AM  
Like others have said I think most of it has to do with the shift in traffic to NLL. With the lack of eaters on Sag and the tighter and reduced limits it makes sense that the guides would start to favor the option that gives them everything.

My grandfather lived in Grand Marais, him and his friends all fished Sag. Even way back when I never heard anyone say it was easy to fish outside the spawn time.

 
muskiejerk
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07/18/2017 09:24AM  
This is a really interesting topic and I think it shows that our lakes are living and evolve based on conditions.

The DNR changed the regs on this lake in 2015 due to the declining Walleye population and they have also been stocking them. It appears that they are growing slower now than they did before based on the survey information. I guess that would mean that their environment changed (clearer water, fewer bait fish, etc.). I don't think fishing pressure on Walleye would cause that trend but fewer bait fish or disease could.

I think cherry picking this lake and blaming this issue on global warming is premature and excludes the lakes that are thriving right now. Something is going on with Sag in particular as all lakes and environments are dynamic in nature.

MJ
 
07/18/2017 09:44AM  
The slowing of growth rate could be prey food related. Also maximum size could also be related to over fishing and year classes moving thru the system. Sometime natures changes are slow and we expect instant changes to our benefit.

I believe 100% in global warming but that is not the problem at present on Sag at all with its deep water etc.

I have seen like the spawning runs closer to home on the Whitefish chain go thru cycles or year classes of big fish. But yes the number of huge fish is down from the mid 80's on Whitefish lake where I seen fish as big as 37 inches. Reason for disappearance is mainly year class strength and yeas fishing pressure and technology of fishermen is so much better.


Side note: I believe your small Stream trout lakes up the Gunflint because of being semi shallow have some years had too warm of water thus low survival of brook trout especially.
This is a common trend across the state.
 
07/18/2017 11:43PM  
Well I finally cornered my neighbor. His personal experience is there are less big fish, but also he admits some of it is the big fish are moving out to eat Ciscoes since they are doing better than they were 10-15 years ago. They never caught walleyes while fishing lakers in the past but now sometimes half of the fish they catch out in traditional laker waters are now walleyes and they are fat and full of Ciscoes.

My neighbor did say that he felt the catch rate was down but then went on to say they caught 100 walleyes a day this year :)

He did note that many customers no longer report on the Hawg Board and that the owner/guide had his personal best year ever for Hawg fish last year.

Probably doesn't help the conversation except to say the Hawg board isn't very scientific which I know the original poster said as well.

T
 
07/19/2017 12:40AM  
One of my uncles was really big into fishing Sag back in the 80's and has some odd stories of Walleye catches. He's of the opinion that there is an entire population of large fish that stick to the deep parts of the main basin and eat strictly ciscos. He use to fish them with downriggers and would catch them in water as deep as 90ft. Sure seemed like a rather odd place to be fishing for them but he's got the pics. He did say there was high mortality rate and that he wouldn't try it these days with current restrictions.
 
07/19/2017 07:32AM  
Yea my neighbor fishes lakers in spring and even then they had to quite sometimes due to walleye mortality. Caught one walleye on Sag 60 feet down and it was toast---that one was a 17 incher.

T
 
07/19/2017 08:03AM  
quote Ragged: "One of my uncles was really big into fishing Sag back in the 80's and has some odd stories of Walleye catches. He's of the opinion that there is an entire population of large fish that stick to the deep parts of the main basin and eat strictly ciscos. He use to fish them with downriggers and would catch them in water as deep as 90ft. Sure seemed like a rather odd place to be fishing for them but he's got the pics. He did say there was high mortality rate and that he wouldn't try it these days with current restrictions. "


Big fish like bigger prey and if like Timikin mentions you have a year class of cisco which is abundant, than northern pike and walleye will also key in on them.
 
07/19/2017 08:06AM  
quote timatkn: "Yea my neighbor fishes lakers in spring and even then they had to quite sometimes due to walleye mortality. Caught one walleye on Sag 60 feet down and it was toast---that one was a 17 incher.


T"


Yeh the swim bladder etc. will expand quite a bit from that depth.
 
Basspro69
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07/19/2017 08:10AM  
quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php

Did a little count over lunch using Mike Berg's Hawg Board as a unit of measure, and the trend is disturbing, to say the least, of Sag retaining it's notoriety as a world class trophy walleye destination. Rough count...and I might be off one or two here and there...using comparison dates of May 13th.-July 9th...reveals the following:

2002-2007 averaged 126 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28" or over (Pretty impressive!)

2008-2012 the average drops to less than half at just 61 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28"+

2013-2017 the average plummets by over 50% AGAIN to just 21 walleyes 28"+ during the same time frame of 5/13-7/9.

I'm sure there'll always be trophies to be had in Sag, but in what numbers...and why are they disappearing at such an alarming rate? For the record 99.9% of the fish in this comparison were released to be caught again. Lack of natural bait? Fishing pressure? Runoff from major fires? Climate Change? Better fishermen in the good old days? What say you???

"
It can also be a year class issue, sometimes a super class of walleyes from a very good spawning year will dominate the fishery for over a decade sometimes and once they start to die off you will see a definite drop in overall trophy numbers.
 
walleye_hunter
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07/21/2017 08:49PM  
quote marsonite: "What about the spiny water flea? "They" say it's bad for the food chain. Maybe they are a factor?"

I was speaking with a guide that's been fishing Sag for a long time. He blames the spiny water flea. They compete with fry for the same food. In recent years he has been seeing less water fleas on his line and the guides have been catching a lot of undersized (<17") walleyes on Sag the last couple of years. I'm sure it will be a never ending cycle.
 
07/21/2017 09:31PM  
This message has had HTML content edited out of it.
quote walleye_hunter: "
quote marsonite: "What about the spiny water flea? "They" say it's bad for the food chain. Maybe they are a factor?"

I was speaking with a guide that's been fishing Sag for a long time. He blames the spiny water flea. They compete with fry for the same food. In recent years he has been seeing less water fleas on his line and the guides have been catching a lot of undersized (water flea

They also eat daphnia or water flea
 
07/21/2017 09:33PM  
Its also interesting over the years the new players in Sag. Walleyes,smallmouth bass,spiney water flea and I am sure a few more.
Hopefully sometimes like a new introduction like spiney water flea explode in the population than decline to a lesser level.
 
07/21/2017 09:39PM  
Lake Superior is so full of exotics brought in the ballast of ships it is unreal. Eventually many make it inland.
Smelt was one of them. They can be hard on the daphnia also.

Also 2014 DNR survey Sag: Small-mesh gill nets have been used to assess the rainbow smelt population in this lake in most assessments done since 1992. In each of those assessments, the catch of rainbow smelt has declined. The 2014 catch in small-mesh gill nets was the lowest seen to date in this lake, and was well below the normal range for assessments using that gear in the Grand Marais area. No rainbow smelt were collected in standard gill nets. Rainbow smelt abundance probably peaked in Saganaga Lake in the late 1980s or early 1990s, and their effects on fish (and invertebrate) communities may now be declining considerably.
 
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