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mastertangler
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08/01/2017 07:00AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I was once fishing the St Clair river in Michigan about a mile from where it dumps into lake st Clair. The river has cool clear water and rocky banks and is an excellent fishery particularly for walleye and smallies.......not so altogether different than what we find in canoe country.

Anyway, I will never forget what an old river rat once told me (you could tell he knew the river and fished out of an old tin boat, typical for many of the locals).

"Just use a small black and gold countdown rapala tipped with a leech if you want walleye, just cast it next to the rocks and work it down".

I never did try what the kindly old gent suggested but I never forgot it either. Seems like it would work wonders in the BWCA.

I would make one significant modification. I would ditch the trebles entirely and replace with a single size 1/0 Trokar siwash style salmon hook. Or, if you prefer trebles then ditch the belly hook and replace the end hook with a mustard triple grip in size 4 (the same hook replacement you should use with swapping out any snap jigs wether moonshine shiver or rapala jigging).

And of course, sounding like a broken record once again, I wii suggest you make the connection to your mono via a fas-snap. A black medium fas-snap will allow you to transition very nicely to 6lb or even 4lb (seems like the rig would take Brookies as well). This presentation is a finesse presentation and light line would be key IMO. Besides, Count Downs don't have much action to begin with and tying direct only limits it even more. If you insist on tying direct with 6lb test you might get away with it using a Gryp knot and a tie fast tool which excels in tying mono to diameters thicker than itself > unique in the world of mono fishing knots. Otherwise use at least 8lb XL.

Tip the countdown with a leech and fish much like a jig. Seems like it would be a bang-em set up.
 
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Savage Voyageur
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08/01/2017 08:31AM  
This lure was designed to be used with a Rapala knot in the front of the lure. It gives you about a one inch loop. This loop allows the lure to move correctly in the water, like a injured minnow. Using a fast snap is a good way to make a fast change but they do affect the action.

I would think replacing the trebles with single hooks would not affect the action too much but not needed in my opinion. My objective is to get fish in the boat and more hooks accomplish this better. Yes, you can be hooked in the hand or landing net with treble hooks. For me a Rapala with 9 trebles in a net is a 1/2 hour nightmare to untangle. That's why I use a fish grip mostly and not a net.

As far as using a leech on the tip, no way on a treble hook because they would wrap around the hooks in a ball. Tipping would work on your single hook just fine but again it would affect the wobble. How much action would be lost I can't comment.

As an experiment I would like to replace the rear trebles only with a single and tip it with a leech. Then I could see the action of the lure and the bait together. The temptation of a Rapala and a Leech might be too much for fish not to hit it.
 
08/01/2017 10:04AM  
the CD's i've recently purchased have came with a split ring to tie too and also added them to my older models , which i feel gives it that movement without doing the loop knot. definitely 1 of my go to lures in the spring.
 
mastertangler
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08/01/2017 12:38PM  
What's the old saying? You can lead a horse to water etc. etc.

Loop knots are inherently weaker than other knots and thus you would have to increase your lb test. I use the perfection loop but only with heavier fluorocarbon and in salt water.

As per using a split ring again a mistake while using light line. The double thickness of wire creates an oval tie off.......no good! Mono or fluorocarbon likes to tie to like diameters, the laws of physics cannot be ignored. Tie light line to split rings and you will pay the price. To the wise I strongly suggest the adding of a fas-snap. This extremely discreet clip will transition your connection point and you will achieve 100% knot strength all while making a free swinging presentation.

SV rightly points out that there may be some entanglement issues concerning the leech and treble. Perhaps, but I would be interested to find out how often it would happen. In any event I would probably go with the single style salmon hook anyway. They come in small sizes and you end up ditching the split ring and slide the hook on (they come gapped at the eye) and clamp shut. Get rid of the belly hook as it is not needed and only contributes to getting hung.

Not so sure how much "action" one would really want or need with this rig and I see using it much like a jig but could be cast and retrieved rather well I would think.
 
QueticoMike
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08/01/2017 01:16PM  
Wouldn't it be easier to just drop a plain hook, split shot and leech down to a walleye?
 
08/01/2017 01:40PM  
i guess the laws of physics do not apply to me ;) my count downs run true and they run hot ;) how big of a split ring do you think i use, yes a person needs to be concerned not to try into the split , thus the split is at the contact point to the lure itself. i get the wiggle of the rapala and a super strong knot , never has been an issue and they produce.
 
mastertangler
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08/01/2017 05:04PM  
Shock you I know I like you and your posts ;-) Same with SV for that matter.

The laws of physics apply to everyone, well mostly (there is the supernatural power of God where physics doesent apply ;-)

You throw your CD on heavier line than what I am talking about correct? Your not tying your CD or other crank bait via a split ring with 6lb line are you?

What I am trying to get across is yes you can fish lures that most folk would throw on 8 or 10 lb test and use line as light as 4lb test and still have a supremely solid connection. Go ahead, try and tie 6lb test to a split ring and I will use a fas-snap. Want to put money on whose knot breaks first? Or we can make it a bit more friendly........winner buys dinner ;-)

Mike expand the mind a bit. Don't you ever want to try new things? I have ALWAYS been about trying new things in fishing.......new places, new lures, new baits, new ways of doing things. Sure you can just use a plain hook, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see this little rig out fish it in many instances and I have never even tried it. I can picture it in my mind.......small black and gold CD with a leech.......cast it out and ease it in along the bottom with just a single stout little hook. The old man stated it as fact, "if you want walleye..........." He seemed to know what he was talking about.

Maybe somebody will try it........alas, I fish the Quetico so I probably won't get the chance.
 
08/01/2017 05:24PM  
i almost always run them with #8 triline . when it comes lures in general i rarely go under #8, unless its for brookies.
conversations like this is 1 of many reason why i love this site , many different takes and applications and opinions ;)
i also removed all the factory hooks on my cd9 and replace them with gamakatsu hooks. just never liked the factory trebles on these ,
 
mastertangler
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08/01/2017 07:08PM  
Shock the old codger was talking about using the smallest black and gold Count Down that rapala makes........pretty small package and that's what makes me think that 6lb would be the way to go. Lighter line makes the small baits "come alive" plus you could cast it a good distance with 6.

I bet it would take smallies as well. By George I need to try this out. It has been stewing in the back of my mind for 25 years LOL.

When conditions get tough you can drop to 6lb and use lures like Shad Raps and even hard pulling baits like Taildancers if you ditch the split ring. ALL of my walleye crank baits are equipped with Fas-snaps and while 8lb is also my preferred trolling line if the water is super clear I can drop to 6 with full confidence of 100% knot integrity. Mr Big can be beat in canoe country if everything is right.......yes the margin for error is slimmer but in the open water of canoe country it isn't that hard, it just takes a little longer. Better to have gotten bitten and lost than to have not gotten bitten at all.
 
08/01/2017 07:52PM  
i get that , #6 magnathin would fit , (what i usually use in brookie lakes). i was sharing what CD9 has worked good for me for walleyes.
 
carmike
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08/01/2017 09:22PM  
My grandpa has been putting leeches and nightcrawlers on crankbaits for as long as I can remember. For casting, leeches are better because they stay on the hook; for trolling, we've always had better luck with crawlers. I don't do it in the BWCA or Q because I can't be bothered with live bait, but fish are fish and Canadian fish are especially dumb, so I'm sure it would work.

Re: line strength -- You must fish much, much pickier fish than I do, MT. Of all the variables that affect catch rates in canoe country, I'd put line diameter very, very low on the list of importance. Just my .02.
 
mastertangler
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08/02/2017 07:10AM  
quote carmike:


Re: line strength -- You must fish much, much pickier fish than I do, MT. Of all the variables that affect catch rates in canoe country, I'd put line diameter very, very low on the list of importance. Just my .02. "


You are probably right carmike. This was shown to me on my trip with Kingfisher who used fire line in combination with Knot-2-kinky wire leader (howbeit in a very thin diameter) and generally speaking out fished me.

Having said that I firmly believe that larger fish are WAY more particular than smaller fish. I have seen it time and again. In the Dry Tortugas, some 60 miles offshore where fishing pressure is very light, the big fish are not easily fooled. If that were the case I would not be high hook by a wide margin almost every time out.

So I get that canoe country fish may be easier to catch........but big fish are big fish and they get fussier about everything as they age........from what they eat, to where they eat, to what time they eat. They get conditioned due to repetitive patterns. I fish for big fish (you still catch plenty of smaller ones) and like options. If I am going to try and troll up a big walleye in the clear waters of Sarah or Knife you can bet I will be running 6lb test.

 
walleye_hunter
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08/02/2017 08:42AM  
Carmike- Line diameter can make a significant difference in clear water for certain species of fish; walleyes, stealhead, and brown trout come to mind. Even in places that get very little fishing pressure. It's definitely something worth experimenting with.
 
carmike
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08/02/2017 09:57PM  
Sure, line diameter *can* make a significant difference. I didn't say it didn't.

But I simply do not believe that the difference between 6 lb and 8 or 10 lb is all that significant a factor, relative to the many other things that matter when trying to catch fish in the BWCA and Q.
 
08/02/2017 10:37PM  
quote carmike: "Sure, line diameter *can* make a significant difference. I didn't say it didn't.


But I simply do not believe that the difference between 6 lb and 8 or 10 lb is all that significant a factor, relative to the many other things that matter when trying to catch fish in the BWCA and Q.
"
i do agree with that to a point , how big is a fish's brain ? on the flip side older wiley fish may know the difference like a mature buck "? but the difference is in the presentation , and if anyone has been paying attention W-H does have it going on , some times suttle differences is the difference . but i will add this your not going to out fish my CD9 with a leech on opener in minnesota , because you cant find leeches , its always been about the right application at the right time of the year.
 
08/03/2017 08:22AM  
As far as tipping with a leech in Quetico; you might try Slimer leeches. I have never tipped a crank bait with them (just an inline spinner with decent results). I DO like them behind a sinker in light current. They are flimsy. This has been in May/June when 'catching' is easier IMO.
 
bigeyedfish
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08/03/2017 08:42AM  
quote mastertangler: "I was once fishing the St Clair river in Michigan about a mile from where it dumps into lake st Clair. The river has cool clear water and rocky banks and is an excellent fishery particularly for walleye and smallies.......not so altogether different than what we find in canoe country.

Anyway, I will never forget what an old river rat once told me (you could tell he knew the river and fished out of an old tin boat, typical for many of the locals).

"Just use a small black and gold countdown rapala tipped with a leech if you want walleye, just cast it next to the rocks and work it down".

I never did try what the kindly old gent suggested but I never forgot it either. Seems like it would work wonders in the BWCA.

I would make one significant modification. I would ditch the trebles entirely and replace with a single size 1/0 Trokar siwash style salmon hook. Or, if you prefer trebles then ditch the belly hook and replace the end hook with a mustard triple grip in size 4 (the same hook replacement you should use with swapping out any snap jigs wether moonshine shiver or rapala jigging).

And of course, sounding like a broken record once again, I wii suggest you make the connection to your mono via a fas-snap. A black medium fas-snap will allow you to transition very nicely to 6lb or even 4lb (seems like the rig would take Brookies as well). This presentation is a finesse presentation and light line would be key IMO. Besides, Count Downs don't have much action to begin with and tying direct only limits it even more. If you insist on tying direct with 6lb test you might get away with it using a Gryp knot and a tie fast tool which excels in tying mono to diameters thicker than itself > unique in the world of mono fishing knots. Otherwise use at least 8lb XL.

Tip the countdown with a leech and fish much like a jig. Seems like it would be a bang-em set up. "


Nice tip MT, and thanks for sharing. Hard to believe you have kept this knowledge for so long and never tried it! Sounds good to me!
 
mastertangler
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08/03/2017 01:51PM  
I know right! The problem around St. Clair is leeches are sold by the dozen, not the pound, and they are expensive. Last time I looked they were like $3.99 per dozen which I thought was sort of ridiculous. Especially so since every Little Rock bass, perch etc. will gobble them up with gusto. And now I can't even try it in the Quetico......rats!

Somebody will make use of it.
 
carmike
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08/04/2017 12:46AM  
I do think your point, shock, about lure action is a good one. No doubt lighter lines get a different jiggle out of a lure, and no doubt that can catch more fish sometimes. But I'm not sure there aren't also times where a heavier line and a corresponding decrease in jiggle doesn't also help. I got outfished my last trip to the Q by a guy running the same lure as me, the same distance out, only he was using a steel leader and very heavy braid. Was it the increased line diameter and visibility that helped him, or some other factor? Who knows... not me, that's for sure.

 
carmike
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08/04/2017 12:46AM  
I do think your point, shock, about lure action is a good one. No doubt lighter lines get a different jiggle out of a lure, and no doubt that can catch more fish sometimes. But I'm not sure there aren't also times where a heavier line and a corresponding decrease in jiggle doesn't also help. I got outfished my last trip to the Q by a guy running the same lure as me, the same distance out, only he was using a steel leader and very heavy braid. Was it the increased line diameter and visibility that helped him, or some other factor? Who knows... not me, that's for sure.

 
mastertangler
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08/04/2017 04:55PM  
I read your post about getting out fished by wire and heavy braid carmike.

It is entirely possible that the difference was water depth and not "jiggle". If you were using lighter (thinner) diameter material, wether braid or mono, then you were probably fishing deeper than your pal. If you were fishing below the fish it is hard to get bit as fish generally look up for their dinner.

I have experienced that exact scenario. My partner fishing shallower than I was and doing better. It had been a cool summer and fish were not in their customary 30 ft during that particular August.
 
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