BWCA What constitutes "entry"? Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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bottomtothetap
distinguished member(1021)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
08/01/2017 07:42PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
So on our recent trip, we get out to the LIS entry--#14 and I realize I don't have the maps! After more than two-dozen trips HOW do I forget the maps?????!!!
Well, I did (actually I didn't--but that's another story and not the only "glitch on this trip--see the lost and found about my cameras) This means back to Ely to get the maps while the rest of the guys wait at the entry for a couple hours for me to get back. In the mean time they did take their time in getting most of the gear from the parking lot to down near the river.

When I return, they described that they were glad that I left with one of them the tear-off stub you get from your permit with multiple canoes. They said a ranger came by and asked to see our group's permit. They showed him the stub and explained that I had the main permit but had gone back to town to retrieve the maps. They also said this ranger(Not sure if it was USFS, DNR or who) cited another party since the canoe they had did not have a current license.

I'm wondering why if we had not left yet and had not "entered" the wilderness did our party have to show its permit. Or, if somehow we had officially entered, did my going back to Ely and returning to the entry #14 constitute illegal exit and re-entry? The guys didn't say that the ranger was worried about me and that he seemed fine with their explanation of where I was.

Furthermore, if the non-licensed canoe was still on dry land (which it was) why did the license issue matter?

Also, aren't BWCA entry permits and canoe licenses two different jurisdictions? All seems quite confusing?

What does constitute "entry"? What rules apply?
 
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mhart
member (38)member
  
08/01/2017 08:56PM  
A couple of years ago we were on our way the the Baker Lake EP and a MN Conservation Office pulled over my friends vehicle in front of us. The CO said he pulled him over because he saw his canoe was not registered. My friend is from WI and did not know about the MN watercraft registration laws. He ordered my friend to turn around right there and to go back into Tofte to get it registered or he was going to ticket him. We managed to talk the CO into letting us proceed to the EP so we could get unpacked and ready for the trip while my friend went back to get his canoe registered. The canoe was on top of his truck when he was pulled over. Guessing if a watercraft is within the MN state boundary and is intended to be used within MN it has to be registered?
 
mhart
member (38)member
  
08/01/2017 09:09PM  
Sorry I was responding to the comment about the CO who cited another party for not having the canoe registered and about the non-licensed canoe on dry land. Guessing since it appeared you were intending to enter the BWCA that could be taken as intent? Therefore the CO would have probable cause to ask for your canoe registration/BWCA permit??
 
08/01/2017 09:26PM  
To me, entry is when you cross "the line".....water or not. Depending on which maps you look at, "the line" looks like it starts mid portage on LIS. So, if you are waiting down by the water, you have technically entered......even though you are not in the water. I would think there would be some leeway at an entry due to double portaging across "the line" and back to get your gear in, but as was said, it looked like their intent was to fully enter so a permit check seemed appropriate. The canoe registration is simple......if your canoe is in Minnesota, it needs to be registered......in or out of water. This rule seems to have been recently changed for non-residents from states with no required registration.
 
riverrunner
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08/02/2017 06:47AM  
If you haven't crossed the line you have not enter and do not need a permit.

That is my standard answer.

I haven't ran into the problem in the BWCA but I been asked for my wilderness permit out west out side various wilderness areas.

I just say I am not in the wilderness.

Once you cross the line you need a permit.

Kind of like speeding you can do 55 all day your not speeding do 56 your speeding.
 
riverrunner
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08/02/2017 06:55AM  
quote cowdoc: ". The canoe registration is simple......if your canoe is in Minnesota, it needs to be registered......in or out of water. This rule seems to have been recently changed for non-residents from states with no required registration."


That would be interesting so if traveling through MN to ND and do not have my canoe register I can get a citation.

Or a MN resident that hasn't had his boat in the water for years parked along the garage could get a non registration citation.

Could you please give the citation in the that says so.

If so MN really has become the state that allows nothing.
 
billconner
distinguished member(8608)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
08/02/2017 07:35AM  
To the ok, MN DNR vs USFS is interesting. I know the DNR is the main canoe registration agency, because i have called them with questions. I dont know if USFS enforces that. The MN EPA rules same - does USFS enforce no burning trash? It would be interesting to know what the agreements are. All I'm fairly sure of is that immigration and rangers don't enforce the others regulations in US or Canada.

I don't think it unusual if you are carrying gear and canoes to the water in BWCA that even if you hadn't crossed the line, they ask for permits. I suppose if you refuse, and had not entered, you'd have a successful defense, but forget your trip.
 
08/02/2017 08:39AM  
The way I see it, the guy was just trying to do his job in following the spirit of the law. Entered or not it was clear what your plan was, and the whole "the guy who went back to town has all our paperwork that makes us legal" part is a pretty big red flag for officers unless you are clearly just sitting around and waiting for someone. They just want to check you and be on their way. If your whole group was there and just said the guy with the permit was not there at the moment, but didn't have any trace of paperwork, you can bet that he would have stuck around made sure. Or if he thought you were lying about it then he could have potentially given you a ticket if you had even one foot in the BWCA.

Some people follow the letter of the law and some follow the spirit of it. If you got checked before entering then he was following the spirit of it, but I'm sure he could have found a way to screw you over if you outright lied to him. Those kinds of guys are usually happy to allow you to self issue a day permit to make you legal, except for when you lie to them or waste their time. The guy that follows the letter of the law is the one that I am more concerned about. They will be more likely to follow you around and wait for you to either make one mistake or see just how much you will incriminate yourself before saying or doing anything about it. I'd rather have the guy warn me against doing something illegal than have him wait until he is able to issue a ticket.
 
08/02/2017 08:53AM  
quote riverrunner: "
quote cowdoc: ". The canoe registration is simple......if your canoe is in Minnesota, it needs to be registered......in or out of water. This rule seems to have been recently changed for non-residents from states with no required registration."



That would be interesting so if traveling through MN to ND and do not have my canoe register I can get a citation.

Or a MN resident that hasn't had his boat in the water for years parked along the garage could get a non registration citation.


Could you please give the citation in the that says so.

If so MN really has become the state that allows nothing.
"


Travelling through you're fine. Don't make me quote the exact wording......cuz I don't care. Bottom line, if you take a canoe to MN with intent to paddle it at sometime, it's suppose to be registered. Again, looks like they changed this recently which is good for us Wi residents
 
bottomtothetap
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08/02/2017 10:56AM  
quote A1t2o: "The way I see it, the guy was just trying to do his job in following the spirit of the law. Entered or not it was clear what your plan was, and the whole "the guy who went back to town has all our paperwork that makes us legal" part is a pretty big red flag for officers unless you are clearly just sitting around and waiting for someone. They just want to check you and be on their way. If your whole group was there and just said the guy with the permit was not there at the moment, but didn't have any trace of paperwork, you can bet that he would have stuck around made sure. Or if he thought you were lying about it then he could have potentially given you a ticket if you had even one foot in the BWCA.


"


To be clear, I am not offended that a check was made and understand that the person was just trying to do their job. We had nothing to hide, did not lie about anything and had no reason to. We DID have the proper permit (the tear off stub, which is exactly for these situations--when part of the group is separated from the main permit holder) and the guys were able to produce it upon request. While being checked on previous trips, I had never experienced it in this way before--before actually starting the trip--and was curious on what protocol or guidelines are followed by officials. I wanted to get a better grip on if what we had done constituted "entry", that my return to Ely for supplies did not also define an illegal exit and re-entry.

Was also curious about what seemed to be two different jurisdictions: their canoe (MN DNR?) and our permit (USFS?).

I was pretty sure I'd get a good deal of feedback and that's why I posted. These types of questions usually spark lively discussion. Would be really cool if someone in authority sees this and responds with "official" interpretations.

As a result of the OP, I am learning that in MN wherever you are or whatever you are doing with your watercraft, on the water or not, it better be licensed!
 
fsupp
distinguished member (132)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
08/02/2017 02:02PM  
bottomtothetap: Was also curious about what seemed to be two different jurisdictions: their canoe (MN DNR?) and our permit (USFS?).

####

The State of MN and the federal government both exercise jurisdiction over the BWCA. The Act creating the BWCA wilderness in 1978 (quoted at length below) states that it does not affect the State's jurisdiction over the waters, fish, and wildlife within the wilderness, and it also authorizes cooperation agreements between the State and the federal government concerning the enforcement of federal and state regulations. In addition, under the assimilated crimes act, 18 U.S.C.A. § 13, the federal government can enforce state criminal laws in areas within federal jurisdiction, such as the BWCA. I hope that responds to your question.

JURISDICTION OVER FISH AND WILDLIFE
SEC. 14. Nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the State with respect to fish and wildlife in the wilderness and the mining protection area.
JURISDICTION OVER WATERS
SEC. 15. The Secretary [of Agriculture, ed.] is authorized to promulgate and enforce regulations that limit or prohibit the use of motorized equipment on or relating to waters located within the wilderness in accordance with the provisions of this Act: Provided, That nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the State with respect to such waters except to the extent that the exercise of such jurisdiction is less stringent than the Secretary’s regulations promulgated pursuant to this section: Provided further, That any regulations adopted pursuant to this Act shall be complementary to, and not in derogation of regulations issued by the United States Coast Guard.
The Secretary is authorized to enter into cooperative agreements with the State of Minnesota with respect to enforcement of Federal and State regulations affecting the wilderness and the mining protection area.
COOPERATION WITH STATE
SEC. 16. (a) The Secretary shall cooperate with the State of Minnesota and any political subdivision thereof in the administration of the mining protection area and in the administration and protection of lands within or adjacent to the mining protection area owned or controlled by the State or any political subdivision thereof. Nothing in this title shall deprive the State of Minnesota or any political subdivision thereof of its right to exercise civil and criminal jurisdiction within the wilderness and the mining protection area and impose land use controls and environmental health standards on non–Federal areas within the wilderness and the mining protection area, or of its right to tax persons, corporations, franchises, or other non–Federal property, including mineral or other interests, in or on lands or waters within the wilderness and the mining protection area.
 
bottomtothetap
distinguished member(1021)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
08/02/2017 03:29PM  
quote fsupp: " bottomtothetap: Was also curious about what seemed to be two different jurisdictions: their canoe (MN DNR?) and our permit (USFS?).

####

The State of MN and the federal government both exercise jurisdiction over the BWCA. The Act creating the BWCA wilderness in 1978 (quoted at length below) states that it does not affect the State's jurisdiction over the waters, fish, and wildlife within the wilderness, and it also authorizes cooperation agreements between the State and the federal government concerning the enforcement of federal and state regulations. In addition, under the assimilated crimes act, 18 U.S.C.A. § 13, the federal government can enforce state criminal laws in areas within federal jurisdiction, such as the BWCA. I hope that responds to your question.


JURISDICTION OVER FISH AND WILDLIFE
SEC. 14. Nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the State with respect to fish and wildlife in the wilderness and the mining protection area.
JURISDICTION OVER WATERS
SEC. 15. The Secretary [of Agriculture, ed.] is authorized to promulgate and enforce regulations that limit or prohibit the use of motorized equipment on or relating to waters located within the wilderness in accordance with the provisions of this Act: Provided, That nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the State with respect to such waters except to the extent that the exercise of such jurisdiction is less stringent than the Secretary’s regulations promulgated pursuant to this section: Provided further, That any regulations adopted pursuant to this Act shall be complementary to, and not in derogation of regulations issued by the United States Coast Guard.
The Secretary is authorized to enter into cooperative agreements with the State of Minnesota with respect to enforcement of Federal and State regulations affecting the wilderness and the mining protection area.
COOPERATION WITH STATE
SEC. 16. (a) The Secretary shall cooperate with the State of Minnesota and any political subdivision thereof in the administration of the mining protection area and in the administration and protection of lands within or adjacent to the mining protection area owned or controlled by the State or any political subdivision thereof. Nothing in this title shall deprive the State of Minnesota or any political subdivision thereof of its right to exercise civil and criminal jurisdiction within the wilderness and the mining protection area and impose land use controls and environmental health standards on non–Federal areas within the wilderness and the mining protection area, or of its right to tax persons, corporations, franchises, or other non–Federal property, including mineral or other interests, in or on lands or waters within the wilderness and the mining protection area.
"


Thanks! very specific and informative.
 
fsupp
distinguished member (132)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
08/02/2017 04:27PM  
You're welcome!
 
fsupp
distinguished member (132)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
08/02/2017 04:39PM  
Here's all I could find about the issue of having expired registration stickers. Maybe the display of a decal that isn't "current" is viewed as the violation. Though that would seem a stretch if the boat isn't in the water or if it's, say, hanging in your garage.

Minnesota Rules, part 6110.0600
6110.0600 EXPIRED VALIDATION DECAL.
All expired or otherwise invalid state validation decals shall be removed from the watercraft for which they were issued or completely covered by placement of the current decal so that only the current decal is visible.

6110.0400 MARKING OF NONMOTORIZED CANOES, KAYAKS, PADDLE BOARDS, PADDLE BOATS, AND ROWING SHELLS.
All nonmotorized canoes, kayaks, paddle boards, paddle boats, and rowing shells shall display decals furnished by the Department of Natural Resources for such watercraft. These decals shall be securely affixed on each side of the forward half of the watercraft for which the decal was issued, in such a position as to provide clear and legible identification. If it is impossible to display the decals on the forward half of the paddle board so as to provide clear and legible identification, both decals must then be affixed to the stern of the paddle board.
 
Rustycards
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08/02/2017 09:20PM  
Here's just my opinion. If you're at an entry point with a canoe, you're prolly going to use the canoe. Especially if it is off the vehicle. If you had one off the vehicle without a license and got a ticket and fought it, you would loose. Judge would side with the officer. Every DNR officer I have ever came across was reasonable and fair. I know there are some out there that are not but I've never came across one. Sounds like this guy checked you and moved on. Sounds fair to me. As to the question about crossing the entry line, I think that's in the boats paddling. I would think most DNR officers would agree. If you unload everything and don't have maps, very few officers would say "sorry, you have to go without the maps!" Again, just my opinion.
 
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