Got this today in our email:
**************************************************
Received via email September 15, 2017

Dear Interested Parties,
You are receiving this letter because an application was submitted in your name for the 2017 BWCAW Permit Lottery. We are writing to inform you that the Superior National Forest will be charging a fee for all permit applications for the 2018 quota permit season and eliminating the lottery immediately after the 2018 quota permit season ends.

The FS has determined it was being charged a fee for every application submitted. Successful applicants who received a permit paid this fee however, the FS paid the fees owed by the unsuccessful applicants. The FS has determined that paying the fees of unsuccessful applications is not in the public’s best interest and does not follow policy. As a result, during the 2018 season all applicants, successful and unsuccessful alike, will be charged the $4 fee incurred when applying for a lottery permit.

In addition, with the current reservation system, the FS has determined that the lottery is no longer necessary. Previously, lottery applicants were not notified of their success until sometime after the submission period between December 1 and January 15. As a result, applicants put in multiple requests for the same, specific locations and dates in an effort to increase their likelihood of obtaining a reservation. This created the perception of a shortage of permits for certain wilderness entry points. The current permit reservation system enables real time reservations for specific entry points and dates, on a first come, first serviced basis. It allows users to determine instantly whether they are successful and eliminates the need to submit multiple applications for entry points in an attempt to “win” a permit.

As a result, the FS will discontinue the BWCA permit lotter for day use motor, overnight motor & overnight paddle after the 2018 season closes. This change will affect the following entry points:
** Day use motor entry points Fall Lake, Newton, Pipestone & beyond – D
** Day use motor entry permits for Moose Lake to Newfound and Sucker Lakes – F
** Moose Lake to Prairie Portage to Basswood – G

** Overnight paddle & motor entry points Fall Lake - #24 & Moose Lake - #25

Eliminating the lottery will create a reservation system that is less complicated, consistent, fair & will remove the need for a separate process for submitting lottery applications at the start of a season. This reservation method will also better serve those who want to make a reservation.

If you have any questions about making reservations without the lottery, contact Carl Skustad at (218) 349-8907 or Ann Schwaller at (218) 626-4325.

this is a good idea. not sure how it will affect your business or others on the Ely side. i guess we'll see what happens this coming spring.

Thanks for your always informative info you supply.

quote Mocha: "this is a good idea. not sure how it will affect your business or others on the Ely side. i guess we'll see what happens this coming spring."

Not sure about people who deal more with motorized trips & resorts.

We usually submitted a lot of "pre-season" day use & some overnight permit reservations, for local customers, as soon as the lottery reservation system opened up. (by local, I mean not only Ely but within a 200 mile or more radius of Ely).

With as many reserved customer trips needing paddle permits to be reserved on Day One of the live reservation day in late January, we might not have time to get to the day use reservations. Have to be realistic , we get permits for customers who have reserved canoe trips already first.

I guess we'll have to report back after 2018, eh?

I applied for permits in 2017 and I didn't receive an e mail..

So does this mean no lottery for next summer's permits..?

Also does this mean, say I apply for a overnight motor basswood permit, I'd better be on line 12:01am on the day phone or on line reservations open up.?

I can imagine that running the lottery for a small number of EPs was inefficient. However, it was maintained because of comments from businesses that relied on the lottery to get permits. I think this will be hard on people who guide day use motor boat fishing, which includes some of my friends. Who, in turn, are providing a service that attracts people who come spend money in town and on lodging. I imagine they will have a very busy time trying to pin down permits when things open up, once the lottery is gone.

How would this hurt the business's? I thought every one had the same chance in the lottery. Did the business's have a leg up on an individual. ?

quote yogi59weedr: "I applied for permits in 2017 and I didn't receive an e mail..


So does this mean no lottery for next summer's permits..?


Also does this mean, say I apply for a overnight motor basswood permit, I'd better be on line 12:01am on the day phone or on line reservations open up.?"

I think it means that there will be a lottery for 2018 (this coming year) but no lottery for the following year 2019 to help people prepare for the change.

Yes, it will be a free for all when the reservation window opens up. I think it's usually 9:00am.

Try to get a reservation for one of the group camps at Fall Lake CG...That is tough.
dr bob

quote ducks: "

quote yogi59weedr: "I applied for permits in 2017 and I didn't receive an e mail..

So does this mean no lottery for next summer's permits..?

Also does this mean, say I apply for a overnight motor basswood permit, I'd better be on line 12:01am on the day phone or on line reservations open up.?"

I think it means that there will be a lottery for 2018 (this coming year) but no lottery for the following year 2019 to help people prepare for the change.

Yes, it will be a free for all when the reservation window opens up. I think it's usually 9:00am."

I would imagine that within the first couple hours of the "live online" & phone reservations that it will be a "free for all" especially for those people trying to get day use motor & even overnight motor permits! It will give some different people more opportunity to get permits with the "only live" in 2019 but I still think that most of the day use permits and all of the overnight motor permits will be gone in a maximum of 1-2 days.

I'm thinking a couple hours. I'll have to brush up on my speed typing

quote VoyageurNorth: "

quote ducks: "

quote yogi59weedr: "I applied for permits in 2017 and I didn't receive an e mail..


So does this mean no lottery for next summer's permits..?


Also does this mean, say I apply for a overnight motor basswood permit, I'd better be on line 12:01am on the day phone or on line reservations open up.?"

I think it means that there will be a lottery for 2018 (this coming year) but no lottery for the following year 2019 to help people prepare for the change.


Yes, it will be a free for all when the reservation window opens up. I think it's usually 9:00am."

I would imagine that within the first couple hours of the "live online" & phone reservations that it will be a "free for all" especially for those people trying to get day use motor & even overnight motor permits! It will give some different people more opportunity to get permits with the "only live" in 2019 but I still think that most of the day use permits and all of the overnight motor permits will be gone in a maximum of 1-2 days. "

Probably should have a limit of 1- 2 permits at a time. Not for the season, but at a time. That and paying the entire permit cost, not just a deposit, will keep people from hogging all the permits, or just making a bunch of reservations that they will probably cancel as they firm up plans.

I agree limit the # of permits per order...I have applied for 5 day use motor permits at once on the phone.
Another time the lady said I couldn't apply for that many at a time.
I believe the call center was located in Maine.
They had no idea of the rules. As I do not...


I agree people put in extra permits and then cancel what they don't need... I like the real time idea.

quote yogi59weedr: "I agree limit the # of permits per order...I have applied for 5 day use motor permits at once on the phone.
Another time the lady said I couldn't apply for that many at a time.
I believe the call center was located in Maine.
They had no idea of the rules. As I do not...



I agree people put in extra permits and then cancel what they don't need... I like the real time idea."

Moose lake Motor permits overnight had the highest number of unused permits of the BWCA entry points in recent years.

When does the reservation for permits start in january this year?

quote yogi59weedr: "How would this hurt the business's? I thought every one had the same chance in the lottery. Did the business's have a leg up on an individual. ?"

They didn't have a leg up but the more relaxed pace of the lottery submissions allowed them to enter the lottery for multiple permits and then find customers for the ones they got. If it is a hectic blast to get things on the day things open, then it may be hard for people who get multiple permits for their business. I'm not sure whether it is guides or private parties who were not using their day use motor permits but the guides I know are very responsible about seeking clients for their chances they have. And without clients, they just go fishing!

In both systems, everyone gets treated the same but they will wind up with different distributions of permits. Without a lottery more individuals may get permits but I think some guides will have reduced incomes and there will be fewer opportunities for people who make reservations at a resort later in the year to find a guided trip that can take them into the BW.

Overall, I sense a lot of frustration with how the day use motor permits are handled and I hope that the FS keeps working on this issue to make sure these permits are equitably handled and get used.

" Quoted from above: They didn't have a leg up but the more relaxed pace of the lottery submissions allowed them to enter the lottery for multiple permits and then find customers for the ones they got. If it is a hectic blast to get things on the day things open, then it may be hard for people who get multiple permits for their business. I'm not sure whether it is guides or private parties who were not using their day use motor permits but the guides I know are very responsible about seeking clients for their chances they have. And without clients, they just go fishing!

In both systems, everyone gets treated the same but they will wind up with different distributions of permits. Without a lottery more individuals may get permits but I think some guides will have reduced incomes and there will be fewer opportunities for people who make reservations at a resort later in the year to find a guided trip that can take them into the BW.

Overall, I sense a lot of frustration with how the day use motor permits are handled and I hope that the FS keeps working on this issue to make sure these permits are equitably handled and get used. "end of quote from above" (messed it up at first, sorry, had to edit because I didn't type all of the above).

Just want to say that above is more about the day use motors where guides are concerned. They are the ones that can "find" a customer to fit because they are the person named on the permit.

We & other outfitters can't buy permits and then use them for customers that we find, they have to be for specifically for each customer.

quote LuvMyBell: "Probably should have a limit of 1- 2 permits at a time..."

Not that it clears things up perfectly, but I found this on support.recreation.gov:
"An unlimited number of reservations are permitted during a single call for different dates and different facilities under the same name.
Customers may only have 4 reservations using the same name with the same arrival date and the same facility.
Note: Customers making multiple reservations for the same campground and arrival date must have a unique primary occupant for each site."

My 2 cents: Four BWCAW permit reservations for the same date all in my name? No.

quote drnatus: "When does the reservation for permits start in january this year?
"

Since 2012, it's been the last Wednesday in January at 9:00 am CST. So, my best guess is Jan 31 2018.

Lynn, I won't even try quoting but I completely agree the guides using motor permits are a different issue than outfitters setting up trips for clients.

A bit of new-ish info from the FS meeting today (daughter Amber went to meeting).

I guess the west side here out of Ely is the only one that has the motor (overnight & day use) lottery, plus the paddle lottery for the same two entries of Moose & Fall.

The rate may go up more than $4.00 for unsuccessful lottery applications after 2018 or they may decide to cancel the lottery altogether.

The people who went to the meeting gave opinions & suggestions, so it seems like nothing is completely set in stone yet.

If I find out any other info, I'll keep you all posted.

quote VoyageurNorth: "A bit of new-ish info from the FS meeting today (daughter Amber went to meeting).


I guess the west side here out of Ely is the only one that has the motor (overnight & day use) lottery, plus the paddle lottery for the same two entries of Moose & Fall.


The rate may go up more than $4.00 for unsuccessful lottery applications after 2018 or they may decide to cancel the lottery altogether.


The people who went to the meeting gave opinions & suggestions, so it seems like nothing is completely set in stone yet.


If I find out any other info, I'll keep you all posted."

The Gunflint area and Saganaga for much of the season I think there is open motor permits.

My memory is that they kept some of the Ely area lotteries because outfitters worried about being unable to satisfy their customers who order permits through them. Has it been a problem?

quote andym: "My memory is that they kept some of the Ely area lotteries because outfitters worried about being unable to satisfy their customers who order permits through them. Has it been a problem?"

I don't know if there is such a fix all,but certain Outfitters figured out how to work the system on motor permits and actually tied up a lot of the permits,while others be it private individuals acting on their own or Outfitters being left without getting permits. Past data shows a couple of outfitters tied up most of the permits.

I'm referring to overnight paddle permits. I didn't think you can tie them up because the original reservation needs to include the names of the group leaders. I guess unless you are making them for possible guided trips.

Permits

quote Pinetree: "

quote andym: "My memory is that they kept some of the Ely area lotteries because outfitters worried about being unable to satisfy their customers who order permits through them. Has it been a problem?"

I don't know if there is such a fix all,but certain Outfitters figured out how to work the system on motor permits and actually tied up a lot of the permits,while others be it private individuals acting on their own or Outfitters being left without getting permits. Past data shows a couple of outfitters tied up most of the permits."

All permits, whether day motor or overnight motor; or even overnight paddle need to have names of at least one person that is actually going on the trip. This is needed at the time of reservation, so no permit can be changed to another name and only the people listed (maximum of 4) can legally sign the permit and be the official leader.

We found out that the survey about day use & overnight motor permits showed that supposedly VNO had tons of motor permits. Almost all of the motor permits that are issued here are sent to us, by people who know we have long hours (usually 5 am to 10 pm most of the season) and send them here to be issued so they could pick them up easier. So it made it appear that VNO "had" more permits than most anyone on this side. We also issue a lot of overnight paddle permits, for the same reason as people find out our hours (listed on the permit website) and send them here. This was interpreted as "our customers", a huge exaggeration of the numbers, in my opinion.

quote: "Past data shows a couple of outfitters tied up most of the permits."

So you can see how the facts can get "spun".