Posted in Listening point too, sorry for duplication but thought this important even if we do have a year to acclimate.

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Received via email September 15, 2017 from Forest Service

Dear Interested Parties,
You are receiving this letter because an application was submitted in your name for the 2017 BWCAW Permit Lottery. We are writing to inform you that the Superior National Forest will be charging a fee for all permit applications for the 2018 quota permit season and eliminating the lottery immediately after the 2018 quota permit season ends.

The FS has determined it was being charged a fee for every application submitted. Successful applicants who received a permit paid this fee however, the FS paid the fees owed by the unsuccessful applicants. The FS has determined that paying the fees of unsuccessful applications is not in the public’s best interest and does not follow policy. As a result, during the 2018 season all applicants, successful and unsuccessful alike, will be charged the $4 fee incurred when applying for a lottery permit.

In addition, with the current reservation system, the FS has determined that the lottery is no longer necessary. Previously, lottery applicants were not notified of their success until sometime after the submission period between December 1 and January 15. As a result, applicants put in multiple requests for the same, specific locations and dates in an effort to increase their likelihood of obtaining a reservation. This created the perception of a shortage of permits for certain wilderness entry points. The current permit reservation system enables real time reservations for specific entry points and dates, on a first come, first serviced basis. It allows users to determine instantly whether they are successful and eliminates the need to submit multiple applications for entry points in an attempt to “win” a permit.

As a result, the FS will discontinue the BWCA permit lotter for day use motor, overnight motor & overnight paddle after the 2018 season closes. This change will affect the following entry points:
** Day use motor entry points Fall Lake, Newton, Pipestone & beyond – D
** Day use motor entry permits for Moose Lake to Newfound and Sucker Lakes – F
** Moose Lake to Prairie Portage to Basswood – G

** Overnight paddle & motor entry points Fall Lake - #24 & Moose Lake - #25

Eliminating the lottery will create a reservation system that is less complicated, consistent, fair & will remove the need for a separate process for submitting lottery applications at the start of a season. This reservation method will also better serve those who want to make a reservation.

If you have any questions about making reservations without the lottery, contact Carl Skustad at (218) 349-8907 or Ann Schwaller at (218) 626-4325.

Finally! i think this is great news. can't believe the FS didn't know before last season they were being charged for all applications.

Sooooo...........what does this mean?
"..........and eliminating the lottery immediately after the 2018 quota permit season ends."

The 2018 quota permit application system will still be just like it has been?

Wow. Good and a year to acclimate.

I never understood the logic behind the lottery. If the FS was being charged for each lottery entry, it has been a money-losing proposition for some time.

quote KarlBAndersen1: "Sooooo...........what does this mean?
"..........and eliminating the lottery immediately after the 2018 quota permit season ends."


The 2018 quota permit application system will still be just like it has been?"

Sounds like it to me. At least we have a year to acclimate for everyone.

quote VoyageurNorth: "...the FS has determined that the lottery is no longer necessary...
"

Doh.

Thanks for the heads-up, Lynn. Do you know whether they will be keeping the reservation fee at the increased level begun this past mid-summer?

Not sure about the fee. It was $6.00 for so long and now it is $10.00 (or $4.00 for non-successful lottery ones for 2018).

I hope they don't make it a regular thing to increase the reservation fee too often, even though it is still all a bargain.

I want to know why it cost $4 per lottery entry. That seems excessive, and that's what should be investigated. I assume that was done by a third party entity, someone who got a fat government contract and realized they could exploit it. I can create a computer program in old school BASIC that will do the same thing, and I'll only charge 25 cents per entry. Whatever it brings in will be worth more than the 45 seconds it took me to type this:

10 Print "How many entrants are there?"
15 INPUT X
20 LET W = INT(RND(0)*X)+1
30 Print W; "is the winner."
40 Print "Do you want to do another lottery?"
45 INPUT Z
50 If Z = "y" then GOTO 10 else GOTO 60
60 END

RUN

Say what?

I cant quite grasp this consequences of this but if i have never used the lottery previously and never considered it, can I assume the change will not affect me? Im guessing as someone who reserves a permit at the last minute, it simply doesn't matter.

Goto statements!?! You are not getting a contract.

$4 may be high but you left out the code to do credit card transactions, store info on the entrants, notify people, and update the reservation database.

Plus, seed that random number generator with something other than 0!

Eh... it's been 30 years since I wrote BASIC code in high school. I was actually surprised I remembered that much.

OK, pretty good then. But goto statements are so last millennium.

A bit of new-ish info from the FS meeting today (daughter Amber went to meeting).

I guess the west side here out of Ely is the only one that has the motor (overnight & day use) lottery, plus the paddle lottery for the same two entries of Moose & Fall.

The rate may go up more than $4.00 for unsuccessful lottery applications after 2018 or they may decide to cancel the lottery altogether.

The people who went to the meeting gave opinions & suggestions, so it seems like nothing is completely set in stone yet.

If I find out any other info, I'll keep you all posted.

I'm all for users paying the $4 for the cost of the system. Eliminating the lottery for the day use motor permits will be a disaster. I used to duck hunt in CA years ago. They had a lottery system and a "sweat line" for people without permits. You had to stand in line at 3:30 AM wondering if you we're going to get to go duck hunting. Nobody would travel to the BWCA and wait in a line wondering if they we're going to be able to go fishing for the day or not. Maybe that's the design? Put the last remaining resorts out of business.

I'm going to disagree on this one. I think eliminating the lottery will help the average Joe to get permits... The live reservation will show people what is open . Your money will go to your registration fee not a rejection notice...
I'm quessing quides put in apps for most days of the season then find people to fill up the days that are awarded....it will be interesting to watch it unfold...

quote andym: "OK, pretty good then. But goto statements are so last millennium."

HAHA... BASIC code didn't tip you off that I was using 80s era language/techniques??? ;-)

Does anyone know what day 2018 entry permits will be available for reservation?

Since 2012, it has been opened on the last Wednesday in January, 9:00 am CST. That would make it Jan 31, 2018. Prior to that, it was on the 3rd Wednesday. Things are changing at the site again this year, so I would stay tuned. An announcement will come in plenty of time.

Thanks, I looked all over and couldn't find it anywhere. This is the first year we ate not using an outfitter.

I couldn't find it anywhere, either; I'm just going by the dates on our permit reservation confirmation letters. Since the system began, we have secured ours on the first day available, so it was easy to go back and check the dates of those emails.

Today, I just noticed the date has been posted, and it does follow the previous pattern of 'last Wednesday in January':

"Reservations for all entry points can be made on a first-come, first-served basis beginning January 31, 2018 at 9:00 a.m. CST."

And, for the more involved specifics on those select entry points still obtainable (for one last year) by lottery, see recreation.gov

Anyone go to the forest service meeting Tuesday addressing the concerns with the new system? Was anything said or done about motor permits so they don't fall into the hands of a few and make sure they actually get used? Anything about tow boats talked about or changed?

FireGuy524: "Thanks, I looked all over and couldn't find it anywhere. This is the first year we ate not using an outfitter. "

Since you are making it yourself this year, remember:

For any kind of permit, and especially an overnight of any kind;

If you have alternate leaders, make sure you put their name & know their email addresses when you reserve, you can't change that later on.

Also, make sure your alternates know they have just 72 hours to go on recreation.gov & verify that they will be your alternate. They must already have a recreation.gov account or create one.

If they do not do this within the 72 hour limit, they will be removed from your permit and you will not be able to add them on later.

If your group would not choose to go if something happened that you could not go, then not as big a deal. But if you are going with others that would still like to go if you (or whatever main leader) can't go, it is essential!

If the leader can't go & officially sign/accept the permit and there are no other names of alternate "verified" leaders, the permit is not usable.

Sorry, I went on with a lot of detail, but since you haven't done this yourself before (or so it was indicated), wanted you to be totally aware of the details needed.

Have a fantastic trip!

ellahallely: "Anyone go to the forest service meeting Tuesday addressing the concerns with the new system? Was anything said or done about motor permits so they don't fall into the hands of a few and make sure they actually get used? Anything about tow boats talked about or changed? "

Good questions.
When we had our Cisco meeting with the Forest Service in October of 2016, Gus Smith (Head Ranger in Ely) made the statement that our situation and many more will be part of a 30 month study to decide what other restrictions and regulation changes will be made.
Looks like the new and improved permit system is the tip of the iceberg, with more to come.