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mastertangler
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09/29/2017 08:32AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Just when you thought it was safe to go in the water! I have been already thinking, planning and yes dreaming of next years canoe venture. Big walleye are on the agenda (as well as Lake Trout but thats a separate discussion) at WCPP. I plan to focus on lakes where walleye are a "marginal" population so the little rascals don't get in the way!

But how to catch Mr. Big Walleye? "Duh, its live bait you idiot!" At least that was the self talk that led to the choices I am about to put into practice. More specifically crawlers. But not any crawlers but rather the "super crawlers" spoken of in the classic book "Lunkers love nightcrawlers". These are olympic crawlers, crawlers on steroids, crawlers which can usually beat the average mans fingers in a fair fight. Its been quite a while since I have pursued the light line + live bait method and I thinks it due time.

But whats the right method on water where you have never been before? Dropping live bait on known spots is easy. But live bait often makes for a poor searching tool. That is, unless one trolls with live bait and thats where the problems develop especially with a nose hooked crawler on a tiny hook.

Back in the day, at the Canadian drive to fish camps, we used to drift across reefs with minnows and crawlers with Shimano bait runner reels. Worked like a charm. Adjust that tension just so that with the lightest pull the line would feed out with little or no resistance. So my plan will be to ease around with slip sinkers and crawlers with my rod in its proper rod holder and troll around via a depth finder until the line eases out. Give them about 5 seconds and give a little snap. Then its about 5 to ten minutes, shoot a pic and release. Sounds good in theory ;-)

I had quite a time trying to locate a small bait runner to use with light line. Much harder than it used to be. Finally found a Shimano offering which is only available in Europe. Whats up with that? Plenty of Salt water models however. The second link shows some nifty customizing. I detest the clumsy double handle and will certainly replace that. I will keep the drag however as I will tighten it completely and backreel with the light line.


Shimano bait runner

Customizing
 
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09/29/2017 01:52PM  

Whoa MT. This type of reel customization requires a Mechanical Engineering degree. Guys on this forum like Ragged are about the only members who can do such modifications. I don't like double handle reels either.

I utilize a Lindy Rigging Slip Sinker worm harness system for Quetico walleyes and boat/motor trips with a lot of success. I do well with Pfleugger spinning reel and not really sure a "bait runner " reel is necessary. I do use a rod holder and use 1/2 oz Lindy Slip Sinkers to 20 ft and 3/4 oz to 30 ft. I also use 1 1/2 oz to 2 oz bottom bouncers as well to present my worm harnesses near the bottom for walleye. 4 inch Gulp crawlers work well where live bait is not allowed like in Quetico. If I were walleye fishing in BWCA I would bring in a whole flat of 500 big fat night crawlers to catch big eyes.

Worm Harnesses with a Colorado spinning blade are a great search bait too. But you are right when you downsize to just a small hook and a live worm ( or a Gulp Killer Crawler if going artificial) then you don't necessarily have a great search presentation as you go slower and your offering is smaller. But I have had great success Slow Trolling a simple Hook/worm on Lindy Slip Sinkers or Bottom Bouncers. Better yet a #1 or #2 Slow Death Hook that rotates in the water when pulled and draws in nearby walleye can be deadly on walleye.
 
mastertangler
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09/29/2017 02:43PM  
Ah, you might not be familiar with the Lunkers love nightcrawler method where a single #8 size Eagle Claw style 214 hook is poked just through the very tip of the nightcrawler and I do mean the very tip. The rest of the crawler is unadulterated with more hooks, blades etc. The goal, after all, is not merely catching a fish but rather a behemoth, which is not always so easy. Drop a huge crawler on light line with a tiny hook and its usually game on if it lands within their sight. Add a bunch of bells and whistles and they often turn up their nose........... or at least the big girls often do.

But.......Failure to allow said Walleye to run a couple of feet after the initial bite usually results in a gone crawler and no fish. Which of course is why the bait runner is so very effective especially with slow trolling or drifting. This is tried and true and not merely theory of how I hope things will work. The Baitrunner also woks fabulous with bigger minnows as well........Smack!

As per the reels modifications I will likely just replace the handle with a single paddle handle and omit the extra step of putting on a power knob. And I don't need new drag washers etc. Pretty nifty job of customizing however on the Striper fishermans part.

I like your suggestion of 500 but I will probably get three 100 cnt styrofoam boxes. That way if I have one styrofoam box go bad they won't kill my entire supply. I have a white soft sided marine bag in which to carry them. The white will help reflect the sun. Plus I will use the evaporative effect of water to try and keep them cool.

The wheels are turning. Naturally you are invited Wally13.........Quit your job, leave your wife and lets go fishing for a month ;-)
 
09/29/2017 04:54PM  
I have always loved crawlers. A relatively thin unlively one usually becomes chum.
I guess the super crawler method was my "confidence method" long before I read the book. Aberdeen 214 are fine, but I prefer " mosquito light" hooks.
The white cloth bag sounds good. I am a firm believer in evaporative cooling. A vented styrofoam box should work .
I like to mix peat, shredded newspaper, dirt, sandy soil with a couple saucer size slabs of thin sod grass on top.( probably just a confidence booster for me as I offer catch my own crawlers in old yards.)
It takes a week or so to "feed them UP" for me. I feed worm food and/or laying mash, powdered whole milk, cornmeal, and often a few coffee grounds. I even place a frozen sandwich bag on top of the grass/thin sod just before leaving.
Maybe alot of trouble; but I don't do big minnows less in a boat with cooler size aerated well. It works for me. I use a big "bait canteen" for evaporatve cooling and a spin or spincast reel. We used purple spoons last week on Erie to troll. In AM At dusk as soon as we found them; live bait was IT for the bigger fish for the most part. I would say in a canoe....just troll until located- Then drop the nose- hooked super doopers! I could ramble about "deadline crawlers" forever. oth
 
09/29/2017 05:38PM  
PS- the wallies were at 26-30 in 49-50 ft of water.
 
09/29/2017 06:12PM  

I use a burlap gunny sack over each of my 2 styrofoam coolers that have nightcrawlers and newspaper bedding. Like Overthehill I like to use evaporation effect method to keep my worms cool for the 10 day trip. I dip the burplap funny sacks in lake water and put over worm boxes. I keep boxes in the shade and occasionally redip burlap sacks in cold lake water so boxes stay cool. An Indian taught me this burlap sack trick to keep my first big 21 inch smallie I caught in good condition for a mount back in 1987. ( before graphite mounts became popular). The wet burlap gets quite cool even in 85 degree temps.
 
mastertangler
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09/30/2017 06:17AM  
Good stuff.

OTH were you fishing Ohio, Pennsylvania or Michigan waters? I know the Perch bite is going strong right now in Michigan on Erie.

Gentlemen allow me to share with you how to REALLY get your crawlers into "Super Crawler" shape. You should pick up the book BTW as what I am about to impart is not my own idea but rather straight out of the book which changed my fishing life forever........."Lunkers Love Nightcrawlers".

You need some newspaper and a refrigerator and a plastic container which is somewhat wide and flat and has a flexible top. Dump your crawlers into the container but use moss type bedding only. NO dirt and especially none of that papery type bedding which can absorb water. The entire works should be within 3/4 or more of the top.

Next, Rip strips of newspaper about 2 or 3 inches wide. Wet the newspaper generously, roll into a loose ball and place on top of your crawlers. Repeat until you have a mounded pile of newspaper balls which exceed the container. Capiche?

Then press the lid tightly onto your container. It should fit very tight and have a bulging top. The concept is to immobilize your crawlers and force feed them water via the wetted newspaper strips for about 7 days. Do not use water to the point it is pooling but enough water to do the job is required. Your newspaper balls should be dripping when you place them on top.

Put the entire works in the fridge for a week. The results will blow you away. These will be the fattest, strongest and liveliest crawlers you have ever seen, I promise. You will need to place your crawlers into some new bedding which does not have so much water once they are out of the fridge and into a cooler or burlap sack.

OTH..........Yes the Owner Mosquito hook is also one of my favorites and the "light" would be a thinner wire as well which would allow for the 4 or 6lb test I intend to use. I have had exceedingly good results however with the little 214 and the leverage action seems to really excel with the type of rods needed to pull this stunt off. I use the red Mosquito hook in larger sizes to fish chubs on St Clair for smallies, works great.

Lastly, thanks Mods for moving the errant post ;-)

 
09/30/2017 07:18AM  
MA. Ohio. Perch near rattlesnake. Trolling wallies was north of cedar point. On a side note: at least on a motorized BW trip....I have thought about planing with small 'dipsy divers'.
 
missmolly
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09/30/2017 09:26AM  
I prefer tiny reels in the 6-7 ounce range and you're right about most bait runners being behemoths. The bait runner I use is ancient, but because it's fairly small, I keep using it. I suspect most bait runners are bought by catfish fishers, thus their size.
 
Savage Voyageur
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09/30/2017 04:41PM  
Thanks for the tip MT. I will be ordering these and changing my 2500 symmetry reels out to the carbon fiber drag disks. I have had the reels completely apart before many times. Is there anything special I should know when installing them?

Side note, Sorry but I don't like those double handles or the power knob.
 
mastertangler
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09/30/2017 07:37PM  
quote Savage Voyageur: "Thanks for the tip MT. I will be ordering these and changing my 2500 symmetry reels out to the carbon fiber drag disks. I have had the reels completely apart before many times. Is there anything special I should know when installing them?


Side note, Sorry but I don't like those double handles or the power knob."


The modifications made in the link were for a guy fishing stripers out of a Kayak. He probably needs that power knob as stripers are very tough customers........same with the carbon fiber drags. I have the power knob on some of my larger salt water spinners and like it a lot.

I am definitely not the guy to ask about drag washer material. I basically get quality reels and stick with what the company provides. The one thing however that I typically always do is to loosen my drag after every trip. Keep them tight and put them away like that and your asking for "issues" like drag stickiness etc.

I also hate the double handle on that bait runner and will be replacing ........single but with a large paddle handle. If you like live bait and have never used a bait runner they really are pretty slick.

Miss Molly I am not a fan of really small reels unless I am backpacking and fishing for mountain trout. Small spools mean limited line capacity and short casts as well as more "line memory" since it is wound tightly. It also means that after a cast the amount of line left on your reel has decreased in diameter and will radically change your drag setting. In other words, as the amount of line (diameter) decreases on the spool the drag will become tighter and operate less efficiently. In severe instances it will become sticky. I typically don't fish anything less than a 2500 series reel.
 
10/01/2017 01:55PM  
quote missmolly: "I suspect most bait runners are bought by catfish fishers, thus their size. "


As far as I know, bait runners were originally developed for salt water species.

In Europe they are popular for carp fishing (some times called bite and run).

AFAIK, the Shimano was the original. The current version is very expensive.

I think that Okuma is making some of the best bang for your buck bait runner reels. Here is a pic of the ABF 30:

 
old_salt
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10/01/2017 10:29PM  
Is live bait legal in WCPP?
 
mastertangler
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10/02/2017 04:30AM  
quote old_salt: "Is live bait legal in WCPP?"


Oh No! I know its no dice in the Quetico, but assumed it was OK in WCPP. Why I would think that I have no idea. I had better check into it I suppose.
 
mastertangler
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10/02/2017 04:33AM  
quote rdgbwca: "
quote missmolly: "I suspect most bait runners are bought by catfish fishers, thus their size. "



As far as I know, bait runners were originally developed for salt water species.


In Europe they are popular for carp fishing (some times called bite and run).


AFAIK, the Shimano was the original. The current version is very expensive.


I think that Okuma is making some of the best bang for your buck bait runner reels. Here is a pic of the ABF 30:


"


Actually bait runners are not particularly expensive. The one smallish one I linked to is $125. The Okuma bait runners are inexpensive and i am not sure about getting a small one.......perhaps overly so ($) and makes my left eyebrow raise up just a bit. The striper guy in the modifications link had talked about burning through the Okumas, but that was with stripers and they are a very strong hard running fish. In the BWCA the Okumas are probably fine provided you can get one which isn't huge. But I have always been a Shimano sort of guy.
 
mastertangler
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10/02/2017 04:47AM  
quote old_salt: "Is live bait legal in WCPP?"


I dug around a bit and by no means am I completely convinced but all I could find was no minnows, leeches, crayfish or salamanders can be brought in.
 
mastertangler
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10/18/2017 10:05AM  
The Shimano Bait runner 2500 showed up today. I am pleased overall.........the old bait runners from shimano were not especially well made IMO. They had bushings instead of bearings which quickly wore out.

The new Bait runner is a metal body which of course makes it a bit on the heavy side. Glad its a smallish reel. Looks to be exceptionally well made with very tight tolerances and infinite anti reverse. Still not sure about the whole double handle......I suppose I could get used to it.

If you like any kind of live bait which requires feeding a bit of line these are the ticket. Lately on St Clair I have been loosening my drag on my Stradics to allow for line feeding while chub fishing for smallies. This will be much better and less hassle. Crawlers require even more precision with line feeding than chubs and minnows especially if your rod is in a rod holder. Feed about 3 to 5 seconds of line, turn the handle one revolution and its game on. Slick set up.

This size does not look to be available in the U.S. Only at Ebay from overseas.......have it in 5 days or so. Make sure it is the 2500 if you want a walleye reel. Spare spool is included.

 
AnglerJake
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10/19/2017 09:40AM  
Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!
 
mastertangler
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10/19/2017 11:23AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!"


Hey how about that! I looked on Amazon and all the usual sites but the only DL front drag bait runners I could find were the 4000 and the 6000 series which are to large to spool up with light line. Then I investigated the fishing forums commenting on the DL series reels and it verified that they were unavailable in US markets and suggested getting them off of Ebay which I did.

But lo and behold there they are! And for $15 cheaper! Cool. They make a rear drag version as well but I do not like the physics associated with rear drag reels. They are very inefficient. Front drags are superior in almost every aspect. But it makes no dif to me as I lock down the drag and back reel anyway when using 4 and 6lb test.

I was just playing with the reel before coming in to get a cup of tea and am liking it more and more. Stainless steel bearings add smoothness and the reel feels very tight. The double handle is starting to grow on me as it provides a counter balance of sorts. The bait runner mechanism on the 2500 is VERY smooth and adjustable. I am considering getting another one.
 
mastertangler
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10/19/2017 11:23AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!"


Hey how about that! I looked on Amazon and all the usual sites but the only DL front drag bait runners I could find were the 4000 and the 6000 series which are to large to spool up with light line. Then I investigated the fishing forums commenting on the DL series reels and it verified that they were unavailable in US markets and suggested getting them off of Ebay which I did.

But lo and behold there they are! And for $15 cheaper! Cool. They make a rear drag version as well but I do not like the physics associated with rear drag reels. They are very inefficient. Front drags are superior in almost every aspect. But it makes no dif to me as I lock down the drag and back reel anyway when using 4 and 6lb test.

I was just playing with the reel before coming in to get a cup of tea and am liking it more and more. Stainless steel bearings add smoothness and the reel feels very tight. The double handle is starting to grow on me as it provides a counter balance of sorts. The bait runner mechanism on the 2500 is VERY smooth and adjustable. I am considering getting another one.
 
AnglerJake
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10/19/2017 11:36AM  
:) I might get one also. I have a copy of the original Lunkers Love Nightcrawlers that I got probably 30 years ago. Used to go to a really clear lake in MN and a light or ultra light long rod, 4# test and a nose hooked super crawler on a #6 hook was the ticket.
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 06:23AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!"


Hey Jake, a thought occurred to me (Imagine that ;-)

Check out and see if the lower priced reel from Amazon comes with a spare spool. I remember reading that some come with only one spool. I don't know about you but I wouldn't get a reel without a spare spool.
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 06:23AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!"


Hey Jake, a thought occurred to me (Imagine that ;-)

Check out and see if the lower priced reel from Amazon comes with a spare spool. I remember reading that some come with only one spool. I don't know about you but I wouldn't get a reel without a spare spool.
 
AnglerJake
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10/20/2017 07:09AM  
quote mastertangler: "
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT! Is this the same reel?
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Baitrunner-DL-Frontdrag-baitrunner/dp/B011A4I79U
Thanks!"



Hey Jake, a thought occurred to me (Imagine that ;-)


Check out and see if the lower priced reel from Amazon comes with a spare spool. I remember reading that some come with only one spool. I don't know about you but I wouldn't get a reel without a spare spool. "


Good morning, MT! I just looked and, yes, it does come with spare spool. Hard to find reels that do nowadays.
 
AnglerJake
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10/20/2017 08:40AM  
Hey, MT. I just ordered one of the reels. What do you plan to doo for a handle replacement? I've never used a spinning reel with a double handle like that. Maybe it won't be too bad? Have a great weekend.
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 11:17AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Hey, MT. I just ordered one of the reels. What do you plan to doo for a handle replacement? I've never used a spinning reel with a double handle like that. Maybe it won't be too bad? Have a great weekend."


At first I considered just replacing it with a handle like what I have on my Stradic. But now that I have it in my hands, the Baitrunner that is, I think I will keep it. Not so bad and it does counterbalance the handle. It does add weight however.
 
AnglerJake
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10/25/2017 07:12AM  
Good morning, MT. Got my reel yesterday from Amazon. It did come with spare spool. I think I wil really like it.
 
mastertangler
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10/25/2017 07:26AM  
quote AnglerJake: "Good morning, MT. Got my reel yesterday from Amazon. It did come with spare spool. I think I wil really like it."


Groovy.........how are you planning on using it? Overseas they use them quite a bit carp fishing. Its a big deal over there with all kinds of specialty rigs and tournaments. Hilarious right? I mean we would like to rid ourselves of the blasted things and they celebrate them.

Here is a story which is food for thought. We were drifting a reef on Lake Minnitaki near Sioux Lookout Ontario. I had the rod in the rod holder with the bait runner mechanism on and a big crawler barely hooked in the tip of the nose with a small hook. Suddenly the line started easing out at about the same speed as the drift. I stated to my partner that the Lindy boys would probably set up in this situation so thats exactly what I did. I fully expected that it was just the sinker getting hung in a rock but when that 8' rod bent double and started bouncing I knew I had a big fish. A few minutes later a walleye of at least 8lbs (but under 10) came to net.

I don't think I would of caught that fish without having fed it some line first. The bait runners also work wonderfully well with chubs and suckers either drifting or using slip bobbers. I can't wait to use mine..........I haven't done this style of fishing in over 25 years and I am really looking forward to it.

Here is a bit of advice..........the more you point the rod directly at your offering the easier it is for the line to come off the reel when the mechanism is turned on. You will have to determine exactly how much pressure you desire before line will leave the reel. What I mean is this.........lets say you have the rod and the line at a 90 angle to each other. You might have the bait runner mechanism engaged at its lightest position but bear in mind that each eyelet on the rod will create resistance (this scenario can also be applied to your drag while fighting a fish but I digress). So with very delicate offerings like crawlers you will want the rod pointing more or less at your bait so the eyelets don't cause friction and defeat the entire purpose. Minnows are different as fish don't drop them as often nor are they knocked off the hook easily. Make sense?
 
AnglerJake
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10/26/2017 07:38AM  
Plan on using it with an 8' light action rod, 6# line, and a small hook. Perhaps with a slip bobber.
 
mastertangler
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10/26/2017 01:09PM  
quote AnglerJake: "Plan on using it with an 8' light action rod, 6# line, and a small hook. Perhaps with a slip bobber. "


Perfecto! Have you ever used the Lunkers love Nightcrawler method? It uses a style 214 in size #8 eagle claw hook which is hooked just though the very tip of the nightcrawlers nose......Just behind that little hard part that they use to tunnel with. A little shot of air in the tail helps float your crawler up off the bottom while using a LIndy Rig.

Another fun application, and you have the right rod to do it with, is tossing the crawlers along with a split shot some 18" above the hook. The light action of the rod will let you toss these a decent distance without ripping them off the hook and let it ease on down.

I use slip bobbers with creek chubs on Lake St Clair in Michigan. Works great.......they can't say no and I can have my way with them. In the past I had been just loosening the drag until the line will go out and then have to tighten it up etc. etc. to set the hook. The bait runner will make everything lots easier.
 
AnglerJake
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10/26/2017 01:29PM  
quote mastertangler: "
quote AnglerJake: "Plan on using it with an 8' light action rod, 6# line, and a small hook. Perhaps with a slip bobber. "



Perfecto! Have you ever used the Lunkers love Nightcrawler method? It uses a style 214 in size #8 eagle claw hook which is hooked just though the very tip of the nightcrawlers nose......Just behind that little hard part that they use to tunnel with. A little shot of air in the tail helps float your crawler up off the bottom while using a LIndy Rig.


Another fun application, and you have the right rod to do it with, is tossing the crawlers along with a split shot some 18" above the hook. The light action of the rod will let you toss these a decent distance without ripping them off the hook and let it ease on down.


I use slip bobbers with creek chubs on Lake St Clair in Michigan. Works great.......they can't say no and I can have my way with them. In the past I had been just loosening the drag until the line will go out and then have to tighten it up etc. etc. to set the hook. The bait runner will make everything lots easier. "


Oh, yeah... until the resort closed up and the rusty crayfish took over, we fished an ultra clear lake near Grand Marais. This was 30 years ago. We had the original Lunkers Love Nightcrawlers books and followed the recommendations to the tee. Caught lots of walleye and bass with nothing but a tiny splitshot, tiny hook, 4 or 6 lb test, and a long limber rod. Good times!
 
mastertangler
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10/27/2017 06:16AM  
Another good application ("hey theres an app for that ;-) for the bait runner is while one is in camp. I always have some dread of my rod getting pulled into the lake.

I have a 6500 Shimano Baitrunner which will likely be going with me this summer as well. Somehow I can picture the crawler rod providing a steady supply of baitfish. The 6500 is a substantial reel which I will spool up with 40lb braid and rig with a big slip bobber and a quick strike wire rig. It would be nice to get a pike closer to 50" instead of 40" ;-)
 
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