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mastertangler
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10/12/2017 06:20AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I am already scheming and planning for next years trip. Its a walleye trip with an emphasis on big fish. To that end I am focusing on lakes with "marginal" walleye populations. No use feeding crawlers to winky 20" walleye.

Digging around on the inter web looking for the right crawler container to lug into the backcountry and came across this guys material. Looks like we both have been largely impacted by the same book. My copy is long gone but I will likely purchase it again to refresh my memory. He has a few wrinkles which are different.

Lunkers love nightcrawlers revisited
 
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mastertangler
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10/12/2017 06:52AM  
Just picked up a used copy of the "New and updated" version of the old classic "Lunkers love nightcrawlers". I think I bought the original for $10 back in the day. A new copy is outrageous at over $78 (seriously?). I picked up a used copy on Ebay of the updated version for $25 which I thought was still sort of steep.

For those of you who fish on clear water lakes which are highly pressured this is your ticket to big fish. The big girls are there but they are educated. They cannot turn down a big super crawler presented with this method. Plus the knowledge presented on big fish locations is worth the price of admission.
 
10/12/2017 07:17AM  
Always been a big fan of this method. We usually basecamp and bring a 'bait canteen' (shoebox size) that is kept wet in the shade. I like to leave it at camp and use a small (about 7X5X7") two -sided -lid styrofoam container for daytrips. Maybe 5 dozen in canteen initially; and 18 in small box initially. Majic makes some I believe.
 
olderjim
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10/12/2017 09:02AM  
I still have my original book but didn't save any of the old Fishing Facts magazines...
 
mastertangler
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10/12/2017 10:21AM  
quote overthehill: "Always been a big fan of this method. We usually basecamp and bring a 'bait canteen' (shoebox size) that is kept wet in the shade. I like to leave it at camp and use a small (about 7X5X7") two -sided -lid styrofoam container for daytrips. Maybe 5 dozen in canteen initially; and 18 in small box initially. Majic makes some I believe."


Yes I like the idea of using a frabill 2 sided small styrofoam container for a day supply. I am looking at the magic ranch for the bulk of them. I wonder how many I could keep alive and for how long? I usually go for 20 plus days and that in August. If its hot I could have "issues". I figure 450 ought to do it. Need to put the thing in a wet burlap sack but I need handles of some sort and I have to figure out a way to keep the container from getting busted up.

Really looking forward to an emphasis on live bait. A few years back in WCPP I could catch walleye all day long but I don't think I ever cracked the 24" mark. No good! I remember wishing I had crawlers.

Magic Ranch
 
10/12/2017 05:51PM  
The Lunkers Love method (known here as the TGO method) works well with any live bait. Where permitted, I've used it with night crawlers, minnows, leeches, crawdads, etc. Instead of a spool full of light mono, I prefer 8-10 lb braid with a 30" 6 lb fluro leader. Any styro container kept wet and cool will do the trick. During hot weather, I've even buried mine in camp to keep it cool. Travel days I bury it in my food vault.
 
Atb
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10/12/2017 08:47PM  
Looks like earlier editions of the book are available more affordably, is there great benefit to the updates? Is it simply a long winded version of TGO? I'm interested, tell me more...
 
10/13/2017 04:13AM  
This message has had HTML content edited out of it.
quote mastertangler: "
quote overthehill: "Always been a big fan of this method. We usually basecamp and bring a 'bait canteen' (shoebox size) that is kept wet in the shade. I like to leave it at camp and use a small (about 7X5X7") two -sided -lid styrofoam container for daytrips. Maybe 5 dozen in canteen initially; and 18 in small box initially. Majic makes some I believe."



Yes I like the idea of using a frabill 2 sided small styrofoam container for a day supply. I am looking at the magic ranch for the bulk of them. I wonder how many I could keep alive and for how long? I usually go for 20 plus days and that in August. If its hot I could have "issues". I figure 450 ought to do it. Need to put the thing in a wet burlap sack but I need handles of some sort and I have to figure out a way to keep the container from getting busted up.


Really looking forward to an emphasis on live bait. A few years back in WCPP I could catch walleye all day long but I don't think I ever cracked the 24" mark. No good! I remember wishing I had crawlers.



TARGET="_blank">Magic Ranch
"

I have a couple of the worm farms. I would not go over 12 dozen big crawlers for a week. Burlap sack is great, as long as it is KEPT wet. Even in the shade, 3-4 ssoakings a day may be required in August.
I have a military surplus "water carrier/cooler". A double-walled canvas zip top from desert storm days used to cool 5 gallon Army Jerry cans. Removed the thin wooden platform from the bottom to save weight. It had a sling strap, but I put it in a backpack harness .
Don't wet it until at basecamp as it weighs enough already. But KEPT damp (maybe once daily) it WILL keep food and/or crawlers cool. Next best thing to refrigeration.
More weight and bulk but worth it if base camping and cooling. Not sure if styrofoam "breathes" well enough to "evaporatve cool". A mass of big crawlers can make some heat. Styrofoam will keep heat IN as well as out too. If I needed near a flat of crawlers (450)? ; I wouldn't crowd and smother them. They need to breathe.
 
10/13/2017 05:02AM  
Brainstorming. Blue sky.
What about a mid-size soft cooler that will saturate? Just a thought. Or even make one doubled with burlap AND canvas with a strap handle or sling. Burlap saturates AND dries quicker than canvas but has better air flow so probably cooler IF WET. Canvas would dry slower but maybe not QUITE as cool. There is surly a way without packing in a propane refrigerator! :) oth
 
mastertangler
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10/13/2017 06:12AM  
I have read on some of the fishing forums that the new and updated version has some added insight. Lunkers Love nightcrawlers is much more than a hook and a sinker and is steeped in very specific methods from some of the best and most innovative fishermen in the country. It certainly changed my fishing life and introduced me to the concept of deep water refuges, migration routes, light line, long rods, tiny hooks, back reeling, super conditioned crawlers etc. etc.

At the time of the original printing braid wasn't around.........I will be interested to see what the verdict is when I read the updated version. But I am leaning strongly towards straight fluorocarbon and will likely go with 6 but a spool of 4 isn't out of the question. I used the Invisx fluorocarbon on my last trip to Isle Royale and was impressed. Very pricey stuff to be sure but knot strength was very good. I am leery of the braid precisely because of its no stretch properties. Big fish and light line stretch is actually a good thing IMO. Besides, I will be fishing primarily below the boat at a 45 degree angle max so sensitivity is not a requirement. Ease around with the rod in the rod holder until the bait runner feeds line. We used to do it all the time at the fish camp on Minnitaki with crawlers and wild caught minnows. Works perfectly.

I think I have settled on the big worm ranch to store and fatten my crawlers up but will likely use 2 of the 1000 series Magic containers for transport. A bit smaller and therefore probably a bit tougher plus all my "eggs" won't be in one basket. A dead crawler will kill your entire batch in short order (more valuable info presented in the book). I am still figuring out the burlap tote to lug the works around. My Mother in law is quite handy with a sewing machine.......maybe I will have her make me something, maybe even use two layers of burlap (or as OTH suggests Canvas and burlap) to add strength and add even longer evaporative effects before it needs to get soaked again. Fortunately she is fond of me ;-)
 
10/13/2017 11:31AM  
A light colored duffle bag modified (shortened ?) And slid in a burlap sleeve might be nice. Wish could sew. I believe I would have me one ! 2 ranches might work well for 400+ crawlers in average weather and care.
 
mastertangler
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10/13/2017 01:12PM  
quote overthehill: "A light colored duffle bag modified (shortened ?) And slid in a burlap sleeve might be nice. Wish could sew. I believe I would have me one ! 2 ranches might work well for 400+ crawlers in average weather and care."


Pretty sure you can buy burlap at a fabric store? Maybe get a white or a beige color. Double the material and have it custom made to fit 2 of the 1000 size worm ranches which, as you suggest, could accommodate 200 olympic size crawlers each. Make some nice handles to carry as a duffel type bag.

I am well on my way to executing my plan (muhahahah). Size #8 Owner Mosquito hooks purchased as well as Gamakatsu #8 carp hooks. The Shimano 2500 series bait runner is on its way over from Europe someplace. The 8' steelhead rod is already in sitting in the rack. Of course an assortment of "The Usual Suspects" lure wise would be required in case the crawler plan goes south.

Now I just have to pare things down so I don't have to Quadruple portage and just triple. Lots of portaging on this trip........... I may have to leave some food behind ;-)

Think 200 would fit into one of these? I dunno.......maybe I should get 3?
Magic 1000 worm container
 
10/13/2017 11:01PM  

For over 20 years I have used 2 Magic 1000 Worm Containers to store my flat of 500 fat nightcrawlers for my Fly-in walleye trip. I just put in some worm food on top of the bedding the day I leave for my trip and when I get to my fly-in lake I put the 2 Magic containers in the cabin refrigerator to keep cool. Has always kept my nighcrawlers in great condition for a week of walleye fishing.

Some fisherman put their worms in a large 1.5 to 2 inch thick styrofoam cooler with worm bedding and put wet newspaper on top of the bedding and keep the worms cold by putting frozen water bottles on top of the wet newspaper. They store the styrofoam cooler outside in the shade. They prefer to use the inside of their cabin refrigerator to store their beer. I will be going with this method for my 2018 trip.

From 1979 until the live bait ban in 2007 I always brought 2 Magic 1000 worm containers into Quetico to store my flat of 500 worms for my 10 day trips. I kept them cool by wrapping my boxes in burlap fabric sleeves that my wife custom cut and sewed. I periodically poured cold lake water on the burlap wrapping and evaporative cooling kept the worms in decent condition. Not as cold as a cabin refrigerator but for very adequate for 10 days in the bush. Very important to keep the worms out of the sun and in the shade as best you can. I once put the boxes in a hole in the ground when temps hit the low 90's one time in early July. I used a canvas carrying zippered case with a shoulder sling to carry the worms on portages.

I miss having nightcrawlers for fishing for walleyes in Quetico.

 
10/14/2017 01:20AM  
a whole crawler on a phelps floater with a little air on a slip sinker set up from camp is my go to presentation on brook trout lakes , and it has caught me a few just under #4 in the BW .... on one trip we did good the first day after that them buggers were nipping eating right up to the hook ,
 
mastertangler
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10/14/2017 06:50AM  
quote shock: "a whole crawler on a phelps floater with a little air on a slip sinker set up from camp is my go to presentation on brook trout lakes , and it has caught me a few just under #4 in the BW .... on one trip we did good the first day after that them buggers were nipping eating right up to the hook , "


Wow a Brook trout approaching 4lbs would be a dream fish. Yes, I to liked being able to chuck a big crawler out while in camp. The little shot of air is right out of Lunkers Love Nightcrawlers.

Walleye 13
Thanks for the input. Nothing like actual experience to confirm ones suspicions. Looks like I am on target even down to custom making a burlap sack. Yup I hated that the Quetico banned bait as well. So far I have received no word on the lawfulness of crawlers in WCPP. I can find nothing mentioning them. I have posted in the WCPP concerning this and hope someone gives me a yea or a nay. By the time you retire maybe I can get it wired and play guide.

If you have never conditioned your crawlers you are missing the boat. They get hard as a rock, super lively and very muscular. I am thinking of using the strategy on a personal level and sitting in an ice bath while bound and unable to move for a few weeks ;-)

 
zika
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10/14/2017 11:57PM  
I was a fishing guide on Snowbank Lake in 1971 when a client gave me that book. As a deep, clear, plenty of feed, heavily fished lake Snowbank was tough in the summer. Bob Cary used to kid me that Snowbank was a hard way to make a living. That book was money in the bank for me fishing Snowbank. Holding the recommended temperature is hard to do on a canoe trip once ice or dry ice is gone. The cold temp is critical for super bait. I used wet burlap bags but not the same as my Servel propane frig on Snowbank. It is that cold temp you really need to keep them in the conditioned state. If I were to go back to conditioned crawlers far a longer canoe trip I would attempt to build a refrigerated worm cooler. Purchase a 7 day styrofoam 2" thick cooler that fits into a # 3 Duluth pack. Install a peltier junction kit from Amazon.com as the cooling source. I would build a battery pack using 18650 Li Batts w/ matching batt charger and solar panel. I would build for light weight and small size (500 crawlers). I think it might work. I fish Quetico now with artificial. Fishing is as good as it ever was in the 70's. I do still think about all the 7 lb ++ walleyes and 4 lb ++ bass my clients caught with conditioned crawlers, cooled by ice in the current on Crooked. I guided an Outdoor Life editor who wrote an 8 page article about it. Another lifetime ago.
 
mastertangler
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10/15/2017 05:33AM  
Good stuff Zika, a guides life is always interesting.

Concerning the Peltier junction kit.........I had never even heard of such a thing. It certainly merits serious consideration. I already carry a fairly massive Li power source as well as a 28 watt solar panel dedicated solely to running my depth finder for 20+ days.

 
mastertangler
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10/15/2017 09:00AM  
Naturally I am intrigued about the possibility of cooling my crawlers via the suggestion of a Peltier junction kit. Curious as to its practicality and perhaps I can get Magic Paddlers attention as he is a whiz on such things.

This video was informative

Peltier Junction Kit

And here is my power supply

Biennia power 120 watt
 
mastertangler
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10/15/2017 12:38PM  
I have a confession to make (Father forgive me for I have sinned).........I had a hard time concentrating in church this morning thinking about my portable nightcrawler refrigeration unit.

I have a Styrofoam container from Omaha Steak company which I think will work perfectly. Cut the top, secure and foam the device in place. Add a thermometer like what is used on a grill so I can read the temp from the outside. I wonder how long you would have to run the thing to keep the crawlers in the target zone of 50 degrees? 10 minutes per hour might work. That would be a practical time frame perhaps without burning through the battery.

The unit is not particularly expensive so i think I will proceed and give it a trial run including putting the worm bedding into the container. Then experiment and actually see if it is practical. You would probably need it primarily during the afternoon. I have a 28 watt solar charger which charges the battery full in a good sunny day.

It would be an even exchange space and weight wise..........get rid of all the endless lures, especially the big pike lures which take up so much room and just fish crawlers. Maybe have a dozen lures as a back up or for trolling. The focus, after all, is on trophy walleye! And what better way to get them than with live bait.
 
zika
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10/15/2017 03:28PM  
Your experiment outline is sound. What was the authors recommended temperature? 55 deg F? Maybe 1 peltier will work with a small fan in the cooler and one out. Your final cofiguration will consist of a thermostat set to 55 deg, seal seams in cooler for leakage and see how much battery power you need for holding temp. There is probably something like this on the market. I have built a couple to temp cycle electronics under test.
 
10/15/2017 03:54PM  
This is so cool a project! Yes! You could even track worms per cu, inch..Cool. Carry in da sling bag dry and "Evapo-assist" at camp. I have had a probe thermometer in an Omaha; but only to play home in the shade for curiosity's sake. Hell, target 47 if wished; and remember.......
When those crawlers GET ready to rock; they can fill some space and make some animal heat. Temp/Time cYcles. The sling carry bag is bound to reduce batterydraw at camp
When those worms get ready, Don't crowd them. It is a fine line. This set-up sounds like it will do a flat.
 
10/15/2017 04:16PM  
Get a few of the 2" pvc pipe vent caps. A bird/critter stop for plumbing roof vents.
 
10/15/2017 04:24PM  
I'd have daydreamed at church too :)
I can picture arriving at camp, setting sling bag down on a pine-needle- drifted -over depression, dousing with a bucket of water over top and game on! If those eat well you may have to a #4 skeeter so as to not completely bury it. :). Bronze AND red for depths. What da heck: just a wee bit more to carry :)
 
mastertangler
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10/15/2017 05:07PM  
quote overthehill: "Get a few of the 2" pvc pipe vent caps. A bird/critter stop for plumbing roof vents."


I noticed that the Magic Ranch has some air vents........OTH are you suggesting the 2" pipe vent caps to provide air? Would that be counter productive to keeping them cool or a requirement?

Zika I had not considered using a thermostat but figured I could manually control the temperature by just keeping an eye on the thermometer. Hook a couple of clips up for 10 minutes every hour or two. A thermostat would be easier I suppose but I am not sure how to rig it up or what type to get. I'm sort of a low tech guy ;-)

OTH I have not figured out how to carry the cooler provided this even works. The Omaha Steak cooler is pretty tough as its also used as a shipping container but its also fairly big. I would probably need to make a harness or get a pack to put it in. The crawlers could go across on my back with the boat. Going through all this trouble at least 500 super crawlers sound good. I probably won't go through them like lightning since I am targeting lakes with marginal walleye populations unless the perch eat me up. Probably will pop some pike as well. Remind me to bring plenty of hooks!

OTH.........I like the idea of putting the works in a depression with pine needles and wetting it but you lost me a bit. What does a #4 skeeter mean? And what does "bronze and red for depths" mean? I am confused.
 
10/15/2017 06:39PM  
Joking about mosquito #8 hooks getting lost in those big super crawlers. I like Owner #4 Skeeter=mosquito.
And pine needles, wet burlap etc. .... evaporatve would assist and backup. What the heck..... bring someburlap anyway. A thermostat is just an in-line switch- basically.
 
mastertangler
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10/16/2017 05:40AM  
quote overthehill: "Joking about mosquito #8 hooks getting lost in those big super crawlers. I like Owner #4 Skeeter=mosquito.
And pine needles, wet burlap etc. .... evaporatve would assist and backup. What the heck..... bring someburlap anyway. A thermostat is just an in-line switch- basically."


I know what a thermostat is I just question its usefulness on this sort of set up. Seems like something that can go wrong. But maybe it could be useful. I have all winter to play around. I should probably rig one up.

I had a feeling you were joking around about the #4 skeeter reference. If guys only knew the difference between a dinky wimpy nightcrawler you get these days vs a conditioned crawler. Think I should bring some #6 hooks??? You use #4? That goes against the Lunkers love nightcrawlers small hook philosophy. I find that the long rods do an excellent job of setting small hooks and offer excellent protection not only for the light line but also guards against pulled hooks (the small hooks have far less "bite" due to their small gap).

Yes........definitely be bringing burlap as option #2. If it gets hot I will use the battery otherwise I will use the burlap. Plus I will need the burlap for the smaller box of crawlers I will work out of.

You missed the vent cap question. If I put vent caps into the cooler won't the fan (which pulls the hot air out of the cooler) just suck more outside air in via the vent caps thus defeating the entire system? On the other hand all the bait containers I have seen for long term storage have venting. Maybe I could have a vent system which remains closed during the time the fan is on? Put the venting on top since cold air sinks.
 
mastertangler
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10/16/2017 07:17AM  
OK this is what I have coming.........what say you?

Peltier junction kit
 
zika
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10/16/2017 08:48AM  
This will be good for your initial experiment and give you a ball park of demand on a battery. Your canoe version will have to be a fraction of the power consumption. I will rummage through my lab for a peltier and 2 small fans and lower power configuration. Will also think about a battery pack for you dedicated to lowest power cooler so you have other battery on loktor. Do a search "portable cooler for food electric". Coolers come up under $100. They could be modified to set a thermostat to 50 or 55 deg F. Thermostat essential to conserve battery. The discussion of vents in the container is for evaporation cooling. I have thoughts on optimizing the non electric evaporation approach but I think this allows your worms to survive in summer but does not condition them to the 50 deg state. I recall packing them very tight in individual small containers like cottage cheese containers with shredded newspapers and bedding was critical. Confined movement, food, cold. Otherwise they are just like any crawler from the bait store. Follow the books details closely.
 
mastertangler
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10/16/2017 10:01AM  
Hmmm.........can do.

I won't be able to do much experimenting until mid November when I retrieve my power supply from Michigan. I will be trying the Peltier junction kit vs a Thermoelectric Igloo cooler which I just picked up on Ebay for the astonishing price of $55. It will serve me well in any event as I am on the road a lot and despise having to fuss with ice all the time. If it works as a crawler cooler even better as I like the shape and portability with carrying handle already incorporated. I will have to keep a good eye on it as there appears to be no way to regulate the temp. Would hate to freeze them!

Igloo thermoelectric

I will see which one does the job for the least power.

Thanks Zika.
 
zika
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10/16/2017 10:29AM  
I will help you with thermostat.
 
mastertangler
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10/16/2017 02:58PM  
quote zika: "I will help you with thermostat."


How cool is that ;-)

Shoot me a link to what I should get. You might have to walk me through installation. It needs be durable and water resistant.
 
zika
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10/16/2017 09:51PM  
I may have a thermostat in my lab or I will find you one. Last one I used was a radio shack with 2 set points, hi and low. $10 I think. Could be the electric cooler you bought runs at 50 C or we can modify it with our own thermostat. A peltier junction will heat if the DC current is reversed. It can be used to heat and cool. You are only concerned with cooling on a summer canoe trip. A consideration of cooling and battery budget is how often the cooler is open. I think the project is a worthwhile one. I wish I had offered you a peltier before you purchased one.
 
mastertangler
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10/17/2017 05:40AM  
My concern is how the power source is going to hold up. I am looking at an alternate Li battery to power my depth finder (Tracer Li > hat tip Kerry). But first things first.......I will see if this project is practical.

I am also wondering if my initial thinking concerning the smaller magic worm ranches (1000 series) would be more practical and incorporating smaller Peltier's into those instead of the double model I have coming which would be applied to a single large styrofoam cooler. Again the question of power consumption weighs heavily.

I have my doubts about the Igloo.........probably going to draw to much juice. But we will see. If I could get 4 days of cooling, running it periodically, it could work. Within those 4 days I need a sunny day to put the 28 watt solar panel out. Perhaps I have finally found a real purpose for lugging a 3.5lb battery and big heavy solar panel around!

Zika has a lab! Mad scientist type no doubt ;-)

Now I just need a Sherpa who doesn't eat much to get this stuff 40 miles into the backcountry of WCPP.
 
zika
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10/17/2017 10:10PM  
Mr. Master. I will do some tests here also and send you results and parts. Give me a few weeks.
 
mastertangler
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10/18/2017 05:32AM  
quote zika: "Mr. Master. I will do some tests here also and send you results and parts. Give me a few weeks."


Aye Aye Captain.
 
Atb
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10/19/2017 03:37PM  


Now I just need a Sherpa who doesn't eat much to get this stuff 40 miles into the backcountry of WCPP. "


Semi-serious, if it's WCPP, why not fly-in, paddle out?
 
zika
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10/19/2017 11:38PM  
Mr. Master, Send your peltier back. Use the 12 V cooler for your vehicle. It will not be practical for canoe trip. I will build you something low electric power consumption, practical to portage and use in a canoe.
1. Duration of your trip?
2. Total crawlers needed?
3. The recommended optimum temp from the book?
4. Send me description/details of packing crawlers in smaller containers for conditioning.
I always meant to do this for myself but than Quetico outlawed bait. It will be fun. It will work. I am thinking about the old Stanley Coffee Thermos design. It kept coffee hot all day. Small opening to pour coffee out minimizing heat loss when opened. You will get bait through an opening in your cooler just large enough to get your hand in through the top. The lid will seal very well like the old coffee Thermos lid. The lid assy will consist of al bar going into the cooler with peltier junction thermally attached to Al bar on the outside of lid and a small fan. A thermostat measuring inside temp will turn peltier on an off. During cooling I am anticipating 1 to 2 amp. Once cooled I expect a 50 ma draw. A small opening well sealed lid and high R factor coolrr insulation will minimize peltier 1 to 2 amp draw time. After I test the duty cycle of peltier on off time I will have the battery requirement so please hold on.
 
zika
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10/20/2017 12:57AM  
Your 120 watt PS. Fully charged you can draw 1 amp for 10 hrs. The cooler I am working on will need a fraction of that.
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 05:38AM  
quote Atb: "



Now I just need a Sherpa who doesn't eat much to get this stuff 40 miles into the backcountry of WCPP. "



Semi-serious, if it's WCPP, why not fly-in, paddle out? "


I have considered it Atb.........but I am in for close to a month so there is no need to be overly concerned about time. Last time I was in WCPP I quadruple portaged and still made acceptable time. Granted I was busy from sunup to sundown but it worked just fine.

The next trip however has an abundance of portaging and I am looking to cut the gear a bit and just triple. A big batch of crawlers means my usual assortment of lure selections will need be paired down especially in the pike department. I may also have to leave some food behind ;-) Seriously, I usually bring about 25% of my food home from every trip.
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 05:49AM  
Zika

I am envious of your abilities. I am seriously lacking in the electrical department having achieved my only "D" in high school or college where I took the elective course DC fundamentals. I would love to be able put something like this together and I admire the creativity and ingenuity needed. Yes i'm blowing smoke, but its true ;-)


To answer your questions:
*trip length is 24 to 30 days
*minimum of 500 crawlers
*50/55 degrees is what I remember........still waiting for my used copy of Lunkers / Crawlers

I envision having the "Mother Ship" to keep and store the bulk of the crawlers and use a smaller container to fish out of. The Mother ship container may only be opened at most once per day and more likely once every two or three days since I could probably grab 50 at a time. The smaller container will be cooled via the evaporative effect achieved with a burlap bag.

Something you said earlier hit home with me..........the need to keep the conditioned crawlers cool lest they lose the water absorbed. That has the ring of truth to it and I can see the conditioned crawlers losing much of their advantage if kept in nominal conditions. When they shed that water it would have to go somewhere and that somewhere would be into my bedding. The shed wetness might cause me some grief as I might lose the entire batch if I am not careful.

As per the Mother Ship container I am still unsure. So far at least 3 options exist.

1) use two of the 1000 series Magic worm ranches (link above). Wally 13 has already confirmed that these will accommodate 500 crawlers but I suspect his were the normal sized smallish type of crawler (with all due respect etc. etc.)

2) the Igloo which has the advantage of a carry handle.

3) A rather bulky styrofoam cooler which is squarish in shape. It is thick and durable with an excellent lid. From the perspective of keeping the crawlers and utilizing insulation it is probably the best option. From the standpoint of transportability it is probably the worst but it can be done. Leave that to me. Naturally the priority must be arriving with product intact.

Any of the above 3 options can be sent to Zika Labs inc. unless you have another suggestion.
 
bigeyedfish
member (36)member
  
10/20/2017 07:20AM  
Anybody got any side by side pictures of these conditioned worms versus normal worms? I am curious to see the difference. Thanks
 
mastertangler
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10/20/2017 07:58AM  
quote bigeyedfish: "Anybody got any side by side pictures of these conditioned worms versus normal worms? I am curious to see the difference. Thanks"


Its difficult to explain. Not only are they bigger and fatter.........they are so much harder and livelier. Try it for yourself and see. You need to ditch the dirt and use commercially available moss bedding. Put your crawlers in an ordinary plastic worm container (I use a larger flat rubber maid plastic container but a regular worm container will work for an experimental basis). Then wet newspaper and crumple it into small balls. The newspaper needs be dripping wet slightly. Stack the balls into a heap so the lid is difficult to seal. Basically you stop the movement of the crawlers and force feed them water. The result is rather astonishing. This needs be done in a refrigerated environment for about a week if I remember correctly. They will literally be hard to hang onto. Big and squiggly!

If you fish clear water lakes there is no deadlier method IMO. Get the book if you fish clear water and especially if you fish highly pressured waters. Naturally heavy weed growth negates some of the advantages as does a major population of panfish which will make short work of your investment. But drop a conditioned crawler on a big smart fish with light line and a nose hooked crawler and they will eat it.

Specialized gear is helpful........the system wants 4 and 6lb line. Handling big fish on such sewing thread is not so easy. 8 ft rods are the norm and they typically do a wonderful job of protecting the line. The long rod also helps provide a better angle for fish fighting.......your always prying the fish up and off the bottom and out of trouble. Light line wants small light wire hooks to tie to (the Physics are good). The old standard was a 214 eagle claw in size #8. Tiny indeed! In extreme post cold front conditions size #10 was recommended. The long rod aids in not pulling hooks as well as setting them with efficiency. The next step is to master back reeling, the much preferred method to fighting big fish on ultra light tackle. It took me a little while to get the hang of it but its not so hard especially when done with the long rod.
 
mastertangler
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10/24/2017 01:03PM  
The Igloo cooler showed up........seems like it would be ideal to house 500+ super crawlers. It would be great if it worked. All in one with a nice carry handle. I will need to add a digital thermometer to keep track of whats going on inside. Next step is to see how long the battery will last. Is it energy efficient is the big question. Specs show it will get as cold as 39 degrees with an outside temp of 75. Probably would have to run it continuously for a long time to achieve that so I shouldn't have to worry to much about freezing them.

Just hoping I can maintain 50 to 60 degrees for a minimum of 3 days and hope I get a sunny day in that time frame. I wonder if the Bienno power pak can recharge via solar while in use? It has an Input and output switch. Inquiring minds want to know. I should probably email them.
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
10/25/2017 12:26AM  
Keep us posted. Will post my results when I get them.
 
mastertangler
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10/25/2017 06:40AM  
quote zika: "Keep us posted. Will post my results when I get them."


Thanks! I'm kind of amped up about all this. I never thought I would be abandoning Shadzillas so soon but something will have to give, I can't bring everything. Besides its a walleye trip.

Another thought howbeit a bit alarming (I keep pushing it down ;-) What if the lakes I am focusing on with "marginal" walleye populations have barely any ("Oh yea, I think I remember hearing something about a guy catching a walleye in this lake back in the 50's") Yikes!

 
Atb
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10/25/2017 01:23PM  
Thanks for recommending the book. I ordered an older used copy, and was pleased to receive the 2000 edition! I'd love to meet the previous owner, as the book is extensively dog-eared, highlighted and annotated. I bet they have a wealth of experience and stories to share.
 
mastertangler
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10/25/2017 02:35PM  
quote Atb: "Thanks for recommending the book. I ordered an older used copy, and was pleased to receive the 2000 edition! I'd love to meet the previous owner, as the book is extensively dog-eared, highlighted and annotated. I bet they have a wealth of experience and stories to share."


Ha! Mine has got a lot of yellow highlighting as well. Pretty good condition though. I will make myself read everything over again as there is probably some key pointers I have forgotten.
 
Atb
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10/25/2017 02:52PM  
Before this thread came up, I was already half-converted by my fall trip to the Shell-Lynx area. We were catching bass way more frequently on 1/3 crawlers than plastics. Walleye, however, seemed to favor the artificial.
 
zika
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11/19/2017 07:51PM  
Quote: Master Angler: Next step is to see how long the battery will last. Is it energy efficient is the big question.
Just hoping I can maintain 50 to 60 degrees for a minimum of 3 days and hope I get a sunny day in that time frame. I wonder if the Bienno power pak can recharge via solar while in use? It has an Input and output switch. Inquiring minds want to know. I should probably email them. "

- I am curious how long your fully charged Bienno will run your new cooler?
- My guess is you can charge with solar panel and power up your cooler at the same time. Other battery packs I have used can do this.
-I will put down my thoughts about a crawler conditioning cooler:
*Design parameters: Small, portable, efficient thermal and electrically. Minimum cold temp loss when opened.
*Most efficient design: Thermos Design using Peltier Junction.

1. Bottle, Vacuum Insulated (equivalent to 2" thick foam R value 6.5), wide mouthed, highest quality bottle. Curious about quality of the Yetti Rambler Bottle 64 oz.
2. Cold finger machined out of al. Rounded to not damage bait.
3. Peltier Junction, High quality, size of thermos cap diameter. I will make a controller circuit to measure temperature of finger (thermistor) and turn fan and peltier off to hold 50 deg F.
4. Thermal compound or pad to conduct heat to heatsink and conduct cold to finger from peltier junction.
5. Heatsink to conduct heat away from finger (hot side of peltier).
6. Fan to improve efficiency of heatsink (cooling).
7. Connector compatible with your Bienno Power Pak.
8. Thermos Lid: Modify lid that comes with thermos to pass the finger through it or make a lid of rubber or cork accommodating finger.
9. Thermistor. Thermally epoxied into finger and connected to controller board.
* Pros of Vacuum Insulated Bottle Design: Small opening minimizing cold loss. Thermos R value of 6.5 and that can be doubled if thermos enclosed in 2" foam. Minimizes battery power draw and should give days of conditioning on one charged Bienno pak.
* Cons of Vacuum Insulated Bottle Design: Battery wires attached to lid of thermos bottle making lid removal awkward.
 
mastertangler
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11/20/2017 07:09AM  
The board here at MT Enterprises is keenly interested Zika. Your people and ours would need meet to discuss royalties and production.

Looks very interesting does it not?

I have just picked up my canoe stuff from Michigan and am currently en-route back to Florida. I will give the battery / cooler combo a test run within the month.
 
mastertangler
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11/21/2017 07:10AM  
My Peltier Junction kit has FINALLY arrived. Slow train from China no doubt. I will rig that up with the Styrofoam cooler and see how it does and compare it against the Igloo. Hopefully all will be accomplished before Christmas and I get busy again.

Time to start putting my trip together now that all my tripping and fishing stuff is in one place. I like getting things in order little by little when I get a natural 15 minute break or when I press the pause button on a work out video. Feeling good but I'm not going to let work force my health backward and ruin my plans this year like it did last year. But I must admit, the Isle Royale trip was a pretty darn good consolation prize ;-)
 
zika
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11/21/2017 02:29PM  
Don't get discouraged with the amount of electrical power needed for your cooler and new peltier assembly. They are designed for big power sources. A backcountry bait conditioning system needs a high R factor container and quality, efficient, low power peltier electronics with control to turn off power at 45 deg f and turn on power at 65 deg F.
 
mastertangler
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11/21/2017 03:43PM  
I am hoping to keep my crawlers at 55 degrees. Occasionally going to 60 would be acceptable I think. At 70 I can see them dropping fluids and at 75 plus I can see one or two dying and possibly killing the entire batch via toxic fumes as they decompose.

45 degrees would likely consume to much power. So maybe the cooling via Peltier might need only be required say from noon to 6 P.M.???? Nights are typically rather cool at Woodland Caribou even in August. What I fear is an abnormal high temp period of 80 or 90 degree weather and then I am sunk without the ability to cool my storage container. 500 plus conditioned crawlers is a serious investment especially if the fishing strategy is primarily reliant on them. I do not consider the devices a "hassle" and thus compromising my tripping philosophy of "No hassles". Rather I see a big stinking mess of crawlers dying from excess heat as a hassle with nothing I can do about it unless I come prepared. 1 extra portage trip is what it will require. I might need an additional power source as well to power my depth finder.

The double Peltier kit I have obtained is heavy. Probably going at least 2 lbs. But it may just do the job admirably enough. I need an electronic temp gauge to keep track of whats going on inside. Any suggestions? How about pitfalls I needs be aware of? As per my custom I prefer quality.



 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/21/2017 06:56PM  
MT, Typo. I meant adjusting thermostat to keep bait 45 deg F to 55 deg F in the bait conditioning thermos. With the thermostat I hope it can run all the time. I think it will shut down for hours at a time. Look at specs on good thermos bottles and temp change in bottle over time.
 
mastertangler
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11/22/2017 06:43AM  
My plan Zika would be to have the "Mother Ship" subject to cooling and a smaller container capable of handling 50 at a time for actual fishing. I envision using the evaporative cooling method (wet Burlap sack) to keep the smaller container cool. If I run into a hot stretch of weather I can perhaps cut the number to 25 in the small container and replenish as needed thus minimizing the risk.

You have been instrumental in providing vision for this rather novel concept of using a power supply to cool super crawlers and keep them in "conditioned" shape.

I am having some difficulty envisioning getting a crawler out of a narrow mouthed thermos type container.

 
mastertangler
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11/22/2017 09:04AM  
Ha! Pie in the sky wishful thinking!

I couldn't wait to try out the Igloo with my Lithium Ion Biennio 120 watt battery. Plugged everything in and it whirled the fan for about 5 minutes until it overheated and destroyed the output plug in. Yikes! Can't forget to replace it.

The Igloo will make a very nice addition to my frequent van road trips however and I can put some decent food in there in the form of fruit and veggies. Some nice cold grapes will make for a good road snack. I will probably end up wondering how I ever got by without it.........and not having to get ice which ended up being a deal breaker after awhile.

Have I ever mentioned that you can get some evaporative cooling effects using a wet burlap bag? ;-)
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/22/2017 09:55AM  
Good Morning MT. After you bought the cooler and peltier assembly I read up on them and the power requirement. Yikes. A lot of power. But you had already purchased. So sorry I did not catch it sooner.

Send me your battery pack and I will fix it.

I am adding a constant current source circuit to my design to optimize battery performance.

I will build my peltier assembly this winter. I will install it in a 7 day cooler like yours and log interior temperature and current from battery.

I will purchase a thermos similar to this one below with a 5" to 6" mouth opening. The Yetti Rambler half gallon Jug. I will perform the same test.

Vacuum Thermos 6" mouth opening

From the testing you will be able to decide on what works best for you. Perhaps bulk stored in evaporation method, next stage half gallon jug for conditioning several days and than in a insulated container to fish out of. Or maybe the 7 day cooler is efficient enough to work the whole month with battery recharges from solar panel.

I have packed many flats of 500 crawlers into the Quetico covered with damp burlap including several heat spells of 90 deg F. These are not conditioned but they survived. Start with the healthiest crawlers from a good grower. Always wear rubber gloves handling them. Cull them every day and maintain correct moisture in bedding and newspaper.
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/22/2017 03:38PM  
Review below claims the Yeti 1 gal jug thermos kept water at 39 deg F for 11 hours (thermos not opened). I will retest this if MT is interested in this design approach. Surround the thermos with 2 inches of high R Factor foam insulation and R Factor doubles.

12 hr test of yeti 1 gal thermos jug

I am speculating that the Peltier Junction and Fan would only turn on several times a day. I want to design for 1 or 2 amps during turn on time. The controller electronics and current regulator and voltage regulator electronics will only draw a few mA during this off time.

How many crawlers will a gallon hold? How often would thermos have to be opened to aureate the bedding so crawlers can take in oxygen through their moist skin?
 
mastertangler
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11/23/2017 07:15AM  
Well this has been a fun experience Zika. Very kind of you to show such interest. The entire concept sort of caught my imagination as well.......plus I learned some things that I wouldn't of had we not had this interaction.

The female cigarette adapter is what has bit the dust and not anything with the battery. I will replace it........they might even do it at cost who knows. In any event it won't be very expensive.

Your thinking far exceeds mine as a 1 or 2 amp draw is certainly better than what I was pulling, 3.5 to 5 amps. However one must question will it actually work for the size of container I am considering using. The Yeti is a definite negatory. To expensive and one must strongly consider keeping air to the crawlers. I do not subscribe to the oft stated "overthinking" principle very often and typically see that as an exscuse to pardon inherent stupidity. But in this case I am slowly coming to the realization that I just might be guilty of such an offense particularly when one considers that crawlers have been brought into canoe country successfully for a very long time.

I will retreat to a Styrofoam worm Ranch position complete with air vents. My only concern is if I do condition my crawlers (much preferred for fishing) will they dump their acquired moisture into the bedding once they get out of 55 degree temps and create a big soggy mess which spells their demise? Seems like that is a possibility?? I dunno. Maybe I could bring a bit of dry bedding to factor in? Canadian crawlers which are purchased are so winky anymore I am loathe to fish non-conditioned crawlers via just a hook. I might have to just catch my own I guess like I used to but 500 or 750 is quite a pile.

You suggest using nitrile (rubber) gloves to handle the crawlers. So does "Lunkers love Nightcrawlers". Perhaps for differing reasons? The book does not want human odor.......I sense that you suggest it for the crawlers health? Care to expound a bit on your thinking?
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/23/2017 08:48AM  
My best bait was the 1000 crawlers I picked myself in the spring and than replenishment from a client in Iowa who got them from a farm kid who picked. I picked them from ground devoid of chemical treatments. Always handled with rubber gloves for the health of the crawlers. Diligent maintaining moisture content with lake water, culling weak crawlers. Kept bulk of crawlers under my cabin and moved a weeks worth of bait into the propane frig at a time.
It has been fun to toss ideas around with you and other guys on this site and with my friends here: Paul T on Peltier control and thermal characteristics of enclosures and Mike B on alternative ideas.
Paul T built a Peltier Temp Chamber in a 7 day cooler to life cycle lithium batteries under load years ago, hot and cold, long term testing. He has saved it in his storage space. His family has a serious health issue going on. When Paul frees up I will get the cooler and run some tests. Paul and I are optimistic. We really like the thermos idea though. Best regards to all of you on this thread over the holiday.
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/23/2017 12:06PM  
I will test the existing peltier cooler mentioned above to see if it is in the ball park of reasonable power consumption for our general knowledge and to see if more efficient design is worth pursing.

This will get me kicked off this forum for beating a subject to a pulp but here goes:

Mike B here gave me this idea. A propane bottle cools when being used to fuel a flame. I just touched the 5 gal tank cooking our turkey and it is cool to the touch.

What if a 1 lb Coleman propane bottle was place in the cooler and one did all the cooking on a propane stove. This would add to the cool energy into the cooler and less demand on the battery pack.

 
mastertangler
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11/24/2017 06:13AM  
Fascinating.........I would like to be a fly on the wall and listen in on the conversation with your like minded friends . Unfortunately I would be able to add little in substantive terms except to fetch coffee or tea, such as the case may be.

My Dad and I used to have a rectangular metal 3' x 6' container which we sunk into the ground on the edge of his garden with just several inches of the lip above ground. We filled it with compost and on one of those warm all night rains in the spring we would go picking. Worked great and we had nice crawlers for the entire summer.
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/24/2017 10:01AM  
MT. Good idea. A low shady spot in soil or sand. I think the bait will stay healthy.
 
zika
senior member (91)senior membersenior member
  
11/24/2017 10:01AM  
 
mastertangler
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11/25/2017 03:27PM  
quote zika: "MT. Good idea. A low shady spot in soil or sand. I think the bait will stay healthy."


It worked great for one summer.........so we assumed it would work again. We loaded it up the following year and come about mid summer every single crawler was gone. My dad thinks a vole or mole got into them and chomped.
 
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