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11/22/2017 01:30PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Hey guys,

I'm planning to resurrect my church's youth BWCA trip this coming summer.
I've made 10-20 BWCA trips in my time, but I've never been a leader of a larger group.
We plan to have approximately 10-15 youths and a few adults. We've tentatively planned on heading out of Ely.

A few questions I have for you all:

Can anyone recommend a decent route for novice paddlers in the area? I'd really like to stay away from big water and possible wind issues. I think it would be best to identify an area where there are an abundance of campsites.
I would like to stay away from the Fall/Basswood, Moose and snowbank.

Secondly, for those of you who have done this sort of thing, what should I keep in mind? Any advice is greatly needed.

Lastly, what is the best way to educate the kids about the wilderness and why the BWCA is so special? How do I get the 'leave no trace' and stewardship across in this situation?

Thanks!
 
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Savage Voyageur
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11/22/2017 02:51PM  
Not sure if you want kind of trip you are looking for. Choices are a loop trip and see new area every day, go a few days and return the same way, or paddle and base camp so we need more information.

There is a group forum below the main forums you want to check out called tripping with kids I think, you should read about.

billconner
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11/22/2017 03:37PM  
Lake One is the obvious choice but also among most popular. Pretty safe newbie route either east to Insula or west and south to the Gabbros. All routes into Bald Eagle or the Gabbros not bad for first timers. I would say solitude would be less on these.

Not sure why you feel compelled to avoid Snowbank. Good entry to a lot of routes.
Jackfish
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11/22/2017 04:14PM  
Random thoughts:

Have a minimum of two adults per crew, preferably over age 21. Three would be better.

Do plenty of training prior to the trip. DO NOT get to the first portage and have the kids carrying a canoe or heavy pack for the first time in their lives.

Make sure you practice working with stoves, etc., setting up tents and tarps, filtering water... all the things you will expect them to do on the trip.

You have plenty of canoe tripping experience. Make sure you do a good job communicating so EVERYONE understands what they're getting into. I did a 2-1/2 hour seminar for the Boy Scouts who were going to Northern Tier, complete with power point and every bit of gear that we'd be packing and tried to be very clear on the importance of all aspects of the trip. At the end, a Dad raised his hand and asked, "So, when you get to the campsites, are the tents already set up?" He was serious. No kidding.

You're doing a great thing by taking on this adventure (and that's what it will be). Planning, preparation and good communication throughout will give you the best shot at a successful and fun trip. Some of the kids will love it. Some may hate it. The rest will simply tolerate it. Every night, sit around the campfire, or at least in a group, and do a session of Thorns, Roses and Buds. Thorns being the toughest part of their day. Roses being the best part of their day and Buds being what they're looking forward to tomorrow. Everyone participates. It's amazing to hear every everyone's comments.

One thing is for sure - the kids will be very disorganized at the beginning of the trip. They'll be a well-oiled machine (or something very close) at the end.

And I wouldn't hesitate to enter at Snowbank and base your route on the conditions. Smooth glass? Head to Boot. Windy conditions? Head to Disappointment. Ima Lake and that area is a great area.
11/22/2017 04:32PM  
Kida get bored: Therefore number one tip is to move every day after a cook and eat breakfast. Set up and take down could be worth at least 3 hours when you allow them to do most of their own work. Also take cooking required evening meals. Time spent on all these chores will definitely create some tension and will in the end, help with bonding and the sense of accomplishment. Best wishes for a great trip.
Michwall2
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11/22/2017 07:29PM  
About Leave No Trace - There is Leave No Trace organization. They have a website with the LNT principles. There are also LNT trainers around the US. You might be able to schedule an LNT educator to come in and work with your group. Here is a link to the Leave No Trace website.

Leave No Trace
11/22/2017 09:18PM  
Keep in mind you will have to split into two groups and two permits. Party size maximum is nine so the two groups will not be able to mingle.
11/22/2017 11:41PM  
Thanks for the input!

To clarify, we will all be entering at the same point, but will be splitting into 2 or 3 groups/permits.

I would like to consider a loop type trip. I like the idea of traveling each day so that the kids don't get bored!

Any destination ideas?
Savage Voyageur
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11/22/2017 11:54PM  
Check out Sawbill Outfitters webpage here, Sawbill Outfitters. They show 3-4-5-6 day trips. You can stretch a 5 day trip into a 7 day trip with rest days. This will give you and the kids a needed day off to swim or fish.

Not sure if you told us but how many days are you going to be out? This will determine possible route suggestions.
mastertangler
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11/23/2017 06:01AM  
I am a safety conscious individual. With a large group of young folks in the bush the prospect of a trip altering accident is a possibility. Everyone, of course, wears a PFD, no exceptions.

Cooking is one of the greatest potentials for an accident and is one of the most common canoe country injuries. Particularly a hot pot or pan landing on a foot. For that reason I would insist that anyone cooking not do so in a sandals. They should be made aware that burns from cooking is one of the most common forms of injuries in the BWCA. (I read that once and now I can't remember where but it has the ring of truth).

The other red flag is processing firewood. Swinging axes and hatchets would be a no-no on my trips and anyone caught doing so would be in big trouble (as in not going again). I strongly suggest that you get the DVD "Forgotten Skills" from Piragis. Cliff Jacobson, who has led numerous scout troops into canoe country without injuries, delves into several helpful subjects. His method of safely processing firewood is worth the cost of the DVD alone. Besides, the DVD on a youth night might be a good way to whet their appetite.

Lastly I would insist on no portaging in Sandals and no front packing. If they wear sandals around camp I would advise the open toe wearers to be careful. Lastly, no swimming with bare feet. Tear a foot up and now you have problems.

My method would include "good cop, bad cop". You can be the nice guy and some other cat can be the bearer of bad news, "wear your PFD, no diving, no swimming without sandals, blah, blah etc. etc." ;-)
11/23/2017 06:08AM  
Depends on how hard you want them to work.
My first trip was with 3 friends with our 10 year old kids. All but one person were new news to the bdub. The first part of the trip all but one of the kids were whining about the work and taking the portages very slow so as to get us to come back and help them with the packs, which we didn't do by the way. By the end of the trip everyone of them carried their loads without a peep. It still is one of the most amazing transformations I've seen.
To give you some answers.
Mudro to Horse to Basswood to see the falls to back through TIncan to Mudro would be a short round trip with a couple of tougher portages thrown in.
Snowbank, Parent, Disappointment, Ensign, and out on Moose. Just make sure you get going early on Snowbank. Lots of different lakes, easy portages, plus a waterfall to play in if the water is low.
Challenge: instead of going to Mooselake form Ensign head on up to Knife lake then come out through Moose. Then everyone gets to say they made it to Canada.
Some thoughts for new news.
1. Make it sound harder then it is to make sure everyone is on board and they know they will have to work.
2. I always have an alternate route in case of adversity.
3. Everyone has to know before leaving that the decisions on where and what we are doing is a group vote and everyone has to abide by it. Including the "Camp Nazi". The only exception is something dangerous.
4. Make sure to have layover fun days. fishing, cliff jumping, swimming etc.
5. Make sure everyone has a job when you get to camp. You will need a camp job organizer (camp nazi) with each party. Otherwise some people will stand around because they don't know what needs to be done or maybe they're just lazy. You will also have those that get in the way because they want to be involved but don't know what to do.
6. Everyone puts up there own tent.
7. I like to assign meals to each person. I've some very interesting meals from just mack & cheese to almost gourmet.
DrBobDerrig
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11/23/2017 07:32AM  
quote Skarc75: "Thanks for the input!


To clarify, we will all be entering at the same point, but will be splitting into 2 or 3 groups/permits.


I would like to consider a loop type trip. I like the idea of traveling each day so that the kids don't get bored!


Any destination ideas? "


you better go in at different times or seriously consider two different EP. The temptation is too great to travel together and if you get checked with two groups that obviously know each other at the same EP or portage you will have a problem. We encountered a group(s) like this of scouts (!!!!) at horseshoe lake one time and we had to move they were so noisy. Make it a fun trip for all. If you go at Lake one... One group go towards Lake 1 and the other go down river.

dr bob
11/23/2017 08:41AM  
quote DrBobDerrig: "
quote Skarc75: "Thanks for the input!



To clarify, we will all be entering at the same point, but will be splitting into 2 or 3 groups/permits.



I would like to consider a loop type trip. I like the idea of traveling each day so that the kids don't get bored!



Any destination ideas? "



you better go in at different times or seriously consider two different EP. The temptation is too great to travel together and if you get checked with two groups that obviously know each other at the same EP or portage you will have a problem. We encountered a group(s) like this of scouts (!!!!) at horseshoe lake one time and we had to move they were so noisy. Make it a fun trip for all. If you go at Lake one... One group go towards Lake 1 and the other go down river.


dr bob"


I appreciate your concern.

When I trip, I don't want to hear humans, and I will treat this trip as such. Groups will be staggered by 4 hours and hopefully camp at different lakes. I will not allow the groups to gather.
Grandma L
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11/23/2017 11:47AM  
You could think about lake One to Snowbank and the second trip doing Snowbank to One. trade car keys and each will have a vehicle waiting for them.
Do a couple of practice trips on a local lake and maybe and overnight to get portage and tenting practice.
Voyageur North Outfitters has great bunk house facilities for big groups and has given my church group a discount.
TrekScouter
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11/23/2017 04:44PM  
Never do for a youth what he or she can do for themself.
rdricker
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11/23/2017 11:43PM  
Jackfish covered it pretty well.

I've taken two groups of Scouts into Quetico now, An all girls crew and an all boys crew. It is an awesome experience for the youth if done well.

Make sure that your groups aren't travelling the same route. The temptation to bunch up is too great and you WILL get busted. Options are female and male groups; younger and older groups (with easier and harder/longer routes); or mixed groups where the older ones help out the younger.

Have the youth do as much as possible (which is pretty much everything). With the exception of paddling and portaging, and maybe assigned chores, the adult role should be safety. Let them make little mistakes. Have them plan as much of the trip as possible. Discuss the things that they'd like to see/do and recommend lakes to them. Discuss what meals they will do if the outfitter has options. Make sure they know that they don't have to stick to dehydrated meals! Have each group elect a leader that is in charge during the trip; then work with them so that they understand that their job is to organize and lead, not dictate. Have them pick a chaplain who's job it is to look after religious duties such as assigning meal prayer, planning a service (nothing is more inspiring that a service in the wilderness if done right), and the mental well being of the group.

Practice trips, including not only paddling, portaging and camp duties, but also navigation.

Especially if they are younger, but I'd recommend for everyone that you get Kevlar canoes. They are so worth it, especially for those that are not used to portaging. Additionally you can get the longer three person version that gives more portage flexibility for carrying gear.

I've done a dawn paddle each trip and the youth always love it, even if you (and they) at first think they won't. Getting up, packing and heading out onto the lake to watch the sunrise over God's creation is an amazing experience. It also gets you into camp around noon that day and gives them a relaxing evening. They are always tired, but it has always been the highlight of the trip for them.

Consider using larger group tents for the youth (same sex), instead of two man tents, if the outfitter provides them. They take up less room for the group and it will give them further chances to bond, play cards, chat with each other in the evening after the mosquitos come out.

The experience will be as rewarding for you as them. Plan a great celebration dinner at a restaurant your first night back for the water or on your trip home...it's a great celebration of their accomplishment. Then plan a party for the group about a month after you get back....have someone put together a slideshow from photos and movies and it gives the group a great chance to reminisce.

Oh..and hammocks...Not sure how much outdoors your youth do, but I'd limit the hammock camping. The reason being is that most sites that I've experienced only have appropriate hanging areas for at most 3-4 hammocks (maybe BWCA sites are cleared more and you can put more?). Also, they will definitely want something with mosquito netting if they don't have it on their hammock...and they will want a sleeping pad or something similar under them...the Tiger mosquitos that have moved in can bite right through hammock material and they will find their way into the space between an underquilt and the hammock!

Every time that I've taken a youth group out on a long trip like this it's is so rewarding for me as well!
bottomtothetap
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11/24/2017 09:24AM  
A lot of great advice here that based on 14 years experience of leading church-sponsored youth trips I would certainly agree with. I might also add a few other things I've learned:

1. In pre-trip orientation, present a gear list that you have developed and emphasize the importance of everyone sticking to it. Point out how this is a team effort and how it's not fair to others who have brought the advised gear to carry all of the "extras" someone else has brought along. You may want to consider a "pack check" before launching and weed out any not-needed items that have managed to work their way into the gear. Often times these are things that the youth did not bring as they were abiding by your list but were lovingly packed by mom or dad "just in case". There will sometimes be exceptions that you'll need to be prepared to make a judgement call about such as something that just might be fun to have or might be worth trying.

2. Instill the mentality that your group is a team (with recognized adult leaders) and that everyone is in it equally together. This will help prevent divisions within in your group that may have been seeded by pre-trip friendships or differences. This dynamic will often need monitoring throughout the trip, with leaders being watchful for any youth who is starting to feel isolated and therefore susceptible to homesickness.

3. When planning the food, urge anyone with special dietary considerations to speak up. Youth are often shy to say anything beforehand but point out why it is important to do so. If the menu consists of items they can't or don't want to eat, there are no alternatives out in the middle of the wilderness and they will go hungry.

4. If your church is sponsoring the trip, use campfire time to incorporate some scripture or church-based values and discuss how they encourage stewardship or otherwise relate to your adventure. Be prepared with some specifics--maybe written down-- to start the discussion.

5. The best way to pass along the wilderness ethics and values is to teach by example and explain why you are conducting yourself and guiding the trip in a certain way. Keep an eye out for the "teachable moments" and take advantage of them. Personally, I liked to step in early at such times preferring to not subject the youth to "learning from failure". I think it's beneficial for them not to feel stupid or embarrassed from an avoidable error.

6. I've found that tweens and early teens are often on the cusp of growing past the mentality of "me first" or feeling that they have to ask permission of an adult first before doing anything. A BWCA trip is a wonderful opportunity to help them achieve that growth. When I started guiding youth on canoe trips, it was an eye opener for me to note how often I was asked permission for such simple tasks as going to the latrine or, for instance, choosing to wear their sweatshirt rather than their jacket. I was also surprised to regularly hear pronouncements like "I'm claiming" such and such in what seemed like a competition with the others to gain advantage in various situations. Our trip goals included stamping out "me first", the encouragement to think of others first and to create the confidence to make good and responsible decisions for themselves. If you're able to accomplish that, your trip will have succeeded. One of the most fulfilling aspects for me of the whole guiding experience was when I'd hear post trip from a parent who'd say something like "My daughter went on this trip as a girl and returned a young lady!"

Regarding routes, we've done well out of Ely on the Kawishiwi triangle off of Lake One or the Farm/White Iron area or, if you can handle just a bit more challenging start, we've liked the Crab/Cummings area with an entry and exit from Burntside. While it did touch a bit on Basswood and Moose, we also had success with the Wood, Good and Wind lake area. Some of these options involved a drop off and/or pick-up so we could continue to see something new and avoid backtracking.

Good luck with your program and have fun!
11/24/2017 09:46AM  
quote rdricker: "Jackfish covered it pretty well.


I've taken two groups of Scouts into Quetico now, An all girls crew and an all boys crew. It is an awesome experience for the youth if done well.


Make sure that your groups aren't travelling the same route. The temptation to bunch up is too great and you WILL get busted. Options are female and male groups; younger and older groups (with easier and harder/longer routes); or mixed groups where the older ones help out the younger.


Have the youth do as much as possible (which is pretty much everything). With the exception of paddling and portaging, and maybe assigned chores, the adult role should be safety. Let them make little mistakes. Have them plan as much of the trip as possible. Discuss the things that they'd like to see/do and recommend lakes to them. Discuss what meals they will do if the outfitter has options. Make sure they know that they don't have to stick to dehydrated meals! Have each group elect a leader that is in charge during the trip; then work with them so that they understand that their job is to organize and lead, not dictate. Have them pick a chaplain who's job it is to look after religious duties such as assigning meal prayer, planning a service (nothing is more inspiring that a service in the wilderness if done right), and the mental well being of the group.


Practice trips, including not only paddling, portaging and camp duties, but also navigation.


Especially if they are younger, but I'd recommend for everyone that you get Kevlar canoes. They are so worth it, especially for those that are not used to portaging. Additionally you can get the longer three person version that gives more portage flexibility for carrying gear.


I've done a dawn paddle each trip and the youth always love it, even if you (and they) at first think they won't. Getting up, packing and heading out onto the lake to watch the sunrise over God's creation is an amazing experience. It also gets you into camp around noon that day and gives them a relaxing evening. They are always tired, but it has always been the highlight of the trip for them.


Consider using larger group tents for the youth (same sex), instead of two man tents, if the outfitter provides them. They take up less room for the group and it will give them further chances to bond, play cards, chat with each other in the evening after the mosquitos come out.


The experience will be as rewarding for you as them. Plan a great celebration dinner at a restaurant your first night back for the water or on your trip home...it's a great celebration of their accomplishment. Then plan a party for the group about a month after you get back....have someone put together a slideshow from photos and movies and it gives the group a great chance to reminisce.

Oh..and hammocks...Not sure how much outdoors your youth do, but I'd limit the hammock camping. The reason being is that most sites that I've experienced only have appropriate hanging areas for at most 3-4 hammocks (maybe BWCA sites are cleared more and you can put more?). Also, they will definitely want something with mosquito netting if they don't have it on their hammock...and they will want a sleeping pad or something similar under them...the Tiger mosquitos that have moved in can bite right through hammock material and they will find their way into the space between an underquilt and the hammock!

Every time that I've taken a youth group out on a long trip like this it's is so rewarding for me as well!
"


Thank you for the help!

We are located down in the northwest suburbs of Minneapolis/St. Paul.
What do you recommend for practice trips? It obviously would not be feasible to bring the kids all the way up the the BWCA twice. But, should I try to schedule an overnight at a local state park? Maybe try out portaging/setting up camp, and possibly getting into canoes?
11/24/2017 01:48PM  
For the youth group and scout veterans, two or three to a canoe? Pros and cons?
bottomtothetap
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11/24/2017 02:45PM  
quote TomP: "For the youth group and scout veterans, two or three to a canoe? Pros and cons?"


I like two to a canoe unless you have an odd number of people. THEN do three to one canoe--with that canoe a longer one made for three people--and two people to the other canoe(s). Pros of this is more room for everyone--someone riding "garbage" makes it all a bit tight--and better paddling. The three person canoes just don't paddle as well. They are bigger for two people to paddle and when you try to involve the middle person in paddling it is harder to keep a straight track and efficient rhythm, especially with newbie paddlers. An advantage of three per canoe might be that you have more people to carry gear and could make it over the portages with less time and effort.

I've never traveled in a group of nine but maybe then 3 three-person canoes might have merit. As stated above, you may be able to portage easier and quicker and from a budget standpoint, if you are renting your canoes, three 3-person canoes might cost less total than four tandems.
11/24/2017 05:03PM  
Lots of good advice already stated. You don’t want to starve the kids but make sure they understand that the food has to last the duration of the trip. That goes for TP too. I always kept my own TP stash. Believe me, you’ll thank me later. Don’t worry about easy or difficult routes. They will be able to handle it. My first trip I did with students we entered through Stuart River: baptism by fire. They did great. All inner city youth with no outdoor experience.
DrBobDerrig
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11/24/2017 05:45PM  
Ideas for a trip...read about it in BWJ and would really like to do it if I ever could swing it. One group go in Kawishiwi Lake EP and out Lake One EP and the other group do the opposite. Vehicles would be at each end and could meet up at Fall Lake or outfitter afterwards. Kawisihwi Lake CG is a nice small CG.


dr bob
Jackfish
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11/24/2017 10:16PM  
quote TomP: "For the youth group and scout veterans, two or three to a canoe? Pros and cons?"

If each canoe is a self-contained unit and packed well, having three per canoe can be the most efficient way to travel. At the portages, one person takes the gear pack, one takes the food (or second) pack and one takes the canoe. They can take turns with the packs and canoe.

As for the person who rides in the middle... who the heck calls this person “garbage”? I’ve heard this before and it’s always been a head scratcher. This person isn’t garbage at all. He or she can catch a rest in this position (great for kid groups unaccustomed to the rigors of a canoe trip) or they can help paddle when needed. We call it the duffer position, or riding duffer.
rdricker
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11/24/2017 10:24PM  
quote TomP: "For the youth group and scout veterans, two or three to a canoe? Pros and cons?"


I've always done 3 man Kevlar canoes with a group of 9, so I can only speak to that. We've used traditional Duluth style packs for gear with each person having a 30 liter dry bag (3 to a pack and tent/misc items in the pack). A separate equipment pack, and separate one or two food packs.

There are some advantages to this style. When portaging, each person gets either a Duluth pack, an equipment/food pack, or a canoe and you can single portage. This allows single portaging, which is a huge time saver. It also has the advantage of keeping the food contained and together to easily hang for the night (you just hang the food bags). The Kevlar canoes that we've gotten were the 20' Wenonah Minnesota 3. They had a third middle seat so that that person isn't 'duffing'. They are also wider 36" than many two person canoes making them a little more stable. I've found that usually after Day 1 three paddling works once everyone gets used to it. You'll probably find that with inexperienced youth, they'll zigzag in the beginning no matter what kind of canoes you get. If using another pack system, a two man canoe setup might work as well as a three. Also the center person can be navigating.

I've found several advantages of the 30 liter dribag system. It forces everyone to control their gear. It gives them their own bag for their stuff. It limits just how much they can bring. (all their gear including sleeping bag and pad, unless its closed cell foam, has to fit in the bag). It makes them responsible for making sure it is closed to keep their gear dry. I've found that the thick vinyl bags are the ones that are durable and work best. They are in the boating dept and not the camping dept. If you look you can usually find them for $15-$30.

As for prep trips. As long as they get on the water for the day, have a change to work out camp duties, then it works ok. Usually a really large lake that you can camp on will work well. I'm not sure what kind of equipment that you have available. If your church has a Scout group, you may be able to borrow from them. Barring that, if your group doesn't have any, maybe there are enough outdoors adults around that you can get some for the prep trips.

If you are getting Kevlar, enforce wet portaging from the beginning or you are liable to wind up with a hefty repair bill from the outfitter.

For fishing gear, I've found that usually 3-4 poles with a single tackle kit adequate. Just get some paracord to tie it against the gunwale. It will then stay nice and secure during portaging.

I'm sure that you already know this, but as has been said, check their gear. Make sure that they know they should avoid cotton and lean towards synthetics. I'm a huge lover of Jungle boots (American made kind), but I've seen old hiking boots with drilled holes for drainage and I've even seen tennis shoes but wouldn't recommend that.

Establish your safety rules early and enforce them....With youth I always say no solo canoes (must be two for rescue), PFDs ANY time they are in or on the water (this prevents the "we didn't think it applied to this").
bottomtothetap
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11/25/2017 10:19AM  
quote Jackfish: "
quote TomP: "For the youth group and scout veterans, two or three to a canoe? Pros and cons?"

If each canoe is a self-contained unit and packed well, having three per canoe can be the most efficient way to travel. At the portages, one person takes the gear pack, one takes the food (or second) pack and one takes the canoe. They can take turns with the packs and canoe.


As for the person who rides in the middle... who the heck calls this person “garbage”? I’ve heard this before and it’s always been a head scratcher. This person isn’t garbage at all. He or she can catch a rest in this position (great for kid groups unaccustomed to the rigors of a canoe trip) or they can help paddle when needed. We call it the duffer position, or riding duffer. "


We adopted the term "garbage" as joking slang for the middle rider, from the hardcore philosophy that EVERYTHING to be portaged should go in a pack and if it doesn't it's just extra loose garbage. On three-to-a-canoe trips that I've been on no one has ever been offended by this and in fact many have embraced the term requesting to "ride garbage" knowing the break from paddling it could provide. To me it's just another name for the middle rider and in the right context whatever you want to call them works for me even with potential negative conotations. middle of the canoe person
11/25/2017 11:51AM  
AS AN ALTERNATIVE THOUGHT ABOUR THE DUFFER IN THE CENTER OF THE 3 PERSON CANOE: WE FOUND WITH SCOUTS BOREDOM AND GETTING COLD IF THE WEATHER IS NOT GOOD ARE PROBLEMS SOLVED IF YOU GIVE THEM A PADDLE AND THEY USE IT EVEN IF NOT MUCH ADDITIONAL HEADWAY IS ACHIEVED. DODGING SUBMARINES ACTUALLY TAKES ADDITIONAL TIME ON ANY GIVEN LAKE AND THE STERN MAN SHOULD LEARN TO COMPENSATE DIRECTION.

IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THE STERN MAN HAS FULL AUTHORITY TO "ORDER" THE OTHER PADDLER(S) TO SWITCH SIDES IF CONDITIONS WARRANT.

I WOULD NOT HAVE 4 HOUR STAGGERED STARTS. GO IN DIFFERENT ENTRY POINTS WHICH ARE NEXT DOOR TO EACH OTHER. SOLVES THE PROBLEMS DEFINED ABOVE AND THE EXCITEMENT OF GETTING STARTED WILL NOT BE MET WITH A DELAY.
11/27/2017 08:30AM  
I've taken several scout groups on BWCA/Q trips. I start about 4 to 6 months in advance with monthly organizational meetings and a canoe weekend camp out. Make sure the adults can handle the work as well.
We try to do loops in opposite directions. My next loop will be out of the Clearwater EP to Mountain, Moose, Fowls, Pine and Caribou. With large groups you need to start finding camp sites early. We try to travel between 10 and 2. Don't try to do all the work yourself. Let them get involved and allow them to make some mistakes.
11/27/2017 10:21AM  
And don't assume anything is common knowledge or sense. Do a shake down the day of departure. Youth and parents always try to add more food or gear in packs.
DrBobDerrig
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11/30/2017 10:20AM  
quote AmarilloJim: "And don't assume anything is common knowledge or sense. Do a shake down the day of departure. Youth and parents always try to add more food or gear in packs."


with teenagers...extra food may not be a bad thing
:-)
dr bob
12/05/2017 10:57AM  
quote DrBobDerrig: "
quote AmarilloJim: "And don't assume anything is common knowledge or sense. Do a shake down the day of departure. Youth and parents always try to add more food or gear in packs."



with teenagers...extra food may not be a bad thing
:-)
dr bob"


I fully agree when stored in a secure food pack. But it is usually undisclosed and in the tents.
BuckFlicks
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12/05/2017 05:41PM  
When I was in high school, our church youth group took a river canoe trip in central Texas every year. We didn't have the restriction of a limit on group size. We pretty much clogged up the river because we were inexperienced, slow, and teenagers more interested in socializing and gabbing than making progress (12 hours to go 8 miles on a river with no camping gear and no portages other than to skirt rapids) and there were at least 20 boats. Looking back, when I see that kind of group in my adult life now, I paddle as hard as I can to get past it as soon as I can. I don't begrudge them being there (I loved those trips when I was a kid) but I also didn't want to be around it. I'm glad you're taking the initiative to limit noise, traces, and the other types of pollution that large groups leave.

When we reached our designated campsites, our youth minister used to go through everyone's gear with a fine toothed comb, in order to root out booze and drugs. Yes, even church kids are capable of such behavior. We were all in high school... don't know how old the kids you're taking, but be aware that in a group that size, at least one will likely try to sneak something along.

I like the idea someone mentioned about making it seem harder that it really is when having pre-trip meetings. That way, the kids will immediately gain a boost of confidence as soon as they pass the first hurdle they were dreading (like a long or steep portage) and they will attack the remaining obstacles with enthusiasm instead of dread.

Michwall2
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12/06/2017 08:34AM  
quote AmarilloJim: "
quote DrBobDerrig: "
quote AmarilloJim: "And don't assume anything is common knowledge or sense. Do a shake down the day of departure. Youth and parents always try to add more food or gear in packs."




with teenagers...extra food may not be a bad thing
:-)
dr bob"



I fully agree when stored in a secure food pack. But it is usually undisclosed and in the tents."


In my experience, a low-blood-sugar teenager is about the most dangerous animal in the woods. Why not short-circuit the "sneaky" part and allow them to bring one item of "comfort/choice" food along that is theirs to eat alone. Their bag of Oreos, gum, crackers, nutrition bars, etc. set a weight/number limit. Let them carry one item from their bag with them for the day. Make a big deal of returning any uneaten food to the food bag before turn in to reinforce the "absolutely no food in the tents" concept. Frankly, I think that most kids would rat-out a tent partner with food to keep a bear out of their tent!?

Just a thought.
12/06/2017 09:44AM  
I've taken about 100 scouts into wilderness camping situations so I'm not the most experienced but I do think I have a feel for some of the more common pit falls. We will allow younger scouts than most troops on our wilderness trips , so my experiences may be tainted a little also. When it comes to food in the tents I find that 90% of the kids follow the rules to the letter. Of the other 10% most forgot about it being in their packs or pockets. Some other excuses I've heard:
It was sealed in a packet or zip lock
It was in my pack
It was under the vestibule not "in" the tent
I didn't know that candy was considered "food"
We didn't have bears last night

We usually start preparing for our big trips 6 months in advance with lectures, videos and special camp outs. So I know the kids and the parents have heard the rules at least a dozen times before the trips.

We will stop for breaks and snacks every 90 minutes or so while traveling and we have marshmallows, smores and hot chocolate every night.

With youth they all don't like to paddle, portage or fish so the days ALWAYS revolve around meals. As others have stated, take plenty or better yet more than you think you need. Rarely do you have much in the way of left overs.
rdricker
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12/07/2017 01:15AM  
When it comes to food, you'll most likely find two ends of the spectrum. Those that are always hungry and those who aren't eating as much as they need to. Additionally, really watch water intake. Dehydration will sneak up on them and make them feel ill and unable to function. A lot of times all it takes is some hydration to perk them right back up.

Something else that I thought of. It's always nice to have a short day or a down day somewhere in the middle to allow them to relax, chill, fish and swim.
12/18/2017 11:33AM  
Skarc75: "
quote rdricker: "
"



Thank you for the help!


We are located down in the northwest suburbs of Minneapolis/St. Paul.
What do you recommend for practice trips? It obviously would not be feasible to bring the kids all the way up the the BWCA twice. But, should I try to schedule an overnight at a local state park? Maybe try out portaging/setting up camp, and possibly getting into canoes?"


Good for you to take a group of youth!

If you can make it down to Lebanon Hills in Eagan with some canoes and packs, it is a perfect training ground for what to expect. There is a small chain of lakes with short portages that allow for practicing loading/launching/paddling.

As for a route, you could go in different entry points and travel to the "other groups" vehicles. Example one group could go in Little Indian Sioux (EP 14) and the other Nina Moose (EP 16). There are multiple longer and shorter routes available.

Avoid trying to go too far the first day. Get in and get to a campsite. I agree with others that moving most days is good, but be flexible enough that if you get a 5 star campsite with good swimming options, take advantage of it.

Appreciated to the recommendations to make it a habit to reflect on the day. (Thorns, Roses and buds) That is good life advice as well.

 
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