I bought Pioneer packs for me and the wife unit. Both of us will be in solo canoes, me in a prism, her in a 12 ft Hornbeck.

How do you trim a solo with only 1 pack? The Prism has a moveable tractor seat so I think I will move the seat forward and put the pack behind me, but her Hornbeck has a fixed seat. Should I try to take both packs in the Prism?

The goal is single portage, which is why I bought two larger packs.

Jim Hegi from Canoestories.com I thought had a good way to address that. He made two smaller packs that he attached to a frame or something. It'll depend on winds... When going with the wind put it behind you, and in front when going into the wind. But you could put a portion of each pioneer in a drybag that could be pulled out and placed opposite end of the canoe from your pioneer to trim. Then toss in the pack on the portage and go.

quote nctry: "Jim Hegi from Canoestories.com I thought had a good way to address that. He made two smaller packs that he attached to a frame or something. It'll depend on winds... When going with the wind put it behind you, and in front when going into the wind. But you could put a portion of each pioneer in a drybag that could be pulled out and placed opposite end of the canoe from your pioneer to trim. Then toss in the pack on the portage and go."

So simple, thanks

I pack some of my gear in a duffel bag I can pull out of my portage pack. I put the duffel in front, the pack behind while paddling. I slide the duffel forward or aft to adjust trim. When I hit a portage, I put the duffel in the pack -- or if it's just a few rods I may carry it by its own straps. I double-portage.

I double portage, too, since 80-90 lbs., or anything even close to it is more than I can safely carry over a portage, even a relatively smooth flat one. I don't know about you and your wife, but you might want to go with the idea of possibly double portaging, in which case it would make sense to pack some of the stuff in a small, light daypack for trimming the canoe. Then if you do want to double portage, you'll have a small pack to carry with the canoes to even out the weight of the loads.

I would do the dry bag method like previously mentioned. Make sure it can easily be placed in the pack during portages so it's not a big hassle. Some people will say use a rock. I think that's a bad idea

Probably the easiest and most efficient way to solve your trim dilemma is to put both packs in your Prism as you've mentioned.

Otherwise, you might want to use something like a Reliance 5-gallon collapsible water jug for ballast and a trim solution. Fully filled, it would provide approximately 42-pounds of weight. Naturally you could adjust the volume of water in the jug to regulate the desired weight and trim.

Obviously this solution would require filling and emptying the jug before and after every portage to avoid lugging a 42-pound "trim equalizer" across the portages.

In the event you took both packs in your Prism, you could also use the aforementioned water jug if your wife would like to slightly trim one of the ends of her canoe to offset the effect of a head wind or tailwind. When empty, the jug only weighs .65-pounds and wouldn't take up much space when collapsed.

Due to the fact I would never be mistaken for a minimalist and I double portage, having to deal with how to trim a solo canoe with only one pack is a problem I have never had. :-)

Hans Solo

Do you think both packs in the prism might slow me down enough to make our speed more equal? We are hearing her hornbeck(never paddled yet) is going to be slower then the prism. Maybe this will be that “blessing in disguise” i hear about?

Skin friction and horsepower are the two main forces at work The theoretical hull speed of the Prism is about 6 mph given enough horsepower to overcome skin friction.
The Hornbeck has a theoretical hull speed of 5. But with less skin its more easily brought to that speed by smaller paddlers.


Perhaps I am misreading but what are your goals in this trip? Speed? Just slow down.. What will happen with more load in the Prism is that the bow will be dug in deeper making it harder to turn.

I have single portaged a few times in areas I know very well.. But its hardly my norm and never done in a new area.
Have you practiced loading and portaging your canoes at home? My guess is that the BWCA is going to give you a bit of a shock at how not so easy it can be. Don't forget to figure out how to deal with paddles and PFD while you walk as well as how to stay hydrated. Also if you have a day pack in front of you you can reach essentials on the water rather than trying to turn around and retreive from something in back of you. Remember head outside of gunwales ( as in turning around to look in back) is the chief cause of capsize.
Just leave room in that big monster pack.
And remember if conditions are such that carrying canoe and pack at one time is unwise remember no one is faulting you for double portaging. As I like to fiddle with camera I love that walk back.

How is she carrying the Hornbeck? Over the shoulder hurts quite quickly and twists your spine ( I have a RapidFire and have tried it! ow.)
In the Adirondacks I have seen Hornbeck people use something like a Knu-Pac . A backpack frame with u shaped horns that go around that thwart in back of the seat.
Its very uncomfortable to carry on your head( and you can't see).. I have seen some just balance on a tall pack but on a well smoothed out portage.. not the BWCA.

Do try and do a shakedown pack and portage at home.

He's asking about speed because on the planning forum some of us questioned the choice of boats and that the Hornbeck is both shorter and wider, thus slowing it down. Maybe that won’t be a big deal. I think placement of packs is one more variable to try when paddling in the spring and getting beyond theory to reality.

I wouldn’t want to put everything in the prism for two reasons. First, it is possible to get separated and both people should have some gear for safety. Second, the ability to trim for different wind directions is useful. But that doesn’t mean it has to be 50-50.

In the end, I’ve found one of the lessons of leading trips is to realize that every pair of people is different and needs to find their own best balance. And the only way to find it is to try things. It could turn out that one of them is just a more efficient paddler, overcoming all equipment choices.

Wick: "Do you think both packs in the prism might slow me down enough to make our speed more equal? We are hearing her hornbeck(never paddled yet) is going to be slower then the prism. Maybe this will be that “blessing in disguise” i hear about? "

I think your getting into "over thinking".
Sooner or latter you will get some experience and insight into how you and your wife will handle things. Too often one persons "best way" winds up a total failure for the way you will do it!

Options and adaptability are mostly "thinking traits".

butthead

Yellowcanoe makes some very good points. My advice would be to do your first trip with the idea of double portaging. It's what most people do. Many portages are rocky, some to the extent of seeming to be nothing but rocks or roots, both of which can be very slippery. Others are muddy and you may be trying to balance on logs to keep from sinking knee-deep. Some are steep in addition to rocks and roots and sometimes require a large step up or down, which can be quite difficult with 40 lbs., much less 60 or 75 lbs.

On the average 1/4 mile portage, double portaging will be a heck of a lot easier and will only take maybe another 15 minutes +/-. Not worth falling and breaking something by trying to carry too much. Relax and enjoy yourself - and make sure your wife does too.

Like yellowcanoe I use the extra walk to eat lunch/snacks, drink water, and take pictures, so it's not totally lost time either. It's a good break for my back, especially the unlkoaded walk.

butthead: "


I think your getting into "over thinking".




butthead"

highly possible. I am going crazy waiting on sept to come around.

yellowcanoe: "Skin friction and horsepower are the two main forces at work. The theoretical hull speed of the Prism is about 6 mph given enough horsepower to overcome skin friction. The Hornbeck has a theoretical hull speed of 5. But with less skin its more easily brought to that speed by smaller paddlers. "

That's why several solo canoes manufacturers have designed "sized" solo canoes for different paddlers. My wife and I often paddle our Sawyer solo canoes together. Mine is a Shockwave at 16' 8" with a 4" waterline width of 28 3/4" and hers is a Summersong at 15' 4" with a 4" waterline at 26 1/2". (pictured below) Blackhawk and Sawyer, (just to name a few), designed different models to address different sized paddlers. Under the direction of Vice President of Marketing, Harry Roberts, Sawyer marketed their solo canoe line as "Low Energy Requirement, (LER)" hull designs; basically what yellowcanoe mentioned above.

That being said, there are other factors involved. No two paddlers are created equal. What type of paddles or paddling style are you using? Is one of you a more aggressive paddler? Would either of you use a double-blade while the other is using a bent shaft and paddling "sit and switch"? Maybe one or both of you use a straight shaft paddle and apply more "traditional" paddling techniques. My point is, if you're looking for matched performance on the water, the are several factors to consider in addition to canoe design and load weight.

My wife and I will either use a carbon bent shaft paddle and paddle "sit and switch", or Werner carbon fiber double-blade paddles. Although we try to match our paddling styles and equipment as best we can, she is not as aggressive as I am despite her being a very proficient paddler. That often necessitates me having to slow down, regardless of how well our canoes our matched to our body types.

So aside from portaging concerns, on the water performance may not be the best match. IMHO, a Wenonah Prism and a Hornbeck 12 is a bit of a mismatch. It's a matter of adjusting your pace accordingly.

Just my two cents

Hans Solo

I have been soloing since the early 1980's and by the 1990's got several #2 Duluth packs which are easily moved about to trim the boat. I never concerned myself with single portaging. Like other commenters I actually enjoy the return walks.

I think its good to anticipate what might happen.. Take that virtual trip.

That said whatever you find out on your trip is adjustable. Single portaging dangerous? Just make the next one a double. Tired? Rest. Heavy? Break down the packs.
Its not a competition but rather a foundation of memories.

Sometimes the best solution is just to try it. That said I would do some experiments on load carrying at home.

I also agree that to double portage is not a bad thing for several reasons. Safety first and foremost, but solo canoes just trim better with a pack fore and aft of the paddle station.

Hans Solo

This message has had HTML content edited out of it.
To expand on what nctry said: Trimming pack weight is all about distance fore and aft from the center of the boat.

Here's how it's done:
1). Put the large pack right behind the seat. The closer to the center it is, the less it will affect trim.

2). Have something ~10 lbs that you can use to ballast the bow of the boat. A water bag is fine, but also is required to be emptied/filled/fussed with at each portage. Use something you already have. Food is usually dense and heavy. Keep the food bag in the top of the main pack for portage, but take it out and push it up in the bow to adjust as you need. Or a daypack, etc. Use the handle of your paddle to push/pull bags front and back as you need to adjust trim.

If you ignore hull asymmetry and finer buoyancy calculations, you can roughly think of the solo canoe as a teeter-totter, with the pivot at the center. 40lbs @ 18" aft of center will balance out 10lbs @ 6' forward of center. A sliding seat will make this even easier, but isn't absolutely necessary.