When I was in grad school (a business class), my professor brought an Everest climber who was his friend to class to talk about overcoming challenges. I gave the climber a hard time and I thought the professor might be mad at me for pushing his friend, but he thanked me after class.

This story sure doesn't change my mind that ascending Everest is madness.

The thing about climbing Everest is you can be #1 in the World when it comes to fitness and endurance. But your success depends a lot on others that are likely not. Along with that comes decision making that becomes flawed even by the most fit.It's a shared deal and sadly costs lives. The 1996 incident for one. Denali to me would be more of a self accomplishment and less people deciding your fate. Everest may be the highest peak but it also had the highest egos of those trying to climb. Kudos to
Leslie for saving the life of the young women putting others before their ego.

Thanks for posting. I like reading about mountains.

Why did you give the climber a hard time?
Did you think because it was obviously a very dangerous challenge and a choice that few would make that he wasn't the best speaker on the subject. Did you feel a better choice would be, for instance a man who was born without arms, learned to play the piano and invented Silly Putty?
Did you just challenge him to see if he could overcome your challenge?
Did you just want to debate?

Also why do you think the professor thanked you?

Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it, so what do you love? You might love the accord, but Everest is a matter of money as much as grit and climbing Everest is as much a matter of being willing to step over the dead and dying as enduring the physiological challenges. Are people willing to step over the dead and dying worthy of accord? Plus, it's been done to death, literally, again and again.

I'm guessing my professor was persuaded by my points.

I applaud the New York Times for executing such exhaustive journalism.

Wow, madness indeed but what a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing it!

For many, Sandy Hill epitomizes what is amiss on the mountain.

You're welcome, Mirth. The images of the bodies being moved were both mesmerizing and painful to watch. That description of the mourning was brutal, but it was the final image of the corpse going into the flames was the most emotive for me. I thought, "All of that for this?"

missmolly: "You don't love the mountain if you litter it, so what do you love? You might love the accord, but Everest is a matter of money as much as grit and climbing Everest is as much a matter of being willing to step over the dead and dying as enduring the physiological challenges. Are people willing to step over the dead and dying worthy of accord? Plus, it's been done to death, literally, again and again. "

Thank you for posting this article and what you said has summed up my feelings about summiting Everest perfectly. When I first read, years ago now, about Green Boots and how people LITERALLY have to step over dead bodies for the glory, I lost a lot of respect for Everest climbers.

And yeah, that last photo was really something.

Minnesotian: "

missmolly: "You don't love the mountain if you litter it, so what do you love? You might love the accord, but Everest is a matter of money as much as grit and climbing Everest is as much a matter of being willing to step over the dead and dying as enduring the physiological challenges. Are people willing to step over the dead and dying worthy of accord? Plus, it's been done to death, literally, again and again. "

Thank you for posting this article and what you said has summed up my feelings about summiting Everest perfectly. When I first read, years ago now, about Green Boots and how people LITERALLY have to step over dead bodies for the glory, I lost a lot of respect for Everest climbers.


And yeah, that last photo was really something. "

I know. You witness all the suffering, from the dying to the Sherpas to the sobbing family, and you get to the last photo and think, "All that for this?"

I know we all end up in some version of that room in the final photo, but if you're going to risk life, do it for something fresh and clean, not trampled, trashed Everest.

What's your take, Zulu? If you're in the thread, Beav, what's yours? Arctic? Anyone?

missmolly: " For many, Sandy Hill epitomizes what is amiss on the mountain.


You're welcome, Mirth. The images of the bodies being moved were both mesmerizing and painful to watch. That description of the mourning was brutal, but it was the final image of the corpse going into the flames was the most emotive for me. I thought, "All of that for this?" "

Some cultures will go to great lengths to ensure their dead are able to move on. The article did a good job of illustrating that same need for the living as closure.

Yeah, the video clips were haunting.

missmolly: "Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it "

Good point mm,

My ex-coworker and good friend is the chief LEO at Denali NP, in Ak.
With this position, she is responsible for all the Search and Rescues in Denali NP, as well as the Mtn.
On Denali you are required to pack out everything including your feces.

@Mirth

Regarding the great lengths people will go to ensure their dead can move on, witness the Egyptians. Of course, no pharaoh lifted even a pebble to cross the River Styx.

If one could resurrect the dead of Everest to ask them if they wanted Sherpas to imperil themselves and their families to impoverish themselves to retrieve their corpses, their answer would likely be, "Hell, no!"

And if their answer was "Yes," then they deserve to be left on the mountain.

This popped up on my firefox feed this morning as well....I could hardly stop reading once I started. The videos have a little eerie vibe.
It gives me mixed feelings. It's sad and to me it read as misguided and ill-consitered from the start. But obviously in hindsight we can see 20-20.
Glad they got them down.

missmolly:

"I know we all end up in some version of that room in the final photo, but if you're going to risk life, do it for something fresh and clean, not trampled, trashed Everest.


What's your take, Zulu? If you're in the thread, Beav, what's yours? Arctic? Anyone?"

If I died in that exceedingly harsh alpine environment I would want to be left there--just pushed out of sight into a crevasse or on an untrammeled, inaccessible part of the mountain. Returning to nature is what its all about, and where all life returns. Besides, why not have a great view?

arctic: "

missmolly:


"I know we all end up in some version of that room in the final photo, but if you're going to risk life, do it for something fresh and clean, not trampled, trashed Everest.



What's your take, Zulu? If you're in the thread, Beav, what's yours? Arctic? Anyone?"

If I died in that exceedingly harsh alpine environment I would want to be left there--just pushed out of sight into a crevasse or on an untrammeled, inaccessible part of the mountain. Returning to nature is what its all about, and where all life returns. Besides, why not have a great view?"

That strikes me as the best solution, but it also comes with perils. Sherpas have been clearing the mountain of corpses to keep the $$$-climbers coming, but one of the sherpas, when pushing a corpse into a crevasse, lost his footing and went over the edge. Did you ever see the movie, "Comes a Horseman"? If so, do you remember Richard Farnsworth's death?

missmolly: "Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it, so what do you love? You might love the accord, but Everest is a matter of money as much as grit and climbing Everest is as much a matter of being willing to step over the dead and dying as enduring the physiological challenges. Are people willing to step over the dead and dying worthy of accord? Plus, it's been done to death, literally, again and again.


I'm guessing my professor was persuaded by my points.


I applaud the New York Times for executing such exhaustive journalism. "

That was a very good read.........sad, but good.

I often wonder what drives someone that much to spend the kind of money chasing a dream.

I'm equally saddened by the fact that these guys died, and left their families in tatters. What drives someone to do that. I don't fault them, I just wonder how a person gets that way about anything.

I have passions, but I don't believe I'd risk death chasing them.

Later,

Geo

GeoFisher: "

missmolly: "Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it, so what do you love? You might love the accord, but Everest is a matter of money as much as grit and climbing Everest is as much a matter of being willing to step over the dead and dying as enduring the physiological challenges. Are people willing to step over the dead and dying worthy of accord? Plus, it's been done to death, literally, again and again.



I'm guessing my professor was persuaded by my points.



I applaud the New York Times for executing such exhaustive journalism. "

That was a very good read.........sad, but good.


I often wonder what drives someone that much to spend the kind of money chasing a dream.


I'm equally saddened by the fact that these guys died, and left their families in tatters. What drives someone to do that. I don't fault them, I just wonder how a person gets that way about anything.


I have passions, but I don't believe I'd risk death chasing them.


Later,


Geo"

I felt the same way. $30,000 is arguably a lot of money in general, but to them it sounds like a fortune. I guess it shows that any dream is attainable though.
I have to believe they all thought they would be fine and the loss of judgement was from the altitude. Hopefully not from fear of failure as ultimately there was a bigger failure looming. Better to lose a battle than the war.

I do have friends that are thrill seekers so I can sort of relate, from conversations with them. To each their own, right? Accomplishments that may seem benign (to me) may be critically important to them.
I too know a man who submitted Everest, he was sponsored so the financial aspect wasn't there. His journey was the polar opposite. Guided, scripted, and supplied. Hard work for sure, but he never felt in danger. I was also surprised how many people were up top in his pictures.

LindenTree3: "

missmolly: "Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it "

Good point mm,


My ex-coworker and good friend is the chief LEO at Denali NP, in Ak.
With this position, she is responsible for all the Search and Rescues in Denali NP, as well as the Mtn.
On Denali you are required to pack out everything including your feces."

We sat in one of the sessions about Denali when we were in Alaska and was impressed how they work to make it a safe a trip as possible. Lung issues seems to be the biggy but hikers are mandated to stay at a base camp for a set period of time to get their bodies somewhat use to the altitude. Even a number of rangers have died over the years there. One thing I thought interesting is that folk who have done Everest and then Denalli make the comment that Denali was tougher. Denali is closer to the arctic circle while Everest is closer to the equator,,,, although in my opinion with the altitude that shouldn't make much difference.

Working in the dairy curtain barns is tough enough for me.... got my hair cut today just in time for the cold spell to hit the Midwest...the back of my neck is cold already....

dr bob

I feel sadness for the widow Chandana whose husbands body is still on the mountain. It may be a blessing though. By not excepting that he’ dead and still identifying as a married women she may be able to avoid the shunning and mistreatment of widows that can occur in India.

It’s a touching and interesting article. I admire people who report on and question the way things are and bring awareness.
I believe its madness but I would leave the choice up to the climbers and ask them to respect and consider their role in it.

I am always impressed with the deep thoughts and views of those that reply in these threads.

mm, When were you in grad school? Was it before the Into Thin Air and other large loss of life incidents and other concerns that have happened in the last 25 years? Before then I remember knowing that bodies couldn’t be retrieved, there was a litter problem and concerns about exploiting the Sherpas but not like today.

GeoFisher:
That was a very good read.........sad, but good.


I often wonder what drives someone that much to spend the kind of money chasing a dream.


I'm equally saddened by the fact that these guys died, and left their families in tatters. What drives someone to do that. I don't fault them, I just wonder how a person gets that way about anything.


I have passions, but I don't believe I'd risk death chasing them.


Later,

Geo"

I think that risk-taking and exploration have always been a part of the human spirit---at least for some people. It is certainly part of the American experience, whether risking months-long ocean crossings to get here, building the trans-continental railroad across the Sierra, or putting men on the moon.

The spark of life is finite, but its greatness is not measured in time, but in experiencing all that is out there.

DrBobDerrig: "

LindenTree3: "

missmolly: "Zulu, if you read the article and/or books about Everest, you know it's littered with corpses and climbing detritus. "Leave no trace" isn't an Everest axiom. You don't love the mountain if you litter it "

Good point mm,



My ex-coworker and good friend is the chief LEO at Denali NP, in Ak.
With this position, she is responsible for all the Search and Rescues in Denali NP, as well as the Mtn.
On Denali you are required to pack out everything including your feces."

We sat in one of the sessions about Denali when we were in Alaska and was impressed how they work to make it a safe a trip as possible. Lung issues seems to be the biggy but hikers are mandated to stay at a base camp for a set period of time to get their bodies somewhat use to the altitude. Even a number of rangers have died over the years there. One thing I thought interesting is that folk who have done Everest and then Denalli make the comment that Denali was tougher. Denali is closer to the arctic circle while Everest is closer to the equator,,,, although in my opinion with the altitude that shouldn't make much difference.


Working in the dairy curtain barns is tough enough for me.... got my hair cut today just in time for the cold spell to hit the Midwest...the back of my neck is cold already....


dr bob"

Denali - other then pure elevation - is likely tougher then Everest.

First you have the Coriolis Effect The Coriolis Effect causes any body that moves on a rotating planet to turn to the right (clockwise) in the northern hemisphere and to the left (counterclockwise) in the southern hemisphere. The effect is negligible at the equator and increases both north and south toward the poles. On average the winds are stronger (which allows less "summit attempts" ) on Denali even though it's nearly 9000 feet less then Everest.


There is a distinction between measuring "highest" and "tallest." The highest mountain is determined by measuring a mountain's highest point above sea level. The tallest mountain is measured from base to summit. Using that measurement, Denali is taller than Mount Everest. Denali rises about 18,000 feet (5,500 meters) from its base, which is a greater vertical rise than Everest's 12,000-foot rise (3,700 meters) from its base at 17,000 feet (5,200 meters). The base to peak rise of Denali is the largest of any mountain that lies entirely above sea level making the steep vertical ascent very difficult.

2001, Zulu. Into Thin Air was published in 1997.

Arctic, there are so many Arctic Ocean-bound rivers in North America that have been rarely paddled. I'm guessing some have never been paddled. All of them can kill you. If a person wants adventure, why not head north than join the caravan tromping up Everest? Sure, it's the tallest, but as Whitewolf argues, it's probably not the hardest. I'm guessing there are lots of mountains in the world more challenging than Everest.

missmolly: "2001, Zulu. Into Thin Air was published in 1997.


Arctic, there are so many Arctic Ocean-bound rivers in North America that have been rarely paddled. I'm guessing some have never been paddled. All of them can kill you. If a person wants adventure, why not head north than join the caravan tromping up Everest? Sure, it's the tallest, but as Whitewolf argues, it's probably not the hardest. I'm guessing there are lots of mountains in the world more challenging than Everest. "

It seemed to read like there was a social aspect of the adventure mingled with their passion for mountaineering. Perhaps even some affirmation through social recognition? Would anyone financially support a trip to the arctic? Would anyone care? I don't know.
Like any "adventure" it's subjective. To some Everest may sound less adventurous than heading into the unexplored arctic. But if mountaineering is your passion......is there a more famed accomplishment than the highest place on earth?

pamonster: "

missmolly: "2001, Zulu. Into Thin Air was published in 1997.



Arctic, there are so many Arctic Ocean-bound rivers in North America that have been rarely paddled. I'm guessing some have never been paddled. All of them can kill you. If a person wants adventure, why not head north than join the caravan tromping up Everest? Sure, it's the tallest, but as Whitewolf argues, it's probably not the hardest. I'm guessing there are lots of mountains in the world more challenging than Everest. "

It seemed to read like there was a social aspect of the adventure mingled with their passion for mountaineering. Perhaps even some affirmation through social recognition? Would anyone financially support a trip to the arctic? Would anyone care? I don't know.
Like any "adventure" it's subjective. To some Everest may sound less adventurous than heading into the unexplored arctic. But if mountaineering is your passion......is there a more famed accomplishment than the highest place on earth?


"

I understand your position, pamonster. It just that if I met someone who'd climbed Everest, in my mind, I'd react, "Eh."

I know many other will people will react like Old Faithful.

I'd be more of a mud pot.

missmolly: "

pamonster: "

missmolly: "2001, Zulu. Into Thin Air was published in 1997.



Arctic, there are so many Arctic Ocean-bound rivers in North America that have been rarely paddled. I'm guessing some have never been paddled. All of them can kill you. If a person wants adventure, why not head north than join the caravan tromping up Everest? Sure, it's the tallest, but as Whitewolf argues, it's probably not the hardest. I'm guessing there are lots of mountains in the world more challenging than Everest. "

It seemed to read like there was a social aspect of the adventure mingled with their passion for mountaineering. Perhaps even some affirmation through social recognition? Would anyone financially support a trip to the arctic? Would anyone care? I don't know.
Like any "adventure" it's subjective. To some Everest may sound less adventurous than heading into the unexplored arctic. But if mountaineering is your passion......is there a more famed accomplishment than the highest place on earth?



"

I understand your position, pamonster. It just that if I met someone who'd climbed Everest, in my mind, I'd react, "Eh."


I know many other will people will react like Old Faithful.


I'd be more of a mud pot. "

I think I'm on your side with that.

By your own admission in the OP missmolly, your reaction to meeting an Everest summiteer(?) produced more than an "eh".

People have hobbies. Sometimes those hobbies become a bit compulsive and therefore costly to family members. I enjoy long distance running. Over the years I have been running marathons I could have financed a Hawaiian vacation with my shoe and entry fee monies.(Wow, I need to do something special for my wife.) My training is done on rural Wisconsin roads. Many people do not move over, or even slow down, when passing me. There is a very real chance that some day I will be hit by one of those drivers.

When BeaV did his epic journey you had nothing but effusive praise for him and his accomplishment. I could never generate the needed desire to do what he did.

Mastertangler admitted to spending over $1K on a fishing rig that basically sits in a corner.

We all have the "madness" to a certain degree. It is just that when someone else's madness mirrors our own it is more understandable, even laudable.

Mr. 10, we had to be quarrelsome in business school. Every word you utter is recorded, transcribed, parsed, and graded. No lie. Plus, we were graded on a bell curve, with 30% of the class earning an F or D and 40% a crummy C.

If I were to meet an Everest climber at a party, I'd leave the gushing to others.

BeaV didn't paddle past bodies of the paddlers who preceded him. Plus, BeaV was Edmund Hillary, not someone who paid to stand in the line of people ascending Everest yet again. Hillary wasn't just the first to climb: He also climbed a clean mountain.

MT's $1,000 fishing rig =/= an Indian family impoverished with assets sold, a wife made into a widow, i.e. a second class citizen, Sherpas imperiled, and a man frozen into a pitiful pose

I often walk on local roads and pick up cans of likker tossed out windows. I assume everyone who passes me is drunk or distracted by the meth cooking in the back seat and step aside accordingly. So, run safely, Mr. Fleet o' Feet.

It may not have been visible, but Hillary climbed past Mallory's corpse.

missmolly: "2001, Zulu. Into Thin Air was published in 1997.


Arctic, there are so many Arctic Ocean-bound rivers in North America that have been rarely paddled. I'm guessing some have never been paddled. All of them can kill you. If a person wants adventure, why not head north than join the caravan tromping up Everest? Sure, it's the tallest, but as Whitewolf argues, it's probably not the hardest. I'm guessing there are lots of mountains in the world more challenging than Everest. "

You might be surprised to know that pretty much EVERY arctic river in North America that has enough water to float a canoe (not a sure thing on every stream, though) has been paddled---and the vast majority get paddled by multiple groups every year.

I've paddled a couple of them, and have friends that have paddled others. The biggest obstacles to paddling these are: (1) Cost---air travel is EXPENSIVE up there, and, (2) Getting a skilled, competent crew together who can take a LOT of time off of work (I was gone for two months on a trip in 1991).

Both YMCA/YWCA youth camps here in Minnesota send groups on arctic canoe trips--and they sometimes do some fairly gnarly routes--but the costs are high, and it's mostly kids from wealthy families that get to go.

Several businesses outfit/guide remote paddling trips in the Canadian Arctic (where the best paddling is), as well as in Alaska.

Unas10: "It may not have been visible, but Hillary climbed past Mallory's corpse."

That's the business school spirit!

WhiteWolf: "Kudos to Leslie for saving the life of the young women putting others before their ego."

+1
"Kindness on the Mountain"

Very good read. Thanks for posting. I thought it was interesting that someone stole the dead person's air cylinder to resell in Katmandu. The Sherpas are the unsung heroes of the mountain, but it's only about money for them and the guides. The clients, it's more about ego.

A few years back there was a series on the discovery channel called "Everest: Beyond The Limit". It followed a guiding company and their clients as they went from base camp to the summit. Pretty interesting stuff and I learned a lot about Everest watching the three seasons. Here's the Wikipedia link if interested.

Climbing Everest Reality Show

Not that it matters; don't know if it's fact or fiction, and either way, I could care less.

Supposedly, Pittman was "short roped" to a sherpa, and he quite literally dragged her most of the way up Everest.

In my personal opinion; the guide who assigned the sherpa to "short rope" her up the mountain, should have had the sherpa "short rope" her "down the mountain".

Money shouldn't be the deciding factor on who is go/no go; especially when dealing with people who have the "it's all about me" mentality.

BOB