I will post this, but will not comment. In fact, I will not look at any comments on this post. Guess I just commented.

In unexpected move, feds clear way for mining on edge of BWCA

This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause.

The Great Outdoors: "...Much ado about nothing...

I wish that were true. It seems like recent events don't necessarily follow expectations. Seems like the best course of action is to prepare for worst.

Best or worst depends on your point of view. But I wouldn’t assume that Zinke is making a purely legalistic decision. He’s definitely in favor of increased mining on public lands. On the other hand, he’s also very into hunting and fishing. So the possibility of hurting fishing could have an impact on him.

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

It’s like a bomb being dropped from a
Plane . There’s a chance it won’t explode when it hits the ground
But don’t hold your freaking breath !

Why post, and not comment? How about a stand on an issue of our time.?

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

It’s like a bomb being dropped from a
Plane . There’s a chance it won’t explode when it hits the ground
But don’t hold your freaking breath !"

Or like riding in a car. It could hurt or even kill you or other people. Except mining won't kill anyone. Everything in life comes with chances.

If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.

Or do it in some else's back yard, not mine.

Who didn't see this coming? Blocking mining by executive order. Not by going through the proper government laws and channels.

Those of you against copper mine, how many of you have giving up buying things containing copper? Not one of you?

Okay where should we get our copper for wind generators? Alaska's pebble mine?

You can't just keep saying no give us some real world answers.

Merry Christmas everyone and a Great New Year!!

Everyone, have some spiked egg-nog and while I'm at it, A Very Happy Christmas Holiday!
~resume fuming & bickering~

Savage Voyageur: "Oh goodie, another mining thread. "

It won't last long.... Someone opposed will purposely say something so outrageous, on purpose, to force the mods to delete.

It would be nice if people would just learn how to argue and debate without getting personal and nasty.

Thanks for the link. May be controversial, but is important.

Neil Young After the Gold Rush

So this means that test drilling can continue while the Interior Dept continues to study whether copper-nickel mining is environmentally feasible in the region.

I've always assumed that a big part of the reason the leases weren't renewed was that there's some chance the study could conclude it's NOT feasible, in which case the companies would have spent two years' worth of $$$ on pointless test drilling.

Renewing the leases before the study is completed makes you wonder if the study's conclusion is already determined.

Why would this study show anything different then 2012 EIS done by the forest service? And if the forest service did 2 studies and came up with 2 different results, which study do we believe? This would question the reliability and honesty of the forest service, blm and their research partners.

ellahallely: "Why would this study show anything different then 2012 EIS done by the forest service? And if the forest service did 2 studies and came up with 2 different results, which study do we believe? This would question the reliability and honesty of the forest service, blm and their research partners."

NY Times, Science section 12/22/2017 reports the EPA down 700 employees since the beginning of 2017 with a a goal of 3200 employee reduction. Of the 700; 200 were scientists and 96 were Environmental Protection Specialists.

Washington Post, Health and Science section 12/15/2017 reports CDC policy analysts confirm that words including "evidence-based" or "science-based" were banned within the agency.

I doubt there will be any study demonstrating harm to the environment or human health anytime soon.

I have no idea what that has to do with the forest service and it 2012 environmental impact study.

But thanks for pointing out the great news. We are getting rid of government employees and unemployment is at lowest in almost 20 years. Here in Minnesota we get rid of 4000 state employees and the states unemployment is at a 17 year low. Yet 20% some percent of Minnesotans that live on the range live in poverty. I feel for those people this Holiday Season.

LuvMyBell: "

Savage Voyageur: "Oh goodie, another mining thread. "

It won't last long.... Someone opposed will purposely say something so outrageous, on purpose, to force the mods to delete.


It would be nice if people would just learn how to argue and debate without getting personal and nasty.


"

luvmybell looks like you are right.

So the American people are stupid. I am done with this thread.

ellahallely: "I have no idea what that has to do with the forest service and it 2012 environmental impact study..."

Well, it could be surmised that if some government agencies are directed to take positions favorable to industry, even if doing so necessitates ignoring overwhelming consequences, other government agencies will be as well.

I fully admit, I have zero expertise with respect to mining nor whether it can be done safely on the edge of the BWCA. Unfortunately, those with that expertise will not be there to protect us in the event that it cannot be done safely. Also those with the expertise to recognize imminent harm to the environment will not be there when the time comes.

My grandma's favorite idiom was always, "You can't buy your health". Should we also assume she would agree that "You should not sell or trade your health or the health of your environment " as well?

OldGuystilltripping: " "

You won!

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

It’s like a bomb being dropped from a
Plane . There’s a chance it won’t explode when it hits the ground
But don’t hold your freaking breath !"

Or like riding in a car. It could hurt or even kill you or other people. Except mining won't kill anyone.

"

Mining kills the land...and only provides the jobs until said minerals are gone..then we will be right back here looking for something else to rape from the land for "good jobs". Do you really think a company from Chile cares about the boundary waters?

Trump is all about jobs etc. but he is also highly for American American American and with this being a Chilean company that surprised me a little bit. All in all, this isn't a final conclusion so we will see what happens. I would, as well as everyone here I would think, be devastated if a mine every ruined the integrity of the BWCA's prestine waters. That being said, I don't live in Ely so can't comment on the economic impact of a mine. If the mining can be done cleanly then great, everybody wins. It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap.

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

It’s like a bomb being dropped from a
Plane . There’s a chance it won’t explode when it hits the ground
But don’t hold your freaking breath !"

Or like riding in a car. It could hurt or even kill you or other people. Except mining won't kill anyone. Everything in life comes with chances.


If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.
"

I am very happy to use metals mined from a thousand other places other than the one proposed near the bwca, and speaking of hypocrites ive seen you take a stand on other issues while using products from those issues should I point them out. What were trying to get through should you take the time to listen, is that there are a lot of people who would be for mining as long as its not in this location, this is a big state find another location !p.s. Did you say mining doesn't kill anyone.

LuvMyBell: "

Savage Voyageur: "Oh goodie, another mining thread. "

It won't last long.... Someone opposed will purposely say something so outrageous, on purpose, to force the mods to delete.


It would be nice if people would just learn how to argue and debate without getting personal and nasty.


"

I literally almost choked on my drink.

maybe we could get guns and bears worked into this thread

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,

I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.

ockycamper: "maybe we could get guns and bears worked into this thread"

Basspro69: "

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.
"

I am very happy to use metals mined from a thousand other places other than the one proposed near the bwca. What were trying to get through should you take the time to listen, is that there are a lot of people who would be for mining as long as its not in this location, this is a big state find another location !"

Find another location because this a big state???
Hmmmm, normally a mine is located where there is an ore body that someone wants.
Your suggestion of build a mine at another location and the ore body will come, doesn't seem to be very well thought out!! :)

LindenTree3: "

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,


I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.

"

same

mjmkjun: "

LindenTree3: "

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,



I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.


"

same
"

I get it you boycott bp because of environmental reasons.

This thread is about mining. Do you also boycott copper products ???? Or is that different and why??

I boycott Minneapolis because of what they let happen to the environment in downtown and the north side, shooting people you know. But they say it is because of a lack of good jobs. I wish I knew.

Thought you were done with this thread.

It isn't so much about mining as it is about the impact that using fossil fuels can have on the environment. Whether it is an oil spill or sulfide contamination doesn't really matter, a mess is a mess and costly to clean up.

It got more respectable so I thought I would ask a few question and try to understand the other people here that I have respect for and their first hand experiences . I didn't care for the fact stupid was used to describe my fellow Americans. Thanks for noticing what I do.

Happy New Year

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

It’s like a bomb being dropped from a
Plane . There’s a chance it won’t explode when it hits the ground
But don’t hold your freaking breath !"

Or like riding in a car. It could hurt or even kill you or other people. Except mining won't kill anyone. Everything in life comes with chances.


If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.


Or do it in some else's back yard, not mine.

Who didn't see this coming? Blocking mining by executive order. Not by going through the proper government laws and channels.

Those of you against copper mine, how many of you have giving up buying things containing copper? Not one of you?

Okay where should we get our copper for wind generators? Alaska's pebble mine?

You can't just keep saying no give us some real world answers.

Merry Christmas everyone and a Great New Year!!

"

I do not understand your argument. If a large hotel is planned to be built in an ecologically sensitive area, should I boycott all hotels or have a reasoned discussion about whether or not that particular building should be built in that spot? I think that we can all agree that copper is essential to our current way of life, but your question regarding whether people are giving up the element only merits a discussion if: 1.People are saying that no copper mining should happen anywhere, or 2.The mine in question is critical to maintaining global copper supplies at a level that meets demand. I don't think that many people are arguing for the former point, and while copper is not nearly as abundant as other elements, I have seen no evidence to support the latter point either. The better question for people should be, "If copper mining is not allowed near the BWCA, are you willing to pay slightly more in the future for your products that contain copper?" Beyond that question, the focus of the topic should be on the pros and cons of the proposed location for this particular mine.

ellahallely: "

mjmkjun: "

LindenTree3: "

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,



I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.



"

same
"

I get it you boycott bp because of environmental reasons.


This thread is about mining. Do you also boycott copper products ???? Or is that different and why??


I boycott Minneapolis because of what they let happen to the environment in downtown and the north side, shooting people you know. But they say it is because of a lack of good jobs. I wish I knew.
"

I understand your logic, but it is failed logic. What you should have asked is "Do you boycott Antifigosta copper?" and my answer would be yes. I boycott BP, not gasoline.

I feel compassion for all those unemployed and yes government employees. I feel sorry for those who don't want to work. Jobs are easier to find in different areas. I own 2 businesses in the Twin Cities area and good help is very hard to find. Thanks for asking.

CityFisher74: "

ellahallely: "

mjmkjun: "

LindenTree3: "

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,




I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.



"

same
"

I get it you boycott bp because of environmental reasons.



This thread is about mining. Do you also boycott copper products ???? Or is that different and why??



I boycott Minneapolis because of what they let happen to the environment in downtown and the north side, shooting people you know. But they say it is because of a lack of good jobs. I wish I knew.
"

I understand your logic, but it is failed logic. What you should have asked is "Do you boycott Antifigosta copper?" and my answer would be yes. I boycott BP, not gasoline."

I checked multiple items while I was at the store today that contained different minerals not one listed where they were mined. How will know what products not to buy because they were mined in northern Minnesota?

mutz: "

CityFisher74: "

ellahallely: "

mjmkjun: "

LindenTree3: "

CityFisher74: It doesn't help that I just watched the movie "Deepwater Horizon" this weekend and it makes me never want to go to a BP gas station ever again. In terms of environmental integrity, talk is very cheap."

CityFisher,

I understand how you feel, I supervised the clean up of about 15 miles of beaches on the bp oil spill for 5 weeks.
I realize that the bp gas stations are not owned by bp, but it is a rare occurance that I ever find myself in a bp gas station after what I witnessed down south.

"

same
"

I get it you boycott bp because of environmental reasons.

This thread is about mining. Do you also boycott copper products ???? Or is that different and why??

I boycott Minneapolis because of what they let happen to the environment in downtown and the north side, shooting people you know. But they say it is because of a lack of good jobs. I wish I knew.
"

I understand your logic, but it is failed logic. What you should have asked is "Do you boycott Antofagasta copper?" and my answer would be yes. I boycott BP, not gasoline."

I checked multiple items while I was at the store today that contained different minerals not one listed where they were mined. How will know what products not to buy because they were mined in northern Minnesota?"

Yeah, I don't see how a typical consumer could possibly boycott copper from a specific company. Then again, this whole copper boycott issue is a red herring, so I'm not sure why it is still being discussed.

The Great Outdoors: "

Basspro69: "

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.
"

I am very happy to use metals mined from a thousand other places other than the one proposed near the bwca. What were trying to get through should you take the time to listen, is that there are a lot of people who would be for mining as long as its not in this location, this is a big state find another location !"

Find another location because this a big state???
Hmmmm, normally a mine is located where there is an ore body that someone wants.
Your suggestion of build a mine at another location and the ore body will come, doesn't seem to be very well thought out!! :)
"

I’m sure there’s probably greater deposits in the middle of the Bwca why not just drill there . It’s hard explaining your point to someone that could care less about the environment .

I was just starting school when the Crying Indian commercial started playing on TV.

Perhaps it's time to bring it back?

OCDave: "I was just starting school when the Crying Indian commercial started playing on TV.


Perhaps it's time to bring it back?


"

Your Indian Iron Eyes Cody is Italian, not Native American. But you people believe what you want.

That commercial is down right offensive to the Native people of this country. An Italian trying to be speak for the Natives.

Like Pocahontas elizabeth warren claiming to be Native. What is with these frauds . Very disrespectful!!!!! No different then someone doing black face as a joke. Wake up people!!

It is interesting how one group prioritizes preserving the environment above financial benefits while the other group values financial benefit above environmental hazard risks. It is also interesting the most vocal pro mining advocates live in close proximity (relatively) to the potential environmental hazard(s). Odd in deed.

ellahallely: "

OCDave: "I was just starting school when the Crying Indian commercial started playing on TV.



Perhaps it's time to bring it back?



"

Your Indian Iron Eyes Cody is Italian, not Native American. But you people believe what you want.


That commercial is down right offensive to the Native people of this country. An Italian trying to be speak for the Natives.


Like Pocahontas elizabeth warren claiming to be Native. What is with these frauds . Very disrespectful!!!!! No different then someone doing black face as a joke. Wake up people!!



"

Warren from Wikipedia: "Former colleagues and supervisors at universities where she had worked stated that Warren's ancestry played no role in her hiring.[67][65][70][71] Warren stated that she had listed herself as a minority to meet people of similar heritage, and was unaware that Harvard had listed her as a woman of color.[72] Her brothers defended her, stating that they "grew up listening to our mother and grandmother and other relatives talk about our family's Cherokee and Delaware heritage".[73] In her 2014 autobiography, Warren stated that she had gained no career advantage from her stated heritage, and described the allegations as untrue and hurtful.[74] Genealogical investigators could not find proof that Warren's ancestors were or were not Native American.[70][75][76] The Oklahoma Historical Society said that finding a definitive answer about Native American heritage can be difficult because of intermarriage and deliberate avoidance of registration.[77]"


Blackface 1

Blackface 2



Was this guy's lederhosen also blackface?

ellahallely: "...Your Indian Iron Eyes Cody is Italian, not Native American. But you people believe what you want.


That commercial is down right offensive to the Native people of this country. An Italian trying to be speak for the Natives.


Like Pocahontas elizabeth warren claiming to be Native. What is with these frauds . Very disrespectful!!!!! No different then someone doing black face as a joke. Wake up people!!



"

Really? What you find offensive is an Italian "ACTOR" had the gall to play a Native American in a public service advertisement?

I guess I found the poisoning of the planet to be the offensive part. That commercial was quite effective at highlighting where our country was failing the planet and its citizens. Seven months after that commercial began running, April 1970, The EPA began operation under legislation signed by President Nixon. Moreover, I believe that commercial had a profound effect on the mentality of my generation in that we had a personal responsibility to "Keep America Beautiful".

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that human behavior is having a detrimental effect on the climate. There is an accelerating rate of species extinction attributable to human effect on environment. Continuing the status quo is not sustainable. All decisions going forward need to prioritize the health of the planet.

I must have missed something here, I thought the Topic was Mining in the BWCA. Please stay on track here and don’t Hijack threads.

Climate change is a hoax created by the Chinese. I'd rather have a cheap cellphone than a lake I can drink from. Scientists are just people that have dedicated their lives to taking bribes. And for all of us that would like to see some good ol' fashioned drilling within the BWCA? Be patient, we'll get there.

Happy New Year Everbody!

Savage Voyageur: I thought the Topic was Mining near the BWCA. Please stay on track here and don’t Hijack threads.

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "

Basspro69: "

ellahallely: "

Basspro69: "

The Great Outdoors: "This only clears the way to resume the test drilling that was stopped.
Much ado about nothing, but it stirs the pot for donations to the anti mining cause."

If you don't like take a stand don't use these mined metals. These treads bring out the hypocrites. I like my pc, iPhone,car,jet,bus,etc.........but I don 't want copper mine where I vacation. Do it where I don 't have to see it.
"

I am very happy to use metals mined from a thousand other places other than the one proposed near the bwca. What were trying to get through should you take the time to listen, is that there are a lot of people who would be for mining as long as its not in this location, this is a big state find another location !"

Find another location because this a big state???
Hmmmm, normally a mine is located where there is an ore body that someone wants.
Your suggestion of build a mine at another location and the ore body will come, doesn't seem to be very well thought out!! :)
"

I’m sure there’s probably greater deposits in the middle of the Bwca why not just drill there . It’s hard explaining your point to someone that could care less about the environment ."

I guess we'll never know if there are greater deposits in the middle of the BWCA, because mining and test drilling is ILLEGAL IN THE BWCA, and the proposed mine IS NOT in the BWCA!
It's hard explaining that to someone who doesn't care about an area, but only about themselves and their yearly vacation!

BnD: "It is interesting how one group prioritizes preserving the environment above financial benefits while the other group values financial benefit above environmental hazard risks. It is also interesting the most vocal pro mining advocates live in close proximity (relatively) to the potential environmental hazard(s). Odd in deed."

Very good observation.
It's always been a fact, that rules and restrictions are quickly accepted by groups that live the furthest away, and are least affected by them!!

The Great Outdoors: "

BnD: "It is interesting how one group prioritizes preserving the environment above financial benefits while the other group values financial benefit above environmental hazard risks. It is also interesting the most vocal pro mining advocates live in close proximity (relatively) to the potential environmental hazard(s). Odd in deed."

Very good observation.
It's always been a fact, that rules and restrictions are quickly accepted by groups that live the furthest away, and are least affected by them!!"

Sometimes opinions and viewpoints from people far away can be extremely beneficial. The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. Not saying Ely will go to the tech industry, but sometimes those who live closest to these areas have only known 1 way of doing things, when in fact there are many different ways of doing things that just haven't been thought of yet. I pray to god a way of life is found that provides income and security to the wonderful people of the Ely area, while also sustaining an amazingly unique, serene wilderness for the wonderful people far away from the Ely area who like to visit the Ely area. As with just about anything, this is easier said/theorized than done.

" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "

Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia.

ockycamper: "" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "


Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia."

VICE news and Wall Street Journal - have not personally witnessed the transitions but I know they are happening there. Regardless, what is a mining town's plan for when the finite resources run out eventually? Not even Donald Trump can save a finite resource that has been eradicated from the earth.

CityFisher74: "

ockycamper: "" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "
Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia."

VICE news and Wall Street Journal - have not personally witnessed the transitions but I know they are happening there. Regardless, what is a mining town's plan for when the finite resources run out eventually? Not even Donald Trump can save a finite resource that has been eradicated from the earth."

I mean no disrespect CityFisher74, and accept your reply as well intended, however would like a question asked before, but never answered:
The proposed Twin Metals Mine has an estimated 100 years of ore, be underground, and has long term employment potential. (very few, if any towns have this potential)
The tourism WAS flourishing in the late 40's until 1964 when the Wilderness Act removed much of it. What the '64 Act didn't take out, the '78 Act did for the most part. (both of them removed resorts, planes, motor boats, snowmobiles, limited the number of visitors, etc.
Question: Why couldn't it have been left well enough alone with it's tourism industry and logging industry both flourishing, and both sustainable???
Now any suggestions end up in court, hard to advance Ely's economy with a stacked deck.

Coal has always been in abundance. All studies that I have seen shows that it will be in abundance well into the future. If solar and wind energy was a viable solution it would already be sustainable without government support. It is easy for people that do not live in a state to tell someone in another state how they must live their lives and what they must do with their own property

The Great Outdoors: "

CityFisher74: "

ockycamper: "" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "
Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia."

VICE news and Wall Street Journal - have not personally witnessed the transitions but I know they are happening there. Regardless, what is a mining town's plan for when the finite resources run out eventually? Not even Donald Trump can save a finite resource that has been eradicated from the earth."

I mean no disrespect CityFisher74, and accept your reply as well intended, however would like a question asked before, but never answered:
The proposed Twin Metals Mine has an estimated 100 years of ore, be underground, and has long term employment potential. (very few, if any towns have this potential)
The tourism WAS flourishing in the late 40's until 1964 when the Wilderness Act removed much of it. What the '64 Act didn't take out, the '78 Act did for the most part. (both of them removed resorts, planes, motor boats, snowmobiles, limited the number of visitors, etc.
Question: Why couldn't it have been left well enough alone with it's tourism industry and logging industry both flourishing, and both sustainable???
Now any suggestions end up in court, hard to advance Ely's economy with a stacked deck.
"

So after that 100 years is up, then what? The inevitable is simply being delayed, and at what expense? What will the costs be if an environmental catastrophe occurs?

I don't know what the current BWCA area was like in the middle of the 20th century, but I do question your assertion that the Wilderness Act destroyed tourism in the area. You mention removal of resorts, snowmobiles, planes, etc. as if that is a bad thing, but I personally would rarely visit the area if I had to put up with those. Not only that, but there is still an abundance of areas in NE MN outside of the BWCA that people can go to if they want resorts, snowmobiles, etc.

The truth of the matter is that Ely, along with many other areas in NE MN, were simply living on borrowed time in the "good old days." There is nothing sustainable about mining in the long run, and as those jobs dry up, the cities will have to contract. The perceived decline in tourism was probably largely due to people leaving the area as the number of mining jobs plummeted over the last 70 years and the migration to urban areas increased. Logging and tourism are the only truly sustainable options after mining, and even that future is being threatened by the risk of environmental disaster.

ockycamper: " Coal has always been in abundance. All studies that I have seen shows that it Will be in abundance well into the future. If solar and wind energy was a viable solution it would already be sustainable without government support. It is easy for people that do not live in a state to tell someone in another state how they must live their lives and what they must do with their own property"

Fossil fuels will inevitably run out, meaning that green energy is the only sustainable long-term option. We should therefore be investing as heavily as we can in advancing green technology so that we can reduce our dependence on fossil fuels as quickly as possible. Also, pollution from burning coal, or pollution from mining (e.g., contaminated waterways) is not just a local issue because it ends up affecting everybody. Federal regulations with input from everybody are therefore not unreasonable. We don't need to look far back in history to see how people wantonly abused the water, air, and land before federal regulations were enacted and enforced.

There are some excellent postings in this thread. Really. Allows one to listen to both sides of the debate(s) without too much mudslinging. My opinion is ... In the end, politicians decide which way the wind will blow. It happens.

OSLO: "

The Great Outdoors: "

CityFisher74: "

ockycamper: "" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "
Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia."

VICE news and Wall Street Journal - have not personally witnessed the transitions but I know they are happening there. Regardless, what is a mining town's plan for when the finite resources run out eventually? Not even Donald Trump can save a finite resource that has been eradicated from the earth."

I mean no disrespect CityFisher74, and accept your reply as well intended, however would like a question asked before, but never answered:
The proposed Twin Metals Mine has an estimated 100 years of ore, be underground, and has long term employment potential. (very few, if any towns have this potential)
The tourism WAS flourishing in the late 40's until 1964 when the Wilderness Act removed much of it. What the '64 Act didn't take out, the '78 Act did for the most part. (both of them removed resorts, planes, motor boats, snowmobiles, limited the number of visitors, etc.
Question: Why couldn't it have been left well enough alone with it's tourism industry and logging industry both flourishing, and both sustainable???
Now any suggestions end up in court, hard to advance Ely's economy with a stacked deck.
"

So after that 100 years is up, then what? The inevitable is simply being delayed, and at what expense? What will the costs be if an environmental catastrophe occurs?
I don't know what the current BWCA area was like in the middle of the 20th century, but I do question your assertion that the Wilderness Act destroyed tourism in the area. You mention removal of resorts, snowmobiles, planes, etc. as if that is a bad thing, but I personally would rarely visit the area if I had to put up with those. Not only that, but there is still an abundance of areas in NE MN outside of the BWCA that people can go to if they want resorts, snowmobiles, etc.
The truth of the matter is that Ely, along with many other areas in NE MN, were simply living on borrowed time in the "good old days." There is nothing sustainable about mining in the long run, and as those jobs dry up, the cities will have to contract. The perceived decline in tourism was probably largely due to people leaving the area as the number of mining jobs plummeted over the last 70 years and the migration to urban areas increased. Logging and tourism are the only truly sustainable options after mining, and even that future is being threatened by the risk of environmental disaster."

Well, the only reason Ely was living on borrowed time was because of the Wilderness Acts of 1964 & 1978 which took away SUSTAINABLE tourism and logging jobs. You have no idea how busy the town was back then, and would still be without outside influence.
I don't know how many times I've heard the statement "If people want to use motors, resorts, or snowmobiles they can go somewhere else", but did it ever occur to you that you too can go somewhere else?? (why is this suggestion only one sided?)
Sustainable jobs are only sustainable as long as those opposed to them for whatever reasons, allow them to exist (not only mining jobs are unsustainable as you say)
This is what happened to Ely, certain groups decided that the area was not to their liking as it was, and got the Federal government to back them.
I'm not going to continue to try explaining this to someone who really doesn't have a lot of background on the areas history, and will never understand what happened.
However, there will be changes coming to the BWCA within two years, maybe less, that may affect you and others that travel it's lakes. You may not like what's coming.

The Great Outdoors: "

OSLO: "

The Great Outdoors: "I mean no disrespect CityFisher74, and accept your reply as well intended, however would like a question asked before, but never answered:
The proposed Twin Metals Mine has an estimated 100 years of ore, be underground, and has long term employment potential. (very few, if any towns have this potential)
The tourism WAS flourishing in the late 40's until 1964 when the Wilderness Act removed much of it. What the '64 Act didn't take out, the '78 Act did for the most part. (both of them removed resorts, planes, motor boats, snowmobiles, limited the number of visitors, etc.
Question: Why couldn't it have been left well enough alone with it's tourism industry and logging industry both flourishing, and both sustainable???
Now any suggestions end up in court, hard to advance Ely's economy with a stacked deck.
"

So after that 100 years is up, then what? The inevitable is simply being delayed, and at what expense? What will the costs be if an environmental catastrophe occurs?
I don't know what the current BWCA area was like in the middle of the 20th century, but I do question your assertion that the Wilderness Act destroyed tourism in the area. You mention removal of resorts, snowmobiles, planes, etc. as if that is a bad thing, but I personally would rarely visit the area if I had to put up with those. Not only that, but there is still an abundance of areas in NE MN outside of the BWCA that people can go to if they want resorts, snowmobiles, etc.
The truth of the matter is that Ely, along with many other areas in NE MN, were simply living on borrowed time in the "good old days." There is nothing sustainable about mining in the long run, and as those jobs dry up, the cities will have to contract. The perceived decline in tourism was probably largely due to people leaving the area as the number of mining jobs plummeted over the last 70 years and the migration to urban areas increased. Logging and tourism are the only truly sustainable options after mining, and even that future is being threatened by the risk of environmental disaster."

Well, the only reason Ely was living on borrowed time was because of the Wilderness Acts of 1964 & 1978 which took away SUSTAINABLE tourism and logging jobs. You have no idea how busy the town was back then, and would still be without outside influence.
I don't know how many times I've heard the statement "If people want to use motors, resorts, or snowmobiles they can go somewhere else", but did it ever occur to you that you too can go somewhere else?? (why is this suggestion only one sided?)
Sustainable jobs are only sustainable as long as those opposed to them for whatever reasons, allow them to exist (not only mining jobs are unsustainable as you say)
This is what happened to Ely, certain groups decided that the area was not to their liking as it was, and got the Federal government to back them.
I'm not going to continue to try explaining this to someone who really doesn't have a lot of background on the areas history, and will never understand what happened.
However, there will be changes coming to the BWCA within two years, maybe less, that may affect you and others that travel it's lakes. You may not like what's coming."

No, regions which depend on mining as their major industry are living on borrowed time no matter what, because the resources being mined have to run out at some point. You are correct that sustainable industries can be managed in a way that makes them unsustainable. However, you still have shown no causal link between the Wilderness Act and the decline of tourism in Ely. Yes, more people lived in and around Ely prior to the act, but then again, a lot of people were leaving the area at that time because of the decline of the mining industry and the beginning of the urban migration. You likely were seeing the end of an era, which just happened to coincide with an act that you seem to despise. I know that may be hard to hear, but small towns throughout Minnesota are dying. I grew up in a town that is smaller than Ely and has lost about a quarter of its population since its peak.

Ely still has outstanding snowmobile trails near it--I know because I worked to maintain them. Ely still has numerous resorts too. If that is all that people want, then those trails and resorts should be packed to capacity all the time. They're not, and they're not subject to the Wilderness Act. I'm not sure why you think things would be so prosperous up there if the BWCA had not been established.

You're correct that I could go to other wilderness areas instead of people who want to use motors and snowmobiles. Then again, there are many options for those people, and not many areas of wilderness for me to choose from. I guess I would be taking my money to Canada. Wilderness areas also have countless societal benefits from an ecological perspective, which impacts everyone, not just the small towns near them.

Your comment that, "I'm not going to continue to try explaining this to someone who really doesn't have a lot of background on the areas history, and will never understand what happened." is really presumptuous and condescending, and has no place in this thread.

Your comment that, "However, there will be changes coming to the BWCA within two years, maybe less, that may affect you and others that travel it's lakes. You may not like what's coming." is rather cryptic, but I assume that it refers to a possible large-scale ecological catastrophe due to sulfide mining. I agree that is certainly a possibility, and I you're correct that I wouldn't like it if it happened.

Finally, you never answered my question about what would happen to the area after 100 years of the mine operating.

The Great Outdoors: "

OSLO: "

The Great Outdoors: "

CityFisher74: "

ockycamper: "" The mining towns of Apalachia went through tough times when mines were shut down, but they are booming back now with the tech industry jobs that are flowing in. "
Not sure where you live but this simply is not reality. I live in Kentucky and have been in eastern KY and eastern TN as well as western WV and other areas in the Apalachia area during the past two years. With the restrictions on coal production and use under the last administration, these areas are dying. There is no "tech" in Apalachia."

VICE news and Wall Street Journal - have not personally witnessed the transitions but I know they are happening there. Regardless, what is a mining town's plan for when the finite resources run out eventually? Not even Donald Trump can save a finite resource that has been eradicated from the earth."

I mean no disrespect CityFisher74, and accept your reply as well intended, however would like a question asked before, but never answered:
The proposed Twin Metals Mine has an estimated 100 years of ore, be underground, and has long term employment potential. (very few, if any towns have this potential)
The tourism WAS flourishing in the late 40's until 1964 when the Wilderness Act removed much of it. What the '64 Act didn't take out, the '78 Act did for the most part. (both of them removed resorts, planes, motor boats, snowmobiles, limited the number of visitors, etc.
Question: Why couldn't it have been left well enough alone with it's tourism industry and logging industry both flourishing, and both sustainable???
Now any suggestions end up in court, hard to advance Ely's economy with a stacked deck.
"

So after that 100 years is up, then what? The inevitable is simply being delayed, and at what expense? What will the costs be if an environmental catastrophe occurs?
I don't know what the current BWCA area was like in the middle of the 20th century, but I do question your assertion that the Wilderness Act destroyed tourism in the area. You mention removal of resorts, snowmobiles, planes, etc. as if that is a bad thing, but I personally would rarely visit the area if I had to put up with those. Not only that, but there is still an abundance of areas in NE MN outside of the BWCA that people can go to if they want resorts, snowmobiles, etc.
The truth of the matter is that Ely, along with many other areas in NE MN, were simply living on borrowed time in the "good old days." There is nothing sustainable about mining in the long run, and as those jobs dry up, the cities will have to contract. The perceived decline in tourism was probably largely due to people leaving the area as the number of mining jobs plummeted over the last 70 years and the migration to urban areas increased. Logging and tourism are the only truly sustainable options after mining, and even that future is being threatened by the risk of environmental disaster."

Well, the only reason Ely was living on borrowed time was because of the Wilderness Acts of 1964 & 1978 which took away SUSTAINABLE tourism and logging jobs. You have no idea how busy the town was back then, and would still be without outside influence.
I don't know how many times I've heard the statement "If people want to use motors, resorts, or snowmobiles they can go somewhere else", but did it ever occur to you that you too can go somewhere else?? (why is this suggestion only one sided?)
Sustainable jobs are only sustainable as long as those opposed to them for whatever reasons, allow them to exist (not only mining jobs are unsustainable as you say)
This is what happened to Ely, certain groups decided that the area was not to their liking as it was, and got the Federal government to back them.
I'm not going to continue to try explaining this to someone who really doesn't have a lot of background on the areas history, and will never understand what happened.
However, there will be changes coming to the BWCA within two years, maybe less, that may affect you and others that travel it's lakes. You may not like what's coming."

Thanks to the Federal Government.

I know this is taking a different turn, but it's not the lack of ore in the ground. The problem is further down the road at the refineries. Ours didn't update. The Japanese and Europeans where forced to up date after the being bombed during WWII. Better cheaper steel can be produced for less over seas, thus no need to import ours and making the demand for taconite much less in the Range.

OSLO,
Let's start with your last statement, what will happen to the area after 100 years of mining? I guess no one will ever know what will happen 100 years from now, whether the mine ever ran or not since everyone on this forum will be dead.
You say I can show no link between the Wilderness Acts OF '64 & '78 and the drop in tourism? The elimination of 20+ resorts, the airplane, the outboard motors, snowmobiles, and limiting the number of visitors will certainly drop the number of visitors. As I've said before, I see the difference between what the town was, and what it is today and not by reading or hearing about it from someone or some group with an agenda. That is why I made the statement about trying to explain it to you.
My message about something that will be coming within two years that you will not like refer to changes that will be made that regulate activities for visitors to the BWCA (you) and have nothing to do with mining.
Finally, if you are ever in Ely, I invite you and any other forum member to stop in the shop to discuss the history of the area.

OSLO,
PS-You claim to have worked on the area snowmobile trails?? When was this and who did you work for???

TGO your critical, personal and condescending remarks are uncalled for and quite frankly unbecoming. Address the issue and topic while respecting others.

I love the "jobs" argument. 3.3% unemployment in Minnesota, tough to say we need to sell off a prized possession (and not reversible) for jobs. Are the "good jobs" going to be for the locals? There are 7,100 jobs in MN for mining AND logging. Out of a 3,000,000 civilian labor force. The jobs argument is a joke.

And sorry, if there aren't "jobs" where you live, um ,move or create business, value and jobs yourself.

The whores have destroyed vast lands in ND and will do so in the BW if they are allowed.......so they can have what? Solve world hunger, improve education and equality or what? Oh, nope. Greed.

Sad,
John

BnD: "TGO your critical, personal and condescending remarks are uncalled for and quite frankly unbecoming. Address the issue and topic while respecting others."

What, did i miss something here, TGO remarks have been filled with a lifetime of Fact!
Looking back thru his comments i see nothing but decent dialogue. Years of personal experience. These forum topics can get so ridiculous, people taking cheap shots, sitting behind a pc monitor bored with winter and life. Just my 2 cents.
Happy new year, take a pill!

I like turtles.

mr.barley: "I like turtles."

now that's funny!

bwcasolo: "

BnD: "TGO your critical, personal and condescending remarks are uncalled for and quite frankly unbecoming. Address the issue and topic while respecting others."

What, did i miss something here, TGO remarks have been filled with a lifetime of Fact!
Looking back thru his comments i see nothing but decent dialogue. Years of personal experience. These forum topics can get so ridiculous, people taking cheap shots, sitting behind a pc monitor bored with winter and life. Just my 2 cents.
Happy new year, take a pill!"

Really? Please. Every time someone posts a valid position opposing mining TGO challenges their credibility, motivation, etc......Don’t see it huh? Strange.

time for a hot tub and a beer!

The Great Outdoors: "OSLO,
PS-You claim to have worked on the area snowmobile trails?? When was this and who did you work for???"

I started working in the area around 2010. Admittedly, I put in more time near Tower in what is now the Lake Vermilion-Soudan Underground Mine State Park, but I worked a lot in Bear Head Lake State Park, and also on the Taconite State Trail between Tower and Ely. I lived down near Virginia, but I spent a lot of my free weekends up in Ely too, because I like the area.

The Great Outdoors: "OSLO,
Let's start with your last statement, what will happen to the area after 100 years of mining? I guess no one will ever know what will happen 100 years from now, whether the mine ever ran or not since everyone on this forum will be dead.
You say I can show no link between the Wilderness Acts OF '64 & '78 and the drop in tourism? The elimination of 20+ resorts, the airplane, the outboard motors, snowmobiles, and limiting the number of visitors will certainly drop the number of visitors. As I've said before, I see the difference between what the town was, and what it is today and not by reading or hearing about it from someone or some group with an agenda. That is why I made the statement about trying to explain it to you.
My message about something that will be coming within two years that you will not like refer to changes that will be made that regulate activities for visitors to the BWCA (you) and have nothing to do with mining.
Finally, if you are ever in Ely, I invite you and any other forum member to stop in the shop to discuss the history of the area."

So you kick the can down the road, and get a short-term gain of jobs for 100 years (By the way, where did you see this number? I can't find it online anywhere.), and then the area is back in the same predicament. The only difference is that future generations would actually be in worse shape, because state regulators have said that the polluted water from the mine would have to be cleaned for 500 years and would cost billions of dollars to do so. If the company goes under, who is going to do that? If there is a massive environmental disaster while they are operating, what then? That could result in irreparable harm to the environment, all on a short-term gamble.

You keep mentioning the Wilderness Act (which yes, the federal government was responsible for, but Ely's own Sig Olson wrote it, and Hubert H. Humphrey then introduced it), but my understanding is that resorts were being bought out by the government as early as the 1940s. When exactly did the resorts stop operating? How many visitors did they have annually? How many visitors were there after the acts? I don't expect you to have all of those answers, but to have a discussion that goes beyond just speculation, those are just a few of the things we would need to be able to look at. Even if the numbers do show a drop, which I wouldn't be shocked to see, the entire region up there was already bleeding thousands of people due to declines in the number of people employed by the mines. You can't have those huge drops in population and not see the tourism industry in the area also suffer.

What specific changes are you talking about for the BWCA?

OSLO: "

The Great Outdoors: "OSLO,
Let's start with your last statement, what will happen to the area after 100 years of mining? I guess no one will ever know what will happen 100 years from now, whether the mine ever ran or not since everyone on this forum will be dead.
You say I can show no link between the Wilderness Acts OF '64 & '78 and the drop in tourism? The elimination of 20+ resorts, the airplane, the outboard motors, snowmobiles, and limiting the number of visitors will certainly drop the number of visitors. As I've said before, I see the difference between what the town was, and what it is today and not by reading or hearing about it from someone or some group with an agenda. That is why I made the statement about trying to explain it to you.
My message about something that will be coming within two years that you will not like refer to changes that will be made that regulate activities for visitors to the BWCA (you) and have nothing to do with mining.
Finally, if you are ever in Ely, I invite you and any other forum member to stop in the shop to discuss the history of the area."

So you kick the can down the road, and get a short-term gain of jobs for 100 years (By the way, where did you see this number? I can't find it online anywhere.), and then the area is back in the same predicament. The only difference is that future generations would actually be in worse shape, because state regulators have said that the polluted water from the mine would have to be cleaned for 500 years and would cost billions of dollars to do so. If the company goes under, who is going to do that? If there is a massive environmental disaster while they are operating, what then? That could result in irreparable harm to the environment, all on a short-term gamble.


You keep mentioning the Wilderness Act (which yes, the federal government was responsible for, but Ely's own Sig Olson wrote it, and Hubert H. Humphrey then introduced it), but my understanding is that resorts were being bought out by the government as early as the 1940s. When exactly did the resorts stop operating? How many visitors did they have annually? How many visitors were there after the acts? I don't expect you to have all of those answers, but to have a discussion that goes beyond just speculation, those are just a few of the things we would need to be able to look at. Even if the numbers do show a drop, which I wouldn't be shocked to see, the entire region up there was already bleeding thousands of people due to declines in the number of people employed by the mines. You can't have those huge drops in population and not see the tourism industry in the area also suffer.


What specific changes are you talking about for the BWCA?"

Still curious to hear your response to this, TGO. In particular, I'm curious where you got your 100 year figure. From an MPR article today:
"The mine is projected to create 360 permanent jobs over 20 years, in addition to construction and spin-off jobs. "

The mine is projected to close after only 20 years, and then the site will have to be cleaned for over 500 years!

I never said 100 years in my reply to you, merely said that no one will on this forum will be alive in 100 years so no one will ever know.
Business plans for mines are normally set for 20 years, some interpret this to mean the mine will only last for 20 years which is not true.
500 years of cleanup after the mine is closed is a total exaggeration, which is the norm for many environmental groups.
The comment that Ely's Sig Olson wrote the '64 Wilderness Act is not true, many people were involved in the process. Sig could be remembered as one of the people that introduced Small Mouth Bass into the area.
The changes that are coming will be a surprise within two years, courtesy of the US Forest Service and several environmental groups.
Finally an note to BnD:
You and a few others seem to hate anyone that gives information about mining, and like to shoot the messenger. I try to give a perspective about the area that you don't see in many anti mining discussions, which may run against what you believe to be true. I've been in this area for almost 70 years, minus 3+ years in the Army in the late 60s. I've been in a tourism business for 34 years, worked in the mines for 33 years, and have personally seen what you have only read about over the years.
I've always been open to have anyone stop by the shop to discuss the area, an offer that still stands.
If this offends you, I'm sorry.

The Great Outdoors: "I never said 100 years in my reply to you, merely said that no one will on this forum will be alive in 100 years so no one will ever know.
Business plans for mines are normally set for 20 years, some interpret this to mean the mine will only last for 20 years which is not true.
500 years of cleanup after the mine is closed is a total exaggeration, which is the norm for many environmental groups.
The comment that Ely's Sig Olson wrote the '64 Wilderness Act is not true, many people were involved in the process. Sig could be remembered as one of the people that introduced Small Mouth Bass into the area.
The changes that are coming will be a surprise within two years, courtesy of the US Forest Service and several environmental groups.
Finally an note to BnD:
You and a few others seem to hate anyone that gives information about mining, and like to shoot the messenger. I try to give a perspective about the area that you don't see in many anti mining discussions, which may run against what you believe to be true. I've been in this area for almost 70 years, minus 3+ years in the Army in the late 60s. I've been in a tourism business for 34 years, worked in the mines for 33 years, and have personally seen what you have only read about over the years.
I've always been open to have anyone stop by the shop to discuss the area, an offer that still stands.
If this offends you, I'm sorry."

Yes, the plan is for 20 years. That is the information that we currently have to work with. What evidence do you have that they will operate any longer than that?

I'm not sure why you are blaming environmental groups for the 500 year cleanup figure. That number comes directly from the Environmental Impact Statement created by the DNR, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and the Forest Service. Some environmental groups have disputed the figure and said that the cleanup should be considered indefinite because it will likely go much longer than 500 years. I used the official, more conservative figure based on the best computer models that are currently available to us.

I'm happy to amend my prior post to "...Sig Olson helped write it..." although the point I was making remains unchanged, and I also still believe that resorts were being bought out long before the Wilderness Act ever became law.

I don't know why you keep dodging the supposed upcoming BWCA changes. Even if the changes are just rumors, I'm curious as to what you keep alluding to.

Finally, I don't know what I have said that has possibly made you think that I "hate anyone that gives information about mining." Mining is essential to our current way of life, and frankly I don't know anybody who is against all mining. However, the pros and cons of each proposed mine should be evaluated, and then a logical decision should be reached. That means supporting some mining projects, but not others.

jfinn: "I love the "jobs" argument. 3.3% unemployment in Minnesota, tough to say we need to sell off a prized possession (and not reversible) for jobs. Are the "good jobs" going to be for the locals? There are 7,100 jobs in MN for mining AND logging. Out of a 3,000,000 civilian labor force. The jobs argument is a joke.

And sorry, if there aren't "jobs" where you live, um ,move or create business, value and jobs yourself.

The whores have destroyed vast lands in ND and will do so in the BW if they are allowed.......so they can have what? Solve world hunger, improve education and equality or what? Oh, nope. Greed.


Sad,
John"

Been saying this multiple times in multiple different ways, but have never gotten my point across like you have. Thank you. These "jobs" arguments are so narrow-minded and selfish it makes me sick to my stomach. There used to be thousands of jobs repairing Horse and Buggies, computer punch-card operators, typewriter operators, newspaper printers, railroad operators etc. You get the point...the jobs argument is lazy.

My position is anti-mining anything and everything anywhere near the BWCAW, and as long as I have the right to vote on the issue, I will do so and encourage anybody else I can to do the same. Speaking from personal experience, when there is unlimited copper ore in the uninhabited high alpine areas of Peru, I would never support extraction on the edge of a planetary treasure like the boundary waters. End of story for me.
A question that I've not seen addressed (but may have been) What kind of contractual obligations would be in place for this (majority) Chilean company to continue production even in the event that the price of copper plummets? Base metal prices are notoriously volatile, and who thinks that the mine would continue operations if the market was suddenly glutted by China or Peru or somewhere else? Wouldn't they just shut off the lights and discontinue like the thousands of mines in worldwide history before them?
Google: " high grade copper price history", lots of cool graphs that show incredible growth and volatility since around 2001, before which prices were comparatively stable.

Simple solution. Taxpayers should simply subsidize a company to provide employment in the BWCA area. 5 to 10 million a year ought to make it worth it for a manufacturer to open a factory and employ 100 people full time. Win win.

billconner: "Simple solution. Taxpayers should simply subsidize a company to provide employment in the BWCA area. 5 to 10 million a year ought to make it worth it for a manufacturer to open a factory and employ 100 people full time. Win win."

Former MN governor Rudy Perpich tried something like this with a chopstick factory in Hibbing that lasted 2 years.

billconner: "Simple solution. Taxpayers should simply subsidize a company to provide employment in the BWCA area. 5 to 10 million a year ought to make it worth it for a manufacturer to open a factory and employ 100 people full time. Win win."

I have wondered why a canoe manufacturer hasn't set up shop in the area. Local labor, producing a locally in demand product seems like a no brainer. Keep local dollars local and keep as many non-local dollars as well.

Wouldn't every BWCA outfitter be somewhat obligated to stock that product in their rental flotilla?

OSLO, you keep writing: "I don't know why you keep dodging the supposed upcoming BWCA changes. Even if the changes are just rumors, I'm curious as to what you keep alluding to."
Just keep reading about the BWCAW, and what changes and/or studies are being looked at and draw your own conclusions.
You also ask:
"Yes, the plan is for 20 years. That is the information that we currently have to work with. What evidence do you have that they will operate any longer than that?"
The information I have is experience of living here and working for mining companies as a mechanic for 33 years. The last Mine I worked at was Inland Steel Mining (Now Arcelor/Mittal). It began in 1976 as a 20 year business plan, and it still going strong. Minntac started in 1968 and is still going strong. Both had 20 year business plans in the beginning.
As I said before, I've always tried to offer insight on what's going on in the area, but it falls on either deaf or angry ears many times.
Stop in the shop and I will discuss Ely's history with anyone, but never seem to get a response to my offer.
Have a nice day! :)

OCDave: "

billconner: "Simple solution. Taxpayers should simply subsidize a company to provide employment in the BWCA area. 5 to 10 million a year ought to make it worth it for a manufacturer to open a factory and employ 100 people full time. Win win."

I have wondered why a canoe manufacturer hasn't set up shop in the area. Local labor, producing a locally in demand product seems like a no brainer. Keep local dollars local and keep as many non-local dollars as well.


Wouldn't every BWCA outfitter be somewhat obligated to stock that product in their rental flotilla?"

Unfortunately canoe manufactures are few and far between now days. Look at how many canoe companies there where back in the 80s compared to now. Minnesota has 2 major companies (not sure how many boutique manufacturers) . Most states have none. Even at Canoecopia the canoe displays take up the least amount of space now days compared to other paddling vessels.

The Great Outdoors:
Stop in the shop and I will discuss Ely's history with anyone, but never seem to get a response to my offer.
Have a nice day! :)
"

I'll stop by the next time I'm in Ely.
Wouldn't mind hearing about some of the history around that country, probabally can't stay long.
Thinking pretty hard on being there on Feb 10th for Winterfest.

I wonder how many people don't visit the area because there are no resorts.

We all know the age of visitors to Quetico and the Boundary waters is on the rise. The average age is something like 50. If that continues, then there is a good chance in 20 years there may be half the visitors to both areas. This is probably what environmentalists want anyways, but the outcome on the tourist industry in that case would be devastating.

I personally know that the group of guys I go with would continue to trip in the area if there were options to get to places via flyin and other means in the INTERIOR of the the BWCA and QUETICO. That isn't happening any time soon, but if the visits to those two parks that PAY for the federal usage of those parks continues to decline, GOVERNMENTS might decide to change the usage policy anyways.

I know that multiple members of my group are visiting a Drive in resort area just north of Quetico this year. My group is only 8 guys, but those tourist dollars are going elsewhere, due to the options available.

Finally........given a choice..........Mining or Tourism, I suspect most environmentalists on this thread would take Tourism. Even if that included lodges on some of the larger lakes.......

HM. I wonder.

Later,

Geo

LindenTree3: "

The Great Outdoors:
Stop in the shop and I will discuss Ely's history with anyone, but never seem to get a response to my offer.
Have a nice day! :)
"

I'll stop by the next time I'm in Ely.
Wouldn't mind hearing about some of the history around that country, probabally can't stay long.
Thinking pretty hard on being there on Feb 10th for Winterfest."

Sounds good, will be in the shop until noon or a bit later.

Meanwhile, an admission of failure to meet water pollution standards at Minntac does not speak well of whether environmental protection standards are achievable in the industry. (and, this is ferrous mining...)

schweady: "Meanwhile, an admission of failure to meet water pollution standards at Minntac does not speak well of whether environmental protection standards are achievable in the industry. (and, this is ferrous mining...)
"

Even old miners will tell you Mintac tried and did skirt the law for decades as far as meeting safe environmental standards. I know some miners were even disgusted with themand spoke up.