If one has a permit for a specific entry point, must one enter at a specific location (EP kiosk)? For instance, how does the FS determine that you entered at the correct EP if there are multiple entry points on a lake, or is the entire lake considered an Entry Point? Do they really care or keep track of that?

I have wondered about this too. What keeps the day permit people from just staying overnite? What keeps you from entering whenever/wherever you want? Lol,,tell us about the law dogs on the BWCA! Are they just faster paddlers then everyone else? Do they have battery powered blue lights in their canoes?

Most lakes only have one way to get to them from outside the park. Of course there are some like Snowbank or others that are half in and out.

What EP are you looking at? They're most concerned that you actually start on that lake for traffic control and campsite availability.

If your entry point is #25 on 7-4-18 you need to enter on that entry point on that day. If you get pulled over by the forest service the next day and they see you are on the other side of the BWCA or 8 lakes away than your permit shows it would not go well. That is what the rules say. If a ranger checked your permit you might get fined or escorted out, I don’t know.

And yes they keep track of the entry point data for many reasons like safety of the campers in the event of an evacuation. Think about the blowdown or a forest fire. They know there is a set number of people in that area. Another reason is area maintenance of campsites and portages.

If you enter on another entry point, let’s say Pine Lake, there is is only one permit per day quota. The entry point quota is designed so the specific area does not get overused and there is plenty of campsites for the allotted permits in that area.

Let’s say you got up at midnight, drove to the entry point and arrived at dawn and started paddling. You want to just find a site and relax the first day because you are tired. Now that others have entered into the area when they should have been on another entry point there is nowhere to camp.

Could you enter on another day or entry point, sure. Chances are you will even get away with it. I only get checked about 1/4 of the time. You just need to know why the entry point rules are there.

The rule is in place for not only you, but others.

New this year: turnstiles.











Just kidding.

It's a very large area to patrol and people could probably get away with most anything. The rules are put in place to protect the BWCA and most people respect that. As mentioned most entry points have only one place to enter. Those that have multiple spots on the same lake, it probably doesn't matter as long as you have the correct permit for that EP.

What lake has multiple entry points?

In some cases there different physical places you can enter but you use the closest entry point permit. For example you can enter via the Range River but a Mudro Lake permit is used even though you bipass Mudro.
I entered once through Iron & Two Island Lakes on Skipper permit.

Farm Lake has an EP with a kiosk and ramp. It also has outfitters. I doubt the people at the outfitters go over to the EP to launch. If I paddle from our cabin on White Iron through Farm Lake to the Kawishiwi River, the EP is way out of the way and I don’t go to it. If using a day permit, I just drop it off the day before or when in town at the ranger station. This may be a weird case because the BW doesn’t really start at the EP kiosk. It starts when you cross into the river or South Farm Lake.

Another instance where you do go right into the BW is Lake One. Do the people at Kawishiwi Lodge on Lake One go to the EP or just launch from the lodge’s beach? I’ve seen them launch from the lodge.

But yes, most entry lakes really only have one good place to launch.

I've always thought the entry points were on the boundary of the BWCAW, not the parking areas and landings often referred to. So no matter where you launch on Farm, the entry point is at the boundary where it crosses the Kawishiwi River and there is a sign. Likewise Moose Lake entry isn't the parking lot but a ways up the lake.

billconner: "I've always thought the entry points were on the boundary of the BWCAW, not the parking areas and landings often referred to. So no matter where you launch on Farm, the entry point is at the boundary where it crosses the Kawishiwi River and there is a sign. Likewise Moose Lake entry isn't the parking lot but a ways up the lake. "

The actual physical and geographical boundary of the BWCA isn't necessarily where the kiosk is. Think the Lizz Lake EP. The actual physical boundary to the BWCA is halfway down Lizz Lake, but is accessible only by starting out on Poplar Lake. Same with the Magnetic Lake EP. The BWCA "border" so-to-speak is toward the north end of Magnetic Lake, but accessible only through Gunflint Lake.

Other EPs start right where one would put in, right next to the Kiosk. Think Kawishwi Lake.

Mike

Entering a lake at a specific spot just makes sense... there is a parking lot and a landing or a path to portage your goods. The spot for which you purchased a permit will have a sign. Usually with some information about the area, maybe a rough map, a stack of day permits you could fill out, etc. First lake that came to mind was Burntside for a Crab Lake permit... most everyone starts at the Van Vac landing, I think, but I suppose that there are lots of other starting spots.

Oh, and if you have gear for overnight and are able to only show the FS personnel a self-serve day permit, you're probably going home. And with a lighter wallet. And, these "law dogs," as you call them? Yes, they can paddle faster than any of the guys in our group and they pop up when you least expect it.

We are planning on entering on Seagull Lake which has an entry point (54) with the standard kiosk, an associated parking lot and several outfitters at various locations around the lake. We are renting canoes from one of these outfitters and I wanted to know whether they would need to drop us off at the kiosk/parking lot or if it was acceptable for us to launch near their operation which is not at EP54.

We are not remotely interested in dodging any BWCA regulations and fully understand why there is a limit of the daily entry permits at each EP.

Thanks

SE

SouthernExposure: "We are planning on entering on Seagull Lake which has an entry point (54) with the standard kiosk, an associated parking lot and several outfitters at various locations around the lake. We are renting canoes from one of these outfitters and I wanted to know whether they would need to drop us off at the kiosk/parking lot or if it was acceptable for us to launch near their operation which is not at EP54.


We are not remotely interested in dodging any BWCA regulations and fully understand why there is a limit of the daily entry permits at each EP.


Thanks


SE"

One of the great things about staying at a resort on an entry point lake is taking off in the morning from wherever you find yourself on the lake. The actual entry point/border on Seagull is in the same spot (3 Mile Island area) whether you come from Seagull Outfitters or from the FS lot. No need to paddle out of you way to touch the sign before you resume. :-)

SouthernExposure: "We are planning on entering on Seagull Lake which has an entry point (54) with the standard kiosk, an associated parking lot and several outfitters at various locations around the lake. We are renting canoes from one of these outfitters and I wanted to know whether they would need to drop us off at the kiosk/parking lot or if it was acceptable for us to launch near their operation which is not at EP54.


We are not remotely interested in dodging any BWCA regulations and fully understand why there is a limit of the daily entry permits at each EP.


Thanks


SE"

We have left right from the dock at Seagull Outfitters on Seagull Lake.

MikeinMpls: "

billconner: "I've always thought the entry points were on the boundary of the BWCAW, not the parking areas and landings often referred to. So no matter where you launch on Farm, the entry point is at the boundary where it crosses the Kawishiwi River and there is a sign. Likewise Moose Lake entry isn't the parking lot but a ways up the lake. "

The actual physical and geographical boundary of the BWCA isn't necessarily where the kiosk is. Think the Lizz Lake EP. The actual physical boundary to the BWCA is halfway down Lizz Lake, but is accessible only by starting out on Poplar Lake. Same with the Magnetic Lake EP. The BWCA "border" so-to-speak is toward the north end of Magnetic Lake, but accessible only through Gunflint Lake.

Other EPs start right where one would put in, right next to the Kiosk. Think Kawishwi Lake.

Mike"

Well, like so many of the regs, different interpretations. Worth an inquiry, to which of course there could be as many responses as there are rangers. Hopefully there will be a USFS folks at Canoecopia.

I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?

I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for.

Do you really want to risk getting caught on Lizz Lake or the portage from Poplar to Lizz or from Lizz to Caribou by a ranger? Why didn't you just get a permit for EP 47?

Technically...and ethically you would be wrong to enter at Lizz on a Meeds permit. While in this case it may not make a huge diffference in terms of impact on the wilderness, campsite availability and traffic since you were going to caribou anyways, it's still the rule. Does that matter?

My other thought was if you are taking the portage from Poplar to meeds, which is inded a challenging one, why not stay on Meeds for a night or two? It;s a nice quiet lake with a few good campsites and very good fishing for smallies and walleyes. Much less busy than Caribou. Just a thought...

I had to look at some maps because I don’t know the Lizz, Meeds, Caribou area. It is an odd situation. However, you don’t enter the BWCA on Poplar and so the EP parking lot there is not really where you enter to BW. On the way to Meeds, you enter on the portage just before Meeds Lake. So if you go Lizz to Caribou then you have violated your permit. It would be interesting to call the FS Gunflint office and ask them why the EPS are set up that way. It may spread things out a bit by getting some people to go to Meeds.

If it was my trip, I think I would head to Meeds. If a site is open that looks like a pretty quiet lake. Then I would do a loop south and east to get to a Caribou on the way out.

Tumblehome had a recent podcast discussing this

Northwoodsman: "Do you really want to risk getting caught on Lizz Lake or the portage from Poplar to Lizz or from Lizz to Caribou by a ranger? Why didn't you just get a permit for EP 47?"

Well I would assume if a ranger saw me on Lizz and checked my permit, he would tell me to have a nice day since I'm allowed to be on Lizz after all. I'm just wondering if a ranger would even care if we were on the Lizz portage since they're so close and on the same lake. If they were on different lakes I wouldn't ask.

lindylair: "Technically...and ethically you would be wrong to enter at Lizz on a Meeds permit. While in this case it may not make a huge diffference in terms of impact on the wilderness, campsite availability and traffic since you were going to caribou anyways, it's still the rule. Does that matter?


My other thought was if you are taking the portage from Poplar to meeds, which is inded a challenging one, why not stay on Meeds for a night or two? It;s a nice quiet lake with a few good campsites and very good fishing for smallies and walleyes. Much less busy than Caribou. Just a thought..."

Caribou is just the pass through lake, first night will probably be on Gaskin or Winchell. In my mind it's a rule like the speed limit is a rule. No one drives the speed limit because we all know the police give us 10 over on most roads. That's what I'm trying to figure out. These two entry points are literally next to each other, do the rangers see that as being less than 10 over the limit, so to speak?

Blatz: "Tumblehome had a recent podcast discussing this"

which one?

ATDoel: "I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?


I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for."

Yes, you do need to enter through Meeds if you have a Meeds permit. To do anything else is to break the rules and is selfish. Even though you are camping on Caribou regardless, you are still having an impact on the portages and the level of traffic on the lakes you travel to get there.

There are some strange entry points like the Meeds/Lizz/Caribou one. You can enter at Missing Link, paddle through Snipe and pop into Cross Bay rather quickly. Same type of deal. I'm sure people who want to go to Long Island could use a ML entry if the Cross Bay ones were taken. Just Like people wanting to go to Caribou or Gaskin could use a Meeds entry if all the Lizz permits were taken. Does it make a difference?.......well, if you've ever sat in your canoe for 20 minutes on Lizz waiting for 4 groups to clear the portage to Caribou, than you may say yes it does. If you would add a couple of Meeds entries into that mix, you may wait longer. It's not about the destination always, it's about keeping things thinned out on the journey.

billconner: "

MikeinMpls: "

billconner: "I've always thought the entry points were on the boundary of the BWCAW, not the parking areas and landings often referred to. So no matter where you launch on Farm, the entry point is at the boundary where it crosses the Kawishiwi River and there is a sign. Likewise Moose Lake entry isn't the parking lot but a ways up the lake. "

The actual physical and geographical boundary of the BWCA isn't necessarily where the kiosk is. Think the Lizz Lake EP. The actual physical boundary to the BWCA is halfway down Lizz Lake, but is accessible only by starting out on Poplar Lake. Same with the Magnetic Lake EP. The BWCA "border" so-to-speak is toward the north end of Magnetic Lake, but accessible only through Gunflint Lake.


Other EPs start right where one would put in, right next to the Kiosk. Think Kawishwi Lake.


Mike"

Well, like so many of the regs, different interpretations. Worth an inquiry, to which of course there could be as many responses as there are rangers. Hopefully there will be a USFS folks at Canoecopia."

Check with the USFS? What for? You two are saying precisely the same thing, and I agree with both of you. We often refer to the parking lot and kiosk as the entry point, but it could be more accurately called the launch point in many cases. The true entry point is at the border of the BWCA where the Wilderness signs are usually posted.

Round Lake has a parking lot and kiosk serving entry points 51 and 52, but you are not in the BWCA (and therefore do not even need a permit) until you get to the Wilderness signs at Missing Link or the portage out of Edith to Brant. Cross Bay Lake is another interesting one. It has occurred to me that if I had a permit for Cross Bay for Friday, I could park at the lot and paddle in to Ham Lake and camp there on Thursday with no problem because all of Ham Lake is actually outside of the BWCA. Then I could pack up and enter Cross Bay Lake the next day.

ATDoel: "

Northwoodsman: "Do you really want to risk getting caught on Lizz Lake or the portage from Poplar to Lizz or from Lizz to Caribou by a ranger? Why didn't you just get a permit for EP 47?"

Well I would assume if a ranger saw me on Lizz and checked my permit, he would tell me to have a nice day since I'm allowed to be on Lizz after all. I'm just wondering if a ranger would even care if we were on the Lizz portage since they're so close and on the same lake. If they were on different lakes I wouldn't ask.

lindylair: "Technically...and ethically you would be wrong to enter at Lizz on a Meeds permit. While in this case it may not make a huge diffference in terms of impact on the wilderness, campsite availability and traffic since you were going to caribou anyways, it's still the rule. Does that matter?

.."

"

How would it be okay to be on Lizz? I would assume you would get a warning or fine if on the first day a Ranger checked your permit. If the Permit is for Meeds you have to travel directly to Meeds not through another entry point like Lizz. Why didn’t you just get a Lizz Lake entry if that is the direction you wanted to travel? If it was because they were taken then there is sort of your answer, by going through Lizz you are adding to the congestion and crowding—-they spread people out through the different entries for a reason—-so yes technically what you are doing/proposing is illegal and could result in a fine. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, but you asked...

T

ATDoel: "I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?

I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for."

I know people that have been fined for breaking the BWCAW regulations.

The following direct from the forest service document - Link Below.
The following are enforceable Forest Service regulations (maximum penalty of $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail).
TRAVEL PERMITS• You must enter the BWCAW at the entry point and on the entry date shown on your permit.•
You may not re-enter on a different date using the same permit.•
Permit stubs become invalid when the group leader exits the wilderness.•
The person signing for and picking up the permit can only be responsible for one group during the specified time on the permit.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3799760.pdf Forest Service document

DanCooke: "

ATDoel: "I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?


I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for."

I know people that have been fined for breaking the BWCAW regulations.


The following direct from the forest service document - Link Below.
The following are enforceable Forest Service regulations (maximum penalty of $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail).
TRAVEL PERMITS• You must enter the BWCAW at the entry point and on the entry date shown on your permit.•
You may not re-enter on a different date using the same permit.•
Permit stubs become invalid when the group leader exits the wilderness.•
The person signing for and picking up the permit can only be responsible for one group during the specified time on the permit.


https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3799760.pdf Forest Service document "

Pretty clear there Dan! As is the entry points. I’m guessing the people fudging on this rule are the first to complain about crowded portages and full campsites.

"


How would it be okay to be on Lizz? I would assume you would get a warning or fine if on the first day a Ranger checked your permit. If the Permit is for Meeds you have to travel directly to Meeds not through another entry point like Lizz. Why didn’t you just get a Lizz Lake entry if that is the direction you wanted to travel? If it was because they were taken then there is sort of your answer, by going through Lizz you are adding to the congestion and crowding—-they spread people out through the different entries for a reason—-so yes technically what you are doing/proposing is illegal and could result in a fine. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, but you asked...


T"

Lizz is in the BWCA, there's no reason I can't be on that lake. Meeds is so close to Lizz that you could easily paddle there from Meeds on the day you come in.

I can certainly understanding not wanting to crowd the portage though. Since the Lizz portage is so short, I'll probably check and see if anyone is on it/around it. If there's no one nearby, I'll just go ahead and take it.

I guess what it comes down to for me is the literal law as it's written vs the intent of the law. The intent of the law is to keep areas of the park and the entry points from getting too crowded. If I can make sure I'm not doing either of those things, I don't feel like I'm violating anything. Like driving 75 in a 70 which we all do.

There's a thread on here from a police officer talking about this very thing. His discussion was about leaving the BWCA and coming back in on the same day on the same permit. According to him, the rangers said that was fine even if technically it didn't follow the law as written because it didn't violate the intent of the law.

It would be pretty obvious if you are on Lizz, or the portage in to it or out of it with a Meeds permit. There are no campsites on Lizz and you enter the BWCA about 1/3 of the way across the long narrow lake. They may question that you are just out checking out the lake with a canoe of packs, a tent, your sleeping gear, etc. I guess I don't understand why you would risk a fine, and/or getting kicked out just to save some time on one portage. My guess is you may save 30 minutes.

Not that any time is a good time to break the rules, but this year in particular has been bad for the BWCA because of all the newbies and rule-breakers. I'm sure a lot of us our thinking that if you break this law, what other laws or rules are you going to break? Washing dishes in the lake, bathing in the lake with soap, digging a trench around your tent, stripping bark off live trees, cutting down live trees, fires outside the grate, dumping trash in the latrine, bringing in metal cans or glass, camping at a non-designated site, building a shelter, leaving trash behind, burning it, or burying it, occupying multiple campsites, fishing without as license, etc. The majority of us on this site are rule followers and are protective of our wilderness. We would appreciate that you do the same.

I have entered both Seagull and Lake One directly from the outfitters, and I am sure that is within the rules. If you have a question on whether something is legal or not, just reach out to the FS and ask, they will tell you! But on the Lizz Lake question...if you are asking if it is ok to break the law because you aren’t violating the intent of the law...I have a hard time seeing that theory hold water. If you get pulled over for speeding and tell the officer that you weren’t violating the intent of the law they’d laugh in your face and you can argue that in court. Good luck. I always travel with my kids...and I damn sure am not going to teach them that sometimes it is ok to break the rules because I have some way to justify it. Just ask the FS, via email, and print that email to have with you in case things are fuzzy. Follow the rules. They are there for a reason.

ATDoel you keep coming back to justifying breaking the rule to enter at the permitted day and entry point. just so you know Lizz Lake - approximately 1/3 is outside the BWCAW. It is a very narrow lake with the portage from Poplar Lake on the north and the Portage to Caribou on the south. It would be obvious to anyone on the lake where you were coming from. I lived nearby for 3 years and know the area well.

It is the Regulation that is published and known, "TRAVEL PERMITS• You must enter the BWCAW at the entry point and on the entry date shown on your permit. " and if your posts are looked at before the judge hands down your punishment for breaking the rule, it clearly shows you were aware of the regulation.

Entering from a start on Poplar Lake? You must hold the appropriate permit that correlates with the spot you choose to cross the wilderness boundary.

Not rocket science.

scotttimm: "I have entered both Seagull and Lake One directly from the outfitters, and I am sure that is within the rules. If you have a question on whether something is legal or not, just reach out to the FS and ask, they will tell you! But on the Lizz Lake question...if you are asking if it is ok to break the law because you aren’t violating the intent of the law...I have a hard time seeing that theory hold water. If you get pulled over for speeding and tell the officer that you weren’t violating the intent of the law they’d laugh in your face and you can argue that in court. Good luck. I always travel with my kids...and I damn sure am not going to teach them that sometimes it is ok to break the rules because I have some way to justify it. Just ask the FS, via email, and print that email to have with you in case things are fuzzy. Follow the rules. They are there for a reason."

Do you ever drive 1 mph or more over the speed limit?

ATDoel: "

scotttimm: "I have entered both Seagull and Lake One directly from the outfitters, and I am sure that is within the rules. If you have a question on whether something is legal or not, just reach out to the FS and ask, they will tell you! But on the Lizz Lake question...if you are asking if it is ok to break the law because you aren’t violating the intent of the law...I have a hard time seeing that theory hold water. If you get pulled over for speeding and tell the officer that you weren’t violating the intent of the law they’d laugh in your face and you can argue that in court. Good luck. I always travel with my kids...and I damn sure am not going to teach them that sometimes it is ok to break the rules because I have some way to justify it. Just ask the FS, via email, and print that email to have with you in case things are fuzzy. Follow the rules. They are there for a reason."

Do you ever drive 1 mph or more over the speed limit?"

I'm not claiming that I've never sped. In fact, it is well known in two nearby small towns that you'll get ticketed for going just a couple over the speed limit. I've been ticketed for going 3mph over the speed limit. When I look down at that dial, if I am speeding, I know I am taking a chance because I am knowingly breaking the law. I try as best I can not to, and I certainly call my teenage son out on it when I see he is over the limit (and he, me!).
My main point - if you are in doubt as to whether or not it is ok, just call or email the Forest Service. They'll tell you. If you don't want to call and ask, that may tell you something about if what you are doing is wrong or not.

There have been a ton of threads on here about how many people have been breaking the rules, and many instances of people either not having permits or people entering EP's without a permit for that EP. On my two trips this summer, both times parking lots were absolutely packed. I don't think, on this board, you'll find many people offer sympathy for your wanting to bend the rules - especially in a year like this.

scotttimm: "

ATDoel: "

scotttimm: "I have entered both Seagull and Lake One directly from the outfitters, and I am sure that is within the rules. If you have a question on whether something is legal or not, just reach out to the FS and ask, they will tell you! But on the Lizz Lake question...if you are asking if it is ok to break the law because you aren’t violating the intent of the law...I have a hard time seeing that theory hold water. If you get pulled over for speeding and tell the officer that you weren’t violating the intent of the law they’d laugh in your face and you can argue that in court. Good luck. I always travel with my kids...and I damn sure am not going to teach them that sometimes it is ok to break the rules because I have some way to justify it. Just ask the FS, via email, and print that email to have with you in case things are fuzzy. Follow the rules. They are there for a reason."

Do you ever drive 1 mph or more over the speed limit?"

I'm not claiming that I've never sped. In fact, it is well known in two nearby small towns that you'll get ticketed for going just a couple over the speed limit. I've been ticketed for going 3mph over the speed limit. When I look down at that dial, if I am speeding, I know I am taking a chance because I am knowingly breaking the law. I try as best I can not to, and I certainly call my teenage son out on it when I see he is over the limit (and he, me!).
My main point - if you are in doubt as to whether or not it is ok, just call or email the Forest Service. They'll tell you. If you don't want to call and ask, that may tell you something about if what you are doing is wrong or not.


There have been a ton of threads on here about how many people have been breaking the rules, and many instances of people either not having permits or people entering EP's without a permit for that EP. On my two trips this summer, both times parking lots were absolutely packed. I don't think, on this board, you'll find many people offer sympathy for your wanting to bend the rules - especially in a year like this."

Well back to the speeding analogy, if you call your police department and ask if you can go 5 mph over the limit, of course they aren't going to give you permission but that doesn't mean they're going to give you a ticket for it or even care if you do.

What it really comes down to is it more important to follow the spirit of the law or the letter of the law? I would say the spirit of the law is the more important of the two. If you're parking in your designated parking lot, camping where you're allowed, buying your appropriate permits, and not crowding a different EP, then you're following the spirit of the law even if you're not following the letter of the law. It's an argument as old as laws themselves. From the sound of it, you also side with the spirit of the law as you willfully speed a few miles over the limit.

So back to the speeding analogy. If you had a permit to enter on Sept. 10th but you drove up late on the 9th and entered at 11:30 p.m., that would be like driving 5 mph over the limit. But in this case since you are entering without a valid permit for the EP you are entering it's more like getting pulled over for not having a license or having a revoked license. I'm pretty sure the officer wouldn't give you a warning and let you drive off.

If there wasn't a valid reason for having specific entry points then Poplar Lake would be the EP.

Northwoodsman: "So back to the speeding analogy. If you had a permit to enter on Sept. 10th but you drove up late on the 9th and entered at 11:30 p.m., that would be like driving 5 mph over the limit. But in this case since you are entering without a valid permit for the EP you are entering it's more like getting pulled over for not having a license or having a revoked license. I'm pretty sure the officer wouldn't give you a warning and let you drive off.

If there wasn't a valid reason for having specific entry points then Poplar Lake would be the EP."

I would say entering at 11:30 PM would be about the same as entering an empty EP on the same lake your EP is on. Both follow the spirit of the law while not following the letter.

Much like entering BWCA, realizing you forgot your medication, then going back to your car to get it without getting a new permit. That doesn't follow the letter of the law but I'm sure a lot of people here have done it and I really doubt a ranger would care as it follows the spirit.

It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, but you haven't convinced me or others here, and I don't care to hear any more of your arguments or excuses. You are talking about clearly, willfully disobeying the law. I don't believe what you are doing is right nor ethical, no matter how many analogies or "what if's" you put out there. If everyone interpreted their own version of the "spirit of the law", we'd all be screwed.

scotttimm: "It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, but you haven't convinced me or others here, and I don't care to hear any more of your arguments or excuses. You are talking about clearly, willfully disobeying the law. I don't believe what you are doing is right nor ethical, no matter how many analogies or "what if's" you put out there. If everyone interpreted their own version of the "spirit of the law", we'd all be screwed. "

Everyone does, whether they know it or not. Police officers, judges, and even Supreme Court Justices are constantly having to interpret what the spirit of a law is when passing judgement. Are you going to tell someone they have to pull a new entry permit if they step one foot in the BWCA, then realize they forgot something? I doubt it.

I've gotten the information I need to make a decision I think is best for myself. EP crowding is an issue I didn't think of, so I'll make sure to only use it if it's empty. Thanks for the info!

scotttimm: "It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, but you haven't convinced me or others here, and I don't care to hear any more of your arguments or excuses. You are talking about clearly, willfully disobeying the law. I don't believe what you are doing is right nor ethical, no matter how many analogies or "what if's" you put out there. If everyone interpreted their own version of the "spirit of the law", we'd all be screwed. "

I agree. ATDoel has not convinced anyone so he'll just do what is "best for myself". Come on, ATDoel, follow the advice you requested. If not, then why ask in the first place?

Castaway: "

scotttimm: "It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, but you haven't convinced me or others here, and I don't care to hear any more of your arguments or excuses. You are talking about clearly, willfully disobeying the law. I don't believe what you are doing is right nor ethical, no matter how many analogies or "what if's" you put out there. If everyone interpreted their own version of the "spirit of the law", we'd all be screwed. "

I agree. ATDoel has not convinced anyone so he'll just do what is "best for myself". Come on, ATDoel, follow the advice you requested. If not, then why ask in the first place? "

I've been following this conversation. He is just trolling. But it does fall into the theme as of late that rules are for other people, so I'll do what I want. Which is sad.

ATDoel is clearly a troll. He/she isn't actually looking for an answer, several correct answers have been provided. He/she seems like the kind of BWCA visitor who brings in a few cans of beer ("I'm packing it out, so I'm not violating the intent of the law"), bathes in the lake ("it's biodegradable soap!,") and burns tinfoil ("it burned in my corn stove back home, for sure.") The excuses are similar to the ones found in the "holding a campsite" thread a couple months ago ("I'm not really occupying two sites at once, I'm just 'holding' them.")

I so hope wilderness values and ethics return to us soon.

Mike

ATDoel: "

scotttimm: "It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself, but you haven't convinced me or others here, and I don't care to hear any more of your arguments or excuses. You are talking about clearly, willfully disobeying the law. I don't believe what you are doing is right nor ethical, no matter how many analogies or "what if's" you put out there. If everyone interpreted their own version of the "spirit of the law", we'd all be screwed. "

Everyone does, whether they know it or not. Police officers, judges, and even Supreme Court Justices are constantly having to interpret what the spirit of a law is when passing judgement. Are you going to tell someone they have to pull a new entry permit if they step one foot in the BWCA, then realize they forgot something? I doubt it.


I've gotten the information I need to make a decision I think is best for myself. EP crowding is an issue I didn't think of, so I'll make sure to only use it if it's empty. Thanks for the info!"

The Lizz portage that you are trying to use in place of Meeds is often busy and backed up. The two portages aren't necessarily close to each other, so I would doubt you would back track to Meeds if "crowding is an issue". Please use the entry point you have a permit for. I went through Meeds earlier this year and it is not so bad. There are four nice boardwalks along the trail.

More frustrating for me is that a lot of people try to find ways to break the law and justify it with reasons that are acceptable to them.

The crazy campsite destruction, noise, garbage in camps is the exact result of rule breaking. For one moment, think how much better off we would all be if people didn’t break the BWCA rules. Sure there are many interpretations one can explore of a rule but the truth is, there is a reasonable, prudent answer to most every rule that makes sense.

Tom

ATDoel if you follow your interpretation of the rules, Then get caught and cited for the violation, you should plead not guilty and go in front of a federal judge and explain the rule of the law vs the intent of the law. Please let me know the court date and location, I would like to be there When the judge tells you how much your interpretation is going to cost you. Bring your checkbook.

ATDoel: "
I guess what it comes down to for me is the literal law as it's written vs the intent of the law. "

----And both the letter and spirit say enter at where you should enter.

Simple.

So I'm assuming all of you guys would go pull another entry permit if you realized you forgot your meds after stepping into the BWCA and had to go back to your vehicle? And if there were no more available, you would cancel your trip? Because that's how the rule is written.

I've spent a lot of time in these waters and have never, not once, left anything, burned anything, or cut anything I wasn't supposed to. Hell, I don't even bathe when I'm in there. Ok, I have left a few lures stuck to the bottom of a few lakes, I'll admit that.

ATDoel - if I ran across you on the portage and we started talking and we both realized that you were accidentally on the wrong portage because of an error in reading your map, or something similar, I would laugh along side you and probably even go ahead and act as your lookout for rangers until you got into Caribou. But the fact is that you are knowingly planning on doing this on purpose because there isn't a permit available for the EP that you wanted. Not acceptable.

ATDoel: "So I'm assuming all of you guys would go pull another entry permit if you realized you forgot your meds after stepping into the BWCA and had to go back to your vehicle? And if there were no more available, you would cancel your trip? Because that's how the rule is written.


I've spent a lot of time in these waters and have never, not once, left anything, burned anything, or cut anything I wasn't supposed to. Hell, I don't even bathe when I'm in there. Ok, I have left a few lures stuck to the bottom of a few lakes, I'll admit that."

Your example equates an emergency situation with breaking a law because of convenience. If going back for meds, you could always fill out a day use permit and apologize, but yes, you could get fined.. I have seen multiple posts talking about how full the BWCA has been this year, families paddling late as lakes are full, people entering without permits or permits for different lakes.

Why don’t you just get a permit for the lake you want to enter? I don’t get the stubbornness. And if you’re so proud of your wilderness ethics, you’d want the rules that are there to limit impact enforced.

But yeah, everyone else is wrong, you must be right. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Justify away. It’s the new normal apparently.

scotttimm: "

ATDoel: "So I'm assuming all of you guys would go pull another entry permit if you realized you forgot your meds after stepping into the BWCA and had to go back to your vehicle? And if there were no more available, you would cancel your trip? Because that's how the rule is written.



I've spent a lot of time in these waters and have never, not once, left anything, burned anything, or cut anything I wasn't supposed to. Hell, I don't even bathe when I'm in there. Ok, I have left a few lures stuck to the bottom of a few lakes, I'll admit that."

Your example equates an emergency situation with breaking a law because of convenience. If going back for meds, you could always fill out a day use permit and apologize, but yes, you could get fined.. I have seen multiple posts talking about how full the BWCA has been this year, families paddling late as lakes are full, people entering without permits or permits for different lakes.


Why don’t you just get a permit for the lake you want to enter? I don’t get the stubbornness. And if you’re so proud of your wilderness ethics, you’d want the rules that are there to limit impact enforced.


But yeah, everyone else is wrong, you must be right. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Justify away. It’s the new normal apparently."

As soon as you step into that parking lot to get meds, or whatever else you forgot, your permit is invalid. You need a new entry permit, not a day permit. So again, what are you going to do? Get a new entry permit? If there are none, are you going home? Or are you just going to go back in and pretend like it never happened?

I have a hard time believing that there is a single person here who would pack up and go home even though, as the rule is written, they would have to if they couldn't get another entry permit. That's because we are all judging what the spirit of the rule is, not what's literally written, and deem that we aren't really breaking anything.

ATDoel: "I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?


I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for."

Yes it does matter and to say you are not crowding any part of the BWCA is not entirely accurate. Permits do not only control traffic at campsites but also at portages. The Lizz EP is a popular entry point and usually books up first because it provides easier access to Caribou. I've been through there several times and I have yet to have those portages to myself, we're always sharing the portage with at least one extra group that is either coming in or going out. If you skip the Meeds EP in favor of Lizz you're adding more traffic to an already busy EP and adding unneeded congestion. In reality skipping the congestion is probably to your benefit as you'll likely have the Meeds portage to yourself. Of all the portages I've used in the BWCA I'd say the portage from Poplar to Lizz is the one where I've experienced the most chaos and I'd be eager to skip that if possible.

It really is simple, enter at the EP listed on your permit on the day listed on your permit.

If there is an EP where the border of the BWCA doesn't start until half way across a lake then I don't think it matters what water route you take to get to that point. You can access the non-bwca side of the lake at any point and start your paddle, the idea is that you haven't entered the BWCA until you cross the border.

ATDoel, clearly you're going to do what you want even if a dozen people are telling you that you are wrong. Feel free to justify it any way you want but lets be 100% clear about something, this is all about laziness. Intentionally ignoring the rules to benefit yourself is wrong and there is no way to justify it to make it right. The wilderness has been full of people intentionally ignoring the rules all season and its been a worse place because of it. You can choose to add to the problem if you'd like but don't expect to get anyone here to agree with you and don't be surprised if you have more than a few members cheering for you to be caught.

This ATDoel is a tool. His/her posts have now become trolling.

Mike

ATDoel, what day are you planning to enter? Maybe someone would trade permits with ya... ;)

This troll fella seems like the sort to also fish with two rods at the same time, maybe even post pictures of it happening. Sad what's happening up there this year. Hopefully we cross paths when I'm up there next week after suggesting to a ranger that he check that Poplar portage very closely.

FWIW, I'm hoping to stay on Snipe next week with a Missing Link permit instead of going through in and through Cross Bay like I wanted to because all the permits were pulled that would've allowed it to be an easier trip. I wish the penalty for rule breaking came with harsher punishment and long term banishment.

Interesting, lots of rule breakers in this thread.

So who here is cancelling their trip if they forget something in their car? Can't break any rules after all :)

VaderStrom: "ATDoel, what day are you planning to enter? Maybe someone would trade permits with ya... ;)

This troll fella seems like the sort to also fish with two rods at the same time, maybe even post pictures of it happening. Sad what's happening up there this year. Hopefully we cross paths when I'm up there next week after suggesting to a ranger that he check that Poplar portage very closely.


FWIW, I'm hoping to stay on Snipe next week with a Missing Link permit instead of going through in and through Cross Bay like I wanted to because all the permits were pulled that would've allowed it to be an easier trip. I wish the penalty for rule breaking came with harsher punishment and long term banishment."

The 25th, going in really early Friday so I can't imagine there would be anyone on the portage. If there is, I'll head to Meeds.

Or I can trade with you ;)

You got a Meeds entry permit, so enter via Meeds. Stop trying to cheat and rationalize. Also, it is possible for conditional rules to exist in the BWCA. I'm not sure if any specific rules apply to the Lizz/Meeds area, but one I do know of is that only people with Crocodile Lake entry permits are allowed on Crocodile Lake; you're not allowed to get an East Bearskin permit and then visit Crocodile. Likewise, those with Crocodile permits must stay there. I have no doubt that rangers would check your permit on Lizz, and if it says Meeds and you were entering, not exiting, they would likely intervene--either by telling to you turn around and go to the Meeds portage or by issuing you a find and/or escorting you out.

You speak of honoring the spirit of the rule, not the letter of it. The fact that they have separated permits for Meeds and Lizz, two lakes that are right next to each other and accessed via the same lake (Poplar) demonstrates that the spirit of the rule is to keep traffic separated. If they didn't care about people with Meeds permits entering via Lizz, there wouldn't BE Meeds permits in the first place. This is further proven by the fact that they DO combine Swamp with Lizz onto one permit. The exclusion of Meeds is extremely deliberate.

Regarding Tumblehome podcast's discussion of a similar subject, they were discussing it in the South Lake episode--pondering the technical legality of entering South Lake via the trail from Mayhew to Topper Lake. This route seems to be widely accepted, but they didn't sound sure if it is officially accepted or not.

You can justify anything with a false equivalency.

Apples are red. Apples come from trees. Oranges come from trees. Oranges are also red because they come from trees!

ATDoel:

The 25th, going in really early Friday so I can't imagine there would be anyone on the portage. If there is, I'll head to Meeds.
Or I can trade with you ;)"

Best hope the forest service doesn't read this and wait for you you could end up with less money in your wallet.

You seem awfully scared to take a portage that isn't even a mile long. Just take the single portage that defines your permit, suck it up, it's not that bad. If you're not capable of it then get a different permit.

ATDoel: "The 25th, going in really early Friday so I can't imagine there would be anyone on the portage. If there is, I'll head to Meeds.

"

4 groups will already be going into Lizz that morning and likely more groups heading out. Just go to Meeds.

Are you physically unable to handle the Meeds portage? Seems like you really fear it...If so then why did you get that permit? Maybe that is the reason for the permit dispersal? What if your group can’t handle it—-it sounds like they can’t—-and you end up camping on Meeds instead of Caribou. That is sort of the point of different entries is to disperse groups entering and camping.

It really isn’t that hard just enter where the permit tells you too. In the whole scheme of things I am not going to lose sleep but there is no way to justify this.

T

DanCooke: "

ATDoel:


The 25th, going in really early Friday so I can't imagine there would be anyone on the portage. If there is, I'll head to Meeds.
Or I can trade with you ;)"

Best hope the forest service doesn't read this and wait for you you could end up with less money in your wallet."

I could think of many better uses of their time and I really doubt they would even fine me. The ones I've spoken to have been nice guys.

Cricket67: 4 groups will already be going into Lizz that morning and likely more groups heading out. Just go to Meeds. "

I doubt they get there before me but if they are there, or within view behind me, I'll go to Meeds. I'm not going to adversely impact that entry.

At this point, this tool is clearly posting simply to antagonize. And getting the last word in appears important to him, too. I suggest we just let this clown go on their merry way and add them to the long list of inexperienced paddlers and/or BWCA rule violators that many of us have experienced this year. He doesn't understand the BWCA, and likely never will. If he did, he wouldn't keep coming back with his blither, ad naseum.

Mike

ATDoel: "
I doubt they get there before me but if they are there, or within view behind me, I'll go to Meeds. I'm not going to adversely impact that entry."

Somehow I doubt that. Your decision to go through Lizz instead of meeds is a product of laziness. I highly doubt you'll suddenly find the extra work ethic to paddle the extra mile or more over to the Meeds EP if you find someone at the Lizz portage.

nofish: "

ATDoel: "
I doubt they get there before me but if they are there, or within view behind me, I'll go to Meeds. I'm not going to adversely impact that entry."

Somehow I doubt that. Your decision to go through Lizz instead of meeds is a product of laziness. I highly doubt you'll suddenly find the extra work ethic to paddle the extra mile or more over to the Meeds EP if you find someone at the Lizz portage. "

I've already said I was going to attempt to take the Lizz portage despite the opposition, why would I start lying now? I'm not going to do anything that's going to adversely effect the park or users of the park. Worst case scenario, I float around and read a book until the portage is clear, it'll depend on how my knees feel on the day.

ATDoel, I highly recommend using Meeds portage and heading to Omega/Winchell. You likely won't see anyone all day. And in my opinion, more enjoyable lakes to stay on than Caribou/Horeshoe. Those lakes are nice too, just busy. Enjoy your trip. And let's end this thread/

ATDoel: "

nofish: "

ATDoel: "
I doubt they get there before me but if they are there, or within view behind me, I'll go to Meeds. I'm not going to adversely impact that entry."

Somehow I doubt that. Your decision to go through Lizz instead of meeds is a product of laziness. I highly doubt you'll suddenly find the extra work ethic to paddle the extra mile or more over to the Meeds EP if you find someone at the Lizz portage. "

I've already said I was going to attempt to take the Lizz portage despite the opposition, why would I start lying now? I'm not going to do anything that's going to adversely effect the park or users of the park. Worst case scenario, I float around and read a book until the portage is clear, it'll depend on how my knees feel on the day."

Not sure if you're lying now about going to meeds if Lizz has another group but just in this one post you've already changed your tune saying you may just float around and wait for the portage to clear. So that tells me you're already written off ever going to the Meeds EP like you should. You've already dug your hole about as deep as you can. We all know you're using the Lizz EP when you shouldn't be. What more do you hope to gain? You're not going to get anyone here to tell you its ok or agree that its a minor rule infraction thats no big deal. Honestly this entire thread hasn't shown you in a very good light. I realize its only an online reputation on an BWCA forum but reputation still matters to a lot of us. You may want to consider what this type of attitude does to your reputation here.

Trolls don't usually last long on this site. Just a matter of time now.

And I have no doubt that the USFS has already been notified of your intentions. After this years mess I'd venture to say that they are more than willing to make an example of someone.

I'm sure the date he gave is not the correct date. An a--hole is going to do what an A--hole wants to do.

Agree the thread should die now. We all had our opinions. Not changing anyone’s minds. Don’t approve Of this action, frustrating how clueless people are that this action could affect others but In the whole scheme of things There are worse things people do.

T

I just wanted to point out one other entry point that has this potential. Duncan can be accessed from Moss, although the normal way is through Bearskin. We actually went in on Moss this year when we showed up to a Bearskin disaster zone. The lot was completely full with multiple groups completely blocking the path down to Bearskin and gear strewn everywhere. I think since moss isn't technically in the bwca, you are still entering at Duncan.

Wolfee: "I just wanted to point out one other entry point that has this potential. Duncan can be accessed from Moss, although the normal way is through Bearskin. We actually went in on Moss this year when we showed up to a Bearskin disaster zone. The lot was completely full with multiple groups completely blocking the path down to Bearskin and gear strewn everywhere. I think since moss isn't technically in the bwca, you are still entering at Duncan.


"

In this case there is not a separate entry point from moss to Duncan, so I would be very confident that you were still totally legal in this case. The same permit would cover either portage into Duncan.

You will never change a narcissists mind.

straighthairedcurly: "

ATDoel: "I have an overnight entry permit in the BWCA for Meeds Lake but does it really matter to FW if I go into Lizz Lake instead?



I fully understand and support why they limit entry point permits but these two entries are right next to each other on Poplar and I'm going to Caribou regardless of which entry point I use, so I'm not going to be crowding any part of the BWCA I don't have a permit for."

Yes, you do need to enter through Meeds if you have a Meeds permit. To do anything else is to break the rules and is selfish. Even though you are camping on Caribou regardless, you are still having an impact on the portages and the level of traffic on the lakes you travel to get there. "

I agree 100%. The rules are there for a reason and should be followed. I would say the same thing about someone leaving their gear at one site, exiting the BW, driving down the Gunflint Trail until they are able to get cell service, making a call and then returning and re-entering the BW in order to stay one additional night.

Jaywalker: "

billconner: "

MikeinMpls: "


Check with the USFS? What for? You two are saying precisely the same thing, and I agree with both of you. We often refer to the parking lot and kiosk as the entry point, but it could be more accurately called the launch point in many cases. The true entry point is at the border of the BWCA where the Wilderness signs are usually posted.


Round Lake has a parking lot and kiosk serving entry points 51 and 52, but you are not in the BWCA (and therefore do not even need a permit) until you get to the Wilderness signs at Missing Link or the portage out of Edith to Brant. Cross Bay Lake is another interesting one. It has occurred to me that if I had a permit for Cross Bay for Friday, I could park at the lot and paddle in to Ham Lake and camp there on Thursday with no problem because all of Ham Lake is actually outside of the BWCA. Then I could pack up and enter Cross Bay Lake the next day. "

I whole-heartedly agree that the rules set up for use of the BWCA are established for the benefit of everyone and should be followed even if there are ways one could "get by" without doing so, but I can't help but be amused that one of us in this discussion about following the "letter of the law" uses the screen name "jaywalker"

You could go into Carriboo from Poplar through Swamp. Probably not very crowded.