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PikeChase
member (50)member
  
01/30/2018 07:52AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Last night I was researching entry points and I came across an article by an outfitter who was seemingly blasting people who basecamp. I had never considered that basecamping would be frowned upon. With my group we typically have a plan of pushing hard our first day and staying a few lakes in. After a day or two we plan to go in a little further and then the second to last day we want to switch sites to get closer to our exit. That's worked sometimes but there's been some trips where we've just stayed on our initial site for the whole trip. Reasons were the fishing was really good, the lake we wanted to stay on our last night was busy and full so we wanted to make sure we still had an easy out our last day or we were just enjoying our time and relaxing on the lake and didn't feel like packing up and moving multiple times.

I guess I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are? Is basecamping something that should be avoided? If you do feel that way, how many nights are acceptable to stay on a site?
 
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treehorn
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01/30/2018 08:19AM  
I'd be interested to see that article.

There's degrees of "basecamping." Generally speaking, if you follow all the rules in this document, nobody has a right to tell you you are doing anything wrong at all. 9 people, 4 canoes, 14 nights max at a given site, etc.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5127832.pdf

The gripes you will hear (from outfitters, other campers, etc) would usually pertain to sketchy practices you hear about where an outfitter will go out and establish a camp for a group, then ferry them there (motorboat if allowed) with kegs of beer, large mosquito tents, full size grills, etc. Then maybe even re-supply when/if necessary. Or people that establish camp on an entry lake and continually go in and out to re-supply themselves or something.

Those are things people will take issue with. I can't imagine why anyone would bat an eye at you staying 2-3-4-5 nights at a site, especially a few portages in.
01/30/2018 08:21AM  
2 weeks on the same site is acceptable to me. After seeing most and traveling almost 60 years in the BWCA I now am lucky that I can walk from the parking lot to the entry much less than pack up and keep moving every day. I now go to relax, fish and enjoy, not to kill myself. But, I keep going :)
inspector13
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01/30/2018 08:22AM  

How could anyone tell others how they should enjoy their vacation time? Maybe the article was written by someone that needs to be less judgmental. Do what is the best for you. This is coming from a person that enjoys exploring more than base camping.

Fyresparxx
member (46)member
  
01/30/2018 08:30AM  
I've done a loop where we pushed hard every day, and it made us decide that we would rather push hard for a couple days and then base camp for a while before heading out again. Once we were a couple lakes in we only ever saw one or two other groups anyway. With other open sites on the lake I don't know why they would complain about our camping habits.

Just as long as you're following all the rules, not making a nuisance of yourselves, and not taking a campsite for more than two weeks, I think you're fine. You should enjoy your vacation the way you like to.
01/30/2018 08:46AM  
I have basecamped every trip for the last 40 years, and the reason for this is very simple. My trips are all about the fishing. I don’t care what anybody says, it takes more then a couple days to truly learn a lake and it’s patterns for that particular week. There have been many times when I did not get on the fish on the first or second day of fishing, but after working my butt off through trial and error,and many hours on the water the lake turns into a fish factory. Even when I’m not catching fish those first few days I don’t get discouraged, the challenge of the hunt is very rewarding.
PikeChase
member (50)member
  
01/30/2018 08:46AM  
"Limited campsites as many Twin Cities dwellers now believe that driving 4.5 hours from the south and paddling 30 minutes is now a wilderness experience. Sites can be booked with basecampers who think nothing of wearing everything out by not moving for 7 days in a stretch."

This is the quote I read that got me thinking about it. I don't want to post the link. The lake in question is the first lake in to the entry point. But if you don't mind dealing with crowds and boat traffic and that's how you want to trip I don't understand what would be wrong with it. I know it's not a written rule that you can't basecamp, just wondering if there was an unwritten rule I wasn't aware of. Like baseball. :)

The post does go on to complain about people leaving the BWCA to run back to town and return to their site later in the day, which I'm in full agreement is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated.
thlipsis29
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01/30/2018 09:38AM  
I'm with many of the others who have posted: I'm there to fish and don't want to expend the time and effort to move every day or every other day. Maybe there will come a point where I'll want to do a loop or something like that, but until the U.S. Forest Service changes any of the rules, I wouldn't concern myself with other's unwritten rules. Obviously if people are leaving the BWCA to run into town and then returning to their site throughout their stay, that is a violation of the entry point rules and shouldn't be tolerated.
treehorn
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01/30/2018 09:40AM  
I take that as their explanation as to why campsites may be limited or possibly unavailable on that lake. They did add some snarkiness into the comment, which was probably unnecessary, but maybe they think it somehow appeals to more "hardcore" trippers they are trying to attract. Or, they gave it little thought and someone with a chip on their shoulder wrote it, posted it, and they never thought about it again.
JJ505
member (13)member
  
01/30/2018 10:21AM  
IMO, it depends on what your goals are. If you are into fishing and fishing is good somewhere, or you want to have a relaxing time, or whatever. Not everyone would have fun busting their butts getting from one place to another. I see the problem with unscrupulous operators setting up a large campsite with large tents, beer kegs, big grills, etc. It's anti-LNT, besides attracting noisy groups.
Stimpy
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01/30/2018 10:24AM  
After googling that quote, I read through a few of the route suggestions on that outfitters website. All I can say is wow! I can't believe an outfitter would make such derogatory generalizations about "Twin cities dwellers" and "city folk". That guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and use a different outfitter. I'm glad to see that they're not a sponsor here.
ockycamper
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01/30/2018 10:42AM  
We used to do the "hard drive in" approach. One year we paddled through several lakes and 6 portages to get where we were going. It took the entire first day, dawn to dusk to get to our target lake. We were so tired the next day was a rest day. At the end of the trip no one wanted to paddle and do the six portages back.

We backed it down to trips with 2-3 portages. Even did trips with one portage. Now we take our groups up to Seagull and let them base camp off of Seagull. They portage just canoes and fishing gear into the other lakes for day trips. Everyone likes this best.

Best part of it is that it takes only a couple of hours of easy paddling to get to our base camps. The rest of the time is free for fishing and exploring.

Like others have said, you can take years on one lake and not really "know it".
carmike
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01/30/2018 11:03AM  
It's your trip, and so long as you follow the rules, don't worry about whether someone else is annoyed by your trip style. One isn't "better" than another...Just do what works for you.

I am continually confused by people's eager desire to argue about the superiority of single vs. double portaging, or basecamping vs. moving every day, or packing heavy vs. packing light, or hammocks vs. tents, or whatever. Preferences are just that...preferences.
inspector13
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01/30/2018 11:16AM  
Stimpy: "After googling that quote... "

Oh, I see… If the author is who I think it is, he is known for his crass and sometimes outrageous comments.

murphylakejim
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01/30/2018 11:29AM  
If I were a bigger troll I would call and ask to book a 14 day base camp trip on wood lake for spring....
01/30/2018 11:31AM  
Stimpy: "After googling that quote, I read through a few of the route suggestions on that outfitters website. All I can say is wow! I can't believe an outfitter would make such derogatory generalizations about "Twin cities dwellers" and "city folk". That guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and use a different outfitter. I'm glad to see that they're not a sponsor here. "


thanks for the googling idea. And all I can say is wow, as well! Makes me think of TOYOTA... The Outfitter You Ought To Avoid.
inspector13
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01/30/2018 11:58AM  

Ha Ha Ha Ha! Did anyone read the Q and A page?

mc2mens
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01/30/2018 12:04PM  
I have basecamped on most of my trips in the BWCA. I'm there to relax, enjoy myself and fish. Lots of fishing. Tearing down camp and setting it up again everyday would cut into my fishing time. If I was there to explore more than fish, then I might not basecamp so much. To each his/her own.
01/30/2018 01:50PM  
I've noticed over the year that there is a very strong tendency within certain BWCA users to criticize any form or method of tripping that differs from their own. These people seem to think there is one right way to do things in the BWCA whether its distance you should travel, base camp vs loop, how to portage, how to cook, how to fish, etc.

Personally I do whatever I want and whatever makes sense for me and my sensibilities, within the rules of course. I don't care what other people think I should be doing or how people think I should go about it. I'm in the BWCA for myself, not anyone else.
schweady
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01/30/2018 02:01PM  
Basecamping might mean bringing more gear and, by extension, might mean stopping earlier, which means that those first areas are more populated. But what's to say that's a bad thing? The chest-beating long distance trippers who are picking up each morning and pushing into the late hours before setting up probably have paddled past those sites in the morning anyway. Also, don't blame basecamping for wearing out sites more quickly. Large groups, maybe, but not the length of the stay by a single group. If we camp at a place for one night and move on, chances are another group is there the next day. And so on, through the paddling season. Large-size groups and how many groups are allowed at an EP may be an even more critical factor, but that's up to those in charge of permit regulations.
Grandma L
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01/30/2018 02:07PM  
At least this got us all engaged and talking, follow the rules and support the BWCA - your way!
schweady
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01/30/2018 02:20PM  
Now that I have found and read the article to gather the full context, I can appreciate the point being made about behaviors observed. Some illegal, some just the way of human nature on an entry point lake. Certainly not appropriately worded, but it did keep Wood Lake anchored in its extremely low position on my planning list.
mutz
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01/30/2018 02:52PM  
We go to fish and relax so we base camp. We get as far in as we can comfortably the first day, mainly fish the lake we are on but spend a couple of days day tripping to other lakes to fish. Not sure why someone would feel it’s ok to say we do it wrong or to presume he even knows. It’s your trip, do it your way.
Dances with Sheep
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01/30/2018 02:54PM  
murphylakejim: "If I were a bigger troll I would call and ask to book a 14 day base camp trip on wood lake for spring...."


+1... love it
01/30/2018 02:59PM  
murphylakejim: "If I were a bigger troll I would call and ask to book a 14 day base camp trip on wood lake for spring...."


Also make sure to tell him you like to sleep in and refuse to start your day before noon.
01/30/2018 03:01PM  
Stimpy: "After googling that quote, I read through a few of the route suggestions on that outfitters website. All I can say is wow! I can't believe an outfitter would make such derogatory generalizations about "Twin cities dwellers" and "city folk". That guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and use a different outfitter. I'm glad to see that they're not a sponsor here. "


I find it very interesting that he's so openly willing to disparage people from the Twin Cities and city folk in general. He's got to be smart enough to know that a good amount of his customers likely come from the Twin Cities. Apparently not many of them are reading through this full website before booking a trip. I know I'll for sure be avoiding this particular outfitter in the future.
Grandma L
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01/30/2018 03:43PM  
I note that we are all not using his name or that of his outfitting business. Interesting - he is willing to make those statements about paddlers and generalize about people from the Twin Cities and we are not putting out his name? Maybe we should.

He made very public internet statements- so why not make his public statement more public. Maybe he needs to own it. Ely Outfitter statement
01/30/2018 04:09PM  
Good point Grandma L, the comments are his own words that he put on his own website so no real reason to not call him out by name. I suspect since I'm a city dweller living in the Twin Cities he'll be happy to not get any of my future business.
PikeChase
member (50)member
  
01/30/2018 04:25PM  
Thanks for all the responses. I'm glad my hunch was confirmed and that basecamping if you want is not frowned upon. We primarily go to fish so we try to find a lake to set our first site on that has access to several other day tripping lakes. We'll continue to camp how we camp and won't feel bad if we're "lazy" and don't move further in.

To schweady's point I don't fully understand how a group staying in one spot for 7 days on a busy lake will be any different than 2-3 groups staying on that same spot for those same 7 days, but thought I might be missing something. Also, after reading more on the site it's evident they have a poor approach to say the least and have some sort of chip on their shoulder.
01/30/2018 04:35PM  
Grandma L: "I note that we are all not using his name or that of his outfitting business. Interesting - he is willing to make those statements about paddlers and generalize about people from the Twin Cities and we are not putting out his name? Maybe we should.


He made very public internet statements- so why not make his public statement more public. Maybe he needs to own it. Ely Outfitter statement "


Wow, even his description of the "Level" of his suggested Wood Lake trip is insulting and disparaging. He's not really a people person, is he?
01/30/2018 04:39PM  
Ah yes. I Googled the quote and up popped Red Rock Outfitters. That makes perfect sense. Joe has always been opinionated, outspoken and not necessarily the most tactful. That's just who he is. Ask him about canoes other than Souris River......
01/30/2018 04:41PM  
I may be wrong... but I think this thread will be short lived...
01/30/2018 05:07PM  
+1 Most posters here are choir members here singing to ourselves.
ockycamper
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01/30/2018 05:22PM  
" They did add some snarkiness into the comment, which was probably unnecessary, but maybe they think it somehow appeals to more "hardcore" trippers they are trying to attract. "

I hope the hardcore group delivers for him. Our church brings up 16-18 every fall. We would certainly not use his services as we "basecamp 2-3 hours from the outfitter".

Apparently we are "Boundary Waters Deplorables"
01/30/2018 05:45PM  
I've only done a few trips but my preferred method for a week is 3 different campsites, different lakes, 2 or 3 nights at each, sort of "mini" basecamping. To each their own. I love the days waking up, getting to fish early, cook breakfast after fishing, then go out to fish again.

I would have no illusions about telling somebody else how to trip as long as they're following the rules.
jhb8426
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01/30/2018 06:07PM  
The "Toyota" comment above was a dead give away. That said, I've always enjoyed some of his banter. The link to the fund raiser page is also part of who he is. Let's cut him some slack.
billconner
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01/30/2018 06:24PM  
This should have been like what lake is this thread. What outfitter said this? I was pretty sure who this was after first post. Funny.
Northwoodsman
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01/30/2018 08:40PM  
When I enter the BWCA I don't like to have a strict itinerary. I'll have a plan, or goals, but if I wake up and it's cold & raining, or windy I'm not going to pack up everything and move. I would likely choose base camping over moving every day. I like throwing a line in the water, taking a leisurely paddle around the lake to check out other campsites, taking a nap, gathering firewood, exploring the woods, and having a nice campfire. I'm glad a lot of people like to cover a lot of miles, it gives me more campsite options if I want to move camp across the lake in the morning.

I sure wouldn't post a comment like that if I was an outfitter. I have seen what he referenced. Back in the late 80's into the early 90's when I lived in Duluth I would often head up to the SNF or the BWCA for a quick overnight trip mostly fishing or hunting. Brule Lake was an easy lake to get to and I would see huge aluminum tankers loaded with big car-camping tents, screenhouses, lawn chairs, coolers, grills, firewood, kegs and etc. People would make many trips to get all of their gear to a campsite on Thursday or Friday and would leave by noon on Sunday, leaving a lot of garbage and broken equipment behind. This was certainly the exception. Interestingly enough, the only rangers that I have ever seen in the BWCA were on Brule or at the EP. They knew what was going on.
MrFeesh
member (39)member
  
01/30/2018 08:41PM  
My wife an I do the basecamp and fish most of the time. But I do see his point to a certain degree, a couple years ago we were headed in on Brule, it was cool, windy and raining, we waited till mid morning before setting off, hoping to get a site close to the entry and waiting for the wind to die before heading out across the big open water.

As we were headed out the waves were big enough to be splashing over the side as we were going from site to site to find them all full, finally after rounding a point and as we paddled as hard as we could, (part of the time going backward) we finally got a site to camp and wait out the wind.

Could be everyone was doing the same as us, but in a situation like that base camping close to an entry can really cause a lot of congestion.

So if we were unable to get a site around the islands close to the entry, how much trouble would we have been in if we had gone back and slept in the truck and launched the next day?
billconner
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01/31/2018 06:31AM  
"......how much trouble would we have been in if we had gone back and slept in the truck and launched the next day?"

Hard to be sure but I believe rangers have the latitude to permit a delayed entry because of weather. No idea if all do or if they would agree with your assessment of safety, but probably. A couple might get more slack than a large party of 20 something's as well. I think it's all individual judgement. And that's all based on the idea that the very few and stretched too thin rangers even were around your entry point.

01/31/2018 12:07PM  
After finding and reading his entire remark, I think he was specifically targeting the people who base-camp on the entry lake, then exit and re-enter the BWCA whenever they want, without getting new entry permits for re-entry. He states that this has never been legal and he's right. I would agree with him if that's all his statement is meant to include.
01/31/2018 02:05PM  
Lightfoot: "After finding and reading his entire remark, I think he was specifically targeting the people who base-camp on the entry lake, then exit and re-enter the BWCA whenever they want, without getting new entry permits for re-entry. He states that this has never been legal and he's right. I would agree with him if that's all his statement is meant to include."


I read it as them being 2 separate issues. He rips "Twin Cities fold or city dwellers" for driving 4 hours and then setting up camp 30 minutes into the wilderness.

Then he goes on to rip people from coming and going at will from the BWCA. For sure anyone leaving and re-entering is breaking the law and worthy of calling out but he makes it sound like everyone is doing that which I'm sure its probably not the case. If it were that constant of a problem he should like the FS know so they can set up there and pass out a few citations.
andym
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01/31/2018 08:13PM  
I had no idea that he was so opinionated! Definitely kidding about that. Read through the whole set of trip suggestions, you get the idea that he's commenting on things that have particularly happened to his clients and his gear. Personally, I still like the guy and can just chuckle at his bluntness.

And personally, what happens on entry point lakes is pretty much unimportant to my trips. Paddle through and move on. Although we might wind up trying Lake One with my 4 year old great nephew this summer. But heck, if we're camping on Lake One its hard to complain about others who are paddling 30 minutes too.

Now, if I could just figure out what he thinks of wet footing.
skillmo
member (32)member
  
01/31/2018 08:55PM  
LOL, Aren't those his boats at the end of the portage into Wood. Seems like he is trying to scare people off of Wood. I wouldn't call 5 campsites limited, and that's a pretty long portage for a revolving door.

Anyhow, I always enjoy talking to him. He's shared some really good videos on kevlar repair. And yep, he is definitely into his SRs.
01/31/2018 09:39PM  
Generally I don't care if someone wants to basecamp or move every day.

The only possible problem with basecamping is when someone does it on an entry lake that only has 1-2 sites. That can make it hard for those who encounter bad weather /high winds but still need to enter that day to find a site.
jeremylynn21
member (49)member
  
02/02/2018 09:46PM  
Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation?
montanapaddler
member (33)member
  
02/02/2018 11:46PM  
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? "


-You may not enter/re-enter at a different point or date using this
permit.
-Permit and stubs become invalid when the trip leader exits the
wilderness.

I'd say the first one implies that you can't, but the second one implies that you can. In my opinion it goes against the intent of the rules to have a part of the group exit and reenter though. I think that if you can't stay in the Wilderness and disconnect from the rest of society for the duration of your trip, you should just go stay at one of the non-Wilderness USFS campsites where you don't have any such regulations.
billconner
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02/03/2018 07:33AM  
The second point simply requires the whole group must exit with or before the leader.
Jackfish
Moderator
  
02/03/2018 10:13AM  
Joe used to have a blog that spewed the same venom as what we’ve seen him say in the article mentioned above. I had the blog bookmarked for a couple years so I could be entertained by a business man alienating the majority of his potential customers. His outspoken opinions blew me away. He finally discontinued the blog.

Personally, I couldn’t care less what he, or anyone else, says about the type of trip we like to take. And I’m not even from Minneapolis!
Tman
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02/03/2018 05:59PM  
nofish: "I've noticed over the year that there is a very strong tendency within certain BWCA users to criticize any form or method of tripping that differs from their own."


So true, but not limited to BWCA users. Seems like half the world is super judgemental anymore. Just check out backpacking sites for example. "Your Appalachian Trail through hike doesn't count unless you do it exactly like I did."

I have never base camped and can't imagine doing so until I am no longer able to cover the miles and explore every day. (Or, I convince my wife to try the BWCA. :-)

Having said that, as long as you aren't breaking any rules and don't negatively impact others, trip in whatever way makes you happy. Paddle on... :-)
Northwoodsman
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02/03/2018 07:27PM  
I have never paid any attention to sim or his comments because I don't ever recall seeing them. I do recall some chatter about his opinion on canoes. Well I found myself looking for a place to possibly source a Souris River canoe so I pretty much covered his entire site the other day. He is opinionated but I do have to admit that I was laughing a lot because his stories are entertaining.
schweady
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02/03/2018 09:04PM  
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? "

Pretty much. They can go day tripping, portage to other areas, fish all day, have lunch at another site... just about anywhere during the day. They just can't leave the wilderness and come back in, nor can they spend overnight at a different site as the leader.

When picking up the permit, each canoe is provided a small stub of paper that the occupants need to carry to prove that they are part of a group with a leader who has the full and legal permit.
billconner
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02/04/2018 06:59AM  
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? "


"wherever they please" as long as they stay in the BWCAW.
Savage Voyageur
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02/04/2018 08:46AM  
An Outfitters job is to rent equipment, outfit, help, and house thier guests. It is not to give lame generalizations of people they have never met. It’s not to judge others. Thier job is not to point out all the rules that are being broken. We have Rangers that do that job.

“Those people from the cities” that just want thier coffee, internet. Talk about painting with a wide brush! I’m kind of glad I read this because I would never recommend thier place of business to anyone.

Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there?

BigFlounder
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
  
02/04/2018 12:01PM  
Savage Voyageur: Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there?

"


That's what I was thinking, but I've never been to the BWCA so thought maybe I was missing something.

Personally I'm all about base camping and that's my plan come June when my son in law and I head into Vista Lake for our first ever trip to the BWCA. Base camp, relax and fish.
02/04/2018 12:15PM  
I guess although I agree it wasn’t a good business decision to profile Twin Cities paddlers, I couldn't, really care less...and I am one of those from the Twin Cities. Doesn’t offend me, just makes me shake my head and laugh. Ultimately he has to own what he posts—-just because I am not offended doesn’t mean others won’t.

A long time ago I used this outfitter for services. I guess I judge people how they treat me and what they charge me, and I can only say nice things along those lines.

The second part about people entering and leaving using the BWCA like a camp ground I agree with his thoughts. If it isn’t illegal, which I think it is, it definitely violates the “spirit” of the rules. I think the outfitter was complaining more about this type of camping.

I also agree with Carmike and nofish, couldn't care less if you basecamp—travel daily, single, double, quintuple portage...whatever is fun for you go for it, but don’t judge others for doing it differently as long as it is legal.

T

02/04/2018 12:34PM  
Savage Voyageur: "
Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there?

"


I mean, I guess that the tent sites can do a tiny bit of recovery in the hours that no tent is on them, compared with a base camp where the tent is there all day. But really, sites that are in such overuse that this is an issue are just dying the whole season anyway. It would be interesting for a biologist to actually study this - does a site used daily all summer do any better if it's left during the day as contrasted with one that's used all day?
Mad_Angler
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02/04/2018 09:54PM  
I also googled the quote. I should have known which outfitter it was. I have a Souris River canoe. i have got some good information from that outfitter's site. But I had to wade through a lot of crap to get to the information.

I basecamp a lot. On memorial day, I would take my aging father. Basecamping was the only way that he could enjoy the BW.

I also basecamp with my wife in the spring. I like to find a spot and get settled. Then, I can focus on fishing and relaxing.

If the goal is fishing, basecamping is generally much more effective than moving every day.

In short, this is just another example of that one outfitter being a pompous a$$
eOar
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02/05/2018 02:29PM  
Joe uses oars on Wood Lake. I think there's a rule in writing about that. =) Rowing

I stopped at his store once. He told me all about the Twin Cities people that camp on Wood and then run to Ely and have a latte and get groceries. I wonder how he knows where everyone is from?

onepaddleshort
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02/05/2018 06:52PM  
I haven’t read any of the blog in question. But it does seem to me that base camping is a bit of a threat to an outfitter’s business. The whole permit process was set up when most folks did canoe trips- not canoe camped. The idea of a certain number of permits per entry is based upon the idea that there is turnover at campsites a day’s travel inside the wilderness. The turnover is necessary in those areas so folks paddling in can find a campsite for the first night and folks paddling out can find a campsite for their last night before exiting.

If more and more canoe trippers become base campers that never go more than a day’s travel in to base camp then those sites don’t turn over, and all the sites further in become less and less occupied and used. This limits the numbers of campers that can use the area and still find a place to camp the first and last nights.

As the number of base campers increases there will come a time where you will need to reserve a site like a State park campground. And that will necessitate fewer permits, fewer campers, and less business for an outfitter.
mutz
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02/06/2018 12:36AM  
onepaddleshort: "I haven’t read any of the blog in question. But it does seem to me that base camping is a bit of a threat to an outfitter’s business. The whole permit process was set up when most folks did canoe trips- not canoe camped. The idea of a certain number of permits per entry is based upon the idea that there is turnover at campsites a day’s travel inside the wilderness. The turnover is necessary in those areas so folks paddling in can find a campsite for the first night and folks paddling out can find a campsite for their last night before exiting.

If more and more canoe trippers become base campers that never go more than a day’s travel in to base camp then those sites don’t turn over, and all the sites further in become less and less occupied and used. This limits the numbers of campers that can use the area and still find a place to camp the first and last nights.

As the number of base campers increases there will come a time where you will need to reserve a site like a State park campground. And that will necessitate fewer permits, fewer campers, and less business for an outfitter."



I disagree with your reason that the permit process was set up so there would be a turnover on campsites, the reason the permit process was set up was to limit the number of users of any particular area. Also to say that going in and having a base camp is not canoe tripping, what is it? We basecamp the reason for our trips is to fish, some go to see how far they can get or how many lakes they can get to, everybody camps. Not sure how you can say one is a canoe trip the other isn’t.
BnD
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02/08/2018 07:52AM  
TominMpls: "
Savage Voyageur: "
Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there?


"



I mean, I guess that the tent sites can do a tiny bit of recovery in the hours that no tent is on them, compared with a base camp where the tent is there all day. But really, sites that are in such overuse that this is an issue are just dying the whole season anyway. It would be interesting for a biologist to actually study this - does a site used daily all summer do any better if it's left during the day as contrasted with one that's used all day?"


No study necessary. Take a trip inside Quetico Park then on your way out stage at a site near an entry/exit. That’s what we typically do the day before our exit to get an early start home. Most we have staged at are a disaster. In a word, Yes campsite overuse significantly adversely affects campsites.
02/08/2018 08:42AM  
BnD: "No study necessary. Take a trip inside Quetico Park then on your way out stage at a site near an entry/exit. That’s what we typically do the day before our exit to get an early start home. Most we have staged at are a disaster. In a word, Yes campsite overuse significantly adversely affects campsites.
"

We all know overuse kills the sites. The question is whether two models of overuse differ - the first, which the outfitter seems to think is better, involves a site being used every day, but vacated each day during the daytime hours, to be used by a different user, and the second, which the outfitter dislikes, wherein the site is also used every day, but by the same party continuously, hence meaning it isn't vacated during the daytime hours.

My guess is that a few hours of being uninhabited doesn't really make any difference to the decline of the site - if it's used literally every day for the entire summer (as most EP-proximate sites are), it's going to be in about the same condition whether it was 90 one-day visits in 90 days, or nine ten-day visits in 90 days.
02/08/2018 09:20AM  
I've been thinking about this and I see almost zero difference in impact from base campers or people moving each day.

Those entry sites are still going to get used everyday. Image 10 groups enter an EP on a weekend (5 each day). If the first group decides to base camp on the first site Saturday morning then the next 9 groups of the weekend will need to push further. If base camping is not allowed but the first group decides to take the first site on Saturday the next 4 groups entering saturday will need to push further. When the first group moves on Sunday it opens up the site for 1 group entering on Sunday leaving the other 4 entering on Sunday to push further. So without base camping 2 groups could use the site on a weekend and the other 8 will need to push further. So in reality base camping in this scenario only impacts 1 extra group, 9 versus 8.

I'm guessing the overall impact on a site is slightly more invasive with a new group setting up each day. If a single group stays for 10 days thats only 1 tent placed, 1 food pack hung, one groups trash able to be left behind, etc. If the site sees 10 different groups on 10 different days thats 10 tents, 10 food packs, and 10 groups garbage to potentially be left behind. Either way the site is getting used every day and there is no logical reason to think 1 group of base campers is harder on a site than 10 groups moving each day.


mgraber
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02/10/2018 12:32AM  
I see no problem with base camping. I do know that there is some concern with the authorities that more and more people stay closer and closer to the entries and this has cause a few problems with all sites being locked up for an extended period, making it difficult for people just entering or ready to exit. On a Quetico note,I do have a problem with more and more people base camping on Basswood, especially North Bay, who never entered their entry lake or river, which is required by law. You are expected to head directly to that entry lake, as soon as possible, without detours. I have met many who do not. Keeps things pretty crowded, and is against the law.
billconner
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02/10/2018 06:31AM  
mgraber: "I see no problem with base camping. I do know that there is some concern with the authorities that more and more people stay closer and closer to the entries and this has cause a few problems with all sites being locked up for an extended period, making it difficult for people just entering or ready to exit. On a Quetico note,I do have a problem with more and more people base camping on Basswood, especially North Bay, who never entered their entry lake or river, which is required by law. You are expected to head directly to that entry lake, as soon as possible, without detours. I have met many who do not. Keeps things pretty crowded, and is against the law."


Not against law if they have the Agnes Basswood Basecamp permit which says "This entry can be used as a regular Agnes Lake entry OR be used to base camp on North bay, Big and Little Meriam Bays and Ranger Bay of Basswood Lake."
mgraber
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02/12/2018 08:13PM  
Bill,
You are correct as that is what I am using this year for one of our trips. Sadly, when those are gone, many are using the Sarah,Kahshahpiwi, or regular Agnes permits without actually entering those lakes.
mgraber
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02/12/2018 08:13PM  
Bill,
You are correct as that is what I am using this year for one of our trips. Sadly, when those are gone, many are using the Sarah,Kahshahpiwi, or regular Agnes permits without actually entering those lakes.
KarlBAndersen1
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02/13/2018 08:30AM  
inspector13: " Maybe the article was written by someone that needs to be less judgmental. "


Ya' think?
KarlBAndersen1
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02/13/2018 08:38AM  
"It is not a state campground with car-campers and Hells Angels wannabes on hogs and Gold Wings."

Really?
 
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