I am in the market for a new sleeping bag. I have an older Marmot Mavericks 15º bag that is a synthetic fill. I am thinking of a SeatoSummit or Big Agnes down bag. I would like to get something with a bit different of a temperature range. The Marmot was bought about 15 years ago and I know a lot has changed since then. My questions are how much of an issue is moisture with a down bag if basic precautions are taken? I am also wondering if a 30º bag would be okay for a June-August BWCA trip. I know a lot of this depends on the type of sleeper you are so it can be subjective. I also understand that bag ratings can vary.

Ross- I don't know your budget, but you can often pick up a very good bag on sale for a significant discount, so I wouldn't limit myself to SeaToSummit or Big Agnes - there are many makers of quality bags out there. There are also many quality quilts that some people prefer. There is a staggering array of quality sleeping bags to choose from today compared to earlier times - so many in fact, that it can be hard to decide! Here is one example - not the best bag made, but far from the worst, especially at that price.

Moisture is not that big of an issue with down bags if appropriate precautions are taken. I, as well as many others, keep mine (as well as my clothes) in a waterproof compression stuff sack such as the SeaToSummit eVent Dry Sack. This is inside a waterproof pack (lined with a liner). Many of the newer down bags are made with the new "dry down" which is said to absorb less moisture and dry faster. Most have shell materials that are water resistant and DWR coated, so condensation is not that big an issue either. There are various kinds of down - goose down, duck down, dry down - from 600-900 fill power. The higher the fill power, the more insulation that is provided and the less bulky it will be. Having said that, any down bag you buy is going to be considerably lighter and less bulky (and more compressible) than your current bag.

I have not tripped in June, but you should be OK with a 30-degree bag based on historical average temperatures from intellicast as well as record lows (around 30 at beginning of June), depending on how cold or warm you generally sleep and assuming you have a pad that provides adequate insulation. Many, although not all bags will have an EN (European Norm) rating, which is a more objective rating than previous systems, although it still can't account for all personal variations. It does assume the sleeper is using an adequate pad and wearing a baselayer. You can read about the system and the different ratings by googling it.

"My questions are how much of an issue is moisture with a down bag if basic precautions are taken?"

That is THE question!
In my case no issue at all. Converted to my first down bag 20 years ago, and will not go back to synthetic fill. I found large improvements in comfortable temperature ranges, weight, packed size, durability, general comfortable feel. Over that time only got my bag wet once, BigAgnes LostRanger, in a downpour. No huge problem as water did not soak it fully (outer nylon DWR worked well), but could find noticeable wet down clumps inside the bag. Slept in it as the rain came down all nite, temperatures below 50 degrees. It actually kept me warm and dried out almost fully, overnite.

Down bags are pricey though, so I'd recommend hands on research (much as possible), and that you purchase as high quality as you can even if it pushes your budget. Example for me, was the difference between 600 fill power down to 850. The high fill down is almost as much an improvement as down vs synthetic.
Do not forget to include considerations for a pad/mattress. The bag/mattress combination is more important to me than the individual parts.

Personally I'm a fan of BA sleep systems and now use Horsethief 35 degree 3 season and a PomerHoit 0 degree winter, also have available to use 20 degree Zirkel. Paired with Exped Down5s or Exped Down9m depending on temperatures.

butthead

For 3-season camping, if you only want to have one sleeping bag, I find that 20F works best. You can beef that up in the winter and use some kind of very light blanket or sheet for a heat wave when no sleeping bag is needed.

In decades of camping I’ve only gotten a sleeping bag wet once, due to pitching my tent in a depression and getting caught in heavy all-night rain. I don’t worry about moisture anymore. I have a dri down bag but didn’t even consider that feature when I bought it. As a kayak camper, I don’t even use a waterproof stuff sack because my hatches are dry.

Make sure you understand the pros and cons of the Big Agnes concept before you buy one. The Lost Ranger 15 didn’t work well for me. The temperature was off by quite a bit. Many backpackers rate it as a 30F bag, but for that temperature it’s actually quite heavy. I didn’t like having the bag pinned to the mattress on 3 sides. I found that limited my movement and felt constricting. The hood didn’t work for me in the winter. BA has many fans who don’t seem to mind those things. I would much rather have insulation all around me and complete freedom of movement.

My favorites: LL Bean rectangular down 20 and semi-rectangular down 35.

I have a Western Mountaineering Sycamore bag. I absolutely love it! They are expensive but worth it if you can afford it. I did save 20% when I bought mine. Check them out!

Thanks for the replies. I was wondering if the difference between 600FP and say 850FP was an issue and it sounds like it is. My budget is pretty open ended but as I am updating more of my gear I don't want to go to crazy. Being a bigger guy the Sea to Summit BCII bag and Big Agnes Summit Park 15 should do be well since my old Marmot still suits me but I think it shrunk in the last 15 years ;).

Just to add confusion, look into quilts. Just a few to check out,
Katabatic
Nunatak
Jacks R Better
Enlightened Equipment
UGQ Outdoor
Between quilts and bag do not be afraid of custom ordering, buid one to suit yourself!
I was and still am very interested, just have not taken the leap.

butthead

I've used down bags for 40 years and have never had a serious issue with moisture. Protect it while traveling in a good stuff sack, protect it in the tent from drips and floods, and air it out every few days in sun and wind if you can to protect from body moisture.

That said, after getting too warm over and over in my down 15ºF bags I chose a 40ºF synthetic bag for June, July, August trips. It has a little more room, and I pretty much just use it like a quilt any way. Took it on a mid May trip last year and it was not warm enough, so picked up a blanket at the surplus store last minute.

If I was doing over tomorrow, I'd definitely give a close look to the light weight quilts.

Here are a couple bags I am looking at. I am not sure about the bag attachment on the Sea to Summit. I have ordered both and will hopefully have an easier decision when they both show up. They are the Basecamp I and Big Agnes Deer Park. Both are around the 30º range.

https://www.backcountry.com/sea-to-summit-basecamp-bc-i-sleeping-bag-15-degree-down?skid=STS002M-ONECOL-REG&ti=UExQIEJyYW5kOlNlYSBUbyBTdW1taXQgU2xlZXBpbmcgQmFnczoxOjEyOjEwMDAwMDQ3OV9iYy1zbGVlcGluZy1iYWdz

https://www.backcountry.com/big-agnes-deer-park-sleeping-bag-30-degree-down?s=a

Look like pretty solid deals. I have no experience with either. A lot of people like the BA system. The STS bag has higher fill power down and is lighter and will be more compact, but is also slightly smaller. Either one should be a nice upgrade.

I really like the extra room that the Nemo "spoon" bags give. A lot of the mummy bags are too restricting for me. Worth taking a look at those as well.

My wife and I use Nemo Nocture 15F bags on Therm-A-Rest NeoAir Xlite Large mattresses. The pair weigh about 3.5 lbs and are compact. The bag compresses very well in a Sea to Summit Event Compression Sack. The Nemo Nocturne has been on sale in the outlet section at many of the online retailers this winter.

I just got my EE quilt a week ago and have been sleeping in it for the last few nights. I have always used bags and I will never go back. This is the bag for me comfortable easy to pack and light.

I will throw one more vote on the Big Agnes pile. I love my Lost Ranger (down), and if I ever have to replace it, I hope they are still making it at that time. I actually like it for the reasons that LilyPond didn't like it. I love that it's pinned down, which allows me to turn over inside the bag without getting twisted up like a hand-rolled cigarette. I do understand how some folks might find issue with that, though. I sleep warm, and it's plenty warm for me in all conditions I've slept in, but I haven't used it in teen temperatures. Most nights in the BWCA in September, I unzip it and just use it as a quilt top so I can kick my feet out to regulate.

I've never had a problem getting it wet. Rather, I've never gotten it wet, therefore have had no problem.... I pack it in a water "resistant" stuff sack. I believe it is impregnated with silicone. Then that goes in a giant Ziploc clothes storage bag along with some clothes. Then THAT goes in my roll-down dry bag. It's never outside the tent or dry bag without being in the Ziploc bag, with the exception maybe being that I will take it out of the tent to jam it into the compression sack, as long as it's not raining. Multiple thorough, but easy layers of caution to keep it dry.

Not trying to hijack buttheads thread. But wondering if I could get any advice on a plus-size sleeping bag for the portly gentleman? Doing a Boundary Water trip or two this summer but looking at Woodland Caribou for next summer.

Will be at canoe ecopia and a couple weeks and I have money to spend.

Go on amazon and search Aegis max. It is a price that is hard to beat and seems a great summer bag.

Duncun: "Not trying to hijack buttheads thread. But wondering if I could get any advice on a plus-size sleeping bag for the portly gentleman?
"

Duncan I tried the Sea to Summit BC II and BC I and they are plenty of room for me. I am 6'2" and pushing 375#. I am broad shouldered and measure 76" around my upper body including arms. The Big Agnes Park series also fit me well and measure about 2 inches smaller in circumference compared to the STS. I am returning the STS in favor of the Big Agnes Deer Park 30. The STS has straps to attach the pad which I don't care for. Also the BA has no down between you and the pad to compress and do nothing, the STS BC I & II both have down between you and the pad. It is a nice bag but I would rather have it on top of me. Also get a good pad it makes a big difference. The Q Core SLX I have works great and my hips never bottom out. Hope this helps. I like companies that acknowledge the fact that fat guys like the outdoors too. One more thing check out big camo .com lots of big and tall items there. Any questions let me know.

This bag is synthetic, but it’s a big and roomy rectangular while not being too heavy and packs down well enough. Very comfy material. It’s been discontinued so the price is about 50% off what it was a month or two ago. The North Face Homestead Twin 40 Sleeping Bag

Totally budget dependent. I suggest Big Agnes if your looking at $150-$250.

If you want the best get a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering bag. You will have them for 20 years.

Rs130754: "Here are a couple bags I am looking at.

https://www.backcountry.com/sea-to-summit-basecamp-bc-i-sleeping-bag-15-degree-down?skid=STS002M-ONECOL-REG&ti=UExQIEJyYW5kOlNlYSBUbyBTdW1taXQgU2xlZXBpbmcgQmFnczoxOjEyOjEwMDAwMDQ3OV9iYy1zbGVlcGluZy1iYWdz

Although the link says "BC1 15 degree," it's actually the BC1 33 degree. This bag looks great on paper. I love the idea of being able to zip off the top for a summer quilt. I would buy it if I thought it would actually keep me warm at 33 degrees. Unfortunately I can only find one review of it, on Amazon, and that review complains about inadequate fill and large voids where there's no insulation. There are similar reports about the BCII.

The upper comfort rating of the BC1 is 42 degrees. I tried a Big Agnes bag around that rating and didn't find it useful---good for summer only. Better to get a bag with a lower rating that can cover 3 seasons comfortably.

The BCII (15F) also looks great but it's fairly expensive.

As far as EN ratings go, I find that the EN Comfort Rating is more applicable than the EN Lower Limit Rating, although when I was younger (better circulation/no blood thinners) I probably would have been comfortable at the lower limit. YMMV

I was wondering about the limits. I did order both STS BC bags and the 33 did have some gaps in the insulation. I also like how it can turn into a quilt. The 15º bag was filled nicely but at $400 I could take the savings from the BA bag and buy a nicer insulated pad. Either way both fit my large frame very well and should serve me well for a number of years.
Only other question I have is about Nikwax products and weather or not a new bag should be treated before use. I know both are treated with DWR finish but did not know if was still reccomended.

+1 on the sea to summit even dry compression sack.

I have two Marmot down bags and recommend them without reservation. I have found that down, like wool, breathes much better than its synthetic counterpart. In other words, I find my 20 degree down bag does better when its warmer than anticipated as opposed to the synthetic bags that I use. I took my Marmot Sawtooth on a 10 day solo at the end of September 2017 - got some warm nights, cool nights, and quite a bit of rain. I also discovered some leaks in tent on the first night (yikes!). While there were some moments that the bag felt damp, I never felt cold. At some point, I punted the tent and just slept under my tarp. I had some light mist on the surface of the bag at certain points, but the down itself never got moist enough to matter.

Hope this helps.

"Only other question I have is about Nikwax products and weather or not a new bag should be treated before use."

No, use as bought till soiled. Down will last long but you need care for it. The more often you handle it wet the greater the potential for damage. Follow the manufacturers washing and storage instruction.
Down Wash Direct is the product I like to use. Have never DWR treated my S-bags.

butthead

I really worried about making the switch from syn to down at first. Now after trips to BWCA, Isle Royale and a hike in Porcupine Mountains, all of which involved stormy nights, I have a lot of confidence in down bags. My advice is to pack them in a very good dry bag. Then make sure you dont roll off your sleeping pad onto the tent floor. Don't pack or unpack them outside a shelter when it is rainy or in a heavy fog. And when you get home drape them over something in your yard on a sunny day before storing them in uncompressed in a large cloth bag. I follow those guidelines and so down has been good for me.

Down is really the way to go. Any wet sleeping bag would stink so just keep it dry. I use a 40 degree bag for June July and August with no issues.

Add a hammock and your set:) Dream or Dutch.