I wonder if the powers that be around here ever considered setting up a tripping canoe review section? Yes, I know there are reviews on Paddling.net but 99% of them are positive and are written when the boat has been used one time or is in transit from the store. A great many posts around here deal with the aspects of a certain craft and a library of sorts with reviews specifically tailored toward the tripping capabilities might bring much to the site. ??

You could set it up yourself as one of the private special interest groups......found at the bottom of the main message board page....open to everyone if you choose so.

You might get the same results as the other website. Everybody thinks the one they have is the best. Each tripping canoe has it's own advantages and disadvantages. It's the same in the biking world.

I think this is a good idea. While I agree the old Paddling.net reviews were generally positive, they were helpful to me and fun to read. This site is different in that the experience level of paddlers is more extensive and members are more likely to challenge authors who are too easy on a canoe.
So, I would be interested in seeing more focused reviews here if that option were available. JerryG

Its not like anyone has been prevented from sharing their opinions on various canoes, many with absolute certitude.

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Blatz: " Everybody thinks the one they have is the best. "

Not entirely true... Around here, some people tend to think the next canoe is going to be the best one... that's why we end up with so many. :)

Not saying that starting your own private forum is a bad idea, but if you really want people to see your post and weigh in with their comments, I would suggest starting a thread about tripping canoes in the Gear Forum. Maybe tripping canoes is enough of a specific topic that would warrant it's own forum, but just something to think about.

Jackfish: "Not saying that starting your own private forum is a bad idea, but if you really want people to see your post and weigh in with their comments, I would suggest starting a thread about tripping canoes in the Gear Forum. Maybe tripping canoes is enough of a specific topic that would warrant it's own forum, but just something to think about."

+1. And there is the whole "gear review" section here.

Wherever this landed I would be interested to see it happen on this website. That said there is a special forum just for canoes. It does not have much traffic, so I quit looking there. Most traffic seems to have migrated to “gear”

The challenge is that on large ticket items, people have a tremendous inherent need to justify their choices - which is why reviews of cars, and especially unnecessary big-ticket items like motorcycles, boats, etc., are almost always glowing, and generally worthless. Few people heavily use enough of them to have a *good* point of comparison, and they know that theirs works well for them. I find motorcycle reviews extremely, frustratingly worthless because everybody thinks theirs is the best.

If you want good information, you need to hear from people who've used a lot of different boats, but you also have to ask the right questions. You know everybody loves the one they buy, so that's not the right question. The questions that mean something are, what is it especially good for, what about it caused you to buy it, what is it not so good for, when do you choose not to use it, how long have you had it? What are the characteristics that you were looking for, and why did you think this one met those well? Even with those questions, only somebody with meaningful points of comparison will give you useful responses.

I have professional expertise in figuring out what questions to ask somebody. I also think the answer to your question is probably a Northstar :-P

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muddyfeet: "

Blatz: " Everybody thinks the one they have is the best. "

Not entirely true... Around here, some people tend to think the next canoe is going to be the best one... that's why we end up with so many. :) "

You just described ME (LOL)!

I think there is some validity to the "canoe I have is the best" mentality. Mainly because while canoe A is best for Mr Bill... Oooooo! Canoe B is the best choice for Mr Rogers.
We come in all shapes and sizes as do canoes. Well Mr Bill can get pretty flat! While narrowing down boats to a general few or even a couple, I'd always suggest test paddling... I'd strongly suggest for canoe tripping say you narrowed it down to two boats. Rent both and find whatever you need for people to go with and try them out in the real world... BWCA! But yes, I agree people here tend to be pretty honest about the + and -es.
Just like to add... I paddled the Wenonah Encounter for years. I was told it was a great boat having an eighty pound pup with me. It served me well. But maybe that prism would have been better. Maybe that Placid rapid fire would have been the ticket...
Lots of options out there... So not a bad idea...

When rating a canoe, you don't have to say which is the best or worst. You can just say what you like or dislike about the boat you are paddling or where it performs well or doesn't. Interested parties can know what to look for then in that particular boat. People always complain about the pinched front ends on Mn2's, but my skinny butted family has always done fine in our Mn2. Something to watch for but not a deal breaker for everyone.

I would also add that you need to know what kind of tripping people use the canoe for. The reason I add this is that my son and I like to move fast and far, fish a lot and rarely move everyday once we’re in our fishing area so we need a canoe that has reasonable stability lightly loaded as well as heavily loaded, has reasonable bow paddler foot room, reasonable speed, etc.....If we moved everyday and did little fishing my canoe choice would be entirely different.

There are so many criteria to which everyone rates differently. What would make a good tripping canoe for me would downright annoy another.
Also the how many canoes have you owned and how many miles/ trips (base camp and traveling are so different of a trip) have you done in those hulls?

nooneuno: "...there are reviews on Paddling.net but 99% of them are positive and are written when the boat has been used one time..."

My most memorable review on Paddling.net was a guy reviewing a Ranger Otter (nice composite made in N.H.). He gave it one or no stars because when he paddled it solo (from the rear seat) it dumped him.

If you do a search by manufacturer / model name, I feel like a great deal of info is available on most. From what I've seen, I don't think most people are partial to their specific one. There are a few BRAND bigots out there for sure. I know that if I bought brand new canoes, I would most likely not have all the same boats that I do now.....the everlasting pursuit for personal paddling preference!

It seems these reviews would have to be in a different format than the typical 'thread' that this site utilizes. A specific section with selections for manufacturer and model would have to be permanent to store comments on each hull (like paddling.net). Otherwise, a thread for a specific model would get buried, and a new one would start every so often. Then you are back to using the search function, just as you can do now.

kona: "That said there is a special forum just for canoes."

There is? It's not listed on the messageboard with the other forums. This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause.

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muddyfeet: "

Blatz: " Everybody thinks the one they have is the best. "

Not entirely true... Around here, some people tend to think the next canoe is going to be the best one... that's why we end up with so many. :) "

+1 - So true!

I’ve paddled many canoes but never a souris river canoe, because of that I don’t think my opinion means much.

mschi772: " This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause."

This made me LOL. There was an effort by Adam and several others in 2016 (I think?) to make updates to the site, however it was going to be a serious financial undertaking. There was a palpable backlash from part of the community here, causing several long time members to cease coming here and in a few instances people went so far as to delete content they added wherever they could.

I agree that the board's navigational structure leaves some to be desired, however there were some changes that were made that made it much better than before.

The site appears to be built using ColdFusion... I can't even imagine what it would take to migrate to a different CMS, and then, which one?

I just wish the read/unread indicators would work more reliably for me.

That being said, my favorite canoe is the last one I was in that didn't end up with me taking a swim. Granted, my experience is only with various aluminum canoes, a kevlar spirit, my tuf weave spirit, and hopefully eventually my garage sale NorthStar. Oh yeah, there was also the solo Old Town Pack canoe a member lent me for the weekend a couple years ago for a Boy Scout thing....

mschi772: "

kona: "That said there is a special forum just for canoes."

There is? It's not listed on the messageboard with the other forums. This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause."

Yes, you have to join it specifically. Scroll down to the bottom on the main forum page where it says "View Other Public Special Interet Groups and Private Groups Open for Application" You'll find it there...

Private Group Forum: Canoe Forum

jhb8426: "

mschi772: "

kona: "That said there is a special forum just for canoes."

There is? It's not listed on the messageboard with the other forums. This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause."

Yes, you have to join it specifically. Scroll down to the bottom on the main forum page where it says "View Other Public Special Interet Groups and Private Groups Open for Application" You'll find it there...

Private Group Forum: Canoe Forum "

That's silly. No wonder why so few people use it then.

mschi772: "

kona: "That said there is a special forum just for canoes."

There is? It's not listed on the messageboard with the other forums. This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause."

Gosh, this is a pretty user friendly site IMHO. With very slow rural internet speeds, so many websites are so full of crap that they are rendered almost unusable. Here, you can "taylor" your message board to what YOU want to read. So unless I "join" some of those "private" forums, they don't take up time loading to my page every time. I think the owner and moderators do a fine job with this site and I find the navigation easy.

ozarkpaddler: "

mschi772: "

kona: "That said there is a special forum just for canoes."

There is? It's not listed on the messageboard with the other forums. This site is an outdated navigation nightmare that could use a good redesign. Daunting task, but if a special effort was made to overhauling bwca.com, I'd make a special donation to that cause."

Gosh, this is a pretty user friendly site IMHO. With very slow rural internet speeds, so many websites are so full of crap that they are rendered almost unusable. Here, you can "taylor" your message board to what YOU want to read. So unless I "join" some of those "private" forums, they don't take up time loading to my page every time. I think the owner and moderators do a fine job with this site and I find the navigation easy."

+1 It is by no means state of the art, but more than adequate... and the members and administrators are AMAZING :)

I think this site works great. What's difficult about it?

Blatz: "I think this site works great. What's difficult about it?"

Below will look like a whole lot of complaining...because it is. It does not at all mean that I'm "hating" on BWCA.com. I didn't write this to antagonize or offend anyone. I wrote it as an answer to a question I was asked and because I LIKE BWCA.com so much that I'd like to see it improve.

Gear reviews are in off in their own section which is undertrafficed because most people come for the messageboard and stay on the messageboard. Adding new gear to the review section requires Category and SKU entries (what?). Even if it does receive a lot of traffic, the gear review section is next to useless because there are so many products that have zero reviews and many more that only have a couple reviews.

There are business reviews, too, but anyone who doesn't know that could be forgiven because the only way I see to find them is to go to the Gear section (businesses are gear?) then notice the little "Businesses" sub-tab on the right. Then you'll find lots of empty categories with no businesses listed and some businesses listed in others with little to no pictures or maps, and no reviews.

Maps are good, but why not have the option to START with the interactive map of the BW instead of just a list of entry points? Many people unfamiliar with the BW won't know what any of the EP or Lake names mean and want to get started with information that can help them narrow-down their choices instead of looking at an unfamiliar list and picking a name from a hat to get started.

The "Route Guide" section is yet another text-heavy databasey list of entry points with lots of trip reports--something that IS actually kinda popularly utilized but hidden deep past Maps & Entry Points-->Route Guide-->EP XX. I guess they're also found in the Trip Reports forum on the messageboard, but there is zero organization to them there. There's no way for a new user to know that trip reports exist without stumbling upon them while exploring something else. And as the "Route Guide" section goes, there are virtually no actually routes published.

The Books section is completely empty. Why is it even there? Is it not empty, and I'm just experiencing a bug?

The Photo Gallery link (at the top of the page; the "Photo Gallery" link at the bottom of the page is different) doesn't actually take you to a photo gallery, but shows you a bunch of links for managing your own user photos which really should just be something dealt with from "Your Account" like all the rest of our personal account information and settings (and it redundantly IS there already) and then one link that takes you to an actual gallery of BWCA.com photos.

Special forums in addition to the normal ones just serve to spread useful information out and make it less likely to be found. I mean, we have a "Winter Camping & Activities" forum, and when I look at the special forum list, one of the first ones is "Winter Camping." Really? There is a "Gear Forum" but there area also separate edged tools and canoe forums. This kind of thing just makes these forums compete with each other instead of organizing and centralizing information for readers to find.

When I say that this site is a navigational nightmare, I don't mean that it is slow or buggy. Yeah, it *operates* smoothly, but it lacks intuitive organization and has too many links that lead to empty content. It also requires too many clicks for newcomers (or anyone, really) to reach some of what would be some of the most useful stuff. So little is just one click away from the front page, and it's not uncommon for something to be three or four clicks away (basic information about the BWCA, for example, is 3 clicks away from the home page) though one link-list after the other. So many pages are verbose text-fests without any visuals.

Does it WORK? Sure, it works, and while I'm not educated in web design, I'm an experienced web-user, and my experience tells me that there must be a better way to design this site for a better user experience.

mschi772-Let me know when your site is up and running. I will try to get the 15,000 or so who use this site to visit yours.

But we are now off topic. I do not agree with the "my solo is the best," nor do I abide by the "rent one before you buy" mentality.

On the first point, I owned and got rid of 3 pretty popular solos for various reasons. On the second point, if you live in MN, your only rental options are Wenonah or Bell/Northstar products, and there are many other options out there.

On that note, I wish there were dealers and outfitters in MN who thought outside the Wenonah/Northstar box. That is not to say those builders do not offer quality products, but it would be nice to size them up against something else.

All legitimate points in regards to the sites usability. Once our current venture funding round closes....

Frenchy19: "On that note, I wish there were dealers and outfitters in MN who thought outside the Wenonah/Northstar box. That is not to say those builders do not offer quality products, but it would be nice to size them up against something else."

Hmmm, are their financial incentives to the brand exclusivity? Is it just easier for the outfitter to have fewer models to manage and care for? There must be some incentive for it to be the way it is, right? I ask because I wonder just how strong the incentive is because it would be a cool for an outfitter to try to carve out a niche as the "enthusiast's outfitter" where they'd have a very diverse fleet for the very reason you're saying--to be able to try all kinds of different models. I'm guessing there's some cost that would have to be passed on to us, and would most people really be OK with even a slight premium like that in the long run?

Has anyone ever tried setting something up where trusted members can easily advertise and swap/share their canoes for the purpose of letting their peers try-out different canoes? I mean, I'd be generally alright with lending my canoe to a trusted BWCA member assuming I'm not using it at the time, they give me a comparable one of theirs to use if I need one at the time, and they'd be responsible for any damage incurred while it's in their hands.

I think part of the issue with canoe reviews is that it takes quite a bit of experience with many canoes in order to review them well. I mean, I certainly don't think I'd be able to provide a really good review of my Haida as I only have a few other canoes I can compare it to. I can say what I like and don't like, but I can't really compare/contrast against alternatives.

---

It's well-constructed. I do like the boot-lace seats quite a lot. The ash carrying handles are well-placed and very comfortable. While the contoured yoke is nicer on its own than others, its shape makes padding it more difficult. It has tremendous capacity, and is stupidly stable; you'd pretty much have to jump out in order to fall out. It's really quite fast, too. I haven't tried paddling it solo yet, but I'm looking forward to trying. I'm going to try reversing from the bow seat, and I also want to try their kneeling thwart in it since it's an asymmetrical hull, and I'm guessing paddling from the thwart will be better. When it's empty, it is a little sketchier, but I honestly expected it to be much worse than it really is when empty.

I'm not a big fan of keels, so the shoe keel is a bummer, but because of its length and flatness, I think the keel in conjunction with the ribs might just be a little necessary to maintain rigidity. If that is the case, I'd take a rounder bottom and some rocker (I'd prefer a little rocker anyway) in order to be rid of the keel because unless you really get it on its side, it certainly handles like the 17' freighter it is. It's probably more likely that it's excellent at being what it means to be and a different canoe would suit me more appropriately, but this is the best deal w/in my means/budget at the time, and overall I'm very happy with it.

What have I paddled previously? Various aluminum canoes, a number of old, cheap fiberglass canoes (Great Canadian and Corecraft are the only two I've ever known the make of), a Wenonah tandem of some kind way back, and a royalex tandem (Old Town maybe, but it might have been someone else).

mschi772: "

Frenchy19: "On that note, I wish there were dealers and outfitters in MN who thought outside the Wenonah/Northstar box. That is not to say those builders do not offer quality products, but it would be nice to size them up against something else."

Hmmm, are their financial incentives to the brand exclusivity? Is it just easier for the outfitter to have fewer models to manage and care for? There must be some incentive for it to be the way it is, right? I ask because I wonder just how strong the incentive is because it would be a cool for an outfitter to try to carve out a niche as the "enthusiast's outfitter" where they'd have a very diverse fleet for the very reason you're saying--to be able to try all kinds of different models. I'm guessing there's some cost that would have to be passed on to us, and would most people really be OK with even a slight premium like that in the long run?
Has anyone ever tried setting something up where trusted members can easily advertise and swap/share their canoes for the purpose of letting their peers try-out different canoes? I mean, I'd be generally alright with lending my canoe to a trusted BWCA member assuming I'm not using it at the time, they give me a comparable one of theirs to use if I need one at the time, and they'd be responsible for any damage incurred while it's in their hands.
I think part of the issue with canoe reviews is that it takes quite a bit of experience with many canoes in order to review them well. I mean, I certainly don't think I'd be able to provide a really good review of my Haida as I only have a few other canoes I can compare it to. I can say what I like and don't like, but I can't really compare/contrast against alternatives.
---
It's well-constructed. I do like the boot-lace seats quite a lot. The ash carrying handles are well-placed and very comfortable. While the contoured yoke is nicer on its own than others, its shape makes padding it more difficult. It has tremendous capacity, and is stupidly stable; you'd pretty much have to jump out in order to fall out. It's really quite fast, too. I haven't tried paddling it solo yet, but I'm looking forward to trying. I'm going to try reversing from the bow seat, and I also want to try their kneeling thwart in it since it's an asymmetrical hull, and I'm guessing paddling from the thwart will be better. When it's empty, it is a little sketchier, but I honestly expected it to be much worse than it really is when empty.
I'm not a big fan of keels, so the shoe keel is a bummer, but because of its length and flatness, I think the keel in conjunction with the ribs might just be a little necessary to maintain rigidity. If that is the case, I'd take a rounder bottom and some rocker (I'd prefer a little rocker anyway) in order to be rid of the keel because unless you really get it on its side, it certainly handles like the 17' freighter it is. It's probably more likely that it's excellent at being what it means to be and a different canoe would suit me more appropriately, but this is the best deal w/in my means/budget at the time, and overall I'm very happy with it.
What have I paddled previously? Various aluminum canoes, a number of old, cheap fiberglass canoes (Great Canadian and Corecraft are the only two I've ever known the make of), a Wenonah tandem of some kind way back, and a royalex tandem (Old Town maybe, but it might have been someone else)."

"I think part of the issue with canoe reviews is that it takes quite a bit of experience with many canoes in order to review them well."

Well, not necessarily. Take your Novacraft Haida review. You may not have paddled dozens of hulls, but you took the time to make accurate, thoughtful, pointed, assessments. "...stupidly stable; you'd pretty much have to jump out in order to fall out." I can VISUALIZE that! I'm very impressed with your review. Most reviews, even those by experienced paddlers, are not as thoughtful and often contain "Brand" or "Designer" bias. I admit that any hull designed by David Yost gets the benefit of the doubt if I'm reviewing it. The key to weeding out good reviews from the flotsam is to look how much description and thought is placed in the review. GOOD JOB!

"Hmmm, are their financial incentives to the brand exclusivity?"

I would assume there still are? The two outfitters I know well have told me in the past that they get a "Volume" discount. Couple that with the fact that they have to make 12 months salary in 5 months means they have to watch that bottom dollar. It's probably not cost effective to offer more than a couple brands? And with shipping costs, the two MN companies are naturally going to be be more affordable per hull.

"....it would be a cool for an outfitter to try to carve out a niche as the "enthusiast's outfitter" where they'd have a very diverse fleet for the very reason you're saying--to be able to try all kinds of different models."

I concur. Probably won't happen, but if I get a winning lotto ticket, I think I'd LOVE to do that? Canoe slut that I am, paddling a different boat every day.....SOUNDS LIKE HEAVEN?

Has anyone ever tried setting something up where trusted members can easily advertise and swap/share their canoes for the purpose of letting their peers try-out different canoes?

Well, we sorta have a group and try each other's boats. We have our Ozark Rendezvous every Spring and Fall. Been doing it since 2001. Most paddlers allow each other to try out their boats. Myself and others have loaned out boats for a day or two. A friend from KY loaned one to someone in WI that never returned, and I did so to one that was absconded to MN. But those are another story and aberrant to the group. I've also heard of another group that puts on the "Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous." Never been to it, but I'd love to one day. Problem is, there are few tripping canoes in the mix at both gatherings. I'll put a link or two up, anyway. Take care!


Ozark Rendezvous Thread
Spring Ozark Rendezvous Pics
Fall Ozark Rendezvous pics
Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous