I have a friend who is an experienced Quetico visitor. He has probably made 30 trips to Kawnipi.

He has always used aluminum canoes. Last trip, he tried a Kevlar canoe. He was hit by a strong crosswind and could not control his canoe. He is convinced that it was caused by the lack of a rudder or keel under the Kevlar canoe.

What do you think? Is this one weakness of Kevlar canoes?

(I have a SR Quetico 18.5. I have never lost control and suspect that canoe design and shape can make tracking better or worse. I suspect that my SR design is good and that is why I don't have tracking issues)

It's probably more a matter of what he is used to. Personally, I'd hate to find myself broadside in a canoe with a keel against large waves, or in any situation where I needed to change direction quickly.

The keel on an aluminum canoe is needed because that is what holds the two halves together, and the bottom of the canoe is flat. A well designed Kevlar canoe does not need a keel because it is designed into the hull to track straight.

Savage Voyageur: "The keel on an aluminum canoe is needed because that is what holds the two halves together, and the bottom of the canoe is flat. A well designed Kevlar canoe does not need a keel because it is designed into the hull to track straight."

Yup the keel in an aluminum canoe is for structure and does very little if anything for tracking.

He's blaming his poor paddling control on the lack of a keel.

Gotta blame it on something!

butthead

butthead: "He's blaming his poor paddling control on the lack of a keel.

Gotta blame it on something!

butthead"

Don’t know that I would be so blunt, however, it’s hard to believe the riveted seam adds much if any tracking stability. I would believe the lack of rocker vs. a composite canoe with rocker could cause the composite canoe to require more corrective strokes in a side wind or worse quartering wind. So many variables including loading, trim, etc...it’s hard to point at a riveted seam as the singular cause of him being able to track an aluminum canoe better than composite. That said, people believe what they want to believe. Answer......only paddle with a light tail wind.

A keel is not about helping a canoe track, but about helping it from drifting in a crosswind and as protection for the hull. Wood canvas canoes were built with keels long before aluminum canoes came along.

I love these topics.

Keels are for structural soundness regardless if it was an wood/canvas or aluminum canoe. It was a necessary evil because of the materials used. They weren't added for handling purposes.

Blatz: "Keels are for structural soundness regardless if it was an wood/canvas or aluminum canoe. It was a necessary evil because of the materials used. They weren't added for handling purposes."

A keel was an option on a wood canvas canoe- like sponsons, half ribs, or a floor rack. Some wood canvas canoes designed for sailing had three keels. Many restorers of wood canvas canoes choose to leave the keel off as it makes for that many less places for the water to leak through the canvas. One can argue if they were of any benefit (like sponsons), but not that they were for structural soundness.

Ask Cliff Jacobson......not a lover of keels! They are great rock magnets though.

dr bob

Lots of old wood canvas canoes were water magnets. Over the course of a day they would add a couple of pounds. And they never were light to start with.

The keel allowed them to be dragged on shore without tearing the canvas.

Got nothing to do with tracking.. That is a function of block coefficient.

Hey... I never thought of that for a purpose...
dr bob

butthead: "He's blaming his poor paddling control on the lack of a keel."

Exactly! And never paddle any canoe parallel to a crosswind. If you're not quartering into it, prepare to dump. I'm talking about Wind....not a light breeze.

Keel?! We don't need no stinkin' keel!

Just thought the OP was funny, as debating his friends experience with virtually everyone else who has paddled in less than calm conditions. How many or you folks miss a keel or feel it is needed? So far no one has said so!

butthead

Whether it's needed seems like a personal choice. Whether it really has any of the stabilizing or tracking function seems, I'm not sure. It seems some kayaks and even a few canoes have rudders. Not needed imho but pretty sure they have an effect. Checking sizes, it seems the area of a keel on an aluminum canoe is similar or greater than that of a rudder.

Just interesting.

Rudders have a different function.. Its not tracking but rather broach avoidance in currents on the ocean or stern quartering waves.

I can keep my Mad River Monarch going straight in flatwater but when you add a tidal current or strong tailwinds the rudder is very useful. As happens on the ocean or Lake Superior.

I've always missed my keel...

Hahahaha, butthead... Yeah, I agree, needed something to blame it on. They did back then promote the keel for tracking. But I've never seen any significant difference. Paddled a few boats over the years... Aluminum canoes are battle ships!

KarlBAndersen1: "I love these topics."

My thought exactly.

Depends on what you want out of the canoe. For what I want out of a canoe an aluminum canoe would be very low on my list.

yellowcanoe: "Rudders have a different function.. Its not tracking but rather broach avoidance in currents on the ocean or stern quartering waves.

I can keep my Mad River Monarch going straight in flatwater but when you add a tidal current or strong tailwinds the rudder is very useful. As happens on the ocean or Lake Superior."

I'm not disagreeing but trying to understand why a keel at an inch x 15 feet or so has no effect and a rudder of similar or less area does.

I believe it has to do with it's distance from the center of rotation of the canoe, further awy the greater the effect. like the length of a lever

I think paddling a big, wide and heavy aluminum canoe is very different from paddling a kevlar. Many of us grew up using aluminum and switched to kevlar for obvious reasons.
However, with that said I think it is simply making the adjustment to the kevlar that makes the difference, not the keel. Sort of like paddling a solo kevlar vs a tandem kevlar. They handle differently but both perform well once you get the differences figured out. I remember the first time I paddled a solo. I thought it was a toy boat that could not be controlled. Needless to say my view has changed.

One other thought is a few kevlar canoes have a heck of a lot of freeboard. My brother's Souris River is a good example. It rides like the Queen Mary in rough water but does not far well at all if it is exposed to a crosswind. My Mn2 handles crosswinds much better since the freeboard is significantly less.
So perhaps your pal has a point but it has nothing to do with the keel.

Of course the keel affects tracking, the only question is by how much, under what conditions.

For whatever reason, the Q18.5 tracking in a crosswind, loaded with two 190-lb people and two full SealLine Boundary Waters packs, absolutely sucked compared to the tracking of the big Lowe Line aluminum loaded in the same way, paddled the same way by the same two people.

Not even close. Two very strong paddlers also with whitewater qualification.

Just sayin’.

Mad_Angler
He has always used aluminum canoes. Last trip, he tried a Kevlar canoe. He was hit by a strong crosswind and could not control his canoe. He is convinced that it was caused by the lack of a rudder or keel under the Kevlar canoe.

What do you think? Is this one weakness of Kevlar canoes?

It's not as easy as that. Wind effects on canoes are based on a variety of characteristics, including freeboard, draft, rocker/keel line, hull cross section (rounded vs flat), direction of wind, trim, paddling ability, paddling style (e.g. J stroke vs sit and switch). It's not Kevlar vs aluminum with a keel. If you have identical designs, both will perform identically (though the Kevlar will be lighter). A manufacturer producing Kevlar boats will likely have put considerably more effort in designing the boat with particular handling qualities, as the boats are more expensive and so normally are catered to more discerning paddlers, and that Kevlar can be formed to specifications far broader than aluminum.

In general, Kevlar/composite boats are designed with more rounded bottoms and finer lines than the typical flat-bottomed aluminum canoe with their blunt ends, making them more efficient ("faster") designs at the sacrifice of maneuverability. These designs respond differently to winds than do aluminum boats. If you're not aware of that, then you'll have problems correcting. Trim is extremely important in countering wind effects--with a beam wind, a light bow will result in the bow tracking downwind; a heavy bow will allow the stern to move downwind, thus the boat will tend into the wind. With flatter bottomed boats, this tendency is exacerbated, as there is less resistance to the boat being blown around--the keel on the aluminum boat may help, but it's still a basically flat-bottomed boat with a shallow draft.

Keels also concentrate wear on small areas--I've seen many aluminum canoes with holes in their keels due to wear. Also, keels catch on rocks. Grumman used to offer smaller "shoe keels" on boats for whitewater use--the keels were probably half the depth of normal keels to help lessen their tendency to catch on rocks.

So there are a lot of things going on, and it's not aluminum w/keel vs Kevlar. It all depends on the boat design, wind conditions, and paddler (duh!).

What do you think? Is this one weakness of Kevlar canoes?

I've never missed it on my canoe, nor noticed tracking issues.

IMHO, the weakness of a Kevlar canoe is that they sure don't put up with the abuse a good aluminum canoe can handle.

On the other hand, my aging spine and shoulders can't put up with the abuse an aluminum canoe provides on portages. ;)

DanCooke: "Depends on what you want out of the canoe. For what I want out of a canoe an aluminum canoe would be very low on my list."

Strongly agree! And for what I want out of a canoe, my Alumacraft works just fine.