Any advice in dealing with a first-timer who isn't great at listening to others? My brother wants to come with us on our trip this year and we are only 30 days away from our permit date. He doesn't like the idea of having a trip leader or people with more experience being an authority over him so I'd like to offer him the resources to educate himself. That way we shouldn't need to tell him what to do as much and it aligns with his personality more.

What resources would you suggest, other than this forum, to give him an idea of what to expect without glamorizing it too much? He's already decided he wants to go and we are going to Little Sag via Brant and exiting at Missing Link, so it won't be an easy route. Are there videos or guides that talk about what is going to be expected of him and how much of a challenge it can be?

Sounds like he might be a challenging trip partner. Only a foolish man would reject the advice of those more experienced.

A simple google search will lead him to all the information he'd ever care to read on how to travel in the BWCA. He just needs to take it upon himself to look for it.

Hopefully when he actually gets there he'll fall into sync with the group and you won't have to be telling him what to do. If not it could be a long trip for everyone.

I know if a newbie were to join me on a trip and he wasn't working as part of the team he'd start finding bigger and bigger rocks hidden at the bottom of his pack by the end of the trip.

nofish: "Sounds like he might be a challenging trip partner. Only a foolish man would reject the advice of those more experienced.

I know if a newbie were to join me on a trip and he wasn't working as part of the team he'd start finding bigger and bigger rocks hidden at the bottom of his pack by the end of the trip. "

LOL. Yeah my little brother can be a pain to deal with. He likes to think he is an expert on every subject that he knows anything about. When I told him that my buddy would be the one in charge since he has the most experience, he said that he does not like the idea of having anyone in charge of him. And the one that happened last night was that since his first choice of a canoe partner declined, he wants to talk to our alternative before he even agrees to go...

He can be quite frustrating, but he is my brother so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this time. If he does cause trouble or act like a little turd, then he simply will not be invited to come with again. Rocks might just need to find their way into his pack too. It could also be a lot of fun to take down the tent while he is still sleeping if he is not getting up fast enough.

Personally, my free time is precious and I would never trip with anyone that brought along your brother's attitude, as it can make for a miserable trip for everyone and defeats the purpose of going in the first place. However, as you are committed to make this happen I am looking forward to hearing how it goes for you. PLEASE post a trip report upon your return!
I see that you have a few trips under your belt. As an option, perhaps just the two of you go on a trip together? That might allow him to gain some perspective and eliminate potential drama......

unshavenman: "Personally, my free time is precious and I would never trip with anyone that brought along your brother's attitude, as it can make for a miserable trip for everyone and defeats the purpose of going in the first place. However, as you are committed to make this happen I am looking forward to hearing how it goes for you. PLEASE post a trip report upon your return!"

I think this trip will be worth a report anyways, but yeah, I'll try to get one up in a timely manner.

Just wanted to clarify as well that this is my little brother. We give him crap all the time and some of this is exaggerated. I wouldn't let him come with if he really could ruin the trip. I just get a little pessimistic about things as we get ready for the trip as a way to think through and find solutions for all potential problems. With little brother, I think the best solution is for him to figure out for himself why we do things a certain way then we shouldn't need to boss him around. If no one bosses him around then he is typically happy. He's very intelligent, just doesn't like anyone having authority over him.

Plus, I kind of owe him. He flew me out to LA for a long weekend last summer so I could help him pack up and move back to Minnesota. Yeah I worked my butt off for him but I had never been to California, or Las Vegas where I caught a flight home (only a few hours until the flight but still), so it was a nice experience for me.

Would he read portions of Daniel Pauly's book, "Exploring the Boundary Waters"? The second chapter, "Planning Your Trip," is full of advice about what to expect. The detailed descriptions about the lakes and portages on your route might be helpful.

Sounds like he might struggle with feelings of inferiority, hence the need to be always right and not be under the direction of another. Smart move on your part not to be the group leader. Try to be patient.

Interesting. It seems to me where you went wrong was anointing your friend as the guy that's "in charge." I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about a vacation featuring a "boss" and a bunch of underlings myself - that's kind of what we're going up there to escape from, isn't it?

I understand each trip does need a designated "trip leader", and newbies should be prepared to defer certain decisions to those with more experience/knowledge. But that can all take place without establishing a hierarchy, so to speak.

Hopefully you guys know his personality and what he will and won't respond to. I can tell that if your trip leader takes the approach of he's in charge and what he says goes and your brother better listen, or else....it won't go well. There are other ways to get people to do what you want them to - each person responds group dynamics differently and are motivated by different things...a good "leader" will have everybody on board with most decisions and all thinking it was their idea in the first place!

Ausable: "Sounds like he might struggle with feelings of inferiority, hence the need to be always right and not be under the direction of another. Smart move on your part not to be the group leader. "

Funny you say that. My buddy is not the take charge type, but I somewhat am, so I typically do all the planning and play more of the role of the leader. Saying that my buddy is the leader was a very intentional decision. This way I can blame decisions on my buddy so brotherly rivalry doesn't get in the way.

I can get along with just about anyone, but for a BW trip, personality is key. As others have said, I'm not driving 10 hours and using vacation time to deal with ego.

But, the book mentioned is good. Hopefully he asks for help instead of flipping the canoe, breaking a stove, or other consequences.

treehorn: "Interesting. It seems to me where you went wrong was anointing your friend as the guy that's "in charge." I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about a vacation featuring a "boss" and a bunch of underlings myself - that's kind of what we're going up there to escape from, isn't it?

Hopefully you guys know his personality and what he will and won't respond to. I can tell that if your trip leader takes the approach of he's in charge and what he says goes and your brother better listen, or else....it won't go well."

The plan is to say that there is a boss ahead of time, but not to ever really start telling people what to do. If you don't pitch in or we aren't moving when we need to be then my buddy is the type to step in and assign jobs. We shouldn't ever need him to step in but if we do then at least he's been warned that it might happen and it should be pretty plain to see the reasoning and just go with it. The less you use authority, the more it means, especially when what's being told is common sense and the only thing getting in the way is laziness or exhaustion.

My two cents is that you should spend half of your education effort on educating the person "in charge." The manner of delivery of any message is a big part of it being accepted.

unshavenman: "I see that you have a few trips under your belt. As an option, perhaps just the two of you go on a trip together? That might allow him to gain some perspective and eliminate potential drama......"

+1

Picking it up from Daniel Pauly or anyone on the web, will be great . . . as long as you do it exactly the same way as Pauly or me or whomever . . .

I would just write him up a short note -

"I know you'll want to know how we do things and why before the trip to fit in seamlessly, so here is what we all do . . .

It might help to refer to the leader as the “Trip Coordinator” instead of the leader. That way other people feel free to suggest things they believe are a good idea versus a challenge to authority.
I have found in most cases you just have to allow certain personalitys to be themselves and if they are a problem never invite them again or bring some good weed along and encourage them to use it.

+1 on “here is what we all do”. If he wants to go on a group trip, he needs to be able to accept how the group operates.

I think a pre-trip discussion to help set expectations is in order. As he’s out of state, I suggest a friendly video chat with the group, with beer and popcorn on hand at each end. What are his expectations of the group? What are the group’s expectations of him? He needs to know what a typical day will look like. Are you moving every day? He needs to know. Do you always get up at 6:00, and fish until after dark? He needs to know.

If he wants to do his own thing, how much flexibility does your group have for that? Can he sleep while everyone else gets up? Can he declare a layover day or a no-fishing day? Can he fish when everyone else wants to stay in camp? Can he stay in camp while everyone else fishes? Can he take a canoe and explore while everyone else fishes? Can he choose his own chores? Can he decide he’s not doing chores today? These are things you may need to discuss with your group.

He may not like it, but the group has to work as a team most of the time. How does your group make decisions and settle disagreements? You all should discuss this with him. Every group member needs to be willing to cooperate, or it will be an unpleasant week.

A1t2o, you really care for your brother and it is obvious. Shortcut: Encourage him to read this thread--with you.

I do not think I would take any newbie on a trip that wasn’t responsive or eager to Learn from the knowledge and suggestions that experienced BWCA trippers give them. I think it would ruin not only his trip, but everybody else that may be envolved.

Ask him to watch this Video

Well, that was a very nice video. I feel rested after watching it.

I have a little different perspective on this. I lost a brother earlier this year and never had the chance to wilderness trip with him. We would have had a great time together, but, for various life reasons, it never happened. Embrace the opportunity to spend time with him.

His presence is going to upset the roles you and your usual partner have carved out through years of tripping. Give him a role to be in charge of? People are less likely to be belligerent when they have some knowledge of why things are done the way they are instead of just being told to do something a certain way because. I would try to get him involved in learning some new skills. Cooking, fire building, food pack hanging, route finding, tarp hanging. Ask him what he wants to get from the trip?

Here are some suggestions for resources:

Michael Furtman's book: "Canoe Country Camping: Wilderness Skills for the Boundary Waters and Quetico".

There are the Cliff Jacobson YouTube video series.

There are the BWCACast YouTube videos. They are more of a travelogue than a howto. But there are a couple howto's in there.

There are vid's on how to lift a canoe for a portage. How to hang a bear bag. How to build a fire when its been raining. Pick a skill. Or just search for "BWCA Safety" in YouTube.

You don't mention his canoeing experience. How about a canoe rental at a local lake and some time with a paddle in his hands? Both in the bow and the stern.

Help him put together a small ditch kit for his life jacket.

Get him a set of his own maps to follow. Is your route completely set or can he help determine a portion? He can tesearch the campsites and portages here on this website and help make decisions on some places he would like to visit?

Is he a techie? Maybe he can put together the trip report? Photographer? Videographer? Find a skill he already has that can be put to use in the BWCA. Just because he has never been doesn't mean he is has no skills you might want for at least this trip. Find a tie in.

Hope you enjoy your time with him.

Make sure to sneak a few rocks into his pack.

I like to let others be the trip leaders. Someone has to lead,! Small mistakes are ok, nothing like screwing up to make a point. Anytime things get scary I always offer strong suggestions. Class 3 rapids I make the decision, the trick is making everyone else think they made the choice.

there usually is 1 main person that does more organize for the trip than others , and in our trips that is usually me and maybe 1 other person , which i have no problem doing but i would never use the term leader .
everybody has a 1st trip and we all learn a little more each time we go.
1 thing i do not see in your post is does he have paddling experience ? if not your problems may start well before you get to camp LOL
but on a serious note just tell him to keep an open mind and nobody is a leader some just have more experience than others.
a lot of good videos on youtube for him to watch to get a real feel of the journey ahead.
ENJOY !

I guess it's your comment of not liking anyone having "authority" over him. I don't know anyone that does. That's how and why there are different styles and such of tripping. If your intent of cramming your "style" down his throat, of course, you're going to get opposition.

On the other hand, if he insists on joining your trip, he needs to conform to certain expectations that relate to type of trip and such. But just the fact you use the authority word, I think you need to look within as much as anything. Lots of people have a their way is the only way attitude. Not sure what he might be balking at. Lots of people taking on the leadership or coordinating role want to micromanage everything about everything right to how much toilet paper to bring.

If you're bringing a "newbie", you either have to adapt some to that person or just plain say no not this time. Just because you have five or five hundred trips under your belt, newbies need to make some of their own mistakes. If they are insisting on altering a trip from a style you can not handle, you can and have the right to say not this time, bro. Let's plan something together another time.

If you're going to let him go, you need to conform some, too... or at least be willing to let him make some of his own mistakes. And we all do. To my last trip, I made stupid mistakes, but graciously, my tripping partners didn't let it affect their trip and away we went. Group solos are great in my book for this reason. Everyone packs what they want, eats what they want, wakes up when they want and leaves camp when they want.

Hmmm........New experiences can be stressful for folks.

What I would do is try and alleviate and relieve some of that stress. The best way to do that is place few demands upon him.

I would try and bring him into the decision making process as per the planning so he feels a part. For example.........get the maps out and speak with him as an equal member and say "we are thinking of trying to get here the first day, what do you think"? Then you can explain distances and estimated times of arrival etc. If he feels included in the decision making process he is much more likely to "buy in" to goal orientated travel.

The next thing I would do if I were you is adapt my motto......."let everyone do what they want". Naturally I have some itinerary travel plans which I like some adherence to as per getting up early on a travel day but I make certain that all are agreed to such a plan.........otherwise, I don't insist on micromanaging anyone as per what they want to do. If they want to sleep in fine. If they don't want to help in camp chores I could care less. I will pick up the slack. If that means I cook AND wash dishes while they go fishing or sit on a rock I'm totally cool with that.

If they ask "what do you want me to do" then thats different. But basically things go better if you just let folk do what they want without grudging. Eventually most come around and will get with the program..........but when you start insisting on folk doing this or that then stuff starts going south. And once it starts going south it can be hard to right the ship. Better to be in a good mood and pamper your newbie and basically spoon feed them patiently and you will end up with a good trip and a future partner.

Lastly I would explain what I would consider as "deal breakers". For example, if you want to help with firewood processing your not swinging an axe or a hatchet. I don't mind if you don't help with dinner but ruining my trip because I have to evacuate you isn't part of the program. Accidents happen, but no sense in setting the table for one. Another "deal breaker" is wanting to leave early........I make certain folks understand that once we are on the water we are in until the planned departure time regardless of weather or bugs etc.

nctry: "I guess it's your comment of not liking anyone having "authority" over him. I don't know anyone that does. That's how and why there are different styles and such of tripping. If your intent of cramming your "style" down his throat of course your going to get opposition. "

I completely understand this, but those were his words, not mine. I just said that my buddy will be the leader and that he might need to make calls that affect everyone, such as deciding to push on or stop for the day or assigning chores to make things fair. It isn't supposed to be intimidating or micromanaging, but knowing his dislike or people telling him what to do, I just warned him that this was a possibility and he needs to work with the group and do his fair share. This was the same conversation where I was telling him that the trip is hard work but very rewarding, so I was just trying to let him know what to expect.

Youtube videos are probably going to be his tool of choice to research the BWCA so the LNT video, Cliff Jacobson and some howto's are great suggestions, thanks. I'll lead him to these resources next time we talk. I had completely forgotten about the series by Cliff.

We actually both live in Minnesota now. He used to live in California but that was only meant to be a temporary thing so he could see a bit of the world before he was 30, so he lives in the Cities now while I live in the Mankato area. Not close per-say, but I can stop by to pick him up on the way up north.

For what he can be in charge of... That's something he needs to come up with, either ahead of time after doing research or when we are out there, but I'd rather not decide that for him. We already have the route planned, and it has been since January, well before he ever even considered going. He knows and is ok with this too. I'm hoping that he'll find something in the howto videos and try to become an expert in that, if not then he will take part in every role at least once while we are out there so he should find something he enjoys, besides starting the fire and drinking the brandy.

Our attitude on BWCA trips is that the guys are doing this together to hang out. Just like hunting, everyone pitches in and gets everything done. We'll get out there, do the work and enjoy the experience. He hunts with the family too so its not like the whole idea is foreign to him.

Like I said before, most of this is probably just pessimism on my part because I like to have a solution to every potential issue that might come up, but the people part is not something I can just fix, build or buy something for. If it were a random guy that my buddy knew through work or something, I wouldn't care as much, but I want my brother to enjoy this too. I just want to do what I can to make this trip a success and that means giving little brother the tools to succeed.

And of course the old saying should all else fail..............

"The beatings will continue until morale improves"

This thread makes me appreciate how lucky I have been with going on trips with other people. I don't recall ever designating leaders or coordinators, but thinking about all the decisions that do have to be made I am actually surprised things have worked out so well for us. I am not just talking a few trips either, I would guess I have been on 50+ Bwca/Quetico trips over the last 40 years.

Good information to consider here...

"I guess it's your comment of not liking anyone having "authority" over him. I don't know anyone that does."

Well, whereas my knowledge about most topics is swamp shallow, I'm Lake Baikal when it comes to authority, for it's what I studied and taught in college and argued deep into countless nights with those who held great authority, from presidents to newspaper publishers to aircraft carrier captains. It's my bailiwick, baby. Many people prefer 'having "authority" over' them and if that authority is earned, if the person wielding it is the best and most experienced, I'm among them.

Yeah missmolly, it is reassuring to have someone to look up to. Times when I find myself as the most experienced or most knowledgeable/comfortable with something, it usually is a bit of an uncomfortable position to be in. Sure, I like to have some control and to have my opinion heard, who doesn't, but that doesn't mean I want complete authority. I think most people are like this. That might be a reason why it is so jarring to hear my little brother of all people say things like not wanting anyone having any authority over him.

Honestly I had thought that mentioning that we have a leader and saying that he had been doing this for 20 years or so, multiple times a year, would be a good thing. I know he doesn't like authority but having experience on our side should be a good thing, right?

I like the term "trip organizer". If communicating by group e-mails or texts I will end messages by saying "any and all suggestions or questions are encouraged and please respond to all as others usually have similar questions".

It has been a while since this was last posted, but it is a good time for a reminder to all new and experienced trippers:

Canoeing Etiquette

Send your brother the link with a note that the suggestions apply not to him specifically, but to all who go on canoe trips.

"Times when I find myself as the most experienced or most knowledgeable/comfortable with something, it usually is a bit of an uncomfortable position to be in."

Indeed. Heavy lies the crown.

"Having experience on our side should be a good thing, right?"

Exactly. As I already shared, my knowledge is generally shallow. For example, I can do a bit of plumbing and electrical, but from time to time, I hire an expert, a person who's already made all the mistakes I would have made if I didn't submit to the authority of that expert. Well-placed authority comes from experience, i.e. time. To paraphrase the Stones, time is on our side. Yes, it is.

mastertangler: "And of course the old saying should all else fail..............

"The beatings will continue until morale improves" "

What we have here is a failure to communicate...... Luke sure had a real cool hand........

QueticoMike: "

mastertangler: "And of course the old saying should all else fail..............


"The beatings will continue until morale improves" "

What we have here is a failure to communicate...... Luke sure had a real cool hand........"

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do......... Failure to communicate

The theme of refusing to listen to experience makes me think of a Cliff Jacobson story he told in one of his books. Forgive me if I butcher the details. He paddles upon a group of young campers diving off a small cliff, informs them it’s not a good idea to jump head first into these waters. The adult “leader” of this trip tells Cliff to mind his own business, and tells him to be on his way. Not too long after that, two frantic youths paddled into his camp in tears saying one of their friends had dove into some rocks and needed to be evacuated.

As many have mentioned, no one likes being told what to do. I try to remember this story every time I get that feeling.

QueticoMike: "

mastertangler: "And of course the old saying should all else fail..............


"The beatings will continue until morale improves" "

What we have here is a failure to communicate...... Luke sure had a real cool hand........"

Interestingly, Strother Martin (the captain) and Paul Newman (Luke) teamed up 10 years later in Slapshot........ where more failure to communicate was evident!

Mike

mjmkjun: "A1t2o, you really care for your brother and it is obvious. Shortcut: Encourage him to read this thread--with you.


"

Love the idea!!

Mike

Make sure you bring everything you need then tell him he is in charge while everyone screws around and does nothing. It is far better to teach than to tell......

He who would be King, shall be. Give him a specific day or more to be in charge and let him succeed or fail. If no real danger crops up, go with it. If a danger is looming, take a vote on the best course of action and do that. He will find being king is not all it can be cracked up to be.

MikeinMpls: "

QueticoMike: "

mastertangler: "And of course the old saying should all else fail..............



"The beatings will continue until morale improves" "

What we have here is a failure to communicate...... Luke sure had a real cool hand........"

Interestingly, Strother Martin (the captain) and Paul Newman (Luke) teamed up 10 years later in Slapshot........ where more failure to communicate was evident!


Mike"

Both movies were classics! Old time hockey :)

My brother may be the last person I would ever go on an extended trip with......

Lotw: "My brother may be the last person I would ever go on an extended trip with...... "

I would never take either of my brothers. Actually I'm the only outdoors person in the family.
Not one person has ever hinted about going. My Mom mentioned going up to Ely and spending some time in a cabin once but that was about as close as it came to anyone wanting to go north.

boonie: "Picking it up from Daniel Pauly or anyone on the web, will be great . . . as long as you do it exactly the same way as Pauly or me or whomever . . .


I would just write him up a short note -


"I know you'll want to know how we do things and why before the trip to fit in seamlessly, so here is what we all do . . .


"

+1 This is what I did with my brother even went so far as to share my pack list and a couple photo's of what I was bringing and why

mastertangler: "

QueticoMike: "

mastertangler: "And of course the old saying should all else fail..............



"The beatings will continue until morale improves" "

What we have here is a failure to communicate...... Luke sure had a real cool hand........"

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do......... Failure to communicate "

I bet neither one of you can eat all those hard boiled eggs......

QueticoMike: "

Lotw: "My brother may be the last person I would ever go on an extended trip with...... "

I would never take either of my brothers. Actually I'm the only outdoors person in the family.
Not one person has ever hinted about going. My Mom mentioned going up to Ely and spending some time in a cabin once but that was about as close as it came to anyone wanting to go north."

I am on the opposite side of this coin.....my Brother and I go in June 18th...just the two of us. Although, first time together in the BWCA since we were kids. My dad always had us on separate trips after that.

My dad always wanted to take us but never got around to it. He always had his projects and liked boating more. Now that I'm into going up there and am bringing my little brother, he seems pretty proud. Even if he didn't take us there, we still are able to experience it.

Reading threads like these where there are multiple people going on a trip, differing styles of trip expectations, the need for a trip leader/organizer, etc. makes me realize how very different our experiences always were. And, in some ways, I guess it makes me thankful.

Thankful that I almost always went with just one other, he had a bit more experience than I, and he signed the permits as "leader". But we were, simply put, a team. We planned together, made the big decisions together, and had so little discord it amazes me to this day. First trip in 1971, last trip in 2013. No regrets; at least none that are worth mentioning. Made a lot of mistakes, but none that got us hurt badly, and obviously none that killed us. :-)

A tandem trip with a comfortable companion takes away the "group dynamics" aspect of canoe-tripping almost as much as a solo trip, I am thinking. But then, it depends upon the comfort level with the companion. I was blessed.

Having said all of this: I would love to have the kind of relationship with my brother, my only sibling, that would make a canoe trip with him a possibility. He wouldn't be caught dead in a canoe, or in a tent, or camping in the woods in any fashion. We are oil and water in almost every respect imaginable. And that is a sad fact that I DO regret.

Selfsuffi: "

QueticoMike: "

Lotw: "My brother may be the last person I would ever go on an extended trip with...... "

I would never take either of my brothers. Actually I'm the only outdoors person in the family.
Not one person has ever hinted about going. My Mom mentioned going up to Ely and spending some time in a cabin once but that was about as close as it came to anyone wanting to go north."

I am on the opposite side of this coin.....my Brother and I go in June 18th...just the two of us. Although, first time together in the BWCA since we were kids. My dad always had us on separate trips after that."

All my brothers want to do is golf. All my Dad wants to do is play tennis. Thank God for Grandpa and taking me fishing!