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RoundRiver
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05/27/2018 12:09AM
Hi all. Just got back from another great BWCAW trip - a 48 mile solo adventure through the little lakes between Sag, Knife, and Ottertrack, then down Alpine and across Seagull. It is extremely dry in much of this area. Limited rain in the next week's forecast. So, I strongly encourage you to plan to cook without a fire, and to not have a fire. I have no idea why the USFS has not issued a ban, especially given the Quetico did a week or so ago according to Seagull Outfitters. The two businesses I talked to along the Gunflint do not understand why there is no burn ban either, and are legitimately concerned.
 
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05/27/2018 12:31AM
yeah SUPER dry.

I won't even have a small campfire at my house right now for fear of sparking off the entire forest.

We need rain terribly bad.
WhiteWolf
distinguished member(5104)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
05/27/2018 01:47AM
Yeah, just came back from a week in the Insula / Alice area and the forest is very snappy. Thunder storms last night helped things but more rain is needed. Bugs are getting June like.
old_salt
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05/27/2018 07:12AM
Grand Marais got a good downpour yesterday.
LindenTree3
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05/27/2018 07:58AM
Im in Isabella now, this fire fighter agrees, it is very dry.
A fire engine from Montana went through our campgrounds yesterday, I spoke to them, they said there here for fire severity.

We have not started a fire in the pit, but I rarely do anyways.
Mocha
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05/27/2018 08:42AM
just a guess, but putting my money on a fire restriction put in place after the holiday weeekend. don't want to upset the tourists cuz they can't have a campfire!
LindenTree3
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05/27/2018 09:50AM
Mocha: "just a guess, but putting my money on a fire restriction put in place after the holiday weeekend. don't want to upset the tourists cuz they can't have a campfire!"

Yep, that's why I made my prediction that it will be after the holiday weekend if it happens. We will see what the line of storms moving out of Fargo brings the Superior today.
05/27/2018 10:05AM
When I picked up my permit last Saturday (19th) I did the "quiz" with another group after we watched the video and the Ranger was trying to talk about how dry it was even though it was raining at the moment and the other group kept interrupting her and saying "we can still have a fire though". She was doing her best to encourage them not to have a fire.

It rained most of the morning Saturday and by Sunday everything was crispy and dusty already again.
Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/27/2018 12:20PM
LindenTree3: "Im in Isabella now, this fire fighter agrees, it is very dry.
A fire engine from Montana went through our campgrounds yesterday, I spoke to them, they said there here for fire severity.


We have not started a fire in the pit, but I rarely do anyways."

How can an agency that can't afford to clear trails bring in a fire engine from Montana on per diem and quarters?
proepro
member (48)member
 
05/27/2018 02:26PM
Would a stove like a Jetboil be O.K?
05/27/2018 04:17PM
Yes, stoves are ok (and needed) during a fire ban.
LindenTree3
distinguished member(2461)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/27/2018 07:27PM
Carver: "LindenTree3: "Im in Isabella now, this fire fighter agrees, it is very dry.
A fire engine from Montana went through our campgrounds yesterday, I spoke to them, they said there here for fire severity.



We have not started a fire in the pit, but I rarely do anyways."

How can an agency that can't afford to clear trails bring in a fire engine from Montana on per diem and quarters?"


Ask your congressional representative.
05/27/2018 07:35PM
I was surprised to see the fire danger sign on low this morning. But it is greening up and we are sitting a lot better here than it's been. Is the gunflint side that much drier? I thought I'd seen it in Ely. Helped KevinL get his truck moved so he didn't have to hoof it back to the EP when they come out.
LindenTree3
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05/27/2018 07:41PM
nctry: "I was surprised to see the fire danger sign on low this morning. But it is greening up and we are sitting a lot better here than it's been. Is the gunflint side that much drier? I thought I'd seen it in Ely. Helped KevinL get his truck moved so he didn't have to hoof it back to the EP when they come out."

Yep nctry,
It's pretty dry in Isabella now, but I wouldn't say it's extreme fire danger.
I am still betting if there is not any measurable precip in the next 7 days, the BW may see fire restrictions.
AKA, no camp fires between 6 am and 7 pm.
05/27/2018 08:21PM
Yup I was just came back from a Bikepacking trip in Superior National Forest. Very very dry
Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/27/2018 08:54PM
LindenTree3: "Carver: "LindenTree3: "Im in Isabella now, this fire fighter agrees, it is very dry.
A fire engine from Montana went through our campgrounds yesterday, I spoke to them, they said there here for fire severity.



We have not started a fire in the pit, but I rarely do anyways."

How can an agency that can't afford to clear trails bring in a fire engine from Montana on per diem and quarters?"




Ask your congressional representative. "

He has no knowledge of fire and the Forest Service . Christopher Burchfield does cover the problem in his book entitled, "The Tinder Box."
sunnybear09
distinguished member(912)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/28/2018 05:08AM
Just so you know, "carver", Linden is a professional Forest Service firefighter and probably knows more about how the Service works than you will ever know by reading a book.
smokey bear
Guest Paddler
 
05/28/2018 06:19AM
The Tinder Box: How Politicallly Correct Ideology Destroyed the U.S Forest Service.
I will have to read this book. It got excellent reviews form forest service employees.
There is a half hour video about the pagami fire. They interviewed about 6 forest service employees that got caught in the fire and could have died. I remember watching it and think of those 6 people only 1 or maybe 2 were qualified to be forest service employees.
LindenTree3
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05/28/2018 08:03AM
Carver: "
How can an agency that can't afford to clear trails bring in a fire engine from Montana on per diem and quarters?"


This may answer your question Carver, or explain why trails are not being maintained
Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/28/2018 08:29AM
sunnybear09: "Just so you know, "carver", Linden is a professional Forest Service firefighter and probably knows more about how the Service works than you will ever know by reading a book."
I started working for what is now called the Old Forest Service in 1958. I am aware of what happened to the Forest Service over the years but was not clear in how it happened. The book explains that by using their own documents. The sell out to Big Timber in the seventies was not covered though for it happened before the author joined the service.
sunnybear09
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05/28/2018 08:51AM
Carver: "sunnybear09: "Just so you know, "carver", Linden is a professional Forest Service firefighter and probably knows more about how the Service works than you will ever know by reading a book."
I started working for what is now called the Old Forest Service in 1958. I am aware of what happened to the Forest Service over the years but was not clear in how it happened. The book explains that by using their own documents. The sell out to Big Timber in the seventies was not covered though for it happened before the author joined the service. "


Which as Linden suggested, was probably mandated by special-interested congressmen to support their various re-elections. And while I have never practiced in that role, I have a B.S. in Forestry and more than a passing interest. We live in a very self-motivated world, and it doesn't take more than one or two people in the right (or wrong!) place to skew results to the wrong end. My objection to your post was the categorical statement that Linden, or his congressman knows nothing about fires and the forest service--not that abuse of power has not happened.

Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/28/2018 09:13AM
sunnybear09: "Carver: "sunnybear09: "Just so you know, "carver", Linden is a professional Forest Service firefighter and probably knows more about how the Service works than you will ever know by reading a book."
I started working for what is now called the Old Forest Service in 1958. I am aware of what happened to the Forest Service over the years but was not clear in how it happened. The book explains that by using their own documents. The sell out to Big Timber in the seventies was not covered though for it happened before the author joined the service. "



Which as Linden suggested, was probably mandated by special-interested congressmen to support their various re-elections. And while I have never practiced in that role, I have a B.S. in Forestry and more than a passing interest. We live in a very self-motivated world, and it doesn't take more than one or two people in the right (or wrong!) place to skew results to the wrong end. My objection to your post was the categorical statement that Linden, or his congressman knows nothing about fires and the forest service--not that abuse of power has not happened.


"
Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/28/2018 09:28AM
Carver: "sunnybear09: "Carver: "sunnybear09: "Just so you know, "carver", Linden is a professional Forest Service firefighter and probably knows more about how the Service works than you will ever know by reading a book."
I started working for what is now called the Old Forest Service in 1958. I am aware of what happened to the Forest Service over the years but was not clear in how it happened. The book explains that by using their own documents. The sell out to Big Timber in the seventies was not covered though for it happened before the author joined the service. "




Which as Linden suggested, was probably mandated by special-interested congressmen to support their various re-elections. And while I have never practiced in that role, I have a B.S. in Forestry and more than a passing interest. We live in a very self-motivated world, and it doesn't take more than one or two people in the right (or wrong!) place to skew results to the wrong end. My objection to your post was the categorical statement that Linden, or his congressman knows nothing about fires and the forest service--not that abuse of power has not happened.

I am aware of Linden's fire experience so that the categorical statement was not directed at him but rather how my congressman fails to respond to questions that he doesn't like. He just sends out a form letter that has nothing to do with my request.

"
"
Pinetree
distinguished member(12783)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
05/28/2018 12:08PM
LindenTree3: "Carver: "
How can an agency that can't afford to clear trails bring in a fire engine from Montana on per diem and quarters?"



This may answer your question Carver, or explain why trails are not being maintained "


For years I thought additional money should be allocated for fire fighting and now with so much drought etc. more money is needed badly.

Around 1969 the USFS Superior had like 350 employees,now it is a skeleton crew compared to that.Less money now for timber cruising,trail,campsites etc. Nation wide.

As recently as 1995, the Forest Service spent only 16 percent of its budget on fire. In 2017, though, wildfire suppression costs ate up more than half the agency’s budget, exceeding $2 billion. Because its fire budget rarely matched the true costs of increasingly explosive fire seasons, the agency was then forced to raid other programs to pay for firefighting. Such “fire borrowing” robbed funding from watershed restoration projects, invasive species programs and initiatives to reduce fire risk.

Carver
Guest Paddler
 
05/28/2018 01:24PM
I had worked for the Forest Service for many years but in 1976, the Regional Forester, Douglas Leitz 's reply to a comment was, "Don't try to change us, if you don't like the way we operate, quit." It was sound advice and a decision that I never regretted. It is best that I sign out now.
A1t2o
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05/29/2018 09:54AM
Is the gunflint getting some rain today? Radar looks promising, with a couple scattered showers in the next few days. How much rain do we need? I get that we probably need a good soaking instead of scattered showers, but how much do we need before we feel more comfortable with campfires?

Sorry if I'm a little oblivious to dry conditions but the amount of rainfall is not something I typically pay attention to.
LindenTree3
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05/29/2018 12:12PM
A1t2o: "Is the gunflint getting some rain today? Radar looks promising, with a couple scattered showers in the next few days. How much rain do we need? I get that we probably need a good soaking instead of scattered showers, but how much do we need before we feel more comfortable with campfires?


Sorry if I'm a little oblivious to dry conditions but the amount of rainfall is not something I typically pay attention to."


MN uses the CFFDRS, or Canadian Forest Fire Danger Rating System.
One of the measures is Duff Moisture Code, right now its in the Extreme range (High 70's) in much of the Superior NF.
An inch or more of rain should bring this down into the 20's and 30's, A pretty normal range.

Here is the CFFDRS for MN, Note Duff Moisture Code
Minnesotian
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05/29/2018 12:55PM
Pinetree:

As recently as 1995, the Forest Service spent only 16 percent of its budget on fire. In 2017, though, wildfire suppression costs ate up more than half the agency’s budget, exceeding $2 billion. Because its fire budget rarely matched the true costs of increasingly explosive fire seasons, the agency was then forced to raid other programs to pay for firefighting. Such “fire borrowing” robbed funding from watershed restoration projects, invasive species programs and initiatives to reduce fire risk.


"


That has just changed and will be put into effect starting in 2020.

"Under the bill, USDA and the Department of the Interior will have a new joint budget authority of $2.25 billion to cover firefighting costs that exceed regular appropriations. The new authority will begin in fiscal year 2020 and increase by $100 million per year through fiscal year 2027.

To be sure, the fire funding fix will not kick in right away. For the 2018–2019 fire years, we will continue to rely on regular appropriations based on the 10-year rolling average of firefighting costs. However, the omnibus bill contains $500 million in emergency suppression funds for 2018, in addition to our regular appropriation of $1.057 billion for suppression.

When the fire funding fix does kick in, the Forest Service—and the American people—will benefit in two key ways. First, it will end the need for us to borrow from non-fire programs to cover firefighting costs when regular appropriations run out during severe fire years. Since 2000, fire borrowing has disrupted other critical resource management work in most years. Second, the fire funding fix will stop the erosion of our non-fire programs. As our suppression costs have continued to rise, they have eaten up a growing proportion of the overall Forest Service budget. The fire funding fix will help us finally restore balance to our program delivery on behalf of the people we serve."

Read the complete statement here: A fire budget for the 21st century
Pinetree
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05/29/2018 01:14PM
LindenTree3: "A1t2o: "Is the gunflint getting some rain today? Radar looks promising, with a couple scattered showers in the next few days. How much rain do we need? I get that we probably need a good soaking instead of scattered showers, but how much do we need before we feel more comfortable with campfires?



Sorry if I'm a little oblivious to dry conditions but the amount of rainfall is not something I typically pay attention to."



MN uses the CFFDRS, or Canadian Forest Fire Danger Rating System.
One of the measures is Duff Moisture Code, right now its in the Extreme range (High 70's) in much of the Superior NF.
An inch or more of rain should bring this down into the 20's and 30's, A pretty normal range.


Here is the CFFDRS for MN, Note Duff Moisture Code "


I use to like the one that measured the moisture content of wood. I see one of those is similar.
LindenTree3
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05/29/2018 01:20PM
Pinetree: "
I use to like the one that measured the moisture content of wood. I see one of those is similar."


I believe MN still uses that one also, or a combination of the CFFDRS and the NFDRS,
National Fire Danger Rating System.
MY red flag was when 1000 hour fuels get below 18% it is starting to get dry out there.
I used a combnination of the 1,000 hour fuels and the Canadian Models when deciding to, or not to do a prescribed burn.


NFDRS note current 1,000 hour fuel moisture on bottom
Pinetree
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05/29/2018 01:54PM
LindenTree3: "Pinetree: "
I use to like the one that measured the moisture content of wood. I see one of those is similar."



I believe MN still uses that one also, or a combination of the CFFDRS and the NFDRS,
National Fire Danger Rating System.
MY red flag was when 1000 hour fuels get below 18% it is starting to get dry out there.
I used a combnination of the 1,000 hour fuels and the Canadian Models when deciding to, or not to do a prescribed burn.



NFDRS note current 1,000 hour fuel moisture on bottom "


As you well know fighting fires.
I am amazed how much hotter even a campfire can be when moisture content is low in wood vs burning wet wood that barely seems hot even when burning. I see MN DNR has one called the energy release.
SouthernExposure
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05/30/2018 10:14AM
I realize that one rain storm doesn't solve every fire danger situation, but the storm that's passing over the BWCA right now looks like it will certainly help rehydrate the dry conditions a good bit.

Cheers.
LindenTree3
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05/30/2018 06:42PM
The people camping in the BW are getting a soaker now.

I'm betting the Duff Moisture Code and fire danger will be next to zero when this low pressure exits.
 
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