Is it ok to fish in Canada while having an overnight BWCA permit? I have the RABC permit and my annual Ontario fishing license. This is not BWCA to Quetico so I don’t need the Quetico Permit. What are the rules? It seems odd that if I drifted over into Canadian waters while fishing I would need another overnight permit to enter and camp as I never stayed in Canada I just fished it for the day.

What are the rules and what gets enforced?
I have done this in the past and never even thought about it.

So you are going to fish in Canada from the BWCA but not Quetico. You will be on Crown land. No permit needed unless you camp overnight.

Therefore my take is that you are perfectly legal to do this. Some people have mentioned that a new permit is needed to go back to the US side. However, I have done trips starting in the BWCA, going to Quetico and returning to the BWCA and a USFS person told me only one permit is needed. The entering from Canada permit #71 is only for trips originating in Canada.

As far as enforcement. It's all enforced.

Tom

tumblehome: "So you are going to fish in Canada from the BWCA but not Quetico. You will be on Crown land. No permit needed unless you camp overnight.


Therefore my take is that you are perfectly legal to do this. Some people have mentioned that a new permit is needed to go back to the US side. However, I have done trips starting in the BWCA, going to Quetico and returning to the BWCA and a USFS person told me only one permit is needed. The entering from Canada permit #75 is only for trips originating in Canada.


As far as enforcement. It's all enforced.


Tom"

I have heard from people you have to get a new permit when entering from Canada but it doesn’t make intuitive sense as there are only 3 permits per day available from “Canada” and where are all the day pass boxes in Canada for those going back and forth in a day?

tumblehome:
As far as enforcement. It's all enforced.


Tom"

That’s what I’m worried about in these a days of nit pickers who ignore intent and interpreting the spirit of a law and focus more on the gotcha factor.

It's entry point 71.
According to www.recreation.gov. :
_________________________________________________________________________________
"Entrance Description
Use only when trip originates in Canada, then passes into the BWCAW.
Trip must originate from Canada without passing through BWCAW first."
__________________________________________________________________________________

I think this is pretty straight forward. You are good to go. A lot of people do indeed muk up this entry point. No need to worry about an astute USFS ranger questioning the validity of your actions. It's the ignorant ones you need to be aware of! Keep a copy of the verbiage of the permit requirements. No prudent person would disagree with it. Have fun on your day trips to Canada!

Of course... you do need to stop by customs on the way home and 'splain yourself.
Tom

tumblehome: "It's entry point 71.
According to www.recreation.gov. :
_________________________________________________________________________________
"Entrance Description
Use only when trip originates in Canada, then passes into the BWCAW.
Trip must originate from Canada without passing through BWCAW first."
__________________________________________________________________________________

I think this is pretty straight forward. You are good to go. A lot of people do indeed muk up this entry point. No need to worry about an astute USFS ranger questioning the validity of your actions. It's the ignorant ones you need to be aware of! Keep a copy of the verbiage of the permit requirements. No prudent person would disagree with it. Have fun on your day trips to Canada!


Of course... you do need to stop by customs on the way home and 'splain yourself.
Tom
"

Thanks for the input! Will do with customs.

Not trying to nitpick, but why would you need a new permit if you exit and reenter from the states, but not need one if you exit and reenter from Canada?

You also need an Ontario outdoors fishing card $9.68, and it is good for three years. Read more about Ontario fishing rules Here

You can do whatever you please but other than the specific border travel permitted by treaty, if you are in the BWCAW on a permit enter Canada for any other reason you have left the BWCAW and that trip has ended. I have confirmed this with a number of USFS officers and have it in writing from one. Therefore if you renter the BWCAW you trip is orignating in Canada. I kust confirmed this again at Canoecopia with USFS officers there. It may not make sense, may not be enforced, and may not be agreed to by all officers.

Not that many will, but if you reenter the USA laws require you to check in at a US Cusyoms and Border Protection station.

Full disclosure, I am not a Forest Service worker :) but I think you would be fine under the above circumstances. Permit 71, which I have used is for entry into the BWCAW for camping when coming back from Canada. I have used it when starting a trip in the Quetico and then working my way back out through the BWCAW camping one to 2 more nights in the BWCAW.

I know technically since you are leaving the BWCAW you are supposed to get a new permit but it just seems so silly in your particular case. I just cannot see any reasonable employee fining you for re-entry into the BWCAW in this case. I think they could( billconnor confirms above that they could—edit) but it is one of those things where you are violating the letter of the law but upholding the spirit of the law. You are never leaving he wilderness and it isn’t very long. It’s not like people who camp on entry lakes and take day trips out into town and then re-enter with out a new permit—-that is the reason for the rules...they don’t want people resuply8ng themselves on one permit or using the BWCAW like a campground.

T

Why would I need a new permit if I leave the bwca and re-enter? There are many canoe routes that cause you to leave and re- enter the bwca. Crossing the fernberg trail, gunflint trail, and echo trail are the primary causes of this.

Entry point 71 specifically states that it is used for trips originating in Canada where your trip did not start in the bwca. See either recreation.gov or my original post.

@bill. Can you shoot a picture of your letter from the Forest Service that says otherwise and post the picture? Thanks.

Tom

From the Forest Service BWCAW rules:
“You may not enter/re-enter at a different point or date using this permit.”

Once you leave the BWCAW for whatever reason I was under the impression from talking to rangers and the rules that this required a new permit. In the situations outlined above you are choosing a route that has you temporarily leaving the BWCAW and would require a new permit entry—-otherwise this potentially contributes to the crowding issue. The FS has that weird rule a permit is good for however many days you want for the same price, but they have the rule about re-entry to combat the congestion.
Maybe they look the other way for routes that take you out temporarily as long as it is continuous travel? Once again I would look at the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law.

T

I have, with permission, posted the email from the USFS. I'll look for it and post again, or ask my new contact in Duluth for an updated statement. (seems working for USFS is a bit like military or IBM - always moving). I suggest others try to confirm or contradict this.

When I tried to make the case for one permit before and after a Quetico segment, it was clearly stated that "leaving the wilderness" means leaving the BWCAW specifically, not the idea of just the wilderness.

The corridor crossing rules is another thing I have asked for and have yet to get clarification on. My discussion with officers at Canoecopia leaned toward the concept that the only permitted (permit remains valid) corridor crossings are between the disconnected parts of the BWCAW - basically Echo and Gunflint Trails - nor Fernberg.

It's tough because there is practically no chance of getting caught on this. The only thing I have found they don't discuss is how many officers are in the BWCAW at any one time. Darn few is my estimate. Maybe not 10-12 in peak season. That's the real crime imho.

Chasing down the restricted permit questions are even harder. The Caribou (?) EDIT: Crocodile. Permit where you are limited to that lake resulted in initial disagreement between two officers. I need better than 2 out of 3 responses to that to post on it. I know there is a sign but some questions for me if it was authorized initially or a local action.

One of the nice things about the Q - you can call and get clear answers.

PS: I edited because while looking for email re: From Canada I stumbled on the response to the Crocodile question of can you camp there with other than an EP66. This was before someone posted a picture of an apparently USFS sign stating no you cannot. I was told you could. Then asking two rangers at same time at Canoecopia, they disagreed, the younger one eventually giving way to the older of the two. Is it any wonder that we can't agree when in fact the officers don't? And they still keep avoiding the corridor crossing question.

Thanks for looking into that billconnor.

While you are at it can you get 100% clarification on the 4 person/9 people rule can never be together no matter what controversy as well :) just kidding.

To the original poster I would just do what you planned with no additional permit. I have found US Forest Service employees/rangers to be very nice and more on the end of informing than fining as long as you are nice to them. Ethically I have no problem with what you are planning to do and will not have a negative impact on the wilderness nor the wilderness experience for anyone.

Good luck and enjoy your trip

Based on ""leaving the wilderness" means leaving the BWCAW specifically, not the idea of just the wilderness." it would follow that every time we use a portage on the Canadian side of a border route, while legal and allowed, we need a new permit at the end of each portage? That feels as unreasonable as needing a new permit after every fishing trip into Canadian waters (with a RABC permit and Ontario fishing license).

No, those portages are a specific written exception.

schweady: "No, those portages are a specific written exception.
"

Just as are the corridor crossings.

So, if my canoe drifts 1/4 mile across into Canada on a reef that is on the border several times per day, would I need 2 or 3 permits? If I go across the border 1 mile to fish a point 2 times in a day do I need 2 permits?
What about all the daily day trippers blasting across back and forth to Canada on Lake Saganaga. Should I just wave to them and think they deserve that I don’t ?

Why are there so few From Canada permits issued at 3 per day or used as it rarely sells out?
I follow the regs as I have bailers, 50 ft ropes and even whistles for Canada. I need this straight and to make sense, because it doesn’t make common sense.

Speaking of “Common Sense” I was at the Ranger station this weekend getting my permit and watching the video for the 50th time and the ranger said “no more than 4 Canoes or 9 people at a portage regardless of groups.” I thought -what would one do at a portage? paddle around,how far away is Legal, can I talk to one person or if I said something to the whole group would I be breaking the law?

What do you think should I pull 1 or 3 permits a day “From Canada” for my fishing trips?

I have no say in what you should do in these regards. All I have tried to do is find and pist the facts when there are differing opinions on what the regs are.

I've been thinking about a Grand Portage to LOW trip and trying to figure out how to be able to camp either side of border. I think it's possible to do and follow all the rules but not positive. Very hard to report to US customs " immediately after entering US" if you won't see civilization for a week or two.

As far as common sense, or any sense, I never expect that in federal requlations, so can't help.

Take comfort that there is very little enforcement of these rules and have fun.

PS. On the several times per day issue, carry and fill out day passes if you're concerned.

billconner:


PS. On the several times per day issue, carry and fill out day passes if you're concerned."

Never seen a day pass box on the border? The FS needs their copy don’tcha know. A week later drop in the box would be a no no as I carried one in and was stopped on Bearskin/croc portage for the day permit to Croc. and showed both copies and was told “no no” by Smokey.

MackinawTrout: "

billconner:



PS. On the several times per day issue, carry and fill out day passes if you're concerned."

Never seen a day pass box on the border? The FS needs their copy don’tcha know. A week later drop in the box would be a no no as I carried one in and was stopped on Bearskin/croc portage for the day permit to Croc. and showed both copies and was told “no no” by Smokey."

I don't know but just asked an officer and we'll see if they reply. I suspect they may have a procedure or exception for day paddle permits from Canada, just as they have an exception for picking up a EP71 From Canada permit much further in advance of the entry day or day before rule. Clearly a lot of folks paddle out of Canada and I suspect many without a valid permit. I, permy outfitters request, carry a day paddle permit and fill it out at PP, and put the USFS copy in the bottom of my bag. My outfitter specifically said to not show them both copies. Now I know why.

The rules and the interpretations are not clear nor even published or available concisely and in one place. I've tried going through the CFR but thats all designed for lawer full employment so is incomprehensible to mortal humans. I've always tried to follow the law. (I'm sure you'd be cursing and blinking lights as I drive along in right hand lane at the speed limit if you were stuck behind me. ) So I've tried to make a point of finding out the actual rules, not just a brochure or wen side piece of narrative or phrase, and how the USFS intends to interpret and enforce them, and post that here.