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Pilgrimpaddler
member (42)member
 
06/05/2018 11:34AM
I've made about about a dozen trips into the bdub but will be doing my first solo at the the end of this month. In all my previous time "in", I've never encountered a bear (or even any obvious signs of a bear). In my previous group trips, we never brought bear-proof food packs and really never even hung the food pack. While the wisdom of this approach can be questioned, I would like some expert opinions as to whether simply hanging my food pack on my upcoming solo should be sufficient, or should I spend the $$ to get a bear-proof food container?
 
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nofish
distinguished member(2774)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 11:56AM
This is an ongoing debate with no solid answer.

It usually comes down to hanging pack or stashing a barrel. Odds are that both will work given that bear encounters in camp are relatively rare given the number of people in the BWCA every summer.

A stashed barrel strapped to a tree is probably your best defense because it can be used in any situation. A pack hung well is also a good defense but its not always an option if there are no suitable trees in the area of camp. Also pack trees tend to be used over and over again by all campers that use that site so bears begin to know where to look.

If you can swing it a barrel might be a good idea but with that said I have very often relied on the hanging pack method myself.
tarnkt
distinguished member (257)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 11:56AM
You will probably be fine. It’s up to you if that small amount of risk is acceptable.

I use a container as I hate the hassle of hanging and I’m not willing to risk it
bct
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
 
06/05/2018 11:58AM
I think if you keep a clean camp and store your food away from camp, you'll be fine. I prefer to keep food and anything else that smells yummy in a blue barrel tied to a tree, but not hung. I've never seen a bear, nor evidence of their presence. I have had ample experiences with raccoons, chipmunks, and mice. The blue barrel seems to have resolved those issues. Once, I accidentally left out cookies in a ziplock. In the morning when I got up, a chipmunk was in the ziploc.
cburton103
distinguished member (292)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 12:00PM
Depends on how long you stay “in”. The longer your trip, the more you stand to lose if you do happen to lose your food to a bear.

As far as the immediate concern of not losing your food, my group has used a blue barrel for years with good success. While certainly not fully bear proof, it is an easy storage method. On a solo trip if you pack light, a Bear Vault can be a great choice. That’s what I use while backpacking in areas with grizzlies or known problem black bears (or where they’re required). Decently light around 2 pounds, and it doubles as a seat or a table.

Secondarily, it’s important to protect your food from bears so you protect individual bears from becoming problem bears if they find your food. There’s not much downside besides a bit of upfront cost to protecting both yourself and the bears. Of course you should always keep a clean camp as well. Enjoy your trip!
anthonyp007
distinguished member (246)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 12:14PM
If you do a solid job of ziploc bagging your food, usually double or triple bagging you should be fine just stashing in the woods. I have an old school hard sided food pack with a lid held down by nylon straps with buckles and I’ve done the “stash” in the woods method for a long time without ever having a problem. My thoughts are, if a bear wants in my pack, they are going to get in, but at least it’s nowhere near me when he/she digs in. However, I try my best to have zero odors coming out of the food pack by triple sealing most things. When I solo, I bring a 3 gallon pail with a gamma seal lid and do the same thing, stash in the woods with everything sealed up real tight. Lots of schools of thought on this topic, but you should really do whatever allows you to sleep at night without fretting the bears too much.
NursePaddler
member (7)member
 
06/05/2018 12:34PM
The only true method of keeping bear out of your food is a Bear Vault. Ursacks are cool, I've thought about getting one. But it's kinda pointless in my opinion, whats the point of having a container they can't get in, but can still ruin your food through? Crushed food with bear saliva soaked into the ursack and possibly penetrated through the bag make the ursack not worth it in my opinion. They're as expensive as a Bear Vault, but the Vault is impenetrable (unless you're camping in the Adirondacks). There's a TINY risk of losing your food if you hang it in a regular dry bag, why bother with an equally TINY risk of losing your food while it's in an ursack? I just bought the Bear Vault and did away with worry of animals messing with my food. Pain to carry compared to the ursack, but the peace of mind that nothing is messing with my food, is worth it. I actually HOPE a bear would try.
Jaywalker
distinguished member(1551)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 01:17PM
nofish: "This is an ongoing debate with no solid answer.

It usually comes down to hanging pack or stashing a barrel. Odds are that both will work given that bear encounters in camp are relatively rare given the number of people in the BWCA every summer.

A stashed barrel strapped to a tree is probably your best defense because it can be used in any situation. A pack hung well is also a good defense but its not always an option if there are no suitable trees in the area of camp. Also pack trees tend to be used over and over again by all campers that use that site so bears begin to know where to look.

If you can swing it a barrel might be a good idea but with that said I have very often relied on the hanging pack method myself. "

+1
BTW, I switched to using a Harmony blue barrel for solo trips a few years ago mainly because i wanted to save 15-20 minutes of hanging time. Especially helps for those times you forgot something that needed to go in. Remember, on a solo trip you have to do all the chores, so saving time matters.
BigFlounder
member (31)member
 
06/05/2018 01:35PM
I'll be making my first trip to the BWCA next week, but have been backpacking for a few years and usually my trips are in the UP of Michigan where we own some land. I always use a ton of zip locs to seal up my food and then hang it properly. So far that's been sufficient and that'll be what I do in the BWCA. I don't see the need to spend money on a barrel unless I start going on more than one trip a year.
06/05/2018 02:16PM
I think the probability of a bear in camp is even less when I'm solo. There's only my food. I wouldn't get overly concerned about it since you're not going into a heavily used area with known bear problems, although Polly had some in the past - I'm not sure how recently.

I avoid sites that signs of bear and often camp at under-utilized sites when solo. I hung when I first started tripping, then switched to bear canisters, and now use Ursacks to save weight and space for trips over 8 days, which is about my limit for cramming food into a canister.

Some people have used the Vittles Vault.
06/05/2018 02:44PM
In my opinion bear concerns are overblown, but I do hang my pack nevertheless. Bears are not lurking at every campsite waiting for a moment to steal your pack and most bears want no human contact whatsoever. Most of the trouble I've had is with mice and other vermin. Keeping a clean campsite is important, the only problem is the 20-30 other groups that have camped there before you. Cliff Jacobson recommends stashing your pack well away from camp. However, he has never specified what distance that is. And in some instances that's not possible, especially if your camped on an island. There are places where there is persistent bear problem. The Basswood River, Agnes Lake, and Knife Lake to name a few. Check with the forest service about any bear activity before you leave. I like to hang my pack, but if I can't find a good tree I'll use the stash method.
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2168)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/05/2018 06:57PM
I'd recommend the 30 L blue barrel. Use solo or in a group for food stuff and for keeping items dry as it has a gasket in lid. I purchased a harness for mine and it's the most comfortable set-up I carry. Loaded, roughly 30 lbs (+/-). I take the harness off at camp so any night visitor will not grab-n-run. I secure it to a nearby tree in full view/in camp--with one of those bear bells attached. Won't scare bear away but it'll alert me.

Edited to add: Don't consider myself an expert. Just an opinion on this and that from years of camping.
06/05/2018 08:31PM
I'm more concerned with stumbling across a bear while portaging than I am worried about one in camp.

When portaging we just make sure we're having a good discussion or otherwise making a lot of noise so we don't turn a corner a find an unexpected surprise.
overthehill
distinguished member(4403)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/05/2018 09:34PM
Whatever practice worked on your last dozen trips should continue to work. I personally think SMELL is most the battle won assuming a clean camp.
Pilgrimpaddler
member (42)member
 
06/06/2018 08:11AM
overthehill: " Whatever practice worked on your last dozen trips should continue to work. I personally think SMELL is most the battle won assuming a clean camp. "

Keeping a clean camp is definitely a big deal for me. No food scraps or loose food products laying around keeps things neater and also seems to deter the rodents. I've always kept food in hard plastic containers and that also helps deter the rodents.
Mad_Angler
distinguished member(1580)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 09:28AM
First, I think a "clean camp" is impossible and BS. Folks often brag and nag about keeping a clean camp. From a bear's perspective, I do not think that is practical. There will always be cooking, eating, and/or garbage disposal smells for something as sensitive as a bear's nose.

Consider a single meal of Mountain House. No cooking smells. But you still get a long spoon dirty and then you have the bag to dispose of. Even if you try, you can't get the inside of the bag completely clean. If you double or triple bag the dirty bag in ziplocs, I doubt if that really accomplishes anything. Drug dogs can easily find drugs hidden with that technique.

And especially consider real cooking. Foods are heated and scent dispersed around camp. Some food may spill and certainly things like bacon grease or fish grease splatters around. There is no way to avoid some small spills.

And... even if you are perfect and somehow eliminate your smells 100%, it is certain that the previous 20 parties were not so careful.

So, let's stop with the "clean camp" nonsense...


Very few BW visitors see a bear. Even fewer have bear problems. I think the primary reason for that is that bears don't like humans and avoid us. The few bears that become problems are the rare exceptions. For those problem bears, a secured bear barrel is the only real option. The problem bears know the sites were food can not be hung sufficiently.
A1t2o
distinguished member(609)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 09:55AM
overthehill: " Whatever practice worked on your last dozen trips should continue to work. I personally think SMELL is most the battle won assuming a clean camp. "

Speaking of smell, what do you do with uneaten food like fish bones or skin? Not talking about a lot, because I would just dump it well away from camp, but in small quantities is it ok to burn it in a hot fire, stoked just to eliminate any traces? Even the larger quantities, like if a meal is terrible and no one wants to finish it or if it gets dumped on the ground by accident, I worry that I am basically just laying bait a distance from camp. Can't a bear follow your trail back to camp after being attracted by food scraps? What is the best practice here?
A1t2o
distinguished member(609)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 10:04AM
Mad_Angler: "First, I think a "clean camp" is impossible and BS. Folks often brag and nag about keeping a clean camp. From a bear's perspective, I do not think that is practical. There will always be cooking, eating, and/or garbage disposal smells for something as sensitive as a bear's nose."

I think this concept is overlooking key details. The whole point is that you do not want a bear in camp. That means not attracting it in the first place. Sure, it might smell like people have been there and cooked a bit too, but that alone does not attract them from a mile away and get them to overcome their fear of humans.

A clean camp is limiting the scent, not eliminating it. Its similar to throwing a party with noise sensitive neighbors, there will be noise, but hopefully you can keep from attracting the attention of people who can make your night miserable. With a bear you just don't want to have scents clearly noticeable where it attracts their attention and they start searching for food in your direction. We aren't trying to prevent nuisance bears from entering our camps, we are preventing bears from becoming nuisance bears in the first place.
TominMpls
distinguished member (415)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 10:04AM
A1t2o: "
Speaking of smell, what do you do with uneaten food like fish bones or skin? Not talking about a lot, because I would just dump it well away from camp, but in small quantities is it ok to burn it in a hot fire, stoked just to eliminate any traces? Even the larger quantities, like if a meal is terrible and no one wants to finish it or if it gets dumped on the ground by accident, I worry that I am basically just laying bait a distance from camp. Can't a bear follow your trail back to camp after being attracted by food scraps? What is the best practice here?"


LNT would tell you to pack out all that food. I pack out everything that doesn't pass through me and into a [latrine/cathole].

Let's hypothetically pretend somebody were to not do that. Animals, like people, understand paths, and they understand the places that are used, and that have been used, for hanging food, for walking, for preparing food, etc. Ever walked into a site and thought, "there's the perfect place for a food bag"? So has everybody who ever visited that site, and so do all the animals. One thing I've been told, and that I've tended to do, is to walk straight away from camp into the woods, not on a trail. I use bear vaults and I actually *do* pack out all my food scraps so it's not much of a concern, but I think you'd be much less likely to have issues with animals finding the food and/or connecting it with camp if you do this.

Even then, you really shouldn't dump food waste at all. burying it back in the woods is better than dumping it, but you're not likely to bury it deep enough to keep it from being dug out.
A1t2o
distinguished member(609)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 10:19AM
TominMpls: "LNT would tell you to pack out all that food. I pack out everything that doesn't pass through me and into a [latrine/cathole].

Even then, you really shouldn't dump food waste at all. burying it back in the woods is better than dumping it, but you're not likely to bury it deep enough to keep it from being dug out. "


What about fish guts then? I know they say to bury it, but it will get dug up. Some say to deep six them but others say that is bad too. Rotting fish guts are going to attract animals too, but people aren't going to pack those out. Seems like the same issue.

My question was more about fish bones and skin though. If it is uncooked, you bury it and if it is cooked you pack it out? I would worry about that food starting to stink and attracting more animals over the course of the trip. Small quantities should dry out and be fine, but what about a spine of a fish cooked whole or the head? Or do you just say those parts should be discarded with the guts?
Mad_Angler
distinguished member(1580)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 11:15AM
A1t2o: "...
A clean camp is limiting the scent, not eliminating it. Its similar to throwing a party with noise sensitive neighbors, there will be noise, but hopefully you can keep from attracting the attention of people who can make your night miserable. With a bear you just don't want to have scents clearly noticeable where it attracts their attention and they start searching for food in your direction. We aren't trying to prevent nuisance bears from entering our camps, we are preventing bears from becoming nuisance bears in the first place."


I think the party noise is a reasonable analogy. My contention is that the bear is like an EXTREMELY sensitive neighbor. That neighbor is going to hear your party no matter how careful you are.

But luckily, the neighbor is also fearful of conflict so it doesn't come over to complain to often.

To me, things like frying fish or bacon are like a very loud band at a party. You can ask the guests to whisper but that is sorta pointless while the band is playing.

Even if you avoid things like frying fish or making bacon, the folks before you probably did not avoid them.
nofish
distinguished member(2774)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 11:18AM
A1t2o: "TominMpls: "LNT would tell you to pack out all that food. I pack out everything that doesn't pass through me and into a [latrine/cathole].


Even then, you really shouldn't dump food waste at all. burying it back in the woods is better than dumping it, but you're not likely to bury it deep enough to keep it from being dug out. "



What about fish guts then? I know they say to bury it, but it will get dug up. Some say to deep six them but others say that is bad too. Rotting fish guts are going to attract animals too, but people aren't going to pack those out. Seems like the same issue.


My question was more about fish bones and skin though. If it is uncooked, you bury it and if it is cooked you pack it out? I would worry about that food starting to stink and attracting more animals over the course of the trip. Small quantities should dry out and be fine, but what about a spine of a fish cooked whole or the head? Or do you just say those parts should be discarded with the guts?"


The last several years I've been in the BWCA and picked up permits from a Rangers Station they have told me not to bury the remains of the fish. They said its best to simply dispose of them away from camp and portages. Ideally paddling away from camp and finding a shoreline without a campsite and tossing them back in the woods. The reason is because you can't bury them deep enough to prevent critters from digging them up anyways.

I know some will say you're better of sinking fish remains in deep water. I'm simply stating what I've been told by many FS staff as the best option in their opinions. Personally when I catch fish I stop somewhere on the way back to camp to fillet them so that remains can easily be left away from camp and I'm not adding any extra smells in camp by doing the filleting there. All that comes back to camp with me is the clean fillets ready for the pan.
Mad_Angler
distinguished member(1580)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 11:22AM
A1t2o: "...
Speaking of smell, what do you do with uneaten food like fish bones or skin? ...
Not talking about a lot, because I would just dump it well away from camp, but in small quantities is it ok to burn it in a hot fire, stoked just to eliminate any traces? ...
"


We often cook fish on the grate with their skin on. We call if "fish on the half shell". When done, we drop the skin in the fire and burn it.


A1t2o: "...
Even the larger quantities, like if a meal is terrible and no one wants to finish it or if it gets dumped on the ground by accident, I worry that I am basically just laying bait a distance from camp. Can't a bear follow your trail back to camp after being attracted by food scraps? What is the best practice here?"


I have never experienced that. Thinking out loud, I would probably paddle away from camp and deep-six the bad meal. Or I might ziplock it and carry it out. That depends on exactly what it was and how much longer my trip was...
nofish
distinguished member(2774)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 11:25AM
Mad_Angler: "A1t2o: "...
A clean camp is limiting the scent, not eliminating it. Its similar to throwing a party with noise sensitive neighbors, there will be noise, but hopefully you can keep from attracting the attention of people who can make your night miserable. With a bear you just don't want to have scents clearly noticeable where it attracts their attention and they start searching for food in your direction. We aren't trying to prevent nuisance bears from entering our camps, we are preventing bears from becoming nuisance bears in the first place."



I think the party noise is a reasonable analogy. My contention is that the bear is like an EXTREMELY sensitive neighbor. That neighbor is going to hear your party no matter how careful you are.


But luckily, the neighbor is also fearful of conflict so it doesn't come over to complain to often.


To me, things like frying fish or bacon are like a very loud band at a party. You can ask the guests to whisper but that is sorta pointless while the band is playing.


Even if you avoid things like frying fish or making bacon, the folks before you probably did not avoid them."


Its all about risk mitigation. Of course you aren't going to be able to keep every single food smell out of camp but keeping a clean camp is certainly
going to reduce your risk of a bear encounter over someone that leaves food scraps scattered around or that leaves food out for the length of their stay. Think of bear hunting where bait piles are used. Which bait pile do you think is more effective, the big pile of tasty treats casting a large amount of scent to draw bears in from long distances or an old bait pile that has been cleaned up leaving only trace amount of food scent? Sure the bear can probably smell both but one is going to to be more attractive to a bear and draw it in from a longer distance.

Keeping a clean camp also helps with the little critters like mice and squirrels.
A1t2o
distinguished member(609)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 11:50AM
Mad_Angler: "We often cook fish on the grate with their skin on. We call if "fish on the half shell". When done, we drop the skin in the fire and burn it."

This is what I have done before and the main question I was trying to ask. A ton of food to dispose of is not likely, but the skin or spine are fairly common. I prefer to burn things like that, but wasn't sure on how much the burning of remains would be frowned upon.

I also get how you say that frying fish or bacon is going to throw off a lot of scent, but duration is also a factor. Once you are done, the smell should not linger too much. The bear should either lose the trail or lose interest because the scent fades before they get to camp. If you get your food done fairly quickly and cleanly, and keep the camp clean then there shouldn't be fresh scents for them to take interest in.
MikeinMpls
distinguished member (360)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/06/2018 02:18PM
egknuti: "In my opinion bear concerns are overblown, but I do hang my pack nevertheless. Bears are not lurking at every campsite waiting for a moment to steal your pack and most bears want no human contact whatsoever. Most of the trouble I've had is with mice and other vermin. Keeping a clean campsite is important, the only problem is the 20-30 other groups that have camped there before you. Cliff Jacobson recommends stashing your pack well away from camp. However, he has never specified what distance that is. And in some instances that's not possible, especially if your camped on an island. There are places where there is persistent bear problem. The Basswood River, Agnes Lake, and Knife Lake to name a few. Check with the forest service about any bear activity before you leave. I like to hang my pack, but if I can't find a good tree I'll use the stash method. "

I'm with Egknuti on this one. Having tripped twice with Cliff Jacobson, his was the first method I adopted. I often just stash the pack the way Cliff suggests, though it's the squirrels and chipmunks that often find the pack and their way into it, wreaking havoc. At my wife's insistence, however, we occasionally do hang the pack. If we do, I hang it in a tree that isn't the tree 99.5% of the previous campers have used. I also tie a saucepan to the pack and fill it with rocks. That way I can know if it's being messed with. That hasn't happened yet.

I've seen bears while paddling, and have had bears in camp on two occasions (in approximately 40 trips.) Both bears came into camp during daylight hours... one during breakfast (2004, Ram Lake) and one during dinner (1986, Devil's Elbow Lake.) In 2004, the bear was spooked and ran as soon as it discovered our presence. In 1986, I banged pots and pans and it ran off, but hung around the periphery of the camp for a bit. I threw a few rocks and it finally left.

Mike
06/06/2018 06:12PM
Keeping your camp as clean as possible is a start... Any of the precautions of bear resistant containers, hanging or blue barrel stashing. Nothing is perfect, but you don't have that much to worry about. We currently have a problem bear at home. He took a goat off a deck and they could hear it cry as the bear took off with it. DNR said to get rid of it... Got some new hives too. Electric fence helped, but those Russian bees don't mess around.
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2168)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/07/2018 06:15AM
Then there's the obvious step of investing in a can of Bear Spray. If needed, don't forget to make sure any wind is at your back. Otherwise, YOU will eat pepper fog.
I always carry bear spray and have yet to need it. I keep a clean camp and meals simple. (Sorry, Mad_Angler. ;-) I couldn't resist saying it.)
oth
Guest Paddler
 
06/07/2018 02:46PM
I love bacon,peanut butter, honey.......eat what I want. *(Near the firegrate!) He's right: "truly clean camp" is non-existant. Minimalize (seal) smell and stash* (away from firegrate!). No food in tent and hopefully if Yogi visits it will be a short passin' thru. What else can you do? I guess bear spray may let you sleep a little sounder.
gsfisher13
distinguished member(1439)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/07/2018 03:23PM
things you can control: how clean you keep your camp, whether you pick a good tree to hang your food, is there even a good tree available, whether you tether your barrel in a good spot outside of camp.
things you cannot control: did the previous occupants of the campsite do the same? or did they leave garbage around and now there is a nuisance bear in the area that has been humanized.
for a solo trip the easiest way to eliminate risk of things out of your control and thus ruining your trip is a barrel tethered to a tree outside of camp and a clean camp. bear spray on a solo, not a bad idea. weapon to protect yourself, okay but probably not necessary.
all of those are the same questions and reasoning I came to for my very first solo that starts in 13 days. good luck on your trip. be smart, make good choices.
GraniteCliffs
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06/08/2018 01:11PM
I live in the Twin Cities and have two bear vaults if you wanted to borrow one to see what you think before buying. Just let me know. I am on the west side of town. Would just need them back by July 6.
On solos I take one vault and put as much of my food as possible in it. I simply march somewhere back in the woods and set it somewhere. As it empties I put whatever other food I have into it.
billconner
distinguished member(6800)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/08/2018 01:31PM
No sense that menus using dry, freeze dried food and instant food in factory sealed containers isn't less bear risky than fresh food? In BWCAW and Q I have always hung the food back. 5 to 10 minutes at most and kind of a sport or familiar routine I look forward to. But now planning backpacking out west and probably using (borrowed courtesy of a BWCA.COM member) Ursacks. Almost all or all dehydrated, freeze dried, packaged food. (We might screw the pouch by taking some cheese...) Hot water or pot cooking, no frying. But I suspect much more significant bear risk than canoe country.

I liked the Forest Service bear aware page for where we're headed. Especially the "if you're lucky enough to see a bear..." We will have a can of bear spray.
Pilgrimpaddler
member (42)member
 
06/08/2018 01:51PM
GraniteCliffs: "I live in the Twin Cities and have two bear vaults if you wanted to borrow one to see what you think before buying. Just let me know. I am on the west side of town. Would just need them back by July 6.
On solos I take one vault and put as much of my food as possible in it. I simply march somewhere back in the woods and set it somewhere. As it empties I put whatever other food I have into it."


Thanks for the offer - I would take you up on it but I won't be coming out until July 7. I'll probably just hang my food bag from a rodent, er, bear tree and hope for the best.
gsfisher13
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06/11/2018 12:10AM
If you are going near Shell or Polly you may want to rethink the hanging food pack as nuisance bears unafraid of people are in the area.
 
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