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mastertangler
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06/23/2018 04:31PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Should I add or subtract? Odd that I am heavy on self improvement books and light on history, which is usually my go-to. Throw in that I have two works of fiction and I am really getting outside my comfort zone ("life is too short to read fiction")

1) Khe Sanh, Seige in the clouds
2) As a man thinketh
3) History of wolves
4) The last kind words Saloon
5) 12 rules for life (condensed version)

Will I finish them? Maybe, maybe not. But running out is unthinkable. The Nook is ideal for tripping. Five books on one tiny tablet, nice!
 
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mschi772
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06/23/2018 04:52PM  
How about Twain's "What is Man?" That's kind of a historic self-improvement text....kinda.
 
06/23/2018 08:11PM  
I have always enjoyed Stephen Ambrose books. Another go to is the journals of Lewis and Clark. Nothing wrong with a little fictional escapism. No matter what, enjoy the books an have a great trip!
 
06/23/2018 08:23PM  
As A Man Thinketh is timeless wisdom. It’s short but every paragraph is powerful.

I know you like historic military books and I have a recommendation for you. Here's one that I couldn't put down. By Honor Bound

Bfurlow, I agree about Stephen Ambrose. I've read many by him and every one has been fantastic.



 
mastertangler
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06/24/2018 07:38AM  
mschi772: "How about Twain's "What is Man?" That's kind of a historic self-improvement text....kinda."


Kinda? I take it you are playing along with Twains sarcastic wit? i am not so certain I would be "improved" after reading his take. Entertained perhaps ;-)

Thanks Tom......we are like minded in some respects. Glad to hear "As a man thinketh" is powerful. I will definitely pick your choice (By Honor Bound) as we have been enthusiastic in the past about a few shared reads.

Yes bfurlow Ambrose is hard to beat. I find his research reliable and exhaustive and he is eminently readable which is very important in a historical writer. Some history books can be like wading through wet cement. Others, like Ambrose's works, can be far more exciting than anything that people "make up".

FWIW I was not especially happy with the Lewis and Clark read although I did glean some very valuable nuggets. What especially stood out to me was their descriptions of the various indigenous (indian tribes) peoples and how vastly different each tribe was. Some were described as noble, clean and honest and worthy of admiration. Others, were polar opposites and filthy, cruel and thieves. That goes a long way to explaining the extreme complexity of the politics and happenings between whites and Indians over the many years. There was no constant with the Indian societies and the extreme variables made for impossible lasting and enduring relationships.



 
06/24/2018 09:48AM  
mastertangler: "
That goes a long way to explaining the extreme complexity of the politics and happenings between whites and Indians over the many years. There was no constant with the Indian societies and the extreme variables made for impossible lasting and enduring relationships.
"


Well, that and the official policy of the US government was basically genocide.
 
mastertangler
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06/24/2018 03:26PM  
Banksiana: "
mastertangler: "
That goes a long way to explaining the extreme complexity of the politics and happenings between whites and Indians over the many years. There was no constant with the Indian societies and the extreme variables made for impossible lasting and enduring relationships.
"



Well, that and the official policy of the US government was basically genocide."


It is far more complicated than that despite the political correct narrative that accademia and Hollywood would have you believe. There was much peaceable and cooperative times during the hundreds of years of interactions.

The problem that the whites had with the Indians was hugely cultural. The Indians largely considered attaining wealth (property and people) through violence and force entirely appropriate and was in fact just a way of life. Add in that their enemy was tortured and humiliated in the most barbaric and egregious way possible the concept of a lasting peace with people of European descent was doomed from the start. It was accepted wisdom during the most tumultuous times to kill oneself instead of be taken prisoner. Being burned at the stake was a merciful end to ones ordeal as it was considered "sport" amongst some tribes and a cause for an evenings celebration to have a prisoner.

I am not exonerating all the whites by any measure and their manipulative desire for "more" often put them at odds with the native Americans. unfortunately peaceable Indians were often lumped together with the tribes which murdered, raped, burnt and stole. Thus the blood lust of the white public which had had enough and indeed the saying that " any dead Indian was a good Indian" came into public discourse.

There is a great deal of complexity involved and is far more complicated than what many have been led to believe. Yes there was the noble red man who lived in harmony with nature and their fellows but there was also the absolute worst of humanity amongst them as well. That is the truth and all it takes is a bit of research to arrive at the truth. I have done a considerable amount of reading on this subject and while certainly not an authority neither am I ignorant.
 
06/24/2018 07:23PM  
mastertangler:
FWIW I was not especially happy with the Lewis and Clark read although I did glean some very valuable nuggets. What especially stood out to me was their descriptions of the various indigenous (indian tribes) peoples and how vastly different each tribe was. Some were described as noble, clean and honest and worthy of admiration. Others, were polar opposites and filthy, cruel and thieves. That goes a long way to explaining the extreme complexity of the politics and happenings between whites and Indians over the many years. There was no constant with the Indian societies and the extreme variables made for impossible lasting and enduring relationships.
"


Yes, there were some difficult parts of the journals to get through. I was just coming off Undaunted Courage by Ambrose so was probably more forgiving. From what little research I have done, there are a few different versions of the journals. Depending on who edited them may or may not make them more readable. I agree about the description of the different tribes and societies - very interesting to read.
 
DrBobDg
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06/24/2018 09:45PM  
bfurlow: "I have always enjoyed Stephen Ambrose books. Another go to is the journals of Lewis and Clark. Nothing wrong with a little fictional escapism. No matter what, enjoy the books an have a great trip!"


We have the audio version on Lewis and Clark...Ambrose. Have listened to it several times on the way to see our son in Idaho every summer. It is still and amazing story. Sad that Lewis ended up the way he did. Those guys used a lot of mercury and other nasty compounds that did way bad things to a person...

dr bob
 
06/24/2018 10:30PM  
mastertangler

It is far more complicated than that despite the political correct narrative that accademia and Hollywood would have you believe. There was much peaceable and cooperative times during the hundreds of years of interactions.

"


It's not about "political correctness" or "Hollywood"; it's a matter of demographics. An indigenous population numbering in the tens of millions is reduced to a couple hundred thousand over the course of a few generations that's the definition of genocide.
 
carmike
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06/25/2018 06:17AM  
I also bring waaaay too much reading material, and I'm too stubborn to get one of those fancy glowing contraptions, so it's old-fashioned books for me.

Have you ever read Young Men and Fire by Norman Maclean? If not, it's one of my all-time favorites...if you're looking for Book #6, you can give it a try. :)
 
06/25/2018 07:23AM  
If in St. Louis, the Lewis and Clark Museum in St Charles is worth a visit. Is located across the Missouri River from St. Louis County about 5 minutes from I-70. As you may know, the expedition left from St. Louis. While many of the artifacts are duplicates, you can easily spend an hour there or more if you are interested in reading in more detail than I. The cost is reasonable and around $6.00 five years or so ago as I recall.
 
06/25/2018 07:34AM  
Banksiana: "
mastertangler


It is far more complicated than that despite the political correct narrative that accademia and Hollywood would have you believe. There was much peaceable and cooperative times during the hundreds of years of interactions.


"



It's not about "political correctness" or "Hollywood"; it's a matter of demographics. An indigenous population numbering in the tens of millions is reduced to a couple hundred thousand over the course of a few generations that's the definition of genocide."


Technically you are both right. Genocide is the intentional action of trying to destroy a people. The biggest factor in Native deaths was disease brought to North America by Europeans (rarely this was used for Genocide but usually not) I am not aware of a time that this was the official policy of the United States although it did occur unofficially intermittentently through settlers or Military actions—-so that counts. There were many times of peace and cooperation as well. The biggest shameful actions were U.S. behavior in treaties, and treatment on reservations. The Indian Removal act prosecuted by Jackson and Van Buren could be argued as intentional government genoside even if it wasn’t the goal.

Being an Indian agent was considered one of the best jobs one could be appointment to in order to get rich. Most of the tax payer money would be siphoned off to personal accounts leaving Natives starving, no meds, and little to save them from exposure. General/President Grant tried to stop this (even appointed a Native American to his cabinet and fired every Indian agent accused of corruption) but the political corruption of the time stopped him from making any lasting changes.

As an example--Corrupt Indian agents led to the Sioux revolt in MN during the Civil War. But during that revolt the atrocities committed by Natives against civilians were so shocking they were almost completely removed from MN post war by even citizens who previously were friendly and supportive prior to war/revolt. No one was right, there was plenty of wrong to go around...it was very complicated. That is just an example...I am still ashamed as an American for the overall treatment of Natives but it was a very complicated situation. Most things are.

T
 
mastertangler
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06/25/2018 04:46PM  
Awesome post timatkn.

We will have to disagree banksalna. You seem to have bought into the Hollywood version that the whites were wholly to blame and the noble red man is just a victim. Believe what you want.....plenty of bad behavior on both sides.

Young men and fire? Norman Maclean? Famous fiction writer? Alrighty then Carmike.......as soon as I finish my Stella and Bourbon street chicken and shrimp I'm off to Barnes and nobles to download Toms suggestion and now yours. You should seriously look into the Nook. Small, lightweight by comparison and the books are much cheaper. It is so fun to crawl into the bag at night and turn the device on. It provides a cheery little glow, no headlamp needed (just reader glasses ;-)
 
06/26/2018 12:44AM  
 
06/26/2018 08:02PM  
Banksiana: ""


:)

 
06/26/2018 08:07PM  
MT here is an interview with Mike Thornton. He's one of 2 SEAL's involved in By Honor Bound. I listen to Jocko's podcast. Really great stuff here. They go over the book and Mike's story. A true hero. This guy is legendary among the SEALs.

Jocko Willink with Mike Thornton

 
mastertangler
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06/27/2018 07:41AM  
TomT: "MT here is an interview with Mike Thornton. He's one of 2 SEAL's involved in By Honor Bound. I listen to Jocko's podcast. Really great stuff here. They go over the book and Mike's story. A true hero. This guy is legendary among the SEALs.


Jocko Willink with Mike Thornton


"


No can do Tom. Did you watch the trailer for the Revennant movie? If you watched the trailer you seen all the highlights of the movie. I prefer to go in not knowing, much better. I will probably listen to the interview after I read the book. I would of even preferred not to know it was about 2 navy seals.

I have no clue what Carmikes book is about. But I like Carmike and trust his opinion so I will give it a go.

The self improvement books might have to wait. Perhaps there is a reason I haven't picked those up much in the past. The most difficult self improvement book I have ever read is the Bible which challenges me to be something other than that which comes naturally to me.
 
06/27/2018 06:14PM  
mastertangler: "
TomT: "MT here is an interview with Mike Thornton. He's one of 2 SEAL's involved in By Honor Bound. I listen to Jocko's podcast. Really great stuff here. They go over the book and Mike's story. A true hero. This guy is legendary among the SEALs.
Jocko Willink with Mike Thornton
"


No can do Tom. Did you watch the trailer for the Revennant movie? If you watched the trailer you seen all the highlights of the movie. I prefer to go in not knowing, much better. I will probably listen to the interview after I read the book. I would of even preferred not to know it was about 2 navy seals.
"


I totally get that. The book is actually two stories. Do you remember a movie called "Bat 21" with Gene Hackman and Danny Glover? It's a true story of a pilot shot down behind enemy lines. Well, the first story in the book tells this story from the ground perspective of the rescue attempts. The courage is off the charts here.

The 2nd story is is even more courageous. But this time gets the protagonists sold out by a coward. I'm pretty sure Hollywood will get a hold of this book soon.

 
Abbey
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06/27/2018 07:27PM  
“America and Americans” by John Steinbeck. I read it about a decade ago and am re-reading it now. Published in 1966, but very little of it is dated. Amazing how well he described the paradox of Americans.
 
06/27/2018 10:02PM  
If you want to really wallow in a long history book, check out From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun. Covers Western civilization from 1500 to about the year 2000. Been a while since I read it, but very comprehensive. Not sure if there is a political bent there or not as it has been close to 15 year since I picked it up. Either way, a fascinating read and I think that you would like it regardless considering your ability to look at things from both sides of the aisle. If you pick up the paperback it might add a couple lbs to your pack though. :)
 
mastertangler
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06/28/2018 10:11AM  
bfurlow: "If you want to really wallow in a long history book, check out From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun. Covers Western civilization from 1500 to about the year 2000. Been a while since I read it, but very comprehensive. Not sure if there is a political bent there or not as it has been close to 15 year since I picked it up. Either way, a fascinating read and I think that you would like it regardless considering your ability to look at things from both sides of the aisle. If you pick up the paperback it might add a couple lbs to your pack though. :)"


Ugh! I have learned the hard way I cannot get through really long history books even though I love history. My last attempt was a biography on Nelson (British naval commander) and the used book was a deal but quite thick. I got 3/4 of the way through and got busy. What would be cool would be to get your suggestion on audio since I drive a lot. I have always been tempted to read "The rise and fall of the Roman Empire" buts its so long. Perhaps another good audio choice.

Speaking of audio books, I never tire of listening to "Sea of Thunder" which is about the naval battle in the Pacific against the Japanese. Riveting stuff which alternates between U.S. and Japan including the cast of players, truly fascinating and better than what anybody could "make up" (fiction > blah).
 
06/28/2018 10:15AM  
bfurlow: "If you want to really wallow in a long history book, check out From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun. Covers Western civilization from 1500 to about the year 2000. Been a while since I read it, but very comprehensive. Not sure if there is a political bent there or not as it has been close to 15 year since I picked it up. Either way, a fascinating read and I think that you would like it regardless considering your ability to look at things from both sides of the aisle. If you pick up the paperback it might add a couple lbs to your pack though. :)"


“Sapiens” is similar but goes back to man’s beginning. Highly not recommended for MT. :). But an excellent book.
 
mastertangler
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06/28/2018 10:21AM  
TomT: "
bfurlow: "If you want to really wallow in a long history book, check out From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun. Covers Western civilization from 1500 to about the year 2000. Been a while since I read it, but very comprehensive. Not sure if there is a political bent there or not as it has been close to 15 year since I picked it up. Either way, a fascinating read and I think that you would like it regardless considering your ability to look at things from both sides of the aisle. If you pick up the paperback it might add a couple lbs to your pack though. :)"



“Sapient” is similar but goes back to man’s beginning. Highly not recommended for MT. :). But an excellent book. "


"Sapient"?".........Yup you are probably right Tom since I generally despise fiction ;-)

Actually one of the best historically accurate books we have of olden days is the Bible. Funny how we accept other historical accounts of bygone days which have far less substantiation and yet claim the Bible is just "fiction" despite all the evidence to the contrary. Regardless of your theology and wether you believe in God or not, the scriptures are quite historically accurate.
 
06/28/2018 01:41PM  
mastertangler: "Actually one of the best historically accurate books we have of olden days is the Bible. Funny how we accept other historical accounts of bygone days which have far less substantiation and yet claim the Bible is just "fiction" despite all the evidence to the contrary. Regardless of your theology and wether you believe in God or not, the scriptures are quite historically accurate. "


Depends on your standards of "historical accuracy". To quote Wikipedia:
"Archaeological discoveries since the 19th century are open to interpretation, but broadly speaking they lend support to few of the Old Testament's historical narratives and offer evidence to challenge others
 
06/28/2018 06:54PM  
mastertangler: "
TomT: "
bfurlow: "If you want to really wallow in a long history book, check out From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun. Covers Western civilization from 1500 to about the year 2000. Been a while since I read it, but very comprehensive. Not sure if there is a political bent there or not as it has been close to 15 year since I picked it up. Either way, a fascinating read and I think that you would like it regardless considering your ability to look at things from both sides of the aisle. If you pick up the paperback it might add a couple lbs to your pack though. :)"


“Sapient” is similar but goes back to man’s beginning. Highly not recommended for MT. :). But an excellent book. "


"Sapient"?".........Yup you are probably right Tom since I generally despise fiction ;-)

Actually one of the best historically accurate books we have of olden days is the Bible. Funny how we accept other historical accounts of bygone days which have far less substantiation and yet claim the Bible is just "fiction" despite all the evidence to the contrary. Regardless of your theology and wether you believe in God or not, the scriptures are quite historically accurate. "


Oooh... embarrassing typo discovered hours after posting. The book is "Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari. I love this audiobook.

Here are some reviews.
“Sapiens tackles the biggest questions of history and of the modern world, and it is written in unforgettably vivid language.” (Jared Diamond, Pulitzer Prize-winning author of Guns, Germs, and Steel, Collapse, and The World until Yesterday)

“Sapiens is learned, thought-provoking and crisply written…. Fascinating.” (Wall Street Journal)

“In Sapiens, Harari delves deep into our history as a species to help us understand who we are and what made us this way. An engrossing read.” (Dan Ariely, New York Times Bestselling author of Predictably Irrational, The Upside of Irrationality, and The Honest Truth About Dishonesty)

“Yuval Noah Harari’s celebrated Sapiens does for human evolution what Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time did for physics.… He does a superb job of outlining our slow emergence and eventual domination of the planet.” (Forbes)

“[I]nteresting and provocative…It gives you a sense of perspective on how briefly we’ve been on this earth, how short things like agriculture and science have been around, and why it makes sense for us to not take them for granted.” (President Barack Obama)

“I would recommend this book to anyone interested in a fun, engaging look at early human history…you’ll have a hard time putting it down.” (Bill Gates)

“Thank God someone finally wrote [this] exact book.” (Sebastian Junger)

“Sapiens takes readers on a sweeping tour of the history of our species…. Harari’s formidable intellect sheds light on the biggest breakthroughs in the human story…important reading for serious-minded, self-reflective sapiens.” (Washington Post)

“It is one of the best accounts by a Homo sapiens of the unlikely story of our violent, accomplished species.…It is one hell of a story. And it has seldom been told better…. Compulsively readable and impossibly learned.” (Michael Gerson, Washington Post)

“This was the most surprising and thought-provoking book I read this year.” (Atlantic.com)
 
carmike
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06/28/2018 09:00PM  
mastertangler: "


Young men and fire? Norman Maclean? Famous fiction writer? Alrighty then Carmike.......as soon as I finish my Stella and Bourbon street chicken and shrimp I'm off to Barnes and nobles to download Toms suggestion and now yours. You should seriously look into the Nook. Small, lightweight by comparison and the books are much cheaper. It is so fun to crawl into the bag at night and turn the device on. It provides a cheery little glow, no headlamp needed (just reader glasses ;-) "


I know, I know...the Nook (and other tablets) are pretty nice, and are pretty convenient for all sorts of things, including canoe travel. Amazing battery life, light weight, etc. Maybe one day (soon).

Yep, it's the same guy who wrote A River Runs Through It. I very much hope you enjoy the read, and I suspect you will.
 
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