Last trip in the BWCA my pack proved to be a bit small, not suited to portaging, and was starting to fall apart. So the wife is buying me a new one for my birthday. The old one was an internal frame backpacking pack. Now, after hearing good things about the CCS gear and the cost comparison to Duluth Packs, I am thinking I want to get a CCS Hybrid pack. Reason for the hybrid is because I want the belt strap and the traditional packs don't seem to have one.

First I want to confirm that these are good packs that will last. I haven't anything but positive about Dan's gear, but double checking to make sure I'm picking the right ones seems like a good idea.

I also was looking for suggestions on the size too. Personally I think that the Pioneer at 4700 cu in is about right for me, but I have kids and in a few years I'll be bringing my oldest in too. Should I go with the guide at 5700 cu in? Being able to haul his gear sounds like a good idea, or my daughter's when she gets old enough too.

Lastly, color preference? What's the popular color to have? Anyone have a picture of what an olive pack looks like? I've gone back and forth on almost all the options.

I don't have any recommendation for color, but I can't say enough good things about CCS Hybrid packs.

As to size, I own both a Pioneer and a Guide pack. The Guide is HUGE! It proved to be too big for my two person trips, so I mostly use the Pioneer pack. If you were hauling for two adults and two kids, the Guide would be good.

awbrown: "If you were hauling for two adults and two kids, the Guide would be good.
"

So if we double portage and each adult carries their own gear, then the Guide is probably too big? The biggest thing I'm worried about is sleeping bags, but by the time my daughter is old enough then my son should be able to carry a small pack of his own. Unless he carries the day pack with our tackle. Ugh, too many variables when you start trying to plan for kids. The only reason I wouldn't just play it safe and go for the Guide is if it would be a hindrance for when I trip without then or when they carry their own gear.

I have the Guide and the Bushcrafter in matching olive (good color a slightly shiny and slightly lighter version of the boy scout olive). Superb gear. The compression straps are very effective in making the pack smaller if that helps in your decision. The Guide is a big pack but within reason.

Banksiana: "The compression straps are very effective in making the pack smaller if that helps in your decision."

Actually that really does. I hadn't really noticed them in the pictures before since it is black on black, but with how many there are it should be pretty easy to shrink it down quite a bit.

It anyone has pictures of the pack in olive that would be great. I like the idea of it not standing out too much but I wasn't that big a fan of the straight green. Red seems fun bit probably too flashy. Blue seems like the option to go to if nothing else fits.

Here you go!

Banksiana: "Here you go! "

Thank you very much. I had seen the junior pack on their site and it looked more washed out and tan than olive so I was a bit put off by that color, this one is much nicer than what I had seen before.

It's a really nice color, fades nicely into the scenery- which can be a negative thing if you have space cadets in your crew.

I have been really happy with my Pioneer. Bigger would be too tight a fit in my canoe.

Mine is brown, preferring something to blend in to enviroment but have way too much green and black gear. I liked blue but, I hear that color attracts mosquitoes. Thought about red but imagined it fading to pink. My next one will be Yellow- Saffron because it looks sooo happy.

The Guide is a huge pack, too big for me.
The Explorer pack would be a great size for kids and smaller framed individuals. Start them off with light bulky gear (sleeping bags, etc.) and transition to heavier gear as they grow.
The Pioneer pack is my Goldilocks pack. That's why I have two and it goes on every trip. I love the green and equally love the blue. You can't go wrong with the Pioneer.

I have a Bushcrafter in the olive color. I was worried I might not like the color from website pics but loved it when I received the pack. Haven’t had a chance to use it in BWCA yet(come on September!) but have loaded it and walked with it. Very comfortable and well built. Whatever pack you get from Dan I’m sure you’ll be more than happy with it.

I got a Pioneer in red this last year. I've only used it on one trip, but I love it. I use the Pioneer and a SealLine 115L bag. If I were only going to have one pack, I'd get the Guide pack. They do have great compression capability. I really like the size of the Pioneer but if I were looking to use just one pack, the Guide would be more flexible.

Love my red pioneer. About 5 years now. Works well with grey deluxe food pack. I do prefer them to stand out rather then blend in.

Love my red pioneer. About 5 years now. Works well with grey deluxe food pack. I do prefer them to stand out rather then blend in.

I have a Guide and a Pioneer, both in blue. They're hard to tell apart when loaded sanely; the Guide is huge, but I generally load it to about the same size as the Pioneer, and cinch its straps down to keep it smaller. I got the Pioneer this year because I wanted two packs and couldn't imagine another pack as giant as the Guide, but they weigh about the same and as I noted, you can tighten up the Guide to restrict it.

Regarding colors, I got the Guide in blue because I liked the color but planned on getting the Pioneer in a different color, probably green. Unfortunately only blue and red were in stock, and my tent is red so I didn't want a red pack. So they're both blue, which does make it hard to tell them apart.

Regarding kids, my middle school daughter carries either pack just fine fully loaded on mile long portages, so don't underestimate kids' ability to carry; just build them up slowly. When she was a preschooler she carried about five pounds when we went camping, but she always had a pack and knew it was her responsibility.

I have a red Explorer, red Pioneer, red Bushcrafter, and a blue Quad Pocket Barrel harness. I also have a Lean 3+, a 10 x 14 Tundra tarp 1.1 oz., and 10 x 12 1.9 oz. Tundra tarp, all in green. I have many various colored stuff sacks, stake bags, pole bags, barrel bags, utensil roll, map cases, bow bag, thwart bag, and a seat cushion. I almost forgot my two orange ridgeline bags. My brother has a blue Guide and it's huge.

I only want to buy something once, so I choose CCS.

Duluth Pack all the way. Yeah, they are expensive but there's a reason for that. They last forever and anything that breaks, like a seam or a zipper, they fix free of charge. If you break it, or a bear bites it, their repair costs are negligible. Canvas drys quickly. The packs can hold an immense amount of items. They will last longer than you will and your children will fight over who gets your cool Duluth Pack.

We have two Pioneer packs - one red and one saffron yellow. We wanted bright colors so they wont get left behind and make for more colorful pictures. You cant go wrong with either pack.

Remember, the bigger the pack, the more you can put in it, and the heavier it gets!

Kids should carry at least a small pack with light stuff, like their clothes, that they are responsible for. Increase the load if they are capable and willing.

I have the CCS Pioneer Hybrid Pack in brown, blue and red. Love them! As previously stated they are the perfect size to carry a lot of gear but not too much gear and they fit in the canoe pretty well for easier loading and unloading at the portages. Comfortable as heck to carry and all the handle straps in well thought out locations makes the lifting onto your back ‘gymnastics’ much easier.

I read about blue gear and clothing attracting bugs more than other colors but I have not noticed it myself. My tripping partners tend to pick their favorite packs on portages more on weight than color!

If I had to pick one I would go with the red one cuz everyone knows red ones are faster!! And it’s a really nice deep red. I considered the saffron too but I was concerned it would show the dirt too much.

Bushcrafter in Olive

I own several CCS products, including a Pioneer (blue) and an Explorer (red) pack. I picked the colors because they were what Dan had in stock at the time. The colors are nice and haven't faded much. I have three of the dark green barrel packs and it's a nice color as well.

As for the size, as someone else said, if you have the space, you'll use it, so I always order a slightly smaller pack than I want, that way I'm forced to trim weight. But Dan has earned all of my business because of the quality of his products and the service he has offered over the years.

For what it's worth, Dan does make a hybrid pack for youth (the Adventurer), and I think it only comes in blue. The question is whether or not you want to spend $169 for something your daughter will outgrow. My kids are 10 and 12 and I've given it some serious thought, I just can't justify the money...for now.

I have the pioneer in yellow because I like yellow. There have been times I would like it to be a bit bigger but not usually. Love the way it carries. Love the belt. Easy in the boat and easy out. Very nice width during the carry. Does not want to flop to the side like beltless packs. I often find myself going under or over trees and my Pioneer stays in place.

Thanks for all the input so far. I was decided on the Guide until I noticed that the size in cubic inches compared to the Duluth Pack that my buddy has does not compare directly. I hadn't realized that the Duluth Packs are calculated to include the bulging out and that the CCS packs weren't. Not sure how this would translate to useable volume but I think the Pioneer will be smaller but close enough to my buddy's #4 Duluth Pack.

So I think I'm getting the Pioneer in Olive. Red would be nice but it is a little flashy.

There has been a TON of threads on this issue. Duluth packs are tough no doubt, that's where it ends. No they do not dry well, absolutely not, it is canvas. It takes an extremely long time to dry wet canvas. DPs ride low on the back, use a tump line which is horrible on your neck, do not have a hip belt, top closure draw string, external loops for stuff, external zipper to access things when secured, external grab handles, built in foam back padding, are very heavy when dry and triple the weight when wet and are roughly double the price they should be. Yes I am a bit slanted. I own 4 DPs and do love them and will have them forever and pass them down. Aesthetically they are old school looking cool. This year I bought 2 CCS packs and have been on 2 trips. They have everything I listed above. Night and day. Better pack, better price, better life. Both packs haul stuff, but that's the only similarity.

I can confirm that the Pioneer is close to the #4 Kondos pack, perhaps holds a little more if not just by virtue of the pockets and such - which I love since I'm an EVERYTHING in the packs for portage person.

A few years ago Dan Cooke posted about the varying methods the different pack manufacturers use to calculate volume and they make a big difference in how the pack's volume is advertised ( pack volume thread ). I think for most people the Pioneer is the size that is most practical. Can't say enough good about them.

There are three packs in this photo. The closest to the bow is my son in laws #3 standard CCS pack in green. This contains all his gear including his clothing, sleeping bag and sleeping pad. Next is my CCS Guide Hybrid Pack in blue with a red CCS pole bag under the side straps. This contains all my gear including sleeping bag, sleeping pad and clothing. It also contains the tent and tarp, stake bag, rope bag, first aid kit, and other assorted items. Last is my CCS 60 liter Barrel Pack in green. This contains all our food and cooking gear.

The canoe is a Nova Craft 16 ft. Prospector.

I could have easily carried all the son in laws pack contents in the Guide pack, but his preference was to keep his gear separated on this trip. We double portaged, so the first time over he carried the canoe and I took the Guide. The second trip, he carried his pack and I carried the 60 liter barrel pack.

Jezbo: "There has been a TON of threads on this issue. Duluth packs are tough no doubt, that's where it ends. No they do not dry well, absolutely not, it is canvas. It takes an extremely long time to dry wet canvas. DPs ride low on the back, use a tump line which is horrible on your neck, do not have a hip belt, top closure draw string, external loops for stuff, external zipper to access things when secured, external grab handles, built in foam back padding, are very heavy when dry and triple the weight when wet and are roughly double the price they should be. Yes I am a bit slanted. I own 4 DPs and do love them and will have them forever and pass them down. Aesthetically they are old school looking cool. This year I bought 2 CCS packs and have been on 2 trips. They have everything I listed above. Night and day. Better pack, better price, better life. Both packs haul stuff, but that's the only similarity. "

I mean, I guess you say in your response that you are "slanted" toward the CCS packs, but can we try not to spread misinformation by mere conjecture? Canvas in fact does dry well. The material contains very little space for water to actually absorb and so it is less like a sponge than you would think. In terms of tumplines, I have never used one. They are 100% optional and I agree that they aren't the best thing for your neck. Again, totally optional. Duluth Packs ride low on your back because that's how they are designed -- so you can carry a pack AND a canoe. No need to knock the Duluth Packs just because you don't find that feature useful. Plenty of people do! All of the features that you mention in terms of foam back, hip belt, draw string, etc., aren't always seen as advantageous by other paddlers. If you pack differently, those features are unneeded.

What really got me about your post was the "triple the weight when wet" and double the price. Absolutely untrue that Duluth Packs are triple the weight when wet, and in terms of price, it's all relative. You buy a CCS pack, and it might last X number of years. You buy a Duluth Pack, that thing will outlive you.

Note: I am slanted.

Why Does Cotton Absorb So Much Water?

Waxed cotton I suspect will absorb far less as the spaces are taken up with the wax.

Imm nylon water absorbtion

Immerse a nylon pack and a canvas pack, and I have seen which adds more water weight and which dries faster.

A properly designed nylon canoe pack allows a person to both carry a pack and portage a canoe. I have done so and I know of many others who have done so.

I started out repairing Cotton Canvas Canoe Packs with Leather straps, and used them extensively from the Late 60's till I made my own nylon packs. I am quite familiar with them. The list of Features / benefits are subjective to what a person values, they are never absolute truths as we all have different values. The Patina a cotton canvas pack takes and the smell it develops will forever remind me of wonderful times in the BWCA and other watersheds. May we all enjoy the BWCAW the length of our days.

I'm not "slanted" I am sold on the CCS packs. I have owned and used DPs for 25 years camping and found them very useful and a great pack all around.

I don't care what you tell me about canvas drying well, you get a DP soaked and they take a very long time to dry out. Why do people then not use canvas pants camping and as rain gear? Because it is heavy, soaks up water and holds onto it WAY longer than newer materials like a CCS pack, that is all I am saying.

CCS packs sit supported on your hips distributing the weight and actually have cinch straps to pull the pack closer to your center. DPs sit very low on your lower back, ride away from your center and this will focus the weight of the pack onto your shoulders and lower back and forces people to lean forward thus causing more low back stress, this is what happens.

I loaded the Pioneer I just bought and maxed it out to fill every inch of it and I can carry a canoe with total ease, clears the pads perfectly.

DPs are overpriced. They have doubled in price in 10 years, explain to me how a box end style #4 camo can cost $425, that mark up is insane. I am not knocking DPs. I am just explaining that, after 75 years, there is something lighter, more comfortable, just as durable, way cheaper, and just better. This is my opinion. I have several DPs and love them. Comes down to a choice of what you want.

This is the equivalent of portaging in a canvas tent vs modern synthetic or preferring to deer hunt with a 100 year old musket vs a modern rifle.... ummm nope.

Just got back from a week long trip with 12 year old son and 16 year old daughter yesterday. I purchased a CCS Pioneer Pack for each of them about a month ago, and they used them on this trip.

I think they were great. Kids were able to carry more weight comfortably than I thought they'd be able to, and there was still room in the packs to put more gear. I'm a fan.

johndku: "Just got back from a week long trip with 12 year old son and 16 year old daughter yesterday. I purchased a CCS Pioneer Pack for each of them about a month ago, and they used them on this trip.


I think they were great. Kids were able to carry more weight comfortably than I thought they'd be able to, and there was still room in the packs to put more gear. I'm a fan."

Cool! Those packs will certainly serve them as long as they continue canoe tripping. I expect their CCS Packs will become heritage pieces like the Duluth Packs of earlier generations.

I have a Pioneer, and a Rucksack (which I use for SHT hiking trips).

Love CCS packs.

I have 2 Pioneers and 2 guides, very nice packs, wouldn’t want anything else.... well maybe a couple of explorers to fill the gap between the pioneers and my rucks :)

I have a Hybrid Explorer in Red and a Hybrid Guide in Blue. I've always gone north with a partner and the Explorer has always been my pack for all the soft goods...and it has never been too large. All my trips are in early spring or later in the fall, when cold weather can occur, so maybe I pack more clothes than most? But the Explorer is always full with two sleeping bags, 2 pads, tent, CCS 10x12 tarp, hammock, 2 20L soft drybags full of clothes, raingear, grill, saw, books, etc... I've been up there 7 times with my daughter aged 16/now 22. All our kitchen gear and food is in a CCS quad pocket 60L barrel pack in blue, with three CCS bucket bags for B/L/D, stove, dishes, utensils, pots/pans, fuel, water filter, and other "hard" stuff. It is a system that works great for us. We use solo canoes and portage twice. She carries the packs and I carry the canoes. Our trips have been 9-11 days. Going to Woodland Caribou for 14 next spring. The 60L barrel will be PACKED tight for us with 14 days worth of food.

I got the Guide thinking I could use it going solo...but never have. Not sure I could fit everything in that pack, as I would continue to portage twice. My canoes are Kruger Sea Winds at 55 pounds, think I will stick to portaging twice!

Love the CCS gear, obviously.
Joe

Anything CCS that I have bought is outstanding, and extremely well-built. I have two tarps, 2 packs, a small zip bag, and more. I have both the Pioneer and the Guide. Which one depends on the gear you bring and how you pack. The Guide is large, but sometimes that extra room is good. If you solo at all, the Guide may be too large for most solo canoes.

As far as color, I would get a color that stands out. If you need help, or need to be found, a bright color pack will help. And if you ever do trips in a more remote, truer wilderness setting than the BWCAW, then this becomes more important. I prefer the red, but the yellow is good too. Red can hide more stains.

Cannot go wrong with CCS.

We have three CCS packs - a Guide (red), a Pioneer (olive), and a barrel pack (blue). All are extremely high quality. The barrel pack was bought from Piragis in their used gear sale and it looked like it was brand new. You cannot go wrong with CCS gear!

We also have one of Dan's tarps which really makes BWCA camping a pleasure. I would much rather be under a tarp when it is raining than in the tent.

Mike

I got my packs mixed up...
My Guide is my big pack, and it is red. I use it all the time.
My Explorer is blue, a smaller pack, that is the one that I've never used yet. If I'm not mistaken, again, My Explorer pack is marked Bell Canoes, I guess they sold CCS gear for awhile.

Joe

Surprised this thread is still going. I guess I'm not the only one who had the hybrid packs catch their eye.

Does anyone use a plastic liner on these? How about a suggestion on where to get one to keep everything somewhat waterproof? A recent dip in the lake makes me think that dry bags for my clothes and sleeping bag might not be enough.

Absolutely, I use a heavy "contractors" trash bag in my Hybrid packs.

When I first started tripping, I used a PVC roll top backpack (Cabelas Boundary Waters pack) and the whole time, couldn't see how a Duluth pack with a liner would be better. I read Cliff Jacobson's book and he started to convince me that a heavy duty pack with a liner is the way to go. Once I got a Hybrid pack with a liner, I realized that setup is a whole lot better than a PVC pack. It is really no hassle at all to use a liner. I've never had gear get wet inside the pack in a dozen trips.

Dan will throw a plastic bag liner or two in with the pack purchase for a few bucks. All the gear stores will sell them too. They last much, much longer than you think. Or you can buy a roll of big contractors trashbags at a home improvement store. Kinda a waste, as only a couple will last you forever. I think the liner in my pack lasted 8 trips before I decided to drop a new one in there.

The olive Bushcrafter pack that Dooger posted a photo of looks like something I would be interested in.

I used the heavy plastic bags as liners for my CCS packs for quite a while and they worked well. Last year I read a Gear Forum post about the Sea-to-Summit silnylon pack liners and switched to those this year. You need to be more careful loading things that might puncture the liner but they are a lot lighter. (I am an admitted gram/ounce counter and subscribe to the “backpacking with a canoe” school on gear.) They are more expensive as the lighter gear typically runs. The small size (30L iirc) fits the CCS Rucksack well and the medium (50L) fits the CCS Hydrid Pioneer. It will take another season or two of trips to see if they last longer than the plastic bags and really justify the price difference for the weight savings but so far I am very happy with them.

I have used 6 mil asbestos bags for years and they work very well. This year I used a Dynema dry bag for my sleeping bag and pad, another for my clothes and personal items and a third for our food. Saved a little weight and I was sure the critical stuff stayed dry. For what it is worth, you can get 6mil bags in yellow. Keeps you from staring into the black hole for that little piece of gear.