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joewildlife
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09/25/2018 09:01PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Help me think this through.

Options: Optimus Nova white gas, two 20oz (?) bottles
vs
Jetboil and two regular top of butane cannister stoves, with two of the extra large cans.

Weight and bulk ARE an issue. The 60L barrel pack is borderline too heavy and full on or past 11 day trips. We are going 14, so need two of the xtra large butane cans.

Every morning, we need only to heat water for instant oatmeal, grits, coffee, and such.

Every evening, we cook fish and a side, using the two stoves on the two cans of fuel at the same time.

I only have one white gas stove, so cooking two things at a time on the white gas is not possible. Carrying a second butane cooking burner is easy, these little $10 Chinese stoves are the bomb.

Not a big fan of cooking over the fire but we do carry a Purcell Trench grill. There is the possibility of a burn ban, especially in the Woodland Caribou. Big fan of the speed of heating water for morning coffee on the Jetboil. Big fan of the simplicity and cleanliness of the butane. Not a fan of the smell of white gas in the food barrel.
Two people. My 22 year old daughter carries the two packs like a champ. I think the barrel was pushing 65 pounds last year. I portage two Kruger Sea Winds.

I would like to know what you guys use for long trips in pairs, and why.
Joe

 
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andym
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09/26/2018 04:59AM  
As trips get longer, white gas gains an advantage even if the stoves weigh more than the tiny stoves you can get for the top of cartridges. You just can’t beat the energy density of liquid fuel. But you also can’t beat the ease, leakproof nature, and lack of smell of cartridges. You just have to decide what is more important. Our best trips are around 10 days (usually 4 people) and we have switched from white gas to cartridges with MSR Windpro stoves. I like the bigger stoves for more pot stability and so I won’t use the tiny burner heads. And I like the cartridges because it is easier for everyone to learn to light them. One thing about the cartridges is that you can tuck them anywhere, even in a clothing pack. So they don’t all need to be in the barrel. You could just have the ones being used at the moment in it and keep the spares elsewhere.
 
Northwoodsman
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09/26/2018 07:51AM  
One thing that I found to help is reducing the need for fuel consumption in the first place in the planning stage. Don't bring sides or items that you have to simmer for 10 - 30 minutes. Bring the freeze dried or instant equivalent that you reconstitute with boiling water and let sit. Items like couscous, stuffing, instant potatoes for starches and freeze dried vegetables to eat separately or to blend in with the starches work well. Consider wrapping your fish in foil and cooking it on a fire or buy a cheap lightweight skillet to cook it over a fire. They have had a lot of rain in the BWCA lately, I'm not sure about WC so I can't address the fire burn issue. How about a small twig stove like the Titanium Emberlit at 5.5 oz. for cooking fish? Very light, fuel is free and you don't have to carry the fuel.
 
JATFOMike
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09/26/2018 08:07AM  
I prefer white gas for all of the reasons stated......to save on fuel, I made coozies for my pots and any meals that need to "simmer" come off the burner after reaching a boil and go into the coozie to simmer.....We do pretty extravagant meals early in the week and two of us for 6 days only went thru about 22 oz.s of white gas....that includes a couple cups of coffee/tea each morning....for the boil in a bag meals, add hot water and place in a coozie to simmer....

Mike
 
09/26/2018 09:43AM  
In the same situation (my and my daughter, week-plus trip) I use white gas. I do love the convenience of my tiny Snow Peak stove, but liquid fuel is more versatile and reliable. I am impressed that you only plan to use 2 20-oz bottles of white gas for 14 days given that you describe cooking fish. You must be really careful with your fuel.
 
HammerII
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09/26/2018 12:44PM  
I use the old stand by.....wood
That is of course if there is no fire ban, and the fire bans are a rare thing not a everyday event. What it all boils down to (see I made a funny ) is the type of meals you're going to eat. Some require lots of fuel to simmer and others just to heat up water. What works great for me for one trip may not be the answer for the next trip. So depending on the trip I might luge along a two burner Coleman stove and the next one slide a little pocket stove into the pack with 4ozs of fuel.
For a trip lasting two weeks I would plan on 2 forms for cooking. You always have wood to fall back on and what ever stove you like to use.
My best advice is try out what you plan on cooking and the stove before you go on the trip. That gives you a better idea of fuel use per day and how much fuel you're going to need
 
dsk
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09/26/2018 01:26PM  
I would probably go for white gas of the reasons mentioned over, if you run out of white gas but have anything else to fill on the bottle who is close to kerosene or gas it will work, and you can mix it. I have used lots of the kerosene-ish fuel made for starting charcoal fires. Diesel is no good, but in an emergency...

When I start my stove it looks like the wind automatically increases, so I carry a wind protecting piece of aluminum many yrs ago:
drawing

Saves lots of fuel!

dsk
 
09/27/2018 08:22AM  
For my cooking both canister and liquid fuel cook time and efficency are so close as to be interchanged liquid ounce (canister), to volumetric ounce (liquid fueled). The difference lies in container weights when empty. I consider the 4 ounce canister too small for more than a weekend.

8 ounce iso-butane can empty weight, 5.3 ounces
16 ounce iso-butane can empty weight, 7.2 ounces

11 ounce MSR bottle weight, 2.8 ounces
20 ounce MSR bottle weight, 5.2 ounces
30 ounce MSR bottle weight, 7.3 ounces

In my case a 14 day trip needs a 20 ounce fuel bottle (30 in the winter). I'd need 2, 8 ounce canisters with a 4 ounce spare (I do not like to pack the large 16 ounce size), in the winter I do not use canister.
I can cook for a week +, with 1 11 ounce bottle of fuel, if using canister an 8 ounce and a backup 4 ounce go. Your fuel mileage may/will differ.

butthead
 
09/27/2018 09:39AM  
When doing your ciphering, don't forget that fluid ounces and weight ounces are not the same. One fluid ounce of white gas, depending on the brand, should weight about 0.75 ounces. The MSR super fuel I use is about 0.72.

I've stuck with white gas over iso, at least so far. Shaking a container (either) to estimate fuel left is ok, but I always end up opening up the top so I can look in and see exactly what's left. I also don't like the idea of generating empty canisters. When planning for a 17 day solo trip to WCPP this year, I got a Solo Lite twig stove to help reduce the fuel carried. WCPP got put on hold due to the fires, but I did get to test the Solo on a 9 BWCA trip and loved it. Won't help in a fire ban, but I'd definitely bring it on any extended trip to reduce fuel carried. I may size up to the Titan (next size up) for me as it's faster to boil/more heat, and it would defo be better for two.
 
09/27/2018 12:24PM  
Am I one of the only guys that still prefers to cook everything over the fire with one pot and one skillet? We have gotten into taking a cheap stove for the morning coffee/tea. It is nice to have one on hand in case of a fire ban too. Cooking over a wood fire is just a part of the experience though.
 
09/27/2018 01:15PM  
Given the eating desires and expected applications expressed I think the canister stove is the best option.
And, yes, bring a wind screen, it is a big help.
 
dex8425
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09/27/2018 03:00PM  
Nobody uses cat food can alcohol stoves? For just boiling water, it's the most ultralight option other than a wood fuel stove, which are kind of a pain IMO. We use 1 ounce of HEET per day between my wife and I. That includes using stove for dinner and one cup of hot cocoa in the morning, not lunch.

There are some drawbacks, which I recognize, but for weight and bulk and cost it's gotta be the winner.
 
09/27/2018 05:55PM  
dex - I have been an alky burner fan for the last 5-6 years.
Clean, quiet, and ultra-lightweight.
But the question posed was white gas or butane canisters.
So given the question we try to respond with opinions that will be helpful.
 
09/28/2018 07:55AM  
Jaywalker: "When doing your ciphering, don't forget that fluid ounces and weight ounces are not the same. One fluid ounce of white gas, depending on the brand, should weight about 0.75 ounces. The MSR super fuel I use is about 0.72. "


I mentioned volume ounce vs weight ounce in the post above and yes there is a difference.
Over the years I have used both and find I can camp/cook for 7 days using an 8 ounce canister or a 11 ounce fuel bottle (do not fill it with 11 ounces, 8-9 ounces, any more and it is overfilled, not enough air space to pressurize safely), gas stove interchangeably. I will have some leftover, bit more for liquid, less for iso-butane.

butthead
 
PineKnot
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09/28/2018 08:53PM  
Joe,

I think I am in the minority here, but I started tripping using white gas but have gone exclusively to the Jetboil and Primus stoves for all my trips the past several years. I have 2 cups of coffee each morning and a freeze dried dinner every 3 or 4 days. I have found that one 230 gram canister can boil the water needed for this coffee and meals will make it through about 14 days. I also carry two of the little primus stovestops (also have one of the Chinese knockoffs which work just as well) and use them for ovaeasy eggs/precooked bacon/pan bread on layover days and dinners of fried fish and sides of pasta-roni or knorr noodles. I can make the egg breakfasts and dinners on one 230g canister each week (this is for me and a fellow paddler, usually my son). If and when a canister is empty, I find that smashing it flat helps to reduce bulk in the pack.

On my recent 2 week Q solo, I made it through the two weeks using only two 230g canisters (although I brought four just in case). I'll admit that I don't eat as much on solo trips than when I trip with others.

I have found the Jetboil and canisters to be so convenient, especially the Jetboil in the mornings, compared to white gas (and several trips when the white gas containers leaked all over the food pack).

ps. I also carry a Purcell trench grill that I use only when I want baked lake trout in foil cooked over the fire.

Hope you find this perspective useful.
 
joewildlife
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09/29/2018 04:35AM  
I definitely find your perspective useful! Thanks everybody for taking the time to participate in this forum and share your opinions and ideas. I will be modifying my plan in more than one way. Appreciate the help!
Joe
 
HammerII
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09/30/2018 10:58PM  
A1t2o: "Am I one of the only guys that still prefers to cook everything over the fire with one pot and one skillet? We have gotten into taking a cheap stove for the morning coffee/tea. It is nice to have one on hand in case of a fire ban too. Cooking over a wood fire is just a part of the experience though."


nope I can get a fire up and going in the amount of time it takes them to dig out a stove and get it going for boiling water.
 
HammerII
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09/30/2018 11:00PM  
dex8425: "Nobody uses cat food can alcohol stoves? For just boiling water, it's the most ultralight option other than a wood fuel stove, which are kind of a pain IMO. We use 1 ounce of HEET per day between my wife and I. That includes using stove for dinner and one cup of hot cocoa in the morning, not lunch.


There are some drawbacks, which I recognize, but for weight and bulk and cost it's gotta be the winner. "

Ok I don't have cat food cans but I've got a few made from beer cans that are really awesome. Cheap to make and to run
 
Cedarboy
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10/01/2018 07:57AM  
1 day or 14 days, white gas and twig stove are my choice.
CB
 
MisterKrabs
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10/01/2018 12:10PM  
6 day, 2 ppl -- We bring a twig stove and a canister stove. 1 8oz for use and 1 4oz canister for backup. If it's dry we try to use the twig stove for "cooking" and the canister for fast water (1.5 liter pot). We do coffee every morning along with a mix of real cooking and "freezer bag" cooking, about 1/3 -- 2/3. We've only gotten into the 4oz canister a couple of times on rainy trips.
 
user0317
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10/01/2018 01:10PM  
I just got off a 7 day trip on the Drowning river where it snowed or rained everyday, and I got by with a twig stove (biolite) just fine. I haven't used a gas burner for years.
 
10/01/2018 03:55PM  
Joe, I'll tell you what mine has evolved to over the last several years. I don't know if it's for you or not, but it's simple, fast, and uses little fuel. Fire bans are no problem, nor is spillage, and leaking is not very likely either. One of the key factors has already been mentioned - reducing your fuel usage. There are several ways to do this I discovered through research.

I take my Jetboil, which I like for its speed and efficiency. I have monitored my usage for several years so that I have a good idea of how much fuel I need. All of my meals are dehydrated and require only boiling water. The water does not need to be boiling for hot drinks, so uses a little less fuel. All breakfasts are cold cereal - requires no fuel. Lunches - bars, trail mix - do not require cooking either and are "calorie dense", especially the nuts. All that's required beyond the Jetboil stove to complete the kitchen is a cozy to keep the meal warm while it rehydrates, a spoon, a mug for my coffee, a lighter, and fuel. There is nothing to clean but the spoon, which requires no additional supplies. The empty bag is simply closed and put in the garbage.

This reduces the weight and bulk of "kitchen" considerably, as well as the time and energy needed for meal prep and clean up.

Some other things I do - monitor the stove so it doesn't use fuel unnecessarily. It only takes a minute to heat water for coffee and a minute and a half for dinners. I also read that canister stoves are more efficient when they aren't run at full throttle, so I only turn it up about 1/3 to 1/2.

I can usually go between 9 & 10 days on a 4 oz. fuel canister. I just did 16 days and didn't use the full 8 oz. canister. When I get home, I'll weigh it to see what's left and how much I used. I weigh the canisters before I leave and after I return, as well as testing each one. I don't have the information handy at the moment, but when you go up a size in canisters, the fuel goes up faster than the weight of the container. A canister with four ounces of fuel weighs about twice that. An 8 oz. canister weighs between 12 and 13 oz., or about 65% of the total weight. Not sure about the 16 oz. ones. For what I do, one of those would be enough for the trip you are planning.

Another advantage of the canister stoves is that a spare is small, light, and cheap.

I assume this is for a trip next year and you have time to experiment, and compare things. I'm sure you can use some of the ideas in this thread to help. I realized a long time ago that I wasn't going to save any significant amount of weight by switching from one to the other, so just went with what was simplest for me.

Good luck!
 
10/08/2018 04:17PM  
In case you are interested, Joe, I weighed the canister to see how much I used for 16 dinners and 28 coffees. I heated about 8-10 ounces for each and used 5.27 ounces (~150 grams) of the fuel, leaving about 2.84 oz. (~80 grams) of a medium JetBoil canister (8.11 ounces or 230 grams of fuel). The total weight of the canister and fuel to begin was 13.38 ounces.

I have a Canister Gas Estimator Worksheet (Excel) I downloaded from some website, which I plugged my numbers into and it worked out very close to my actual usage. I can send it to you if you want, but you do need to know your numbers.

Hope it all helps and you come up with a good plan.
 
BuckFlicks
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10/11/2018 05:53PM  
I've moved toward this as well, though I do take a couple packs of ramen for lunch if I'm not moving from one camp to the next one day. It's especially nice on cooler days. Otherwise, Cliff bars, beef jerky and GORP for lunch.

I know a lot of people like to cook nice elaborate hot meals at dinner time as a camp comfort. That's fine. For me, the comfort is the reduction in space and weight in my pack in terms of food, fuel, and pots/pans. For comfort food, I might take some chocolate or a small flask of whiskey, but I'd much prefer to spend that time and energy in camp doing something else rather than cook prep and dishes. Just my preference.

I don't have a JetBoil stove, I just have a MSR pocket rocket stove and a titanium pot. This works nicely for 2 people because the standard JetBoil pot doesn't hold enough water for 2 freeze dried meals. There is a bigger pot you can get that will, though.

Boonie hits the nail on the head when he describes cleanup as: a) lick the spoon clean and put it away. 2) close the bag and put it in the garbage. That's it. Best part.

 
joewildlife
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10/11/2018 07:25PM  
Boonie, excellent post! Thanks to you and everybody else who commented.

A few takeaways for me from all this:
-more instant mashed potatoes, less Knorr sides that take 7-10 minutes to cook, and never any rice and beans that take 20 minutes or more....or plan on cooking those on the fire instead of the stoves. Conservation of fuel by menu choices!
-I'm going to cook some of the fish in tin foil in the fire. Lake trout stuffed with onions and some lemon juice and spices is awesome
-I need to pay more attention to how much I use over the course of a trip, so I know better for the next trip. I could just keep a "usage log" on the bottom of the fuel can with a sharpie.

I will probably go with two of the big cannisters of fuel, and maybe stash a 4 oz one in the other pack as a backup.
Also my original Jetboil had some saltwater use and lost a few horsepower, so I have replaced it.
That will help heat my coffee/oatmeal faster and more efficiently.
Joe


 
10/11/2018 10:48PM  
I'm glad you found it useful, Joe. I started the process a few years ago for much the same reason as you - longer solo trips. Of course before that I was in the process of learning how much food I was actually going to eat on a trip, so I didn't carry twice as much food as I needed to. I usually only have a few coffees left and some trail mix when I exit.

I started weighing my canisters before and after and marking the results - how much fuel I used, how much was left - on the bottom with a "sharpie" just like you're planning to do. After doing that for a few trips, you will get a pretty good average.

Instant rice and couscous (and grits) are also things that don't need to be simmered, just added to boiling water and put in a cozy. In addition to adding vegetables, nuts, fruits, seeds, spices, herbs, and meats (foil pack, etc.), I have at times taken some of the shelf-stable ethnic meals to combine with them. While not as light as dehydrated, split between two people with rice, one or two are not excessively heavy.

I'll send you a couple of other things I have in an email when I dig them up.

But here is the ultimate fuel-saving cooking method, especially for those of us who are "hot" :) It would probably pay for itself in fuel saved on your trip!
 
10/16/2018 09:13AM  


Had to post this, ignore if you please. If there is no fire ban, bring one fuel canister packed inside of a coffee can twig burner. It takes a little more effort to heat water than a regular stove, but it is SUPER dependable!
 
10/19/2018 02:15PM  
No burn ban means I'm taking my twig stove to boil water for breakfast coffee and oatmeal. I have a nylon sack with a drawstring that my pot goes into so that I'm not getting soot all over everything in my pack. A 12 oz bottle of Heet and a pop can stove will give us around 16-18 qts of boiling water if heated a quart at a time.

If neither of those is an option to extend your fuel supply, then I'd try to stay away from white gas and deal with the extra little bit of weight for another canister. I really just don't want the smell in my food bucket.
 
joewildlife
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10/19/2018 02:25PM  
Good ideas.

My Cooke 60L barrel bag has two outside pockets that would be perfect for keeping the white gas bottles out of the food/kitchen barrel. Problem is I always have Nalgene water bottles in those pockets to carry the day's water. We always start out with two liters of water in the pockets and end up carrying the other two individually...sometimes we do use it all before hitting camp on a hard paddling/portaging day.
Maybe Dan should actually put four outside pockets on the barrel? LOL
Joe


 
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