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VoyageurNorth
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09/28/2018 01:55PM
Besides the stuff I see here that as an outfitter/cooperator, I do not like, a lot of you need to read the new requirements to make a permit reservation!



Dear BWCAW Cooperator:

I am writing to you to share several changes in the National Recreation Reservation System. This includes privacy, security, financial and program requirements of the new, nation-wide recreation.gov website launching on October 1, 2018.

• Beginning in 2019, the $10.00 reservation fee is changing to $6.00 for every quota permit. That means whether you reserve a permit ahead of time or purchase a ‘walk-in’ permit, the fee will be $6.00. This includes Day Use Motor permits.

• Group leaders (permit holders) are required to have a valid email address to reserve a permit.
• Each alternate permit holder is required to have a valid email address to be listed as an intended alternate at time of reservation.
• Alternates must respond to the recreation.gov email sent at the time of reservation and accept being an alternate within 72 hours of reservation, or the permit will not have alternates.

• If an alternate does not have a recreation.gov account, they will be required to create one at verification when they respond and accept being an alternate. Alternates can log on to www.recreation.gov and create their account any time prior to a reservation.
• All participant names must be entered for the permit to print at issuance. Participant names may be added to a reservation any time prior to the permit pick-up.
• For reservations made by a Cooperator, permit holders will receive a copy of the confirmation email.
• The new platform has stronger security controls, better protection of Personally Identifiable Information (PII), and increased fraud protection. Recreation.gov will no longer store credit card information.

• While the new recreation.gov website may be accessed via an older operating system, you will need the latest version of an officially supported browser (Chrome, Safari, Firefox, Microsoft Edge or Internet Explorer 11) to use the new recreation.gov.
• Only credit card readers that have been set up and activated by the recreation.gov program will enable credit card transactions. Hand entry of credit card numbers can only be processed through the EMV credit card reader listed below.

The following EMV Credit Card Reader is required for each computer that is used to complete credit card transactions through Field Sales:

Euro Mastercard Visa (EMV) Credit Card Reader
Manufacturer: Vantiv
Ingenico IPP320

The cost of the EMV device is $371 plus shipping. Your device will be shipped directly to your location and Device Client software installation is required upon receipt. Purchasing information will be forwarded in early December.

Next week, while the new nation-wide website (recreation.gov) is undergoing the transition to the new site, the system will be available for exploring. However, you will not be able to create a new account or access an existing account until October 5 at 10:00 a.m. EST, when account access is expected to be available.

For the 2019 BWCAW quota permit season, all permits for all entry points will be available on Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 9:00 a.m. CST. Permits may be reserved online at www.recreation.gov or by calling the reservation line at (877) 444-6777.

If you have questions, feel free to contact Ann Schwaller at (218) 626-4325. I appreciate your support as we work together through these changes with the goal of improved service to our Wilderness visitors.
 
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Savage Voyageur
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09/28/2018 02:05PM
Wow it sounds like a lot more work and cost for you as an outfitter.

Just a question for you, with this new requirement, how long would it take you process a permit from start to finish for one group with a leader and an alternate leader?

I’m asking you this in regards to another thread here at BWCA.com.
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/28/2018 02:18PM
It will probably take more time and since it looks like we may have to type in every "participant" on the form plus possibly an email address, who knows?

I have a number of people who do not have an email account (yes, it is true, a few hold outs do not), so not sure (yet) what we'll have to do for that.

Our card readers (have tried 3) have never worked; one worked for a few times and the other two never. So it looks like we'll have to buy the $371.00 item to be able to take credit cards especially if we have to key them in by hand. (Hmm, wonder if that means even at the time of the reservation?)

I can see all sorts of complications here and hope they will have a 1 year sort of grace period for customers.
VoyageurNorth
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09/28/2018 02:18PM
It will probably take more time and since it looks like we may have to type in every "participant" on the form plus possibly an email address, who knows?

I have a number of people who do not have an email account (yes, it is true, a few hold outs do not), so not sure (yet) what we'll have to do for that.

Our card readers (have tried 3) have never worked; one worked for a few times and the other two never. So it looks like we'll have to buy the $371.00 item to be able to take credit cards especially if we have to key them in by hand. (Hmm, wonder if that means even at the time of the reservation?)

I can see all sorts of complications here and hope they will have a 1 year sort of grace period for customers.
09/28/2018 04:18PM
Hm, so then are we unable to specify alternates after the permit is initially reserved? Like, I pull a 23 permit for entry and a month later I want my buddy to pick it up. Will I be able to make the change and then they have 72 hours to confirm alternate status (and create account if none already present, etc)?

My wife & MIL have ipp320s at their small business when their point of sale updated to support EMV. So far they've been working well. Yeah, they're not cheap.

Seems like USFS is trying to get better demographics related to use, maybe trying to start to track longer term usage patterns.
Jaywalker
distinguished member(1554)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/28/2018 04:55PM
In my last job, I was sometimes the guy who wrote and signed announcements like the one above. I found it was enormously helpful to at least superficially explain why some changes were being made. It didn't always stop people from not liking it, but it tended to lessen the pain of the change. In the absence of a rationale for any inconvenient change, people will tend to blame it on incompetence or bad intent. I believe the FS would have done themselves and us a favour to at least briefly explain the need for the changes, and I hope they do not prove to be a significant burden on outfitters.

On a personal note, I guess I have to set up a legitimate email for my dog if he's going to continue to be my alternate. That's easily done, but training him to respond in 72 hours may take some work.



VoyageurNorth
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09/28/2018 06:48PM
Mirth, it has been in the rules for almost forever that you can't change the names listed on a permit as the leader or alternate leader. This was done so people couldn't buy/reserve a permit and then let someone else use it. That was fair, otherwise lots of permits would have been taken without a "real" bunch of people.
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/28/2018 06:51PM
Next year when we take reservations for permits we'll have to make sure that the leader & any of the 3 alternate leaders have their email addresses correct. And then we'll have to make sure that the alternate leaders check their email from the permit within 72 hours so they don't get kicked off the alternate list. If someone doesn't have access to their email or for whatever reason, they just have 72 hours! And the alternate has to respond (in 72 hrs) and register at recreation.gov and create an account which I'm guessing if they do not create an account, they may also get dropped as alternate leader.

If your permit leader comes with, this isn't a problem. But if the leader ends up not being able to be there, then an alternate becomes leader & receives/signs the permit. I wonder if there will be a grace period or they can be added back on (since they were there originally) when they register?
Mocha
distinguished member(7257)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/28/2018 07:57PM
This sounds like a nightmare. Sometimes people reserve a permit without knowing who is going on the trip, email addresses for alternates is ridiculous
When a phone number works as well.
Totally agree with the charge of 6$ for each reservation including day use motor.

This definitely adds more work for the outfitter when there are multiple parties waiting to pickup their permit and watch the video.

Once again, another requirement for the cooperator. 371$ is a lot! The usfs should help pay for that or at least reduce the final bill outfitters pay at the end of the season.
cyclones30
distinguished member(1370)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/28/2018 08:00PM
Dang, that's a pain in the butt for you and us reserving our own. I understand the leader needing an email and account for making changes etc. But every alternate needs an email and account with username and password and probably all their own home address and everything else? That's way overboard
andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/28/2018 10:12PM
Keeping Personally Identifiable Information (PII) is one of the biggest security issues in the federal government (outside of actual classified info). Agencies can be heavily fined for revealing it. We get training on it every year. I once got chastised because our credit union emailed me a loan form and I forwarded it to my home email. As the email went out the security systems picked up that there was a social security number in the attachment. Yes, I got a warning about sending my SSN to myself.

So, attempts to make the site more secure and the credit cards more secure are understandable. Some of my agency’s security get in the way of doing my job (collaborating with scientists around the world) in order to ensure that someone in admin doesn’t accidentally share a file with PII in it. So, that may be a reason behind some of the changes including the credit card stuff.

But I don’t see the need for them to require emails and confirmation from all alternate leaders. They already would need an ID to pick up the permit. That’s more secure than an email account. Do they think people are selling fake IDs to go with permits?

I wonder if this is a carryover from some other sort of system. For scientific journals all authors now need emails and similar confirmations. But that is to make sure that all authors are aware of the paper being submitted and approve of it. But I can’t see why the alternates need to approve of a permit. They aren’t even required to go on the trip.

I guess there could be a little minor abuse where 4 people reserve a bunch of permits with all their names on them and then split them up later. But that may not even be abuse, unless they cancel a bunch of permits, and this doesn’t even stop it.
09/28/2018 11:05PM
Didn't realize recreation.gov was storing my CC#. That's BS. If I told one of my clients/prospects that the solution we sold did that, I'd be bounced out so fast that my head would spin. Haven't done that stuff for years, for good reason.

The alternates and some of the rest of that isn't PII as much as it's PITA.
MooseTrack
distinguished member(570)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/29/2018 08:42AM
Not only more work, but now they are requiring outfitters to purchase a $400.00 CC machine. This does not include monthly or processing fees! "The following EMV Credit Card Reader is required for each computer that is used to complete credit card transactions through Field Sales:

Euro Mastercard Visa (EMV) Credit Card Reader
Manufacturer: Vantiv
Ingenico IPP320

The cost of the EMV device is $371 plus shipping. Your device will be shipped directly to your location and Device Client software installation is required upon receipt. Purchasing information will be forwarded in early December". I spoke with Ann Schwaller (218-626-4325) regarding this situation and she confirmed that all cooperators are required to do this or we can not issue or reserve permits. This was thrown at us without any discussion. I can almost guarantee this will result in every corporator charging the $2 fee just to make some money back. To say the least I am not a happy camper. Lynn, sorry I do not want to hijack your thread....just brings this BS to people's attention.
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/29/2018 09:25AM
If i pick up my permit at the forrest service office they will charge me $6.00. Will i be sble to use my access card to reduce that to 3 bucks?
Also does it mention how many permits can be issued thru 1 phone call?
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/29/2018 04:48PM
Yogi, the $6.00 will be for the reservation. And if you do a walk in at the Forest Service, since they also connect with rec.gov, yes you will still pay the $6.00. The discount card you have is just good for discounted camping fees, not reservation fees.

Not quite sure what you mean by issuing a permit over the phone?
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/29/2018 08:53PM
Thank you .

I was just thinking if i called rec.gov opening morning, i get 1 day use motor permit , for lets say monday .
Can i get one for tue.wed. thurs. Fri.
On the same phne call or is it 1 permit per call.

Im just saying 1 person could tie up 1 operator for hours booking permits
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2170)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/30/2018 05:29AM
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2170)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/30/2018 05:29AM
oops!
4keys
distinguished member(582)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/30/2018 06:45PM
2 questions. First about the emails, and I realize that at this point it's possible no one knows. Let's say I am the permit holder, and I list my husband as the alternate. We use the same home email address. Will it be an issue having the same email?

Also, could someone clarify the part about listing all participants before permit is issued. Does that mean I have to list them when I make the reservation? Or can I add them when I pick up the permit but before the outfitter/ ranger station prints it out?

andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/01/2018 04:52AM
From the description you are listing all of the alternate leaders who can pick up the permit. That is different than the participants.

There are many systems where the login is the email and therefore you can’t have two people/accounts use the same email address. Even with login names that differ from the email address there can be a restriction to one account per email. The solution is to get a gmail account for the second person.

Just checked and recreation.gov uses email addresses as the login name. So you will need one address per leader.
10/01/2018 11:20AM
VoyageurNorth: "Mirth, it has been in the rules for almost forever that you can't change the names listed on a permit as the leader or alternate leader. This was done so people couldn't buy/reserve a permit and then let someone else use it. That was fair, otherwise lots of permits would have been taken without a "real" bunch of people."

Thanks Lynn. I guess I've never had occasion to need to declare an alternate leader beyond when the permit was reserved, so it was my bad assumption that you could change that after the fact like pickup locations.
Your explanation why makes perfect sense & I agree with the reasoning behind it.
ellahallely
distinguished member (378)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/01/2018 12:18PM
yogi59weedr: "Thank you .


I was just thinking if i called rec.gov opening morning, i get 1 day use motor permit , for lets say monday .
Can i get one for tue.wed. thurs. Fri.
On the same phne call or is it 1 permit per call.


Im just saying 1 person could tie up 1 operator for hours booking permits
"


I remember you being a motor guy. Word is with the new system motor permits might be hard to get. Here is an article from the Echo, copied and pasted.

Submitted by admin on Sat, 09/22/2018 - 11:44
The U.S. Forest Service may end up being responsible for damaging several Ely area businesses and upsetting a large section of BWCA motorboat permit users.
A letter sent out last week from the Duluth office reaffirms the decision to do away with the permit lottery for motor entry points.
This includes:
Day Use Motor Entry Points:
• D Fall Lake, Newton, Pipestone & Beyond
• F Moose Lake to Newfound & Sucker Lakes
• G Moose Lake to Prairie Portage to Basswood
Overnight Paddle & Overnight Motor Entry Points:
• 24 Fall Lake
• 25 Moose Lake
The Forest Service believes an online permit reservation system will work better. But for individual users and businesses who rely on the scarce motor permits, this is a recipe for disaster.
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/01/2018 06:13PM
The permits were hard to get. I'm hoping the new system might be better. Im up there fr 3 weeks. I'm lucky to get a couple moose into basswood. Best i ever recieved in the lottery.
My thought is they should limit the # of permits per phone call. Say 3?
I a single person or outfitter gets a reservationist. Can they keep them on the line and reserve 30 40 permits.
Im sure there will be only a # of phone people on duty.
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/01/2018 06:25PM
We haven't called in permit reservations for many years, so not sure what the limits are on those (previously & for 2019).

We get applications for permits from customers who contact us well ahead of time (some starting even now but almost all before the end of the year). We organize them on folders & documents, make sure we have all the info/details we'll need to complete a reservation correctly (next year that will mean a lot more details & time & email/phone calls to organize & verify email addresses for the alternates) and then at the minute the online reservations go live, we have 6-8 of our crew, all at computers and within 2 hours time, we are done entering all the permit reservations.

It will take longer next year with all the info that will be needed for the alternates so it may be up to 3 hours possible.

I'm going to be at the October 25th meeting to find out any more details & to give our input. If you have any thoughts that you think we might be able to bring up there, let me know & it may help with all the discussions that I know will be going on.

yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/02/2018 12:02AM
Roger that.
10/02/2018 05:54PM
I got my email this afternoon outlining the new rules. Seems pretty straight forward, except...
I appreciate the offer to get some clarification. I solo so when I obtain my permit I would not have an alternate to contact. If you can tell us solo folks how to get our permits without an alternate I will be most grateful.
Also, does this apply to the off season day permits we fill out at the EP where there have been no fees?
Thanks
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/02/2018 06:58PM
The off season permits are self issued, no quota, so since self issued still, should be no fee of any kind.
cyclones30
distinguished member(1370)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/02/2018 09:50PM
I also got the email today.

If you're at the meeting, I feel the worst part is the alternates needing all their own accounts and emails. As someone who deals with people and their usernames and passwords a fair amount, that will be a huge pain. The leader is just that, someone who should have their ducks in a row for their account info. Now all 3 alternates need to create and remember their account info? And answer an email within 3 days of the permit being reserved. Stupid and excessive if you ask me.

Also, what if an alternate doesn't have internet or email?
andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/03/2018 11:26AM
For people with no internet, I suggest either using the local library for computer access or letting the trip leader set up and handle a gmail account for them. The latter might be against the rules (because the alternate isn’t really confirming.
Atrain
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
 
10/03/2018 11:50AM
andym: "For people with no internet, I suggest either using the local library for computer access or letting the trip leader set up and handle a gmail account for them. The latter might be against the rules (because the alternate isn’t really confirming. "

Stupid rules were meant to be broken.
andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/03/2018 02:50PM
I figured I would leave that point to someone else.
VoyageurNorth
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10/03/2018 03:17PM
I will bring up the question (at the meeting) about people who do not have an email address and/or Internet service.

Plus if the 72 hour limit for return registration can be "tweaked" somehow.
nooneuno
distinguished member (460)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/03/2018 05:05PM
I would question only this: what percentage of people actually have relied on their alternate to pick up the permit? I never have but my experience may be outside of the norm and I just don't realize it. I also have never reserved a permit for more than two regardless of how many were actually going, we just changed the number at pickup...
nooneuno
distinguished member (460)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/03/2018 05:05PM
I would question only this: what percentage of people actually have relied on their alternate to pick up the permit? I never have but my experience may be outside of the norm and I just don't realize it. I also have never reserved a permit for more than two regardless of how many were actually going, we just changed the number at pickup...
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/03/2018 05:13PM
Nooneuno; We often have the alternate leaders pick up a permit. Sometimes it is because the leader can't go. More often it is that the leader won't arrive before we close so the alternate picks up the permit.

The alternate is often the one who can get here before 10 pm and the group wants to leave for their entry point before 5 am when we open (summer hours). Doesn't seem like it would happen much but that happens enough that we remember doing a number of those.

For day use motor permits, many times the leader and 3 other alternates are listed. Then if the leader can't make it that week, one of the alternates may be using it. Those we see quite a bit.
andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/03/2018 06:28PM
I’d be curious what they hope to accomplish by having emails, accounts, and confirmations for the alternates. Is there a form of fraud this prevents or something else? Thanks.
10/04/2018 07:55AM
Jaywalker: "In my last job, I was sometimes the guy who wrote and signed announcements like the one above. I found it was enormously helpful to at least superficially explain why some changes were being made. It didn't always stop people from not liking it, but it tended to lessen the pain of the change. In the absence of a rationale for any inconvenient change, people will tend to blame it on incompetence or bad intent. I believe the FS would have done themselves and us a favour to at least briefly explain the need for the changes, and I hope they do not prove to be a significant burden on outfitters.


On a personal note, I guess I have to set up a legitimate email for my dog if he's going to continue to be my alternate. That's easily done, but training him to respond in 72 hours may take some work.



"


I agree 100%...change is hard even if it is better, giving a solid reason helps lessen worry, questions, objections quite a bit. The FS really did a disservice to themselves and cooperators with this type of announcement.

T
A1t2o
distinguished member(612)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/04/2018 12:59PM
nooneuno: "I would question only this: what percentage of people actually have relied on their alternate to pick up the permit? I never have but my experience may be outside of the norm and I just don't realize it. I also have never reserved a permit for more than two regardless of how many were actually going, we just changed the number at pickup..."

I usually make the reservation myself and have my buddy as an alternate pick it up. He works downtown Duluth so it is easy for him to pick it up from the Duluth Pack store. The only time I have ever picked it up myself was this year when he forgot to get it the night before and we had to swing by when they opened.

My situation might not be that standard, since he lives so close to the BWCA he gets to go multiple times a year with his family and other friends, but I have kids and live much further away so I only get one trip a year and thus tend to do the bulk of the planning. It has always worked for us before the new system might be more difficult. He is very busy and tends to not check his personal email, sometimes for weeks. I have even booked trips when he was already out on one. So relying on him to respond and sign in, if he even has an account, might be a little bit of a gamble.

It is just frustrating when I know he is going to get the permit and this system might throw some uncertainty into that plan.

Do most people go through an outfitter? I had thought it was more unusual to not pick up the permit ahead of time. Who wants to have to make stops before getting on the water?
schweady
distinguished member(6717)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/05/2018 12:24PM
VoyageurNorth: "We get applications for permits from customers who contact us well ahead of time (some starting even now but almost all before the end of the year). We organize them on folders & documents, make sure we have all the info/details we'll need to complete a reservation correctly (next year that will mean a lot more details & time & email/phone calls to organize & verify email addresses for the alternates) and then at the minute the online reservations go live, we have 6-8 of our crew, all at computers and within 2 hours time, we are done entering all the permit reservations."
Lynn - Although I have always personally done all of our groups' trip reservations online, picturing the 'VNO Permit Reservation Command Center' happening each January is one of the reasons we love you guys.
Zwater
distinguished member (171)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/05/2018 02:02PM
Lynn, and Voyageur North are the best. Only place we get our permits through.
schweady
distinguished member(6717)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/06/2018 08:58AM
So, I updated my password and checked out the new site. I get how registration is closed until January, etc, but it would still be nice to be able to nose around to see what improvements (if any) were made to the screen layouts which will be shown during the reservation process. On numerous occasions, when that feedback opportunity window would pop up, I provided some very specific suggestions for improvement. Anxious to see if any of them were taken into consideration...
Mocha
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10/08/2018 09:37AM
the more i think about the new requirement the more i think it's silly. what if you're a parent taking your young kids? they most likely do not have email addresses. they might have a phone #.
andym
distinguished member(4352)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
10/08/2018 10:19AM
A young kid is not going to be an alternate leader. They only need to be listed by name when it is picked up.

We’re up at our cabin and talked to a friend that uses motor permits. They’re not happy about the loss of the lottery for a reason not yet brought up here. With no lottery there is an advantage to people with fast reliable internet access. Those that live out of town in the woods could get easily lose out if service is down that morning.
10/08/2018 10:58AM
Mocha: "the more i think about the new requirement the more i think it's silly. what if you're a parent taking your young kids? they most likely do not have email addresses. they might have a phone #. "

I believe that only the alternates need to have email, and chances are young kids wouldn't be listed as an alternate for picking up the permit. The other parties on the trip just need to have their names recorded.
thegildedgopher
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
10/09/2018 03:51PM
ellahallely: "yogi59weedr: "Thank you .
I was just thinking if i called rec.gov opening morning, i get 1 day use motor permit , for lets say monday .
Can i get one for tue.wed. thurs. Fri.
On the same phne call or is it 1 permit per call."


I remember you being a motor guy. Word is with the new system motor permits might be hard to get. Here is an article from the Echo, copied and pasted."


I don't see how the motor permits could POSSIBLY become harder to get than they already were.

VoyageurNorth: "For day use motor permits, many times the leader and 3 other alternates are listed. Then if the leader can't make it that week, one of the alternates may be using it. Those we see quite a bit."

... and I for one hope that the new system prevents just this. If you can't make it, the reservation should be forfeited and become available to the next customer.
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2611)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
10/09/2018 04:00PM
I don't see how the motor permits could POSSIBLY become harder to get than they already were.


VoyageurNorth: "For day use motor permits, many times the leader and 3 other alternates are listed. Then if the leader can't make it that week, one of the alternates may be using it. Those we see quite a bit."


... and I for one hope that the new system prevents just this. If you can't make it, the reservation should be forfeited and become available to the next customer."

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
That isn't fair just because it is a day use permit. The same thing would then have to be applied to the overnight paddling permits. And that would mean that you couldn't have alternate leaders to take over the trip/permit if you couldn't go.
10/09/2018 06:53PM
I don't understand the reasoning on that. If 4 guys decide to go and one says OK, I'll get the permit, then has a death in the family, why should the other three not be able to use the permit and go?
 
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