I thought it was against the law to take things like this out of the BWCA. Can anyone clarify? Thanks moose antlers

If they really did take them out of the BW (as they said they did), then yes, it is most definitely illegal.

Maybe the USFS needs to see this ad.

Not necessarily.
It may depend on when they were removed from the BWCA, as laws have changed (or will be soon) about commercializing the area.
These laws will, or already include fur trapping, Cisco trapping, photography, driftwood and many other things one would deem ridiculous when they are finalized.
One that is ridiculous: Taking blueberries picked in the BWCA, brought into town, made into muffins pies, then sold at the Farmer's Market is now considered to be illegal by the Forest Service.
Much of this BS originated when the Forest Service banned Oyster trapping in some Park in California, and extended it to commercializing the BWCA.

Pretty sure you can take sheds, not sure about that case where they were attached to naturaly deceased animals

Based on the photos, I'm guessing this was a story published in May of 2017. I won't include the link since it appears the seller wishes to remain anonymous. According to the article in 2017 the DNR issued a permit to keep the sheds. The article did not indicate where the sheds were found.

As I remember, as a retired USFS, National Park Service and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Refuge employee.
It is illegal to take sheds from National Parks, and most U.S. Fish and Wildlife Refuges lands.
But it is allowed within USFS boundarys, even in wilderness areas.

$3900 for locked moose antlers... In my opinion, ranks right up there with buying rhinoceros horn or bear gall bladder, per the rationale. The difference being: at least these critters were already dead. So, less harm done, there.

FYI, the oyster dispute in Drake’s Bay was with the park service and had to do with the end of a permit to operate a substantial oyster farm. It had nothing to do with collecting wild oysters or the forest service.

So, keeping sheds found in the BWCA is illegal or not? Just wanted to get a straight answer for the record because there has been a little disagreement.

I thought there was a potion of the video that specifically mentioned leaving everything found in the bwca in the bwca. Which I was not sure I agreed with because the way the video seems to state it, you can't even take out a walking stick. What's the harm in keeping a stick or even a shed?

rtallent: "$3900 for locked moose antlers... In my opinion, ranks right up there with buying rhinoceros horn or bear gall bladder, per the rationale. The difference being: at least these critters were already dead. So, less harm done, there."

Really?

IMO, if people can make a few bucks off of low/no impact activities in wilderness areas, we'll have the political will to preserve those areas in their current state. The idea of wilderness areas as a sort of outdoor museum where we look but don't touch is totally counterproductive.

Picking up sheds/bones is not even in the same universe as poaching endangered species or torturing animals.

I agree with BobDobbs.

We’ve talked about this many times here, just do a search on antler sheads. We need to remember that the BWCA is in a National Forest not a National Park, very different rules pertaining here. But like Jim said the rules are presently changing. If someone knows the current ruling on this please post the link.

I wonder if Cowdoc can ascertain, via the second picture, what lake those antlers are by?

A1t2o: "So, keeping sheds found in the BWCA is illegal or not? Just wanted to get a straight answer for the record because there has been a little disagreement."

Keeping found sheds is legal. The part that may seem foggy here, is whether selling found sheds is or may become illegal.

BobDobbs: "

rtallent: "$3900 for locked moose antlers... In my opinion, ranks right up there with buying rhinoceros horn or bear gall bladder, per the rationale. The difference being: at least these critters were already dead. So, less harm done, there."

Really?


IMO, if people can make a few bucks off of low/no impact activities in wilderness areas, we'll have the political will to preserve those areas in their current state. The idea of wilderness areas as a sort of outdoor museum where we look but don't touch is totally counterproductive.


Picking up sheds/bones is not even in the same universe as poaching endangered species or torturing animals."

Yes, I wrote that poorly. What I meant to opine, was that I think it is foolishness to pay a lot of money for shed antlers or other animal parts... Did not mean to get all righteous about collecting sheds... though the critters like em for the calcium. I agree with your last sentence.

$4k for Moose antlers someone else found?

No thanks.

I found a shed next to my neighbors garage. Much easier to move after I took his lawn tractor out of it!

It may be legal on FS land. However, is it a violation of the LNT agreement on the permit? Or is it the same as taking fish or blueberries home? My personal preference is for people to leave sheds to be enjoyed by others. But that’s just my preference and not a rule.

LindenTree3: "As I remember, as a retired USFS, National Park Service and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Refuge employee.
It is illegal to take sheds from National Parks, and most U.S. Fish and Wildlife Refuges lands.
But it is allowed within USFS boundarys, even in wilderness areas."

Pretty sure that is correct.

andym: "It may be legal on FS land. However, is it a violation of the LNT agreement on the permit? Or is it the same as taking fish or blueberries home? My personal preference is for people to leave sheds to be enjoyed by others. But that’s just my preference and. It a rule. "

It’s been a while since I’ve read the permit agreement so I can’t remember what it says. As I remember, leave no trace is more of a Wilderness practice than a law on the books. Leave No Trace is a set of outdoor ethics promoting conservation in the outdoors. If it’s not a law, just an agreement it’s not a violation. The thing here is he is selling it, not just keeping it.

With that said I have always left what I find for others to enjoy.

It's only illegal if you get caught.??

Savage Voyageur: "

andym: "It may be legal on FS land. However, is it a violation of the LNT agreement on the permit? Or is it the same as taking fish or blueberries home? My personal preference is for people to leave sheds to be enjoyed by others. But that’s just my preference and. It a rule. "

It’s been a while since I’ve read the permit agreement so I can’t remember what it says. As I remember, leave no trace is more of a Wilderness practice than a law on the books. Leave No Trace is a set of outdoor ethics promoting conservation in the outdoors. If it’s not a law, just an agreement it’s not a violation. The thing here is he is selling it, not just keeping it.


With that said I have always left what I find for others to enjoy. "

This is the way I took it too after doing a little research. LNT section on the guide that is at recreation.gov refers to LNT as being a code of ethics not rules. The part about taking nothing with you seems to refer to cultural locations like pictographs and the spread of invasive species, like with everyone hauling firewood. I don't see sheds as being part of the intent of these guidelines. That's not much different from using a stick you found as a walking stick.

Finders Keepers

andym: "FYI, the oyster dispute in Drake’s Bay was with the park service and had to do with the end of a permit to operate a substantial oyster farm. It had nothing to do with collecting wild oysters or the forest service."

andym:
Three of us, plus representatives from Senator Klobuchar's office and Congressman Nolan's office were in a meeting in October 2016 with Gus Smith from the Forest Service, and one representative of the Minnesota DNR in Ely.
The reason given for banning the commercial harvesting of Ciscoes in the BWCA was the Oyster ban in California.
If this had nothing to do with the Forest Service, how did they stop our operation that's been going on for 50 years??
They tried to stop us two years earlier, but political negotiations allowed it to continue until they stopped it with 2016 being the last year.
They also stopped, or are considering stopping other activities that I mentioned above.

I have to agree with TGO. I had heard and read what TGO says. So I took a couple of seconds and goggled it. This is the first link I found. This is the first link I found. It brings up Drake Bay Oyster Company in the Point Reyes Wilderness in California and their closer.

Soo I can shoot a live buck with rack attached, no problem.

If I find a rack lying on the ground it's off limits.

Last trip in we got drenched, sleeping bags, tent, clothes all soaked, should I have wrung the water out at home and brought it back?

My point was that Drake's Bay falls under the National Parks Service and the Department of the Interior and not the Forest Service and the Department of Agriculture. So, two different departments interpreting the Wilderness act. You can decide if that matters or not when tying things together. Second, the Drake's Bay Oyster company was not harvesting wild oysters but growing them in a significant marine agricultural operation in an area that was argued they were hurting the wild species. I see that as different than the wild ciscoes or the small scale collecting as was being discussed at the top of this thread. This was a huge controversy out here and I really like paddling there. I don't have a strong opinion on the decision but I do know what their operation looked like from being on the water.

BTW, that issue is about to expand a lot as the permits to operate dairy farms in the same wilderness are coming up for renewal. The farms are quite beloved (lot of organic dairies) but clearly have an impact on the amount of land available for species such as the Tule elk. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

In some ways, this is similar to the founding of the BW. When the Point Reyes area was turned into wilderness, existing activities were given permits that lasted for around 40 years. Now those permits are expiring and need to be renewed or a new way forward needs to be picked.

Sheds would fall under the jurisdiction of Minnesota DNR laws wouldn't it. It is legal to hunt in BWCAW, its legal to keep hunt and keep sheds.

treehorn: "$4k for Moose antlers someone else found?


No thanks."

My thought exactly. Reminds me the highly overpriced old Duluth pack offered a few years ago.

JimmyJustice: "I wonder if Cowdoc can ascertain, via the second picture, what lake those antlers are by?"

Ha!

ellahallely: "I have to agree with TGO. I had heard and read what TGO says. So I took a couple of seconds and goggled it. This is the first link I found. This is the first link I found. It brings up Drake Bay Oyster Company in the Point Reyes Wilderness in California and their closer."

Very accurate description of the Prairie Portage Cisco shutdown, and exactly what I stated above. :)

Maybe I’m just being pedantic, but you said, “Much of this BS originated when the Forest Service banned Oyster trapping in some Park in California, and extended it to commercializing the BWCA.”

What may be accurate is, “much of this BS originated when the Park Service banned oyster farming in a wilderness area in California and the Forest Service used that as a reason to ban commercializing the BWCA.”

The article posted above called the activity oyster harvesting which is vague. It sounds sort of like just collecting oysters as opposed to having significant artificial structures in the bay to grow the oyster on.

But also maybe the reason to know the details is that maybe it could have helped fight the FS by showing the differences between the two cases.

OK, I think I’ve said all I can. BTW, I’m not against either the oyster farm or the ciscoes and may well send in comments supporting the dairies.

But milker



Not sure this is the link my daughter sent me. But Andy’s dairy farm comment got me thinking there are other “industries” effected too.

But milker



Not sure this is the link my daughter sent me. But Andy’s dairy farm comment got me thinking there are other “industries” effected too. Dang spell check... that’s nut milker not but.

andym: "Maybe I’m just being pedantic, but you said, “Much of this BS originated when the Forest Service banned Oyster trapping in some Park in California, and extended it to commercializing the BWCA.”
What may be accurate is, “much of this BS originated when the Park Service banned oyster farming in a wilderness area in California and the Forest Service used that as a reason to ban commercializing the BWCA.”
The article posted above called the activity oyster harvesting which is vague. It sounds sort of like just collecting oysters as opposed to having significant artificial structures in the bay to grow the oyster on.
But also maybe the reason to know the details is that maybe it could have helped fight the FS by showing the differences between the two cases.
"

You're kind of splitting hairs, but that's fine.
The bottom line is the Forest Service used the Oyster ban as THE excuse for eliminating Cisco trapping.
The Forest Service has an agenda for new regulations in the BWCA, our Cisco operation was just the tip of the iceberg.
Canoeists will be in for a big surprise when these new restrictions begin to appear.

Park service or the forest service in either case it is the federal government. Telling the people of Ely how to live for 75 years. In the governments defense many of their decisions are influenced by groups like the sierra club or Kevin Proescholdt and wilderness watch. It seems these people do not care about the people of Northern Minnesota and their well being.

TGO what ever became of the feds barging into your business and busting up your computers looking for evidence? Did anyone ever get charged with a crime? Did anyone ever get paid for the many thousands of dollars in bait that was taken?

If the bait was taken on the Canadian side why didn't the mounties arrest Jeeps people on the spot, like then do in every other case with illegal game being taken?

The rumors I hear is one of these groups (like but, I am not saying wilderness watch) said the Jeeps people where on the Canadian side. Now that would be BS.

TGO one of these days I will stop in to your shop!!

JIM P.

nctry: " But milker



Not sure this is the link my daughter sent me. But Andy’s dairy farm comment got me thinking there are other “industries” effected too. Dang spell check... that’s nut milker not but."

Damn that’s funny. Fortunately, there aren’t any free range almonds in wilderness areas.

andym: "

nctry: " But milker




Not sure this is the link my daughter sent me. But Andy’s dairy farm comment got me thinking there are other “industries” effected too. Dang spell check... that’s nut milker not but."

Damn that’s funny. Fortunately, there aren’t any free range almonds in wilderness areas. "

But how would you know, sounds like the female ones are hard to find. Haha.

The Great Outdoors: "

andym: "
The Forest Service has an agenda for new regulations in the BWCA, our Cisco operation was just the tip of the iceberg.
Canoeists will be in for a big surprise when these new restrictions begin to appear."

Have you heard rumors on what’s ahead for us? Please tell us what you know.

Almost fixed the quote.

Northwoodsman: "Almost fixed the quote."

Savage Voyager is going to have to fix it...

nooneuno: "

Northwoodsman: "Almost fixed the quote."

Savage Voyager is going to have to fix it..."

Looks fixed on my end. Sorry, you would think I’d have this down by now.

ellahallely: "TGO what ever became of the feds barging into your business and busting up your computers looking for evidence? Did anyone ever get charged with a crime? Did anyone ever get paid for the many thousands of dollars in bait that was taken?
If the bait was taken on the Canadian side why didn't the mounties arrest Jeeps people on the spot, like then do in every other case with illegal game being taken?
The rumors I hear is one of these groups (like but, I am not saying wilderness watch) said the Jeeps people where on the Canadian side. Now that would be BS.
TGO one of these days I will stop in to your shop!!
JIM P."

I have heard absolutely nothing about this, nor received any of the business records or $5,000 worth of bait they took that day.
Not sure as to what started this, but either a USF&W or local CO lied when they made a statement that was the basis for the warrant
I confronted the local CO, and he became very irritated when I said one of the two had lied. He said he did not lie, so that means the Federal enforcement officer did.
No one will ever know I guess, since they have gone into the CYA mode. (cover your ass)

Savage Voyageur: "

The Great Outdoors: "

andym: "
The Forest Service has an agenda for new regulations in the BWCA, our Cisco operation was just the tip of the iceberg.
Canoeists will be in for a big surprise when these new restrictions begin to appear."

Have you heard rumors on what’s ahead for us? Please tell us what you know. "

You have already seen some changes, beginning with our Cisco operation, and that being extended to fur trapping, picking blueberries in the BWCA and selling them commercially at the local Farmer's Market if made into muffins or a pie, eventually photography if photos are sold, etc.
You now see there are new permit regulations that are not quite etched in stone yet, but rest assured there will be others.
Now we haven't even got to the tow boats yet, a prime target for the likes of Kevin Proescholdt of Wilderness Watch. When (not if) they manage to eliminate the tow boat, many will say "about time!"
They say this without considering the backlash that will occur when they're gone. I believe the Moose Lake entry point allows 27 permits daily?? With no dispersal method for that many, the numbers will be cut dramatically affecting at least 5 outfitters (including the Norther Tier Scout Base) when the daily permits are dropped to about 6 per day. Crazy you say, do the math. 27 permits daily times 4 canoes/permit equals 108 canoes maximum paddling. How long before people begin complaining that there are too many visitors? (except themselves, of course)
This is going to get very interesting in the future.

Would be nice if the site didn't constantly go into the light tone italic font. I see many of the contributes here do what they can to fix it. I try not to post with quotes because of it. If this gets fixed I will be a paying supporter- contributor again. Maybe I am to picky. If so...... sorry. JIM P.

These are all from the Boundary Waters.

Nice! Karl, no doubt you have put in some time finding that impressive pile. Moose antlers are so cool, I hope to one day stumble across just one like you have there.

Karl I have found maybe 10 in the b-dub over the years. Always just came across them, I have never hunted antlers. I take it go antler hunting? What time of year? Spring, later winter? I was once told if you find one the other is nearby. I have never had any luck find the "other one".

None of those antlers were mine. They belonged to a group of guys who hit the B'Dub every spring while there is still plenty of snow, which helps to see them.
They know the hot spots.
I've heard stories from those guys that were pretty amazing.
They had gone in just after ice-out before with canoes and had an entire canoe so filled with sheds that a person could not get in it.
Normally they go in in late Feb so as to get the antlers before the critters do. The longer the antler lays there the more likely they get eaten by squirrels, porcupines, etc. They love the calcium.
They had one guy get on his hands and knees and they strapped over 100 pounds of antlers on his back. He could not take them off to rest, so every now and then he would stop, get down on his hands and knees and rest for a moment before he would get back going.
During one of of these breaks he heard something behind him and a wolf was sniffing his feet!! Wolf must have thought he was an injured "animal".
And the walls of that shop we COVERED with white tail antlers from the B'dub.

I know this will sound really goofy, but that group had been doing this since they were in high school. (They're in their 40s.)
One of them told me to never believe what we hear about the moose dyeing off. He said there are as many there now as there ever have been.
Take that for what it's worth.
(Not trying to start any controversy. It's just what they said.)

Up in woodland caribou they say to leave them for the nice and other rodents to chew on. But I was through an area four times In five years and saw the same racks all four times. Never looked any worse for wear.

The Great Outdoors: "

Savage Voyageur: "

The Great Outdoors: "

andym: "The Forest Service has an agenda for new regulations in the BWCA, our Cisco operation was just the tip of the iceberg. Canoeists will be in for a big surprise when these new restrictions begin to appear."

Have you heard rumors on what’s ahead for us? Please tell us what you know."

You have already seen some changes, beginning with our Cisco operation, and that being extended to fur trapping, picking blueberries in the BWCA and selling them commercially at the local Farmer's Market if made into muffins or a pie, eventually photography if photos are sold, etc. You now see there are new permit regulations that are not quite etched in stone yet, but rest assured there will be others. Now we haven't even got to the tow boats yet, a prime target for the likes of Kevin Proescholdt of Wilderness Watch. When (not if) they manage to eliminate the tow boat, many will say about time!
They say this without considering the backlash that will occur when they're gone. I believe the Moose Lake entry point allows 27 permits daily?? With no dispersal method for that many, the numbers will be cut dramatically affecting at least 5 outfitters (including the Norther Tier Scout Base) when the daily permits are dropped to about 6 per day. Crazy you say, do the math. 27 permits daily times 4 canoes/permit equals 108 canoes maximum paddling. How long before people begin complaining that there are too many visitors? (except themselves, of course). This is going to get very interesting in the future."

I'm 0 for 2 trying to fix these things.

"I thought there was an acceptable slot size for antlers. One 6-8pt antler per day is ok but the rest need to be released back into nature."

- my tripping buddy :)

The longer they last, the more people get to see them if they are left behind. Maybe the ethic should be like firewood. Take them from back in the woods where people rarely go but leave them near trails or the water for the enjoyment of others.

KarlBAndersen1: "These are all from the Boundary Waters.
"

Nice collection of antlers, and I'm sure absolutely no one is any worse off because someone brought them back from the BWCA.
A lot more people will see and enjoy them than they would have, if left in the woods. :)

KarlBAndersen1: "These are all from the Boundary Waters.
"

Nice pile Karl, my buddy from Alaska does this with his antlers, he also makes knives but I don't think he does it from scratch like you.



polar vision carvings

Past projects

I understand that people also get enjoyment of them outside of the wilderness. That's why I suggested a compromise approach.

"

nctry: "Up in woodland caribou they say to leave them for the nice and other rodents to chew on. But I was through an area four times In five years and saw the same racks all four times. Never looked any worse for wear."

Now that you bring it up I have never found an antler that some animal had been chewing on. Although I had always heard the critters enjoy them, maybe not so much???

ellahallely: "

nctry: "Up in woodland caribou they say to leave them for the nice and other rodents to chew on. But I was through an area four times In five years and saw the same racks all four times. Never looked any worse for wear."

Now that you bring it up I have never found an antler that some animal had been chewing on. Although I had always heard the critters enjoy them, maybe not so much???"

I have seen moose antlers that been there for awhile not chewed and others half gone.
Further south like Brainerd-Longville deer antlers if you don't find them before spring squirrels and mice will just destroy them and will be pretty much devoured. Porcupines will also do a job on them. I know antler hunters around home if you don't find them in the time period ,like I mentioned you will very rarely find a uneaten on antler. This last year I had a couple antlers in a flower planter and squirrels were chewing on them all the time.
Its getting to be quite the sport to train a dog to sniff out and find sheds. I think that would be fun.

The picture above on moose antlers look like they were found the same year. vey good color and shape. There is a few areas I know people do real well looking for them in the winter on snowshoes.

This message has had HTML content edited out of it.

Savage Voyageur: "

The Great Outdoors: "

andym: "
The Forest Service has an agenda for new regulations in the BWCA, our Cisco operation was just the tip of the iceberg.
Canoeists will be in for a big surprise when these new restrictions begin to appear."

Have you heard rumors on what’s ahead for us? Please tell us what you know."

"

leave them in the woods, wouldn't want to endanger the mice and squirrel population

Found this one along the Louse River while "temporarily disoriented". I really thought about keeping it but it was day 2 of 6 and I didnt want to lug it around.

The Great Outdoors: "Not necessarily.
It may depend on when they were removed from the BWCA, as laws have changed (or will be soon) about commercializing the area.
These laws will, or already include fur trapping, Cisco trapping, photography, driftwood and many other things one would deem ridiculous when they are finalized.
One that is ridiculous: Taking blueberries picked in the BWCA, brought into town, made into muffins pies, then sold at the Farmer's Market is now considered to be illegal by the Forest Service.
Much of this BS originated when the Forest Service banned Oyster trapping in some Park in California, and extended it to commercializing the BWCA."

Not ridiculous at all, it is commercial harvesting, same as fishing or logging.

Sounds like someone’s panties are in a wad ??

Wimp what next? The commercial outfitter? Commercial dog sledding? Well like it or not that is what's next. I might add it is already being talked about.

Outfitter Cliff Wold used to say" the BWCA is going to be a biosphere reserve one day where people aren’t allowed." If you want it to be a true wilderness that will have to happen.

Just to let you know "panties" is a sexist term!!!

I miss Cliff...I hope he is wrong and I think he was wrong, but it is possible.

T

ellahallely: "Wimp what next? The commercial outfitter? Commercial dog sledding? Well like it or not that is what's next. I might add it is already being talked about.


Outfitter Cliff Wold used to say" the BWCA is going to be a biosphere reserve one day where people aren’t allowed." If you want it to be a true wilderness that will have to happen."

It is actually wrote in the Wilderness act certain exceptions like outfitters etc. are allowed and some of the suggestions brought forth are just heresay rumors started.There are obvious exceptions to the ban on commercial activity. Outfitters, guides, and towboat operators are allowed because the wilderness act grants an exception to commercial activity “to the extent necessary to serve recreation.”

Pinetree I hope you are right. However we were promised that we could keep our motor boats in the beginning. Now all but banned. We were promised we could keep 4 mile portage. Now gone. We were promised that we could keep the snowmobiles. They were banned except we were promised the border snowmobile route would remain open. They broke that promise in 1984, as the border snowmobile trail was also banned. On this day before thanksgiving ask my Indian brothers about promises made by the government.

What will they ban next things miles away from the b-dub? Like towers, logging, mining,etc……


Do a little checking with your friends in Ely. There a lot of pissed off people about the new permit system. They had meeting in Ely last week and no one is happy with the forest service. The people of Ely are being controlled by people thousands of miles away. Like the b-dub permits coming out of Kentucky. We have people starving on the range and they hire people form Kentucky to issue permits for the bwca, go figure. What do they know about the bwca????? Online permit registration. Ely has the slowest internet in the country and have little chance of getting the permits they want. This is becoming an area for people far away from Ely with no respect shown for the people of Northern Minnesota.

You speak of rumors. Do a little checking it is no secret wilderness watch is hell bent on banning all motors, including tow boats.

I don 't live in Ely but it sickens me they way we treat them, much like we treated the Indians. Happy Thanksgiving

ellahallely: " On this day before thanksgiving ask my Indian brothers about promises made by the government.


"

so what you are saying is that you are as unsophisticated about politics as 18th century Indians.

Who is in charge changes, as as the last ten years shows, policy out of Washington can change quickly.

At one time, the purpose of the Army was to keep the Indians from fighting amongst themselves. It was also the policy to keep settlers out of Indian territory.

Then a different group came to power, the role of the Army changed.

look on the bright side, the Indians eventually got gambling casinos, maybe when they legalize pot you'll get the market cornered

rofl I agree total with what you said and that is the problem. In 1978 many promises were made by Humphrey. As power has changed those promises mean nothing to politicians today, like lets say Dayton. I doubt anyone cares today if they make Humphrey a liar. So we could lose our tow boats, motor boats , outfitters, dog sled tours, etc....

Just to bad people couldn't look back and say a deal was made and we will keep it. But it is more like I go there on vacation and this is what I want. I don't want that place to become like the place I live.

rofl I am a person of the earth, my word and honesty are everything to me. If that makes me unsophisticated in anyway to you, I am okay with that

ROFL: "

ellahallely: " On this day before thanksgiving ask my Indian brothers about promises made by the government.



"

so what you are saying is that you are as unsophisticated about politics as 18th century Indians.


Who is in charge changes, as as the last ten years shows, policy out of Washington can change quickly.


At one time, the purpose of the Army was to keep the Indians from fighting amongst themselves. It was also the policy to keep settlers out of Indian territory.


Then a different group came to power, the role of the Army changed.


look on the bright side, the Indians eventually got gambling casinos, maybe when they legalize pot you'll get the market cornered"

Way to hide behind a guest account and insult people. People like you are why threads get closed and people can't find answers through the search tool. Let's just drop the issue and maybe this thread will stick around when someone comes looking for the answer that was given to the original question.

ellahallely: "Pinetree I hope you are right. However we were promised that we could keep our motor boats in the beginning. Now all but banned. We were promised we could keep 4 mile portage. Now gone. We were promised that we could keep the snowmobiles. They were banned except we were promised the border snowmobile route would remain open. They broke that promise in 1984, as the border snowmobile trail was also banned. On this day before thanksgiving ask my Indian brothers about promises made by the government.


What will they ban next things miles away from the b-dub? Like towers, logging, mining,etc……



Do a little checking with your friends in Ely. There a lot of pissed off people about the new permit system. They had meeting in Ely last week and no one is happy with the forest service. The people of Ely are being controlled by people thousands of miles away. Like the b-dub permits coming out of Kentucky. We have people starving on the range and they hire people form Kentucky to issue permits for the bwca, go figure. What do they know about the bwca????? Online permit registration. Ely has the slowest internet in the country and have little chance of getting the permits they want. This is becoming an area for people far away from Ely with no respect shown for the people of Northern Minnesota.


You speak of rumors. Do a little checking it is no secret wilderness watch is hell bent on banning all motors, including tow boats.


I don 't live in Ely but it sickens me they way we treat them, much like we treated the Indians. Happy Thanksgiving



"

Pretty extreme hyperbole and hubris. That you feel hurt is obvious, but when you go too far you undermine your own efforts.

Just a word to the wise. Happy Thanksgiving!

ellahallely: "rofl I agree total with what you said and that is the problem. In 1978 many promises were made by Humphrey. As power has changed those promises mean nothing to politicians today, like lets say Dayton. I doubt anyone cares today if they make Humphrey a liar. So we could lose our tow boats, motor boats , outfitters, dog sled tours, etc....


Just to bad people couldn't look back and say a deal was made and we will keep it. But it is more like I go there on vacation and this is what I want. I don't want that place to become like the place I live.

rofl I am a person of the earth, my word and honesty are everything to me. If that makes me unsophisticated in anyway to you, I am okay with that "

Classy response ellahallely, I like it.

timatkn: "I miss Cliff...I hope he is wrong and I think he was wrong, but it is possible.
T"

At the time Cliff was writing all those letters predicting doom and gloom about the future of the BWCA, people thought of him as being a bit "eccentric!"
Now as I look back, he was a man ahead of his time when making these bold predictions, as many of them have, or will come true in the near future.
Many recreational canoeists best watch each and every little change proposed for the BWCA, as they will affect you sooner or later. (remember, a large ant hill is built one tiny grain of sand at a time)

Years ago we found a skull and huge antlers of a huge deer on the Kawishiwi river.

Pinetree: "Years ago we found a skull and huge antlers of a huge deer on the Kawishiwi river."

Dang... worth a lot of money today!