BWCA Sawyer in business? Boundary Waters Listening Point - General Discussion
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Hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 07:53PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Anyone out there know if Superior Sawyer in Michigan is still building canoes? Sent emails about interest in a shockwave and have had no response. Thanks, Chad

 
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Canoe42
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07/23/2014 08:05PM  
The original Sawyer canoe company went out of business years ago. Superior Canoes has their molds and is making some of the old Sawyer models. Superior Canoes
 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 08:40PM  
That's the site I was on, and tried emailing !
 
07/23/2014 08:48PM  
there is a phone number.
 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 08:54PM  
Just didn't want to pay long distance ! I'm in Minneapolis. You would think they would respond to email if they want to make a sale !

 
ozarkpaddler
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07/23/2014 08:59PM  
They were recently. I know my friend Joe recently had them do some upgrading to his Mad River Monarch. I'll let him know about this thread, maybe he has an inside angle to get in touch with them? That Shockwave, btw, is a NICE boat.
 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 09:06PM  
Thanks Ozark ! I haven't paddled a shockwave yet. I do have a old 1984 summersong that is a fun boat ! Just wanting something larger for the BW. Also looking at the advantage. Just like owning something different. You just don't see many Sawyers.

 
07/23/2014 09:11PM  
quote ozarkpaddler: "That Shockwave, btw, is a NICE boat."

Yes it is! :-)

Hans Solo

 
Alan Gage
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07/23/2014 09:31PM  
quote hoggs: "Just didn't want to pay long distance ! I'm in Minneapolis. You would think they would respond to email if they want to make a sale !"

I think it's a pretty small operation and I think sometimes people in that position have enough on their plate that e-mails go on the back burner. I'm sure the vast majority of e-mails they get are just time wasters so I can't blame them.

Alan

 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 09:40PM  
Is this your Shockwave ? If so, how does it handle with a load ? I weigh about 170 plus maybe 50-60 lbs of gear. BTW I like the packers plate on the car ! Go Pack !!!

 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 09:50PM  
quote Alan Gage: "
quote hoggs: "Just didn't want to pay long distance ! I'm in Minneapolis. You would think they would respond to email if they want to make a sale !"

I think it's a pretty small operation and I think sometimes people in that position have enough on their plate that e-mails go on the back burner. I'm sure the vast majority of e-mails they get are just time wasters so I can't blame them.

Alan"

That's true !

 
07/23/2014 09:58PM  
quote hoggs: "Is this your Shockwave ? If so, how does it handle with a load ? I weigh about 170 plus maybe 50-60 lbs of gear. BTW I like the packers plate on the car ! Go Pack !!!"

Yes hoggs, that's my late-80's Sawyer Shockwave from the original Sawyer Canoe Company of Oscoda, Michigan.

It handles a load and me quite well. I'm 6' 4" and 210-pounds and I'm not much for packing light. Additional pictures below with extra gear in the Shockwave. (Taken on the Lower Wisconsin River this past Memorial Day Weekend.)

I'm also happy to report that my Shockwave did not come from the "hogged" mold, (no pun intended), and its hull and lay-up are impeccable. That's saying something because Sawyer's quality control during the 80's and 90's was really hit or miss.

Hans Solo

GO PACK!!!

 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/23/2014 10:39PM  
Hogged ? meaning warped ? have you heard that the new Sawyers have this. Thanks again !

 
07/24/2014 08:56AM  
quote hoggs: "Just didn't want to pay long distance ! I'm in Minneapolis. You would think they would respond to email if they want to make a sale !"

If you are looking to drop well over $1000 on a canoe why let a dollar or two in phone charges get in the way?

 
07/24/2014 10:22AM  
quote nofish: "
quote hoggs: "Just didn't want to pay long distance ! I'm in Minneapolis. You would think they would respond to email if they want to make a sale !"

If you are looking to drop well over $1000 on a canoe why let a dollar or two in phone charges get in the way? "

I too took a double take on this one... I also had to remind myself that there are still long distance charges on phone, although I haven't had one of those type phones since the EARLY 90's.

 
07/24/2014 11:10AM  
quote hoggs: "Hogged ? meaning warped ? have you heard that the new sawyers have this. Thanks again !"

Definition of "hogged" in regards to a boats hull; "a canoe with a bent-in keel or keel-line."

Hogged Hulls

Apparently some of the Shockwaves that were produced by Sawyer Canoe of Oscoda, Michigan had "hogged" hulls. It's my understanding though that this was more of an issue with the PVC "cored" boats than the all fabric canoes, (i.e., the Goldenglass & Expedition Kevlar hulls), due to Sawyer's manufacturing process.

As much as I love many of Sawyer canoes, their "cored" boats left something to be desired. Their PVC "cored" Ultra-light lay-ups could never hold a candle to Wenonahs. (One of the many reasons why I never owned a "cored" Sawyer canoe.)

As far as what molds, or the hull integrity of Shockwaves produced by Superior Canoes of Portalnd, Michigan, I can't really say. I wish I knew though, because I have seriously considered ordering another Shockwave if Superior Canoes is producing quality hulls.

If and when you're able to contact someone at Superior Canoes, it's something I inquire about with regards to the Shockwave's construction.

Hans Solo
 
hoggs
Guest Paddler
  
07/24/2014 03:20PM  
I no longer use a landline phone, but have used cell in the past and had charges well over a dollar or two ! I had just asked them a few simple questions. Most people use e-mail these days! If I treated every lead this way when I was in sales, I would be fired! Who knows, maybe there is a reason! "E-mail down?"

Thanks again Hans!! I will check on that mold if I talk to them! I will be sure to give a update!

 
07/24/2014 04:25PM  
Just curious. What cell phone provider are you using that charges high prices for a long distance call?

Every carrier I've been with a call like that would cost me nothing more than a few minutes from my allotted total. Haven't heard of additional long distance fees being charged on top of that.

I don't know how they run their company but I've done a ton of B2B sales over the years and there are a shockingly large number of companies out there that still operate "old school" style. These people live and die by phone and fax. Email for them is nothing more than an annoyance that they'll get around to eventually.

 
joewildlife
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07/24/2014 09:51PM  
Scott Smith owns Superior Sawyer canoes, and no, he's not an email guy. By gosh, just CALL HIM!

Scott's craftsmanship is impeccable! He builds absolutely beautiful boats! I am VERY familiar with Sawyer canoes built from the early 80's through the early 2000's. Some were very nice, and some were absolute junk. The company changed hands several times during that time period. But I can assure you, if you buy one from Scott, you will get a perfect boat.

He built a Shockwave for a friend, and I love that boat. Only complaint is that it is heavy, and it is heavy because Scott builds expedition tough Kevlar boats. We joke about how you need to agree to a price of a Shockwave of a target weight. For every pound over the target weight, you get $100 off the purchase price. That may be the only way to get Scott to build you a lightweight boat! :)

I personally had perhaps the last SAWYER Shockwave every built. (NOT Superior Shockwave). It had some gel coat problems and blemishes, and the gunwale and thwart work (aluminum) looked like it was done by an 8 year old. I spent a lot of time fixing that boat up for sale. But the hull was sound. And she is a fast boat.

Joe

 
07/24/2014 10:13PM  

Great stuff Joe Wildlife! Thanks for the info regarding Superior Canoes/Sawyer Canoes. It's great that Scott has keep many of Sawyer's old solo models alive and is building them they way they should be built.

As I mentioned in a reply to Hoggs earlier, I'd love to have another Shockwave, partially because it's a favorite of my son. Your feedback only encourages that desire.

I also love the Shockwave and I agree with everything you've said. Although there are many other paddlers that feel as we do, I've also read reports that some feel it's a "dated" design. To that I say, so what! If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Wenonah Advantage has been around approx. 30-years and it's still a decent solo canoe too IMHO.

As much as I love the old Sawyer DY Specials too, (I own three of them), the Shockwave performs better in shallow water and is less reluctant to turn than the DY Special.

Happy to hear that a new Shockwave can still be had.

Hans Solo
 
joewildlife
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07/25/2014 10:29AM  


This is my buddy's Shockwave that Scott Smith of Superior Sawyer canoes built circa 2010.

It has fantastic carbon gunwales and an expedition style tractor seat that flips over to become an excellent portage yoke. It has a rudder. It is a very sporty and fast canoe. Dated design? Well, it was originally designed 30+ years ago as a USCA racer, and it is/was a good one, so in that regard, perhaps it is dated. But as a fast solo canoe that is comfortably stable and can handle a load, it is not dated at all. I think the Shockwave design looks cool. This one has a camo skin on it, too. I think it is more akin to a Wenonah Voyageur than an Advantage, based on size and capacity.

I like to have things that are a little different, and root for the underdog. Hence my love of the expedition canoes designed by Verlen Kruger. I now own two Sawyer Loons, a Mad River Monarch, and a Kruger Sea Wind. A couple years ago, I helped sell a bunch of the last Sawyer canoes ever made, that were taken from the factory just as it was foreclosed on. Many of the Sawyer molds were sold to Scott Smith at the same time. While his trademark canoe is the Superior Expedition that he designed, he still will build you a Sawyer. The small canoe building business is a tough one. Getting a Superior or Kruger canoe now requires money, time, and the hope that both owners can hang in there financially long enough to build you a boat.

Joe


 
07/25/2014 03:46PM  

Once again Joe, thanks for the great information.

I do need to disagree with you on the Shockwave, Advantage and Wenonah Voyager comparison though. The Wenonah Voyager has been my mainstay tripping solo canoe for over ten-years now, and in addition to owning several DY Specials and a Sawyer Shockwave for 25-years plus, I've spent a fair amount of time in a Wenonah Advantage as well.

Aside from the Voyager being approx. a foot longer than the aforementioned solo canoes, it's also deeper. All specs aside, from my personal experience, the Voyager handles a lot more cargo/load, and is less affected by a load than the Advantage, Shockwave, and the DY Special. The Voyager is also noticeably faster, although not drastically faster than the Shockwave, DY Special, or the Advantage.

Nevertheless, they're all good Cruising/Touring/Tripping canoes IMHO and it would be hard to go wrong with any of them. Although similar, each one of those canoes has it's own "personality" so to speak.

Hans Solo
 
joewildlife
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07/25/2014 09:24PM  
Hans,
I thought the Shockwave is about the same length as the Voyageur, and the Advantage a foot or so shorter... I looked it up and stand corrected. I was confusing the Advantage with the 16' Bell Magic.

Shockwave, 16'8"
Advantage, 16'6"
Voyager, 17'6"

I've paddled the Magic and the Shockwave but not the Wenonahs. I'd have a hard time choosing between the four, if I wasn't partial to the Shockwave already.

Joe


 
ozarkpaddler
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07/28/2014 09:37AM  
quote joewildlife: "Hans,
I thought the Shockwave is about the same length as the Voyageur, and the Advantage a foot or so shorter... I looked it up and stand corrected. I was confusing the Advantage with the 16' Bell Magic.
Shockwave, 16'8"
Advantage, 16'6"
Voyager, 17'6"
I've paddled the Magic and the Shockwave but not the Wenonahs. I'd have a hard time choosing between the four, if I wasn't partial to the Shockwave already.

Joe

"


I remember looking at that boat and thinking "This might be interesting." I was surprised that I enjoyed the boat enough to want one! Maybe one of these days? But probably not camo (LOL)!

 
CanoeBeyond
  
09/22/2016 12:54PM  
quote joewildlife: "Hans,
I thought the Shockwave is about the same length as the Voyageur, and the Advantage a foot or so shorter... I looked it up and stand corrected. I was confusing the Advantage with the 16' Bell Magic.

Shockwave, 16'8"
Advantage, 16'6"
Voyager, 17'6"
I've paddled the Magic and the Shockwave but not the Wenonahs. I'd have a hard time choosing between the four, if I wasn't partial to the Shockwave already."

To consolidate and add a couple (I know, the thread is 2 years old). By length:

Bell/Northstar Magic: 16'0"
Wenonah Advantage: 16'6"
Sawyer DY Special: 16'8"
Sawyer Shockwave: 16'8"
Savage River Blackwater: 17'0"
Wenonah Voyager: 17'6"

The first 5 of the above 6 are currently legal in most places as stock C1 racing canoes. I have the Magic, DY Special and Shockwave and have paddled the Blackwater extensively. Have also paddled and competed against the 2 Wenonahs quite a few times. The Voyager is not legal in any sanctioned stock race that I know of but it's faster than the others excepting the Blackwater. My take (slower to faster): The Magic is a bit slower than the next 3. It is however very good in waves and turns the easiest. The next 3 are very close in speed, but I feel the Shockwave and DY Special are better in wind and waves than the Advantage. I've GPSed and time trialed the DY and Shockwave many times and for me (200 lbs) they're indistinguishable in speed. The general consensus seems to be that the Shockwave works better for lighter paddlers. You can see why this is by looking at the hull. The Blackwater is far and away the fastest. Why it's allowed on the NY stock C1 list I don't know. It's 17'0" (seems they relaxed the 16'8" limit to allow it). It is also much too narrow to meet stock specs. Of course it's faster as it's longer and much narrower than the other allowed C1 stock racers. I'd rate it as about the same speed as a J-180 C1 racing canoe. Then again it's from a NY maker. Politics?
 
Canoe42
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09/22/2016 10:43PM  

It handles a load and me quite well. I'm 6' 4" and 210-pounds and I'm not much for packing light.

Hans Solo

Not much for packing light. I can attest to that ; )
 
andym
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09/23/2016 10:43PM  
And in the meantime, the website for Superior canoes is gone. Did he retire or the company close?
 
joewildlife
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09/24/2016 12:38PM  
I spoke with Scott not long ago. His business is at a crossroads and he is not taking new orders. He got a real job and is making money. He cant build canoes in his attached garage. No telling if or when he will get started up again.


I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone."
 
joewildlife
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09/24/2016 12:38PM  
I spoke with Scott not long ago. His business is at a crossroads and he is not taking new orders. He got a real job and is making money. He cant build canoes in his attached garage. No telling if or when he will get started up again.


I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone."
 
joewildlife
distinguished member(605)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/24/2016 12:38PM  
I spoke with Scott not long ago. His business is at a crossroads and he is not taking new orders. He got a real job and is making money. He cant build canoes in his attached garage. No telling if or when he will get started up again.


I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone."
 
joewildlife
distinguished member(605)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/24/2016 12:38PM  
I spoke with Scott not long ago. His business is at a crossroads and he is not taking new orders. He got a real job and is making money. He cant build canoes in his attached garage. No telling if or when he will get started up again.


I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone."
 
joewildlife
distinguished member(605)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/24/2016 12:38PM  
I spoke with Scott not long ago. His business is at a crossroads and he is not taking new orders. He got a real job and is making money. He cant build canoes in his attached garage. No telling if or when he will get started up again.


I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone."
 
andym
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09/24/2016 12:57PM  
Darn. I make fun of Joe and the forum does it to me!
 
andym
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09/24/2016 12:57PM  
quote joewildlife: "I've heard it said, "if I won a million dollars, I would build canoes until it was gone.""


I've heard that over and over again!

Just kidding and thanks for the up to date info. I can definitely imagine that it is a tough business. Besides all the usual problems with small scale production of niche items, canoes are pretty hard to ship.

And, it is great that the molds are around if he ever wants to start again or sell to someone else.
 
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