BWCA Insulated Box Boundary Waters Winter Camping and Activities
Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
   Winter Camping and Activities
      Insulated Box     

Author

Text

SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/22/2015 08:22AM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
I'm thinking of making an insulated box to keep certain pieces of gear (gear that doesn't function as well in the cold) warm during my winter trips. The things I'm thinking of specifically are: batteries, power bank, headlamp, phone, stove, water.
I have a spare Pelican Case (fairly large) that I would like to insulate somehow. I know the case is large but I'm not overly concerned about the size or weight as most of my trips are not that far from my truck. I would put a Nalgene filled with boiling water (in a sock) into the case (much like we do with a Nalgene in the bottom of a sleeping bag at night in order to have a source of heat inside the case. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could use to insulate the case? I'm thinking Reflectix, but I'm not sure that will be sufficient as that will not actually insulate. I have an Exped Downmat that is going into the trash as it is full of holes...I'm wondering if I could use the insulation from it somehow....

Any thoughts or suggestions on this idea?
 
Reply    Reply with Quote    Print Top Bottom Previous Next
hikenbike
member (5)member
  
09/22/2015 08:36AM  
Reflectix might be the ticket. Perhaps you could tailor a box to maximize the room inside of the pelican. Add the water bottle and bury the whole thing in the snow and it will stay warm overnight for sure.
09/22/2015 08:59AM  
Spray foam...closed cell type. About an inch or two thick.
Trim to fit your needs.
Kawishiwashy
distinguished member (157)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/22/2015 09:02AM  
Did a quick online search and found what I was thinking of. It's that construction styrofoam they use for insulation. Here are the specs: STYROFOAM R5 Faced Polystyrene Foam Board Insulation (Common: 0.75-in x 4-ft x 8-ft; Actual: 0.687-in x 3.937-ft x 7.875-ft) They come in different thicknesses, but I thought the 3/4" would work well for your application. You could make a box within your box.
09/22/2015 09:59AM  
Foam of many types will work to insulate a Pelican case.
Think of what condensation may do to any moisture sensitive gear, especially if you add a hot bottle of water. What happens to your camera, brought into a warm car after being out in the cold?

Save the down from that downmat, that stuff isn't cheap! Good source for a DIY overstuffed down bag or quilt.

butthead
SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/22/2015 10:17AM  
Thanks for the input so far guys....I'll have to do a test in regards to the moisture from the water bottle. I guess another option would be to use a cooler (it's already insulated right?). Hmmmm my mind is going now!
09/22/2015 10:33AM  
quote SteveElms73: "Thanks for the input so far guys....I'll have to do a test in regards to the moisture from the water bottle. I guess another option would be to use a cooler (it's already insulated right?). Hmmmm my mind is going now!"


Heat rises so make sure the "cooler" you chose has a good lid. It is far more important for keeping it warm than it is for keeping things cold. Some of my coolers have sub-par lids.
09/22/2015 11:06AM  
Use a cooler, line it with a towel and use a couple of hand warmer packets for the heat source.
inspector13
distinguished member(4169)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
09/22/2015 11:40AM  

Reflextix is really only good at being a radiant barrier. I use it on the south and western walls of my post frame building to keep the temperature down when the sun warms the metal walls in the summer.

schweady
distinguished member(8070)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
09/22/2015 01:51PM  
Good luck. And during the day, carry whatever is feasible inside inner pockets close to your body, or even -- for the smallest items like small batteries -- inside your choppers. I have done this when ice fishing out in the elements or on day trips such as our winter hikes out to the Apostle Islands ice caves or to the Hegman pictographs. Worked well for keeping the camera, gps, and their spare batteries happy (although lens fogging can get to be a problem). Nothing, however, seemed to get me more than one or two very quick photos out of my iPhone at -10F.
SevenofNine
distinguished member(2472)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/22/2015 05:31PM  
Obviously you are going to look for the greatest R factor based on whatever you use. A chemical hand warmer sounds like the best source to keep things warm. Once you complete the box I would test things out and monitor temperature over a period of time.
Mnpat
distinguished member (158)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/22/2015 07:49PM  
i use soft coolers in the winter for my food and drinks. If its really cold I put one soft cooler inside of another. Lightweight and packable for the way out. if its -40 bury coolers in snowpile.
09/23/2015 12:45AM  
Excellent advice. Especially the last one. Snow is an unreal insulator.But better is air that is stagnant. Use both. I would work with what is given. Though it will makes moisture if it melts--- but still-- 30F (rough temp of inside a snow cave) ,, is 50F warmer then -20F. And that 50F difference "feels" the same as the difference from 30F to 80F. (even though many disagree) --- but the energy involved to raise a temp 30F to 80F is much greater due to increased moisture (water vapor) that warmer air provides. Sorry for the Physics 101-- but Snow/air is a great- great "R" value and provided for free and no hauling or weight (both in and out) in most winter camping situations.
NotLight
distinguished member(1262)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/23/2015 05:42AM  
Electronics warming strategies I learned last year:

Anything you can power with energizer ultimate lithium batteries is good. They will carry their full charge down to almost -20F, supposedly. Regular alkaline batteries will only work until about 14F, if I remember correctly. I think the rechargeable lithium batteries will work at 32F with half capacity, and at 0F with very little capacity.

The rechargeables have to be much warmer to safely recharge I believe, and so it may be a better bet to bring extra batteries in winter vs a recharger - unless it is a small charger that you can keep warm in your jacket. Some batteries lose charge after being frozen, but I don't remember which.

Liquid crystal displays on cameras will slow down as they freeze - I don't remember the absolute low temperature range though. AMOLED displays from Samsung, like on their NX300M camera, do not use a liquid, and will work better below freezing than normal liquid crystal displays - assuming the rest of the camera functions. You can get Nikon/canon lens adapters for the NX300M and use a manual focus lens.

But, you know way more about cameras. You can see where some kind of camera that took energizer ultimate lithium batteries in some form, was not dependent on an LED screen, had no moving parts in the body, and a manual focus lens might do better in cold weather.

You could keep stuff warm inside your pelican box using some of the pink foamboard from home depot, and some hand warmers. Cut the foam to the shape of your box and duct tape the seams. You would probably want to keep the camera stuff in plastic bags inside the "cooler" though for condensation. Problem is, I think the hand warmers require some moisture? In that case you'd want a hot water bottle or hot chunk of rock or metal, etc.

Another strategy is to try to keep the camera warm once it is out of your jacket. Even a thin foam or neoprene over the camera body and a seperate covering over the lens body will help a lot. It's not even so much the insulation, but that a covering will stop convective heat loss from any light breeze.

It is also good to keep electronics close to your body, inside your jacket. I bought a Patagonia R1 shirt, based on a recommendation from this site, which has a small chest pocket. I also got one of these anoraks to try. I used one of these neck wallets last winter for my phone. It works well, but tends to get tangled with your camera if you are hanging a camera under your jacket with a neck strap.

SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/23/2015 08:53AM  
Great insight guys thanks a ton. I think what I may try is sticking my smaller cooler in the snow (I do this too on my winter trips with my food, etc to keep it from freezing) and testing it out with the hot water bottle and/or the hand warmers and see which yields better results, moisture, etc.

I'll report back after I try it out!
schweady
distinguished member(8070)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
09/23/2015 08:57AM  
Another thought - One of the best tips I learned regarding keeping things cold longer on our summer trips applies in your case, also -- reduce convection. Reducing the transfer of heat across open air space is an important factor as a container is emptied of its items. We have used lightly crumpled newspaper inside our insulated food pack to fill this empty void as it grows after each meal. This has resulted in a very noticeable improvement for us. Some spare smaller pieces of clothing might serve well, too. You probably have a set volume of material to keep warm, but this might be something to keep in mind if you remove just a few items for a while.
Cedarboy
distinguished member(3437)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/23/2015 12:20PM  
Switching to lithium batteries for cold use should be your first step.
CB
SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/23/2015 12:32PM  
I would if I could but the batteries I'm concerned about are proprietary (i.e Nikon batteries, Petzl battery, etc).
mc2mens
distinguished member(3311)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
10/21/2015 06:32PM  
quote butthead: "Foam of many types will work to insulate a Pelican case.
Think of what condensation may do to any moisture sensitive gear, especially if you add a hot bottle of water. What happens to your camera, brought into a warm car after being out in the cold?


Save the down from that downmat, that stuff isn't cheap! Good source for a DIY overstuffed down bag or quilt.


butthead"


Awww geez...I wish I'd have thought about that 2 weeks ago when I threw out the old pad.
CrookedPaddler1
distinguished member(1363)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
10/22/2015 08:44AM  
When I ran sled dogs, I just used a plain old cooler.....although i called them "warmers" in the winter. High quality cooler, put a couple of hot water bottles in them if you want to keep the temperature a little warmer.
hubben
senior member (68)senior membersenior member
  
11/07/2015 01:00AM  
I'm wondering if a small hamster running on a wheel inside an insulated Pelican box wouldn't generate enough body heat to keep things above freezing temperature?
11/14/2015 09:40AM  
quote hubben: "I'm wondering if a small hamster running on a wheel inside an insulated Pelican box wouldn't generate enough body heat to keep things above freezing temperature? "

Now that is "thinking" outside the box....?
IglooEd
member (9)member
  
12/24/2015 09:20PM  
quote CrookedPaddler1: "When I ran sled dogs, I just used a plain old cooler.....although i called them "warmers" in the winter. High quality cooler, put a couple of hot water bottles in them if you want to keep the temperature a little warmer. "

Ha, it probably would work.
Myself, I made a cooler/warmer using 1/2 an ensolite foam pad. I cut the pad into the proper size squares and hot glued them into a box shape. The box was sized for a slip fit into a plastic milk crate. I also had a nylon stuff sack sewn so it fit between the box and the crate. The bag is more to keep the snow off the foam box than stop air leakage.
The lid for the box was a square of the foam that fit snugly into the foam box. If I had less things to keep warm, I just pushed the lid down lower to minimize the dead air space/interior surface area.
I used this for food as I bring fresh foods on my trips and also use a pulk.
I take fresh greens for salads and precooked foods like roast beef...
It takes some practice but the greens can be kept from freezing with the warm water bottle method as well as the mass of the contents in the insulated box.
I take the cooler into my igloo at night but burying it in the snow would be just as effective.
The milk crate keeps the foam box nice and square so the lid seals. The crate can be used as a camp chair.
The lid probably wouldn't stay sealed in the soft sided pouch you are wanting to use.... ? Enter at your own risk :)
SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/19/2016 01:30PM  
So I tried the simple cooler idea and it didn't work. It was a smaller Coleman cooler (nothing fancy - maybe and 18 can capacity) and inside I placed my Nalgene with boiling water, and placed that bottle in a wool sock (not sure why, maybe habit lol). By morning the water and everything in the cooler was stone cold. Looks like I'm off to the pet store to pick me up a couple hamsters ;)
OldFingers57
distinguished member(4990)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
01/19/2016 04:23PM  
quote SteveElms73: "So I tried the simple cooler idea and it didn't work. It was a smaller Coleman cooler (nothing fancy - maybe and 18 can capacity) and inside I placed my Nalgene with boiling water, and placed that bottle in a wool sock (not sure why, maybe habit lol). By morning the water and everything in the cooler was stone cold. Looks like I'm off to the pet store to pick me up a couple hamsters ;)"


The larger the cooler the more heat you need in it. If you would have maybe used a smaller cooler and have it packed tightly with the gear and water bottle without the sock. Also how many hours was the hot water bottle in there?
SteveElms73
distinguished member (423)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/19/2016 04:26PM  
Ya the cooler wasn't one of the full sized ones it was the size down. It was pretty packed with my gear but there was a lot of dead space in there still. I can't say how many hours it was left in the cooler but it was overnight. I guess I was comparing how warm my Nalgene is after a cold night at the bottom of my sleeping bag but logically it makes sense that it would not stay nearly as insulated. I think I was more surprised that there was not one tiny bit of warmth left in it at all.
OldFingers57
distinguished member(4990)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
01/19/2016 05:00PM  
quote SteveElms73: "Ya the cooler wasn't one of the full sized ones it was the size down. It was pretty packed with my gear but there was a lot of dead space in there still. I can't say how many hours it was left in the cooler but it was overnight. I guess I was comparing how warm my Nalgene is after a cold night at the bottom of my sleeping bag but logically it makes sense that it would not stay nearly as insulated. I think I was more surprised that there was not one tiny bit of warmth left in it at all."


Well your body heat is also keeping the Nalgene in your sleeping bag warm. plus it is not losing it as fast as there is not that big of a heat differential between you and the water bottle as there is between the water bottle and the gear in the cooler.
NotLight
distinguished member(1262)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/19/2016 05:17PM  

The $$$ coolers seem to benefit significantly from a very tight air seal. Maybe try the same cooler again but with some foam weather stripping?
 
Reply    Reply with Quote    Print Top Bottom Previous Next