I'm going to buy another used outfitter canoe when I go up to BWCA this October. I already have two tandems for our family trips up there in the summer, but need another canoe because we will likely be expanding those summer trips from four or five people to seven or eight people (a couple of which will be younger kids).

To give us some flexibility, I'm looking at the bigger canoes that are somewhat dedicated to three or more paddlers. I need a canoe that's pretty stable since 1) there will likely be novice paddlers in it if I'm not in it, and 2) it may be where we seat my elderly dad as his age advances and he becomes more of a rider than a paddler.

At this point, I've narrowed it down to a SR Quetico 18.5, a Wenonah Seneca, and a Bell Northshore.

I've read a lot of the older posts on here about these canoes, but was just wondering how these three paddle when you only have two people in them. This boat won't be my primary tandem boat, but still may often have only a couple people in it.

Thanks.

Can't speak to the Souris River, Seneca, or Northshore but the Wenonah Minnesota 3 handles very well with 2 people aboard and is very fast. It is a long, 20' canoe, however.

They work well for 2 paddlers. My issue has been that they need to be loaded enough so they are not just a bubble floating in the breeze.

I picked up a SR 18.5 in July. We had a 4 yr old in the middle. It was very windy 20-30 mph winds while trying to fish. It handled well and is very stable.

I own 3 SR Q18.5 canoes and most of the time they are used tandem. A very stable platform in nasty weather and while fishing. They allow the flexibility for 3 people if needed. Not the fastest boat on the water but for the average non racing paddlers I doubt anyone could tell any difference in speed.

I have paddled a Wenonah Seneca and own a SR 18.5. I bought my SR from Sawbill a few years ago and it's worked out great both as a tandem and a quadruple with 2 young kids sitting side by side.

I have had no issues paddling them with only 2 people in them. As with most canoes the center of gravity gets a little high without a load. Depending on the load I take 2 minutes to take the third seat out.

Yes.

We often rent one when we have an odd-numbered group, but usually wind up with just 2 of us fishing out of it during our basecampjng stay. A fine craft.

Just a couple of thoughts:

I've been on a number of trips with younger kids and have often found that an adult with good skills can do pretty well paddling tandem with a kid. Other times, having a kid duff is the right choice. With a group of 7, more often that not there's been a solo canoe added to the group. (Max number of canoes at 4) Adds a lot of versatility to the trip.

One other option is to have a third seat installed in a tandem. That's what they do at the Scout canoe base with Champlains and they do sell them off from time to time. Otherwise, adding a third seat to a standard one is easy enough. That works pretty well if the overall payload is not excessive and the length makes it quite manageable for going tandem also. The Seneca is obviously a bit longer. That may be either good or bad, depending on your needs. No personal experience with the SR or Bell (now Northstar).

+1 re the MN 3. If you like the MN II, you'd also like the 3.

Ditto what others have said. I have an SR 18.5 and more often trip with it as a tandem than with 3 people. It works great both ways. I really appreciate the flexibility.

I have the SR18.5 and have yet to use it as a three person canoe, use it as a tandem however. Works well loaded or even with just two guys fishing in it, never had any wind problems with it. If everyone in your group are paddling 17's and your paddling an 18.5 watch out they don't load your canoe first because if they do they will have nearly empty canoes, those 18.5s hold a lot of gear. FRED

Yes they do. We purchased an SR Q 18.5 used from VNO 6/7 years ago and are very pleased with it. It is very versatile. We've used it for the whole family (2 kids side by side and a dog) and more often it gets used as a tandem. I've even used it tandem on daddy/daughter trips w/ my younger daughter this year at age 7 and my older daughter last year at age 9. We found the Seneca and Northshore to be bigger than we liked for tandem when we decided on the SR Q18.5.

Another good option but probably hard to find used at an outfitter would be a Bell Northwoods or Northstar Northwind 18. We really liked the Bell Northwoods but the fall we purchased our canoe the used Northwoods we found were $500-$600 more than the SR we bought.

Used the SR 18.5 for 10 years or so. Works well with 2 as long as you are properly weight distributed. When taking 3, We take a third paddle for the middle seat and it is a backup if needed. In my case, I paddled stern and let the 2 forward change sides at will and made any adjustments when needed. In windy conditions, I would dictate which side they paddled on as needed. It is my opinion that middle seat paddler is not a bored paddler and not cold from just sitting there. It is not about the efficiency of that paddler.

The longer canoes will fit a third or fourth ( if small) person. But they will be slower than a shorter canoe because there is more skin friction to over come if the third or fourth is a non paddler.

If you have kids who bicker in the back seat of the car, a side by side center seat is going to be a problem. Then you will have to seat them in tandem but la la milk crates work fine.

There was a recent thread about kids in a Champlain and thats what the owner did.

We have a Souris River Wilderness 18 and a Wenonah Odyssey.. Our third person thinks she is a non paddling person. She is a dog.. If we dont have her and the boat is empty ( no cargo) particularly the Odyssey is skittish. Its always a good idea to have some load in the middle.

We havent paddled either with a real third paddler. But we have been on some really big lakes with gnarly conditions ( Superior)

Several good comments already about larger canoes with only 2 paddlers. I would add:

1) Weight distribution is absolutely critical. The 2 paddlers in the longer boats need to be adults and even then be sure you have proper weight balance. If hauling packs, adjust pack positions to get the balance needed. Don't be afraid to use rocks/boulders to also get it right. For example - rocks can be put in the front nose for maximum effect.
2) Long canoes are more difficult to turn, and it can be impossible to turn/manage in a wind if not weight balanced. If you prefer to paddle tight rivers, this might be a factor to stick to a shorter design. Open water turning is not a problem. An experienced bow paddler can make the stern paddler job much easier in a turn.
3) My personal experience is with the 20 ft Bell Northshore. Contrary to other comments, I found the Northshore was as fast as the 16 and 17 ft designs - even heavily loaded. If there was "more skin resistance" I could not detect it. I have made about 12-15 week long trips in the Northshore.
4) The Northshore is also highly stable (both primary and secondary) when empty, with 2 paddlers, or fully loaded. I actually preferred it when bringing newbies along because I had great confidence in the boat (not the paddlers!)
5) The longer boats also have a more shallow draft and hence were easier to get through shallow water.

Not a lot of folks have paddled a Bell Northshore, so I wanted to add my experience for your consideration. For what it is worth, Stu has good praise for the Northshore for same reasons. Not dropping names, but he has paddled a lot of miles in it and has a broad sense of comparison to similar boats.

Old Hoosier

Read John Winters The Shape of the Canoe. David Yost does not publish much but both are in agreement about many aspects of canoe design.

Also read Archimedes Principle.

There is grounding in science, not opinion. The trouble with anectdotes is that comparisons are not measured in identical conditons and with accurate measures. Also the paddlers horsepower is often unknown.

Designers make boats for different sized paddlers because of skin friction .

There is often much more information available than many care to read and learn; the eyes glass over easy.. if so don't read. a little John Winters

During a 2012 Quetico Solo trip, I came across a couple from Idaho who were on a thirty-two day canoe trip. They were using a Minnesota III @ 20', with the center seat removed. (pictured below)

They originally purchased the canoe to accommodate her elderly father. After he pssed away, they removed the center seat and used the Minnesota III as their "super tripper".

They were in their 50's, (for what it's worth), and were experienced paddlers and in good shape. They commented that they loved the extra capacity and the performance of the Minnesota III as a tandem. They felt the canoe was well suited for Quetico-Superior tripping, even for trips of a week or two.

Hans Solo

I paddled a III once, it would be great on those long lakes in Quetico, plus for a couple, the extra feet of separation could be a blessing ;)

The Bell Northshore does great as a tandem canoe. It even paddles okay solo, but I would never take it on a solo trip, just for early morning or late evening cruises. Unless you are really packed heavily, you will have lots of empty space. It also becomes hard for the bow and stern paddlers to hand stuff to each other-there is a lot of room between them.

I've taken a Quetico 18.5 many times tandem. Works just fine.

Thanks to everyone for the great info.

quote HansSolo: " "

I hope they never run into any sizable winds with their load situated that way. Seems like a 20' canoe with two people would allow loading with a lower center of gravity.

quote schweady: "

quote HansSolo: " "

I hope they never run into any sizable winds with their load situated that way. Seems like a 20' canoe with two people would allow loading with a lower center of gravity.
"

First thing I saw also.

We've used the Seneca and the Quetico 18.5 both as tandems and with duffers. Both were a little beat up. They both oil canned pretty good but all things being equal I preferred the Seneca. I felt like it fit me better.

quote schweady: "

quote HansSolo: " "

I hope they never run into any sizable winds with their load situated that way. Seems like a 20' canoe with two people would allow loading with a lower center of gravity.
"

that looks like a sail !

on skin friction:
let's keep in mind that we are talking about canoes, the difference might be an 1/8th mph between canoes, something you are not going to detect, the paddlers in the slower canoe will just have to work a little harder, in fact being the canoe is longer the "faster" boat with less skin friction may be left behind if the 2 paddlers in the longer boat are more efficient paddlers

quote ZaraSp00k: "I paddled a III once, it would be great on those long lakes in Quetico, plus for a couple, the extra feet of separation could be a blessing ;)"

I usually go with an 18.5ft. boat (Northwoods) but took a 16.5 foot boat a couple of years ago. There was still enough space, but I really missed the extra length for fishing. I didn't have to worry about snagging the bow paddler.

I'm not sure that's what you were getting at, but it actually was a blessing.

yellowcanoe: "The longer canoes will fit a third or fourth ( if small) person. But they will be slower than a shorter canoe because there is more skin friction to over come if the third or fourth is a non paddler."

Other things being equal longer boats are faster than shorter ones. Canoes are displacement hulls, so the same basic rules apply as to other displacement hulls.

From sail magazine:
"the formula for maximum hull speed is (the maximum speed a boat can travel without surfing), it is commonly calculated by the formula 1.34 x LWL, where LWL is the waterline length in feet. For example, a boat with a 20-foot waterline length would have a hull speed of 6 knots, and a boat with a 40-foot waterline would have a hull speed of 8.5 knots."

Surfing, in this context, is when the boat hull is able to get out of the water and ride on top, like a fast waterski speed-boat or a Hobie cat. Except with odd cases like outriggers in pacific swells canoes don't surf.

As a proof point you will notice that canoe racing associations limit the length of boats. The racers are not trying to get the shortest boat they can (to eliminate skin friction, as you claim) but rather the longest boat the rules allow to increase the maximum hull speed.

18.5 SR works very well and is faster than my 17 ft. SR. If base camping with a serious load and likely 3 times over any portages, you will have very little stability issues, but will go somewhat slower.

Think about it like this.

450 lbs of people is going to displace what it displaces regardless of canoe shape.

Would you rather paddle that displacement across a shorter fatter area or a longer skinnier area. That's why longer boats are faster.

ricwoz: "

yellowcanoe: "The longer canoes will fit a third or fourth ( if small) person. But they will be slower than a shorter canoe because there is more skin friction to over come if the third or fourth is a non paddler."

Other things being equal longer boats are faster than shorter ones. Canoes are displacement hulls, so the same basic rules apply as to other displacement hulls.


From sail magazine:
"the formula for maximum hull speed is (the maximum speed a boat can travel without surfing), it is commonly calculated by the formula 1.34 x LWL, where LWL is the waterline length in feet. For example, a boat with a 20-foot waterline length would have a hull speed of 6 knots, and a boat with a 40-foot waterline would have a hull speed of 8.5 knots."


Surfing, in this context, is when the boat hull is able to get out of the water and ride on top, like a fast waterski speed-boat or a Hobie cat. Except with odd cases like outriggers in pacific swells canoes don't surf.


As a proof point you will notice that canoe racing associations limit the length of boats. The racers are not trying to get the shortest boat they can (to eliminate skin friction, as you claim) but rather the longest boat the rules allow to increase the maximum hull speed. "

You missed the point entirely for recreational paddlers.
Your discussion centers on theoretical maximum hull speed. That is the correct term for the formula. It is determined by the wave making resistance at various lengths.
Skin friction however kicks into play at lower horsepower input. For the non trained racer or recreational paddler skin friction comes into play first Designers make different size boats ( different length while retaining the proportions) for different sized and input paddlers.

Its not what I claim. I know nothing that I haven't learned from canoe designers in person
Boats are not inherently faster It is a partnership between the attributes of a paddler and their boat.. Short fat boats arent as much fun as they tend to wander.. longer skinnier boats track better because of their block coefficient. We pay designers because they understand the many faceted principles at play. Math counts
Some reading
why longer may not be better

My friend and marathon canoe racer Shawn Burke has put together some material on the science of paddling.. Yes it is a science
The whole website is interesting though some of it makes my eyes glaze

Math anyone? Here is a formula that integrates wave making resistance and skin friction with speed Its a drag

Shawn being in training for racing quite all the time does not have to worry as much about skin friction.

Yellowcanoe: No, I did not miss the point entirely.

You said, and I quote, "The longer canoes will fit a third or fourth ( if small) person. But they will be slower than a shorter canoe because there is more skin friction to over come if the third or fourth is a non paddler."

I disputed this. And I still do.

For any decent paddler the longer 3 person canoe of similar design and construction to a 2 person canoe will be faster. I think many people here have probably experienced this, I certainly have.

As far as designers go, Mike Chichanowski, founder and owner of Wenonah Canoes, has some video Q&A's on the site. One of the questions is which boat he likes best, his answer is the Minnesota III, because it's faster than the Minnesota II due to the extra 1.5 feet of length.

Turning to the article you provided a link to, the author states: "for usual shapes, Beam /Draft Ratio has the greatest impact, and the waterline should be as narrow as possible within the confines of maintaining acceptable stability."

Increase in wetted surface is minimized by "stretching" boats without making them wider. The Minnesoata II is 33.5" at the waterline, so is the Minnesota 3. According to the company web site: "the 20' MN 3 travels faster, with less effort than most tandems". That's true with only two paddlers, or even one, because the very small increase in friction is more than offset by the more efficient shape. That's why it's Mike's favorite of his 30 odd designs.

The author of the article even points out that frictional resistance isn't noticeable at the small levels being discussed: "The great disappointment for the designer is that, after reducing friction to a minimum, the paddler is unlikely to notice the effect. A 5 percent decrease in wetted surface is worth bragging about, but a single year's scratching and banging can easily double Cf from 0.004 on a new fiberglass canoe to 0.008. This more than offsets the designer's efforts. The cavalier attitudes of most canoeists towards their boats is evidence that a 50 percent resistance increase is not often noticed if only because the onset of its effect is so gradual."

It's great to have the formula for Frictional Resistance handy. It's nice to cite authority to bolster your views, but I don't think either actually support your claims. I think for most people, given similar canoes (say, roughly same beam) the longer boat will be faster.

People might still prefer shorter canoes for manuverability, or ease of storage and transport, but the same two paddlers in a similar style, but longer canoe will not be slower due to friction, which was the original topic.