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AmarilloJim
distinguished member(863)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/13/2016 02:25PM
Been wanting to take my GPS out with my canoes for comparison. Finally did it yesterday and here are the numbers.
I paddled both with a kayak paddle and the lake was glass.

Bell Magic
cruising speed 4.75mph
hard paddle 5.8mph
max 6.1mph

Osagian 15' aluminum battle wagon(standard flat bottom aluminum, minimal rocker, 35"beam)
cruising speed 3.75mph
hard paddle 4.5mph
max 5.0mph
 
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OldFingers57
distinguished member(5228)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/13/2016 03:25PM
That's pretty good. My wife and I averaged 4.5 mph in my Souris River Quetico 17 when we were up in Quetico a few weeks ago.
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(12535)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
09/13/2016 07:09PM
That's a good clip. I've only gotten to 5.0 mph and then my arms were burning.
fadersup
distinguished member (468)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/13/2016 07:18PM
Man, I gotta get a Magic!
09/13/2016 08:20PM
I have paddled along side Jim, he cuts a pretty good wake. Now to calculate going into and down wind and all the other variables. Final comment, go Magic.
Magic1
Guest Paddler
 
09/13/2016 09:41PM
quote bhouse46: "I have paddled along side Jim, he cuts a pretty good wake. Now to calculate going into and down wind and all the other variables. Final comment, go Magic. "Thank you, Thank You.
There was a magic listed in the for sale / wanted link on Ebay in Wisconsin just recently. Did anybody on here buy it? What would a good price for one be? I see the outfitters selling their scratched up ones for $1800-$2000, and they sell fast. The one on Ebay was $1500 and it lasted a week, Why?
SourisMan
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09/14/2016 08:27AM
My son and I checked our max speed once. I remember thinking at the time, that's about 1 mph slower than a swimming moose. Food for thought!
yellowcanoe
distinguished member(4994)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/14/2016 10:51AM
Its not all about the boat.. It' some about the boat. Longer are faster
More skin with less horsepowered paddlers=slower. The goal is to match the boat with the paddler. Gals can keep up to their solo mates in a Magic if they use something with less skin like a Kestrel.

Test is incomplete. I'd like to see comparison with a sit and switch style

So you may not keep up with Jim even if you have a Magic.

Paddling is a partnership

1.55x square root of waterline length is hull speed. Its very hard to go over that due to wavemaking resistance.
Jim was right there. Its heroic to go over 6.1
PortageKeeper
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09/14/2016 11:26AM
I once had my Magic going 7.6 with a tailwind. I think 5.8 was the best that I got on calm waters.
billconner
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09/14/2016 11:34AM
Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast.
Savage Voyageur
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09/14/2016 11:38AM
quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."

I just look down at my GPS for direction to a spot. The same screen shows you your speed. I just did a speed run for a few seconds. Trust me when I say I do a lot of relaxing. :)
PortageKeeper
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09/14/2016 12:18PM
quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
I don't care about speed either, but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is. Bottom line is that I like to cover a lot of miles (not a base camper unless on a portage clearing trip), and how efficient my boat is determines how many miles I can cover during a trip. The water is always wetter on the other side of the portage, right?
09/14/2016 12:32PM
Yeah, speed is all relative and I do not use and Advantage to be the fastest on the water. But crossing those 2 miles to the opposite shore in wave and wind, get to feel like no progress is being made. That's when I look at my speed to make sure I'm not moving backwards.

butthead
schweady
distinguished member(6422)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/14/2016 01:33PM
quote butthead: "...That's when I look at my speed to make sure I'm not moving backwards.


butthead"

Oh, yes... Easy to relate.
AmarilloJim
distinguished member(863)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/14/2016 01:36PM
I was actually more impressed with the speed of the aluminum canoe. I knew the Magic was fast. I'm thinking of getting a SRQ 16 for stability during fishing and hoping it's speed is in between my current 2 models. But as BH says it's nice to have speed when trying to put big angry water behind you.
missmolly
distinguished member(6793)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/14/2016 01:38PM
quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."

Generally, I'm with ya, Bill. Sweet and slow is the way to go, plus it lets me sneaks up on the fishies. However, last summer i paddled across England and the stern person in the other boat was 85 and kept passing my canoe. So, in the evening, I'd watch youtube videos on paddling technique and when I started twisting my waist, the octogenarian stopped passing us. Core = More!
yellowcanoe
distinguished member(4994)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/14/2016 05:26PM
quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."


Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.

Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.

That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here.
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(12535)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
09/14/2016 08:53PM
quote yellowcanoe: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."



Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.


Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.


That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here."




Please explain how hull efficiency does not equate to speed because my brain is hurting right now.
Pinetree
distinguished member(11803)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
09/14/2016 09:33PM
quote AmarilloJim: "Been wanting to take my GPS out with my canoes for comparison. Finally did it yesterday and here are the numbers.
I paddled both with a kayak paddle and the lake was glass.

Bell Magic
cruising speed 4.75mph
hard paddle 5.8mph
max 6.1mph

Osagian 15' aluminum battle wagon(standard flat bottom aluminum, minimal rocker, 35"beam)
cruising speed 3.75mph
hard paddle 4.5mph
max 5.0mph
"


Awesome speed,it would be interesting how long you could hold the Bell magic speeds for?

missmolly
distinguished member(6793)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/15/2016 07:26AM
quote Savage Voyageur: "quote yellowcanoe: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."




Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.



Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.



That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here."




Please explain how hull efficiency does not equate to speed because my brain is hurting right now.
"


It's easy breezy:

v = v0 + at
x = x0 + v0t + ½at2
v2 = v02 + 2a(x ? x0)
v? = ½(v + v0)

and

a? = ?v
?t
a = dv
dt

and

v? = ?s
?t
v = ds
dt

Glad I could help!
AmarilloJim
distinguished member(863)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/15/2016 07:33AM
I'm sure that eased his pain!
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(12535)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
09/15/2016 07:45AM
quote missmolly: "quote Savage Voyageur: "quote yellowcanoe: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."




Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.



Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.



That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here."





Please explain how hull efficiency does not equate to speed because my brain is hurting right now.
"



It's easy breezy:


v = v0 + at
x = x0 + v0t + ½at2
v2 = v02 + 2a(x ? x0)
v? = ½(v + v0)


and


a? = ?v
?t
a = dv
dt


and


v? = ?s
?t
v = ds
dt


Glad I could help!
"


They said there would be no math.
MagicPaddler
distinguished member(1133)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/15/2016 07:52AM
A shorter boat is likely to be lighter making it faster on the portages.
PortageKeeper
distinguished member(2380)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/15/2016 08:05AM
My Magic has more glide than some boats which means less loss of speed between paddle strokes, which means less paddle strokes per day, which means that I am less worn out by the end of the day, which (to me) means more efficient. No math needed for me to see this.
missmolly
distinguished member(6793)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/15/2016 08:43AM
quote Savage Voyageur: "quote missmolly: "quote Savage Voyageur: "quote yellowcanoe: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."





Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.




Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.




That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here."






Please explain how hull efficiency does not equate to speed because my brain is hurting right now.
"




It's easy breezy:



v = v0 + at
x = x0 + v0t + ½at2
v2 = v02 + 2a(x ? x0)
v? = ½(v + v0)



and



a? = ?v
?t
a = dv
dt



and



v? = ?s
?t
v = ds
dt



Glad I could help!
"



They said there would be no math. "


"No math" is life's big lie.
missmolly
distinguished member(6793)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/15/2016 08:44AM
quote AmarilloJim: "I'm sure that eased his pain!"

Ha! Of course, those equations (acceleration and velocity) are Greek to me too, but I can copy and paste!
09/15/2016 09:43AM
The GPS watches, whatever you use are fun to do stuff like this. My son had a runners gps watch with us this trip, June in Crooked, and we tried to find max speed for 1/2 mile. 3 of us in bell northwind 20, dead calm, how fast can we go. There was a wager involved. End of speed run, 7.8 mph, if gps was right. I won the $15, woot, my guess was 6.6.
09/15/2016 12:42PM
quote PortageKeeper: "My Magic has more glide than some boats which means less loss of speed between paddle strokes, which means less paddle strokes per day, which means that I am less worn out by the end of the day, which (to me) means more efficient. No math needed for me to see this."

I call that "the lazy way" and do much of it in my Advantage!

butthead
firemedic5586
senior member (55)senior membersenior member
 
09/16/2016 11:10PM
quote missmolly: "quote Savage Voyageur: "quote yellowcanoe: "quote PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is."




Nope. The efficiency is how well you plant and recover your paddle and how well your cadence is matched to the paddle design and how well you are matched to the boat.



Size matters.. Little short armed person with less strength needs less boat to keep up with bigger stronger paddler in bigger boat.



That is the underlying principle why Dave Curtis builds multiple size boats at Hemlock Boat Works. He understands physics and I don't see any interest of that here."





Please explain how hull efficiency does not equate to speed because my brain is hurting right now.
"



It's easy breezy:


v = v0 + at
x = x0 + v0t + ½at2
v2 = v02 + 2a(x ? x0)
v? = ½(v + v0)


and


a? = ?v
?t
a = dv
dt


and


v? = ?s
?t
v = ds
dt


Glad I could help!
"
09/17/2016 03:02PM

quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."

Most everyone on this site basically paddles for pleasure, regardless of what canoe they are paddling. Whatever canoe or kayak gives you those most enjoyment for whatever reason, that's awesome and ultimately that's what it is all about.

That being said, I love fast canoes, especially fast solo canoes! It's not to set speed records, or to beat one of my trip partners across the lake or down the river, I just find fast "sit and switch" style canoes to be the most enjoyable, at least for me.

I have never "clocked" any of my canoes with a GPS, but I can tell you I'm generally out in front of the pack when I'm paddling my Wenonah Voyager, Sawyer DY Special, Shockwave, etc. I consider myself a strong and capable paddler, but I'm not Verlen Kruger either.

Much like fast cars, I personally find fast canoes more fun. Although all motor vehicles are bound by posted speed limits and other DOT regulations, driving a Porsche is a lot more fun than driving a Buick LaSabre IMHO. :-)

Hans Solo

yellowcanoe
distinguished member(4994)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/17/2016 07:29PM
I've tried to clock myself. I have a hard time peering at GPS and paddling at the same time.. My results are always after a couple of seconds of coasting.
muddyfeet
distinguished member(518)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/21/2017 12:36PM
quote Pinetree: "quote AmarilloJim: "Been wanting to take my GPS out with my canoes for comparison. Finally did it yesterday and here are the numbers.
I paddled both with a kayak paddle and the lake was glass.


Bell Magic
cruising speed 4.75mph
hard paddle 5.8mph
max 6.1mph


Osagian 15' aluminum battle wagon(standard flat bottom aluminum, minimal rocker, 35"beam)
cruising speed 3.75mph
hard paddle 4.5mph
max 5.0mph
"



Awesome speed,it would be interesting how long you could hold the Bell magic speeds for?

"


This morning I paddled a magic for an out&back on the Mississippi and sustained 5.1 mph for 10miles. It was a fasting workout, but the best I've clocked this year. Headwind did pick up for the return trip so I think I could be a little faster :). I've never tried an instantaneous max speed.
Alan Gage
distinguished member(1145)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/21/2017 03:05PM
Fast boats make for faster sprints but for most paddlers a sustained run of a few miles will show very little difference. That was my first disappointing lesson when I started racing canoes and kayaks, something I don't do any longer.

When I'm out of racing shape but in good tripping shape 3 miles going all out in my old Bell Magic would average about 5.3 MPH. The same 3 miles in a racing C-1 (j-180) would have an average speed of 5.4mph. The fast boat starts out fast at the initial sprint and feels easy for the first half mile or so. Then you start to tire and speed begins to taper off.

With the Magic I could sprint to 6.3 but in J-180 I could push to 7mph.

The better your conditioning the more speed you can get out of a faster boat but the speed doesn't come free. Regular paddling won't get you there.

There's nothing all that special about a Magic's speed. I've had a few different solos and against similarly shaped boats it's not really any faster than any of them in a sprint or a cruise. I've also paddled a Savage River Blackwater expecting a really fast boat but for me it wasn't really any faster than a Magic or my cedar strip Barracuda. No doubt for a strong paddler it would be a faster boat but for a regular paddler the difference is slight.

Although sprint speeds can be misleading in terms of all day speed I don't discount them. For upstream travel an extra .2mph can be the difference in paddling up a rapid or portaging.

Alan
Pinetree
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07/21/2017 03:27PM
When dual paddling at moderate speed for long distance about 4+ miles per hour. This is our normal speed like going from Moose lake to Prairie Portage.
07/22/2017 11:27PM
I floated the Missouri a couple of years ago, my GPS said my average speed was 7.5 mph. I understand that's not normal. What has interested me over the years is that downriver and flatwater paddling speeds don't really vary as much as it seems logical. Downriver, you have the help of the current but you spend most of your time steering and not paddling.
nlong
distinguished member (116)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/26/2017 10:45AM
I paddle kayaks more often than canoes, but basics for speed are same for either. Length and hull design matched with proper loaded weight, paddler strength and endurance is going to determine your speed.
If I'm looking for a good workout, I can average 6mph for an hour strait in my 16'8" kevlar QCC600X and burst speeds of 8.5mph on flat water. I've topped out at 12mph for short bursts with my flatwater K1, but cannot average the speeds of the olympic 200m racers that do 13mph, and that boat is tippy as hell.
I've actually taken my QCC600X on a 6 day trip in the BWCA. Portaging was a bit of a pain and the gelcoat got a bit beat up to where I had to do some repairs after the trip, but it was joy to paddle bigger lakes like when I hit Little Sag, Kek, Ogish, and then only taking an hour to get the 6 miles across Seagull.
I now take my 12' Perception Tribute on my solo trips. It's 6lbs lighter than the sea kayak at 40lbs, and i just strap a 75L SeaLine boundary pack to the rear deck and it paddles great. Cruise speed isn't as fast, but it is way easier to portage and I'm not afraid to run it up on rocks.
My surf ski is 19.5' long and I can average closer to 6.5 mph with good effort, but I hate the seating position in it. Looking to eventually replace it with an Epic V10L.
GreyOwl
distinguished member (496)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/27/2017 07:46AM
Wow! I read this entire thread and now I'm asking myself, "why?"
I own the canoes I own. I paddle the way I paddle and I'm not as strong as I used to be so I get there when I get there.

But it is a fascinating conversation.
Alan Gage
distinguished member(1145)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/28/2017 10:17AM
quote nlong: "
If I'm looking for a good workout, I can average 6mph for an hour strait in my 16'8" kevlar QCC600X and burst speeds of 8.5mph on flat water.......
My surf ski is 19.5' long and I can average closer to 6.5 mph with good effort, but I hate the seating position in it. Looking to eventually replace it with an Epic V10L."


That puts you well above the technique and conditioning of the average paddler. I had a QCC600x when I got into racing. Thought I was pretty fast until we showed up at a race in Minneapolis and got pummeled by a bunch of solo canoes. At that point I could average 5.3mph for a 6 mile course and thought I had the boat pretty well maxed out.

So I bought a West side boat shop Thunderbolt (about 21' long/18" wide) thinking it would be the easy answer. At first I was thrilled with how fast I could sprint the boat and how easy I could achieve higher speeds but over 6 miles my average speed was still only 5.5mph.

After 1 1/2 years of training pretty hard my average speed in the Thunderbolt was up to 6.7mph on a really good day and the QCC600 I thought I had maxed out at 5.3mph could suddenly average just over 6. At that point I wasn't even a middle of the pack racer. The next summer I built myself a house and didn't do any racing or training. Was never able to get back into it after that although I still enjoy paddling hard.

Every time I'd sprint up to 8mph in the Thunderbolt it amazed me that there are paddlers who can maintain that level of output for miles. That's some serious effort required.

Alan
Rivermagic
Guest Paddler
 
01/11/2018 02:53PM
I'm curious if someone can speak to something related to speed, sit and switch paddling. How would a Magic compare to a Blackwater or Voyager in terms of strokes per side before needing to switch sides? Perhaps it is my technique but when paddling really hard with my Magic I get maybe 4-5 strokes per side. Would one of these other boats be different or is it me.
Thanks
01/11/2018 03:38PM
When I buy a red canoe, I'll fly by the rest of you slackers!! ;-0
Jaywalker
distinguished member(1237)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/12/2018 11:13PM
Not having or really wanting a GPS, I just. Measure my canoe speed in LPD's. That's Lakes per Day. I usually average about 5-8 LPD's on normal days, 8-10 LPD's when pushing, and once pushed to 13 LPD's on a hard day.
01/13/2018 11:01AM

Rivermagic: "I'm curious if someone can speak to something related to speed, sit and switch paddling. How would a Magic compare to a Blackwater or Voyager in terms of strokes per side before needing to switch sides? Perhaps it is my technique but when paddling really hard with my Magic I get maybe 4-5 strokes per side. Would one of these other boats be different or is it me. Thanks"

I can’t comment on how the Savage River Blackwater performs and tracks using sit and switch paddling techniques, because I haven’t had the pleasure of paddling a Blackwater. (Savage River canoes are pretty rare here in Wisconsin.) I own a Magic, a Voyager and several other sit and switch style solo canoes that I can comment on though.

As you probably know, in-order to maximize the most strokes per side before switching, it’s important that the paddle is as near vertical as possible, you’re following the keel-line of the hull, (not the gunnels) , and you’re not continuing your stroke beyond your body. I’m assuming your canoe is properly trimmed as well. That being said, five to six strokes per side is not unreasonable in a Magic, although four to five strokes is probably more the norm, depending on technique and conditions. Although the Wenonah Voyager tracks somewhat better than the Magic, I’d say six to seven strokes per sides is about average before switching. The Wenonah Encounter also tracks well, especially when loaded, and is also a good performer, but not quite the rocket the Voyager is.

Probably the best tracking solo canoe I’ve paddled and own is the Sawyer DY Special. The DY Special @ 16’ 8” compares closely in design to the Sawyer Shockwave, also 16’ 8”, the Wenonah Advantage @ 16’ 6”, and the Savage River Blackwater @ 17’. Much like the Voyager, the DY Special, Shockwave, Advantage and the Blackwater have little or no rocker, unlike the Magic which has differential rock, (1.5” bow/.75” stern).

The DY Special has more of a shallow V hull design when compared to the Blackwater, Shockwave, Advantage and the Voyager, thereby making it a bit better tracking than the others. Still, seven strokes per side in a DY Special is about maximum average before the canoe “turns off” course too much.

Again, I can’t speak to the performance of a Savage River Blackwater, but of the sit & switch style solo canoes I own and paddle, (i.e., Sawyer DY Special, Shockwave, Summersong @ 15' 4", Wenonah Jensen C1W @ 16' 6", Wenonah Encounter @ 17', Mad River Traveler @ 16' 3", Wenonah Voyager @ 17' 6" and the Bell/Northstar Magic 16'), the Voyager is the fastest of the bunch, but not drastically. The Sawyer DY Special tracks the best of all the aforementioned solo canoes though.

I hope my reply answers your question.

Hans Solo

(from left to right; Wenonah Encounter, Voyager, Sawyer Shockwave & Summersong, Sawyer DY Special, Mad River Traveler, and Wenonah Jensen C1W @ 16' 6")


nooneuno
member (34)member
 
01/13/2018 02:14PM
I only paddle fast if I hear banjo's....
Grandma L
distinguished member(5011)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
01/13/2018 02:58PM
Some of you "speedy guys" should do the Kruger Challenge this fall. International Falls to Grand Portage in 8 days or less. Several BWCA.com member have and are planning on doing it again. Information should come out in February or March for the 2018 Challenge.
RetiredDave
distinguished member (184)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/13/2018 07:22PM
nooneuno: "I only paddle fast if I hear banjo's...."

Okay, that's funny!

Dave
Pinetree
distinguished member(11803)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
01/13/2018 07:28PM
HansSolo: "
Rivermagic: "I'm curious if someone can speak to something related to speed, sit and switch paddling. How would a Magic compare to a Blackwater or Voyager in terms of strokes per side before needing to switch sides? Perhaps it is my technique but when paddling really hard with my Magic I get maybe 4-5 strokes per side. Would one of these other boats be different or is it me. Thanks"
SSOLO-020313-003658.JPG" align="left" > "


Very good info.
Rivermagic
Guest Paddler
 
01/13/2018 09:44PM
Thanks Hans, super helpful info. That's an impressive stable I must say. I traded my white gold Magic but now my friend has a black gold Magic which I am really lusting, but have really been thinking about a Voyager. I just can not afford a Blackwater realistically. The things I don't like about the Voyager are the high sides and the tougher layups are so heavy. Black gold or black lite Magic really seem about perfect, light and tough, if I could only get 2-3 more hits per side and another 1 mph. 2-3 more hits and faster speed of the Voyager is very tempting indeed, however wind in the river could easily neutralize that advantage. DY special, and Shockwaves are tough to find aren't they?
1JimD
distinguished member (320)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/14/2018 10:35AM
I used to try and compare one hull to another, using a GPS, but there always seemed to be a lot a variables to deal with !

I find now, when I want to compare to hulls, I call up Alan Gage, and go for a paddle !
After about a half hour, we switch canoes. When I lag Way behind Alan, or I notice, he's Coasting a lot, I'm in the slower hull.
Having someone, side by side to race with, won't give you numbers, but it will sort the Fast, from the Slow !

Jim
01/14/2018 01:00PM

Rivermagic: "Thanks Hans, super helpful info. That's an impressive stable I must say. I traded my white gold Magic but now my friend has a black gold Magic which I am really lusting, but have really been thinking about a Voyager. I just can not afford a Blackwater realistically. The things I don't like about the Voyager are the high sides and the tougher layups are so heavy. Black gold or black lite Magic really seem about perfect, light and tough, if I could only get 2-3 more hits per side and another 1 mph. 2-3 more hits and faster speed of the Voyager is very tempting indeed, however wind in the river could easily neutralize that advantage. DY special, and Shockwaves are tough to find aren't they?"

You’re welcome River Magic! I always enjoy talking sit and switch solo canoes. I made mention of the solo canoes in my “stable” that are of a similar vein and are somewhat comparable in design and performance.

Yes, Sawyer DY Specials and Shockwaves are hard to come by these days. On paper, the DY and Shockwave have almost identical specifications. The DY Special tracks slightly better than the Shockwave though, but the Shockwave performs better than the DY Special in shallow water due to some particular differences in hull design. The Sawyer Shockwave compares more closely to Wenonah’s Advantage with regards to shallow water performance. Regardless, both the DY Special and the Shockwave are Dave Yost designs and are both fun to paddle and user friendly IMHO.

Although I haven’t found the high sides of the Voyager to be an issue, it’s a better tripping solo than the Sawyer DY Special or the Sawyer Shockwave due to those higher sides, (and the subsequent deeper hull), which makes for a drier ride than the aforementioned Sawyers solo canoes.

You’re right about the Wenonah Voyager’s tougher lay-ups being heavier in comparison. The same can be said for the Wenonah Encounter, Wenonah Jensen C1W, and the Mad River Traveler.

You’re also correct in saying that wind and current does change things up. The examples of strokes per side when paddling sit and switch that I mentioned are under ideal conditions.

Hans Solo

01/14/2018 01:29PM

1JimD: " I used to try and compare one hull to another, using a GPS, but there always seemed to be a lot a variables to deal with !

I find now, when I want to compare to hulls, I call up Alan Gage, and go for a paddle !
After about a half hour, we switch canoes. When I lag Way behind Alan, or I notice, he's Coasting a lot, I'm in the slower hull.
Having someone, side by side to race with, won't give you numbers, but it will sort the Fast, from the Slow !

Jim"


Good point Jim!

Often when the topic of hull design and speed are discussed, it can frequently become overly technical. Although there's no denying the laws of physics, but more often the "eye test" is more relevant under real world applications.

As you've noted, test paddling different models and comparing the performance of various canoes usually determines what canoe(s) perform the best for a persons needs, their expectations, or ultimately what canoe(s) are the most enjoyable to paddle.

Hans Solo
Alan Gage
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01/16/2018 11:39AM
if I could only get 2-3 more hits per side and another 1 mph.

You might pick up a couple hits per side but you won't gain anything close to 1mph. Over the course of a day I think the best you could hope for would be a couple tenths.

I paddled the Blackwater with a GPS briefly (20 minutes) and while I thought it was a really nice boat I didn't think it was appreciably faster than my Magic. The stronger paddler you are the more the speed differences in them will become apparent but as trippers we generally don't get near the performance out of them that racers do; especially since we're paddling them loaded.

If fitness paddling and racing are why you want speed then looking for a boat with more speed potential is good. If you're mainly worried about covering more ground when tripping don't sweat it and instead work on ways to break camp faster cut down portaging time.

Alan
MagicPaddler
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01/16/2018 12:26PM
To put an example that backs what Alen said. When I went from the Magic to a Rapidfire my overall speed increased. So the shorter smaller boat is faster for me. On one trip my trip partner had a Prism I was in a Magic and we switch canoes a couple of times one day. I found that except for straight line long water crossing the Magic was faster. Ok I am not a racer and I believe a racer would find the opposite as I did, but a tripper is not a racer. So when you ask for the fastest canoe you need to see who is paddling.
Alan Gage
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01/16/2018 12:58PM
I'll also say that I've always been drawn to fast and efficient boats but my last couple trips have made me realize speed is far from the most important factor when it comes to covering miles. I've begun to see that having a quick boat that covers open water faster would soon lose ground to a larger volume boat when you get some river travel. A larger volume boat with the ability to run a set of rapids in 3 minutes saves a ton of time compared to a faster and lower volume boat that now requires a 1 hour portage. The faster boat can't make up that much time on open water.

The same applies to a larger volume boat that allows you to travel in rough water where a faster/narrow hull would leave you wind bound for the day.

I still want a boat to be as fast and efficient as possible but my hulls seem to be growing in volume.

Alan
AmarilloJim
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01/16/2018 01:40PM
Alan Gage: "The same applies to a larger volume boat that allows you to travel in rough water where a faster/narrow hull would leave you wind bound for the day.


I still want a boat to be as fast and efficient as possible but my hulls seem to be growing in volume.


Alan"


Another reason why I switched from a Magic to a SRQ16
01/16/2018 02:38PM
On the other, paddling a canoe way bigger than you need, leaves a bigger "sail" to be blown around by wind. The reason I quit paddling the SRQ16 and started paddling a Magic ;).
Rivermagic
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01/16/2018 09:30PM
I look forward to the time when I can make some trips North and do some tripping, but not in the foreseeable future. My padding is close to my daily commute, and on the middle Missouri River living in Missouri. I'm about 300 yards from the river and have raced the MR340 3X in my Grumman. I traded my Magic for an Frankenstein OC1 made out of a surf ski and will race that, but will want another solo canoe. I also want one that can take a bit of a beating, climbing down steep large rock banks and wing dykes. Plus it will be on my car a lot indeed the sun. I loved my Magic but again thought I might like having more time on each side. My longest race in the Magic was 63 miles and switching every 4-5 paddles seemed like a lot. If the Blackwater is not appreciatively faster and better tracking than I'd gladly keep the extra money and buy my friends black gold Magic. I keep thinking Voyager but have been blown around in my Grumman so that worries me as does an ultralight layup and the weight of flex core. Ooh what to do??
Rivermagic
member (5)member
 
01/16/2018 10:31PM
And I appreciate Alan your insight into getting 2-3 more hits per side, but not gaining that much speed in the Voyager. That helps me with my perspective. Thanks. To make it a little more complicated I wonder if I would miss the little bit of Magic rocker in the Missouri River with is crazy currents and boils. I haven't really thought about that. I also saw on the classifieds older posts of a Shockwave, Voyager and Encounter.
Alan Gage
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01/17/2018 08:25AM
Rivermagic: "And I appreciate Alan your insight into getting 2-3 more hits per side, but not gaining that much speed in the Voyager. "

But don't forget that if you're in it for racing and fitness a couple tenths of a MPH is huge when you're paddling hard all day long.

I raced my Magic once and someone else was in a Voyager. The wind was crazy that day and he was the only one at the starting line having a problem with his boat getting blown around. He ended up capsizing before the race was over but don't know if you can blame the boat as I nearly did a couple times too.

I think what you really need for those races is a rudder.

Alan
MagicPaddler
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01/17/2018 08:53AM
I rented a canoe with a rudder for a 5 day trip. With the rudder down and the wind blowing on the side of (including quartering into the wind) the back of the canoe does not slip sideways but the front does. The rudder will not turn far enough to allow the canoe to be steered. Rudders are for down wind only.
01/17/2018 09:04AM
MagicPaddler: "I rented a canoe with a rudder for a 5 day trip. With the rudder down and the wind blowing on the side of (including quartering into the wind) the back of the canoe does not slip sideways but the front does. The rudder will not turn far enough to allow the canoe to be steered. Rudders are for down wind only."

A very good description of how an Advantage handles side wind. It has a very deep and squared of stern stem.

Far as the speed comments I can get it up to 7mph in a very short sprint. I did not buy it for that and hardly ever exceed 5, cruise mostly around 3. I bought it cause I'm lazy and like the glide/paddling ratio for long tripping.

butthead
Alan Gage
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01/17/2018 09:38AM
MagicPaddler: "I rented a canoe with a rudder for a 5 day trip. With the rudder down and the wind blowing on the side of (including quartering into the wind) the back of the canoe does not slip sideways but the front does. The rudder will not turn far enough to allow the canoe to be steered. Rudders are for down wind only."

In that case I'd think weight should be shifted forward until more of a balance is achieved .

Alan
MagicPaddler
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01/17/2018 10:05AM
Alan Gage: "MagicPaddler: "I rented a canoe with a rudder for a 5 day trip. With the rudder down and the wind blowing on the side of (including quartering into the wind) the back of the canoe does not slip sideways but the front does. The rudder will not turn far enough to allow the canoe to be steered. Rudders are for down wind only."


In that case I'd think weight should be shifted forward until more of a balance is achieved .


Alan"

I found that with the rudder down and cranked as far as it would go trying to turn into the wind and paddling on only on the side to help turn into the wind the best I could do was turn broadside to the wind. I would lift the rudder and with 5 or 6 strokes I could turn into the wind. So the canoe was loaded so it was easy to handle without a rudder.
Banksiana
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01/17/2018 10:19AM
Rivermagic-
I made inquiries to Wenonah and they are willing to produce a Voyaguer with less freeboard.
andym
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01/17/2018 11:44AM
A rudder is also a brake. That’s how we view them in sailing. If you are constantly having to rudder to maintain a straight course then the boat is unbalanced and you would be going faster with the sails balanced and less rudder action.

Relying on one in a canoe race would be similar to j-stroking. So, combining a rudder and sit and switch seems like sort of an odd approach.
Pinetree
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01/17/2018 11:51AM
I would think a rudder would produce some drag.
Maybe solo I like a kayak paddle it is such a straight line paddling and adds so much speed and control if you desire.
The true single paddle paddlers is a true art in efficiency which I do not have.
Rivermagic
member (5)member
 
01/17/2018 12:11PM
Wow you all are amazing, thanks for all the help and discussion! That's very interesting about Wenonah, I wonder what kind of upcharge that would be. Butthead, I think I may have a picture of you on my desktop? Yellow coat with a dog in a BG Magic? Is that you and do you like the canoe and layup? Looks like it has a few battle scars.
Alan Gage
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01/17/2018 02:58PM
andym: "A rudder is also a brake. That’s how we view them in sailing. If you are constantly having to rudder to maintain a straight course then the boat is unbalanced and you would be going faster with the sails balanced and less rudder action.


Relying on one in a canoe race would be similar to j-stroking. So, combining a rudder and sit and switch seems like sort of an odd approach. "


Yes there will be some drag to a rudder but the ability to maintain a steady course with no steering strokes makes up for it. This especially comes into play in a beam or rear quartering wind. With no rudder 90% of your strokes will be on the same side and soon gets tiring. A rudder lets you paddle on whichever side you like. Also a huge benefit in current, especially upstream.

I don't have any experience with rudders on canoes but have quite a bit in racing kayaks and surf skis. Often times I'd paddle with a cut down 46" carbon single blade. The rudder makes a big difference.

Rudders are against the rules on canoes for USCA sanctioned races.

Alan
Alan Gage
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01/17/2018 03:03PM
MagicPaddler: "Alan Gage: "MagicPaddler: "I rented a canoe with a rudder for a 5 day trip. With the rudder down and the wind blowing on the side of (including quartering into the wind) the back of the canoe does not slip sideways but the front does. The rudder will not turn far enough to allow the canoe to be steered. Rudders are for down wind only."



In that case I'd think weight should be shifted forward until more of a balance is achieved .



Alan"

I found that with the rudder down and cranked as far as it would go trying to turn into the wind and paddling on only on the side to help turn into the wind the best I could do was turn broadside to the wind. I would lift the rudder and with 5 or 6 strokes I could turn into the wind. So the canoe was loaded so it was easy to handle without a rudder."


It's good the canoe was trimmed properly for use without the rudder but as soon as the rudder is dropped the required trim changes. In the situation you experienced I'd think more weight in the bow would have been needed to even out the forces of the wind.

Alan
MReid
member (27)member
 
01/17/2018 04:48PM
MagicPaddler:
I found that with the rudder down and cranked as far as it would go trying to turn into the wind and paddling on only on the side to help turn into the wind the best I could do was turn broadside to the wind. I would lift the rudder and with 5 or 6 strokes I could turn into the wind. So the canoe was loaded so it was easy to handle without a rudder."


With a beam wind and a level trimmed boat, the wind will tend to turn you into the wind as it pushes on the stern. With the rudder down, that may have tended to prevent the stern from moving. When you pulled the rudder up, the stern could move, and thus it was easy to move the boat into the wind. If you have trouble turning into the wind, just weight the bow more. I paddle solo, and have a day pack forward within reach of of the paddle--I push it forward, and maybe pull my main (aft) pack forward. And then a sliding seat helps.
01/17/2018 05:32PM
Rivermagic: "Wow you all are amazing, thanks for all the help and discussion! That's very interesting about Wenonah, I wonder what kind of upcharge that would be. Butthead, I think I may have a picture of you on my desktop? Yellow coat with a dog in a BG Magic? Is that you and do you like the canoe and layup? Looks like it has a few battle scars."

Nope, this is me, last Aug getting a drink from MSR Trailshot, in my Advantage.

butthead
HowardSprague
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01/18/2018 02:00PM
PortageKeeper: "quote billconner: "Man, I go tripping to relax and get away from the rat race and last thing on my mind is canoe speed and going fast."
I don't care about speed either, but I do care about efficiency and the speed usually equates to how efficient the hull is. Bottom line is that I like to cover a lot of miles (not a base camper unless on a portage clearing trip), and how efficient my boat is determines how many miles I can cover during a trip. The water is always wetter on the other side of the portage, right?"


Dude - can't #^#*in' keep up with you in a #**#in tandem!... Maybe an Alumacraft,...

Rivermagic
member (5)member
 
01/19/2018 08:54AM
I emailed Wenonah yesterday to ask about cost of building a Voyager with less free board, I'll post the response. I enquired about one in tuff-weave for durability, but gosh 50+ pounds?
Hans, what layup is your white Voyager with black rails? Purdy..
 
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