The army buddy who introduced me to the area in 1979 sent this.

Economic impact of visitors

So in the math every worker makes $12.25/hr year round? How about
healthcare etc..... This is Friends of the Boundary Waters propaganda.
Who paid for this in depth study? How much of the $25 million in wages
went to Becky Rom and the other lawyers?

Really? a "Guest Paddler"? Opinions are more valuable from those that are members and willing to "own" their statements.
Contradictory studies or documentation would be interesting. Are there any?

I am always suspect of articles / studies which purport to arrive at economic conclusions which may or may not have an ulterior political motive but the simple fact of the matter is that canoe country is a big draw and the numbers must be absolutely huge as far as economic impact is concerned......that much seems obvious to me.

I participated in the survey last year. My outfitter gave it to me and I dropped it in the mail after I got home. Always a fair question to ask about the motivation of the sponsors of a survey. However, Emu seems to have his/her own motivation for asking the question.
Also, it is fair to ask about other surveys.

Just wondering who else participated?

The economy went to chit with the fake wilderness act!

quote TomP: "I participated in the survey last year. My outfitter gave it to me and I dropped it in the mail after I got home. Always a fair question to ask about the motivation of the sponsors of a survey. However, Emu seems to have his/her own motivation for asking the question.
Also, it is fair to ask about other surveys.


Just wondering who else participated? "

I recall getting surveys in the mail at home after some of our trips were completed, but I don't recall being asked any information on what we spent... just entry and exit points and dates, number of days on each site and on what body of water, whether we considered it "crowded" or not, whether we had difficulty finding a campsite, etc. I thought: here we go, they're going to change entry quotas or group sizes or something... Nada.

I also completed the survey, Tom.

Disable guest accounts please.

quote HoLeeChit: "The economy went to chit with the fake wilderness act! "

Some things are more important than jobs.

quote Soledad: "

quote HoLeeChit: "The economy went to chit with the fake wilderness act! "

Some things are more important than jobs. "

Not to the unemployed who want to work.

Thank you! I was speechless.

I took the survey. It was clearly trying to measure spending in the immediate area only, which is understandable.

I am sure it did not capture the full economic impact the BWCA generates because it did not address spending outside the immediate study area very well.

Last year I bought over $75 of freeze dried food for my BWCA trips at Fleet Farm here in the Twin Cities. Bought a carbon-fiber kayak paddle online for soloing from a company in Wisconsin. Could list more examples.

Where does that show up?

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote Soledad: "

quote HoLeeChit: "The economy went to chit with the fake wilderness act! "

Some things are more important than jobs. "

Not to the unemployed who want to work."

There are plenty of other ways to earn $10/hour and there are plenty of other ways to develop the black long and other fatal diseases.

quote Emu: "So in the math every worker makes $12.25/hr year round? How about
healthcare etc..... This is Friends of the Boundary Waters propaganda.
Who paid for this in depth study? How much of the $25 million in wages
went to Becky Rom and the other lawyers?"

Wow this statement is so flawed and moronic, its clearly here just to stir the pot. If you actually look at the numbers, it says that the directly employed people (from BW tourism) made $16.63 million last year in labor alone and they numbered 772 people. That's an average yearly salary of $21,000. Plus, many of the people included in the 772 were part time or seasonal but it does not specify exact numbers there, probably because the lines can get blurred when trying to sort part-timers from seasonal and year round, especially when some of these people might count on the "seasonal" income to last them all year. That means the real full time people would make more than that. It also stated that this was for the in-season only so winter income is not included at all. People like Becky Rom, who are extreme in their own way, would not be included whatsoever in this study and the fact that this person felt the need to mention them just goes to show their narrow-mindedness and need to just make a point.

The BWCA does generate a lot of economic stimulus. Just look at my receipts from Menards for all my DIY projects, and from the sporting goods stores for odds and ends. The other factor at play here with the Polymet mining is how much of a long term impact pollution would have well after the mine would stop employing people. I think mining is fine when done right, but this just seems too close and tied too directly to the BW.

I'm in full support of the BWCA, but a study doesn't need to be directly contradicted by another study in order to have biases. For example, it was paid for by supporters of conservation and carried out by a firm focusing on the economics of conservation.

An example of bias: the survey was handed out by outfitters to customers picking up permits, and then applied to all visitors. Do groups with outfitters spend more than groups not going through outfitters? Perhaps they represent larger or longer trips. Certainly more likely to rent a canoe (revenue in tri-county area) than bring their own (revenue outside tri-county area).

This is just reading through the executive summary.

"Guest paddlers" again? become a member or use your member log-in. If you have a valid and valuable opinion - own it and sign in!

quote Grandma L: ""Guest paddlers" again? become a member or use your member log-in. If you have a valid and valuable opinion - own it and sign in!"

I love guest paddlers,but agree they should have to give just a tad more info.

quote : "I'm in full support of the BWCA, but a study doesn't need to be directly contradicted by another study in order to have biases. For example, it was paid for by supporters of conservation and carried out by a firm focusing on the economics of conservation.


An example of bias: the survey was handed out by outfitters to customers picking up permits, and then applied to all visitors. Do groups with outfitters spend more than groups not going through outfitters? Perhaps they represent larger or longer trips. Certainly more likely to rent a canoe (revenue in tri-county area) than bring their own (revenue outside tri-county area).


This is just reading through the executive summary."

Actually distributing the surveys through outfitters would not automatically create bias. I got it simply because I picked up my permit at an outfitter. I rented nothing from them. I think they were handing out the surveys to anyone picking up a permit, so that means bias was not created through its distribution.

There was a lot wider range of data collecting also.

Those figures for the number of people employed, and the wages paid are questionable.
1,000 people employed with 25 million in wages paid comes out to an average of $25,000 per year/$25 per hour.
With most employees working 90-100 days on a best case scenario, that isn't going to happen.
The summer help starts after schools let out which could be as late as June 10th, and are heading back to school before the end of August.
Also, very few people employed in the tourist industry get employer paid health care.
I've had a tourism based business for 33 years, and can tell you that the figures cited are not happening in northeastern Minnesota, where the Boundary Waters is located.

I am seeing and hear the same as you TGO. Like some have said they spend next to nothing local to the bwca. Instead buy stuff from big business and bring it with them. I think I read the average American spends a $1000.00 on vacation. The towns local to the bwca are getting the way bellow average travelers.

I think this is getting way too detailed. Spending $1,000 per day on a vacation is easy when you go to Disney World or an all inclusive resort in Mexico. BWCA is camping, which inherently isn't terribly expensive in the first place. Places like BWCA just simply don't exist anymore or certainly won't within 100 years if we keep mining the heck out of our planet and destroying the earth. Yes, I feel terrible for those who are unemployed AND wish to be employed. However, we are a very intelligent race that has got to be able to come up with more sustainable jobs that don't destroy this planet. Why not start a wind farm in Virginia on the bluffs? You get the idea - approving a mine in the BWCA for a couple hundred jobs that ARE NOT sustainable is just lazy, short-term thinking in my opinion and we are better than that as a race.

To reiterate - I do have deep sympathy for those who have lost their mining jobs that supported there family. However, I do not believe that mining is the only possible way to keep the Northeastern MN economy going - I think that is lazy, convenient logic.

quote gkimball:

Actually distributing the surveys through outfitters would not automatically create bias. I got it simply because I picked up my permit at an outfitter. I rented nothing from them. I think they were handing out the surveys to anyone picking up a permit, so that means bias was not created through its distribution."

I'd tend to agree if they also surveyed at ranger stations and the like.

quote ellahallely: "I am seeing and hear the same as you TGO. Like some have said they spend next to nothing local to the bwca. Instead buy stuff from big business and bring it with them. I think I read the average American spends a $1000.00 a day on vacation. The towns local to the bwca are getting the way bellow average travelers. "

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this board in my entire time here! My husband and I have been traveling to the canoe country, and usually the BWCA for 45 years now and we always spend money on the local economy. We are comfortably retired, and I would say "above average" in our spending habits when traveling.

In addition, we have traveled extensively throughout the United States and the world, including luxury cruises abroad (Mediterranean, Australia/New Zealand, Alaska, Iceland, Caribbean, etc.) We do not go "on the cheap!" And we have NEVER spent anything close to $1000 a day per person on such a vacation! To say that the "average American" does so is ludicrous.

I spent numerous thousands just buying my canoe in the Ely area to help out. I could go on,but enough for now.

Outside of local revenue produced it does create a huge number of jobs in the canoe industry and other outdoor venues across the nation,but connected to the canoe recreation.

The article I read said the average American family spends $4,580.00 on vacation. It does not say how many days, lets say 5 you do the math. That's close to a $1000 a day.

I can afford to go anywhere on the planet. I try to stay in state and close to home, to reduce my carbon foot print. Also I like my money spent close to home. You know to help the local people. I am not going to spend any of my money in a foreign country. The money might never come back. Jet travel is a big NO for me!! Call me names like "ludicrous" if it makes you feel better about yourself. I can take it if it helps you.

vacation-link

quote ellahallely: "The article I read said the average American family spends $4,580.00 on vacation. It does not say how many days, lets say 5 you do the math. That's close to a $1000 a day.


I can afford to go anywhere on the planet. I try to stay in state and close to home, to reduce my carbon foot print. Also I like my money spent close to home. You know to help the local people. I am not going to spend any of my money in a foreign country. The money might never come back. Jet travel is a big NO for me!! Call me names like "ludicrous" if it makes you feel better about yourself. I can take it if it helps you.


vacation-link "

I don't enjoy getting into arguments on this site, but just to clarify, I didn't call anyone ludicrous. I said that your statement that "the average American spends $1000 a day on vacation" was ludicrous. I stand by that. Especially now since you are backing off and saying "American family" (which could indeed be as many as four to six people, not one "average American person" as implied, and now saying $4600 for an unspecified amount of time, not "a day". Since our family has never had a vacation that was as short as five days long. . .I hope you will forgive me for misinterpreting your figures.

You choose to stay in your home state. We don't. We love Michigan and we have traveled all over our beautiful state. But we have been coming to the canoe country for 45 years. And we go to other places. We sometimes travel in a jet plane, too. I am sorry that that offends you. But I doubt that your arguments will make us stay home at this time in our lives, so we will have to just agree to disagree about that one.

We'll be back in the canoe country in August. We might even drop by Ely and spend a little of our money. We usually do.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I won't do that to you. I never said I was backing off what I said. You said it.

I was not talking about your vacation, I said average American. Average Americans vacation is 4 days, according to cbs vacation-link I am out the door, taking some little kids fishing. Have a nice weekend!

I like spending $$$$ in ely. You should see my bar tabs sometime. I have never spent 10000 dollars a day not even close to it

I would like to think of myself as average.....
I love going to the BE, and would love to continue to do so.
If that means spending more of my $$$$ there then so be it.....

I like spending $$$$ in ely. You should see my bar tabs sometime. I have never spent 10000 dollars a day not even close to it

I would like to think of myself as average.....
I love going to the BE, and would love to continue to do so.
If that means spending more of my $$$$ there then so be it.....

Even though I live 500 miles away. I buy my canoes in Ely. I look at it as supporting the MN Range area. Ely is not your typical Range town I realize but any bit helps. The surrounding mining based area is very depressed compared to what it used to be in the 80s. I've spent summers in Biwabik since 1960 and the town's population is 40% of what it was when I was a kid. So my bar tab, groceries, restaurant,bills ect help. Especially my bar tab.

Sorry, but this conversation is hitting a hot button. - Traditionally, and for hundreds of years, to be successful, people move or get training to get jobs.

They came from Europe in the late 1800's for jobs in mining, farming and lumbering. Recently, many have moved to North Dakota for the oil. Others moved for a gold rush or to California for technology or the movie industry. Detroit for auto industry jobs. You get it. Get training and move to the jobs - that is the pattern.

As for spending travel money? I think we seem to be comparing apples and oranges. The $1,00 a day for travel, is too undefined and broad to be relevant for our conversation..
I spend lots of money in the Ely area. I even bought a house - only to have the long-time locals be unwell-coming, rude and judgmental. And, complain that I don't spend enough money there. If you don't have generations in the local cemetery, you are an outsider. That attitude will not help any growth - mining or tourist.
Listen to this MPR broadcast. Ely - MPR broadcast

I just read an article that questioned, "Is Ely still a mining/lumber town or is it the "jumping off" hub to a National Treasure - like Jackson Hole or West Yellowstone?" If the definition was made and the goal clear, the assessments would be more focused and maybe more applicable to the situation. As a mining town - it is shrinking, as a support to the National Treasure, it could be growing?

quote Spartan2: "

quote ellahallely: "I am seeing and hear the same as you TGO. Like some have said they spend next to nothing local to the bwca. Instead buy stuff from big business and bring it with them. I think I read the average American spends a $1000.00 a day on vacation. The towns local to the bwca are getting the way bellow average travelers. "

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this board in my entire time here! My husband and I have been traveling to the canoe country, and usually the BWCA for 45 years now and we always spend money on the local economy. We are comfortably retired, and I would say "above average" in our spending habits when traveling.


In addition, we have traveled extensively throughout the United States and the world, including luxury cruises abroad (Mediterranean, Australia/New Zealand, Alaska, Iceland, Caribbean, etc.) We do not go "on the cheap!" And we have NEVER spent anything close to $1000 a day per person on such a vacation! To say that the "average American" does so is ludicrous."

Grandma L. Not to get off subject, but when were you in Iceland? We are renting a car for a ten day drive around the circle in June any must sees?

quote Grandma L: "Sorry, but this conversation is hitting a hot button. - Traditionally, and for hundreds of years, to be successful, people move or get training to get jobs.

They came from Europe in the late 1800's for jobs in mining, farming and lumbering. Recently, many have moved to North Dakota for the oil. Others moved for a gold rush or to California for technology or the movie industry. Detroit for auto industry jobs. You get it. Get training and move to the jobs - that is the pattern.


As for spending travel money? I think we seem to be comparing apples and oranges. The $1,00 a day for travel, is too undefined and broad to be relevant for our conversation..

"

Totally agree, Grandma L. It is a way of life for many of us. Your description certainly applies to our family.

And the discussion sort of degraded when $1,000 a day spent by "the average American" suddenly became another amount entirely which was being spent by an entire family over 4-5 days, and if you read the Forbes article in the link, the amount was $1000-$4600 for that entire time period. Undefined and broad is a good way to put it.

quote mutz: "

quote Spartan2: "

quote ellahallely: "I am seeing and hear the same as you TGO. Like some have said they spend next to nothing local to the bwca. Instead buy stuff from big business and bring it with them. I think I read the average American spends a $1000.00 a day on vacation. The towns local to the bwca are getting the way bellow average travelers. "

This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this board in my entire time here! My husband and I have been traveling to the canoe country, and usually the BWCA for 45 years now and we always spend money on the local economy. We are comfortably retired, and I would say "above average" in our spending habits when traveling.



In addition, we have traveled extensively throughout the United States and the world, including luxury cruises abroad (Mediterranean, Australia/New Zealand, Alaska, Iceland, Caribbean, etc.) We do not go "on the cheap!" And we have NEVER spent anything close to $1000 a day per person on such a vacation! To say that the "average American" does so is ludicrous."

Grandma L. Not to get off subject, but when were you in Iceland? We are renting a car for a ten day drive around the circle in June any must sees?"

Hi mutz,
If you look again, you will see that it was I, not Grandma L who mentioned Iceland.

We were in Iceland in July of 2015 on an eleven-day cruise expedition that circumnavigated the island, with an additional two days in Reykjavic at the end. It was all quite fascinating.

Must sees? Thingvellir National Park is interesting, seeing the place where the Eurasian and American tectonic plates are pulling apart, and seeing the Geysir geothermal area.

Many gorgeous waterfalls: Gullfoss, Dynjandi, Godafoss, Dettifoss, Svartifoss. I thought the Herring Museum at Siglufjordur was interesting, and the town of Akureyri was quite a nice place to explore a bit. We spent a lovely day in a little village called Seydisfordur, at the end of a beautiful fjord. Small waterfalls everywhere, charming little places to explore, lupine blooming wherever you looked.

We had an interesting stop at Vatnajokull Glacier, and I absolutely loved the boat trip out into the Glacier Lagoon of Jokulsarlon. To me that was a real highlight!

Then there was a day on Vestmannaeyjar in the Westmann Islands, where we were able to get up close and personal with puffins and with the beautiful Icelandic horses and sheep. The sheep run loose all over the island, be careful when you are driving, as they are not fenced in like they are in the United States.

We had wonderful Icelandic guides and we learned so much. I wish I could show you the photo books I made from this trip. Iceland is a truly fascinating place to visit. I hope you have good weather. It was quite cold and rainy when we were there in July and we wore our Smartwool and rain gear for the entire time--something we had not anticipated. They said they were having "October weather in July." Just our luck. But we have fabulous memories from the trip.

Sorry to hijack the thread. You may all get back to your discussion now.

Thanks Spartan2
I knew who I was responding to but my fingers don't always type what my brain tells them. I will get out my map and mark the places you mentioned. We are anticipating 30-55 degrees with rain and snow.