I was wondering if anyone has tried using casting bubbles, regular bobbers, or something else to keep their lure from sinking too far while trolling. My concern is if I'm trolling with either a heavy swimbait, spoon, or an spinner, and my partner catches a fish, my bait will fall to the bottom and get hung up while he fights his. I'm sure someone has thought of this before. Other than using a floating or suspending lure, what can be done?

RW

I reel in when my bowman gets a fish on. Avoids snags and getting tangled up in his fish.

RW

At first i must admit I thought such a plan was a bit of "overthinking" to a problem which doesn't really exist. But then I realized you were using your imagination and thinking "outside the box" and for that I applaud you. Such a philosophy has payed big dividends for me in fishing and life in general.

But in this instance there is no rush. A hooked fish is typically not going anywhere giving you ample time to reel your lure in. And in fact you may very well want your lure in proximity to a hooked fish as a double is not unusual in the least.

In your case here is what I would do......use the opportunity afforded by your partners hooked fish to use your lure differently than its original intention of trolling. Allow your lure, say a spoon, to plummet to / near bottom and work it back with a snapping, jigging motion. While your buddy reels in another 22" pike you can pop a 28" walleye. Capiche?

Don't forget the ball bearing swivel with your spoon or you will be sorry.

As much as I love to disagree with MT, he is right. You have ample time to reel. Besides, as you down in the water, sometimes you will see other fish trying to take the lure away from the hooked fish. Drop that jig on them!

quote bassnet: "As much as I love to disagree with MT, he is right. "

Disagree with me? And here I thought we were 2 fishing geniuses who thought alike......(where is an eye roll when you need it?)

Ok, maybe I am overthinking this, but I would still like a solution. I'll explain.

My issue is that I will be traveling with another boat, and the occupants in the other boat are less experienced at canoeing and often paddle much slower (or just plain get distracted and stop paddling to talk, look at something, or rest). My partner and I often need to slow significantly or stop to wait for them to catch up. Usually about 1-2 times per mile. We will be traveling a 20-30 mile loop (depending on weather) over 5 days this year and I want troll with large baits (trophy hunting) when we are traveling from one lake to another, then fish for eating once on the lake that camp will be set up. I'd prefer to not lose one of those +$20 baits to the rocks, or have to reel it in every time we have to slow down. Constantly reeling it in would make for a very tiresome trip, and would induce negative feelings into our positive environment. The simplest solution would be to tell the other boat to keep up, but that just isn't going to make a difference and I don't want to hound. They are great people and dear friends, just a bit absent minded and flighty when on the water (they admit it themselves).

Let's look at it in different way. Let's say you want a sinking lure to never go deeper than a specific depth (say 15 feet), but you want that lure at least 25 yards behind the canoe. I'm thinking the idea is something like using planer boards, except having it basically straight back from your pole. I'm basically looking for a "set it and forget it" type of trolling set up, where once the lure is out where you want it, you don't have to mess with it unless you hook up or stop fishing to portage. In the past I have used floating baits for this, but this year I'd like the option of trying something different...like the Shadzillas that MT has been talking about.

RW

Shadzillas weigh about 6oz so you will want some fairly stout braid to run them. If I were running Shadzillas on a travel day (without a depth finder) I would not run it very far behind the boat, maybe a medium cast behind and run it at 10ft. When you stop you could let it sink and not worry about it unless you were near shore or shallow. Watch your line when you stop as it sinks..........if the lure does hit bottom just give it a snap up and off and reel in a few feet. Eventually it will end up directly underneath the boat hanging in mid water. I would then let it plummet to the bottom and jig it a while while awaiting your dear dopey friends ( i have a few like that ;-) When you take off again it will plane back out. I don't see a big advantage to putting the thing back a 1/2 mile especially without a depth finder. Run up on a reef and lose it.

I believe a big fish in 20 ft will come to 10ft if its interest is engaged sufficiently. Try and paddle quietly without lots of banging.

*dont lose your rod
*dont get hooked
*do have the right pair of pliers
*dont drop the right pair of pliers in the water
*let the small pike run around a bit before bringing them in (Shadzillas catch plenty of small fish)
*dont forget super glue
*make sure it is swimming straight after each fish as the metal harness can get bent.

You will definitely want to get a lure wrap to secure the lure on portages as those hooks are menacing in the extreme and they need to be put out of harms way. let me know if you can't find the right wrap.

Zig-zag or loop back to the slow canoe to keep trolling and cover more territory?

MT,
I do bring a depth finder, so I can adjust running depth if needed.
I would like to know what you suggest for a lure wrap. I've never used one, but this year I will be bringing a dedicated rod for big lures so it would probably be a good idea. I will be using a 7' heavy baitcaster rod running #50 PowerPro braid with a #100 fluro leader attached with a FG knot. And yes, I'm using a solid rod holder, and a pair of 9" needle-nose pliers. In case you didn't already guess it, I've read many of your posts, and watched your video ;-). Thanks for all the great info you post.

Bobber,
I like your suggestion. Ashamed to admit it, but I never even thought about it. I guess I've always been too focused on getting to the next lake, and going backwards never crossed my mind. The zig-zag idea is intriguing. I'll probably try that first. I hope it doesn't drive my bowmate crazy.

RW

A few questions.......did you already pick up the 100? I like it but I think I am going to downsize to 80 or even 60. I know ice guys go much lighter but the pike don't have as much zing in the colder water.

I have been bitten off with a jig / pig with 40 floro so even though I have read where guys drop down to it I am not so keen on 40b. I will probably use 80 and then have 60 if I hit a clear lake. The 100 is probably overkill even though the Shadzillas run just fine with it.......I'm still learning!

I definitely suggest lure wraps for any exposed hooks if your going to be carrying rods with lures attached. Small wraps are easy to find but something for bigger baits not so much but are even more important IMO.

Bait Glove

So your going to give it a shot. I hope you connect with a few heavyweights........dont horse them in as you run the risk of pulling the hooks especially with the braid. If your rod is a bit on the stiff side ease up on the drag after the hook set as big head shakes can easily tear the lure from the fishes mouth. They aren't going anywhere so there is no rush to get them boatside unless they get into tall cabbage. Even then just get directly above them and pull them straight up.........dont panic like I did on Isle Royale and play the "pop 'em or stop 'em" game (my Grouper mentality took over > Bad decision).

"RackWrangler"........I am hoping that is in reference to a game played on slate tables that I am dearly fond of and not a moniker of mischief. In any event we will await your results with baited breath ;-)

BTW.........what kind of knot do you plan on using to attach the heavy floro to the lure?

Heavy line can be tricky if your not careful. I strongly suggest you get a Tie fast tool and tie a 3 turn gryp knot. NOT 4 turns.......NOT 5 turns........3 loops around the main line, feed it back through the tool as per the instructions and then a quick little snap to remove the lure from the tool. Wet and tighten slowly.........the knot is correct if you feel a distinctive "click" feeling as it turns over and seats itself (you will only feel this on heavier weights of line). The tag end will be standing straight up and parallel to the running line. If it is off to the side it is wrong.

You will learn to love the Tie Fast tool for a variety of other situations as well. As a rule of thumb the lighter the line the more wraps..........40lb line gets 4 wraps and 6lb test gets 6 wraps. The physics are good as the wraps surround the running line and as pressure is applied they tighten around the main line.

It has limitations however and its effectiveness decreases as the diameters of the line and attachment point get similar or worse get smaller. Then other knots do better. But for tying a small diameter line to a larger diameter attachment point there is no equal and it excels with heavy lines and particularly heavy fluorocarbon. $8 well spent........If you already have the 100 still get the regular tie fast tool as 100 will still work fine but it is the max. They make a salt water version of the tool as well but it is far less diversified than the fresh water model.

When I saw the subject line, I assume the thread was initiated by MT, as he's a clever, curious, creative fisherman. MT, you've found your kin!

quote missmolly: "When I saw the subject line, I assume the thread was initiated by MT,

I used casting bubbles once to great effect on what certainly must be the stupidest fish on the planet............ On Elizabeth Lake in Glacier National Park it was one Arctic Grayling after another.

"When I saw the subject line, I assume the thread was initiated by MT, as he's a clever, curious, creative fisherman. MT, you've found your kin!"

missmolly,
I'm not so cleaver or creative. I just copy what people smarter than me do, and maybe slightly modify it to fit my wants or needs.

I was introduced to bubbles in Colorado while fishing from shore for trout. I could not figure out how to get the tiny lure out far enough. Finally a local fisherman took pity on me and showed me how to use a bubble. I loved the ability to toss the #0 or #1 Mepps a long way and catch nice fish. I've since used them with great success casting Mini-Mite and icefishing jigs to crappie and gills. I like how they pull through the water, and how you can adjust the weight and/or buoyancy by adding or subtracting water.

MT,
I have not bought the 100# leader yet. I was just going off your video. I will likely drop down to 60# as I plan on being in the Pine Lake (EP 68) area, which I hear is very clear.

For the knot, I have usually used an improved clinch or Palomar knot when tying fluro to the lure or snap-swivel. I've read a few posts on other forums that suggest a crimp for anything over 50#. Until this trip, the heaviest line I've used has been 30# braid. I've used 15# fluro leaders while fishing for walleye in pike waters, but that's it. I looked up the Tie-Fast Tool and watched some videos. My only concern is I know that Fluro is sensitive to "burn" when sliding the knot tight. Wouldn't this be a problem with the tool since you have to slide the knot a couple inches to tighten? I understand that you would lube the line before tightening, but I'm still concerned. Maybe I'm overthinking things again...I've been known to do that.

I was thinking about using a 4 foot leader and using a quality snap-swivel between the fluro and the lure. This would make swapping lures easier, but I don't know if it would cause any problems. Remember, I want to use this rod for Shadzillas, big spoons, and maybe a large topwater. Thoughts?

RW

Oh, and as for the name, it was neither pool, nor women, though I enjoy both. It is in reference to my other loves, the Jeep that I was driving when I found this site, and whitetail hunting. Boy, I still miss that Jeep, but family comes first and TJ's are not family friendly.

-RW

Family comes first......or at least over other worldly personal interests........your a good guy RW.

A few thoughts.........why not go longer with your leader? Do you have the Utube video to the FG knot I posted several months earlier? There are many ways to tie the FG knot and this was the easiest method by far. Again let me know......I have it bookmarked and it would be easy to put it up. Keep an eye on the FG knot.......one time I had it start to come apart (the tag end was visibly hanging) and it failed. Probably operator error.........last summer however all was well with each knot for the entire trip.

Why not go 6ft with your leader? If tied correctly the FG will go right through your guides with no problem wether casting or trolling. It is very slim and trim and has replaced the Slim Beauty knot I used to be so pleased with. The FG is easier to tie and even slimmer and seems to be even stronger. Very nice!

The only place the ball bearing Sampo snap swivel belongs is on the big spoon. Don't worry about speed and ease of changing lures. You shouldn't be changing that often.

As per the Tie-fast. A long and drawn out back story.........I had always scoffed at knot tying tools and considered them for folk who don't know what they are doing. Then on a 3 day offshore charter trip I got to fish next to Martin. Martin was legendary........the ultimate snapper man and was much envied for his extraordinary catches of the delicious, difficult to fool and elusive Mutton snapper. If you were a good Mutton man you had "arrived". Martin was a regular on the overnight and 3 day party boats. I had seen him regularly in the Middle Grounds off Tampa and again in the Dry Tortugas off Key West. His leaders were long (8ft) and they were always Fluorocarbon. I learned much from Martin and emulated his style which was at first quite difficult and tiring and required that I re-purchase my equipment (again!). He held long rods aloft at the one o'clock position like a bird dog on point for hours and hours at a time. Thus long light rods were needed..........I spent inordinate amounts of money to "be like Martin". My 8ft Loomis Pelagics, modeled after what Martin used, are snapper deluxe outfits and allowed me to hold the big outfit aloft, feel the bite, and follow them the required 4ft down before setting up. I have not seen Martin in many years but I have largely become him, or at least as much as student can become as the master.

But back to being able to actually fish next to Martin.........usually I was assigned several spots away and observed him from a distance (He's got ANOTHER one!). What I kept noticing when I fished next to him was his propensity to take something out of his pocket when retying.........finally I asked him what he had in his hand and he showed me..........the Tie Fast tool! Of course I promptly overcame my prejudice and knew instinctively that if the best snapper fisherman I had ever seen used it he must use it for a reason.

I have been using the tool for close to what must be 15 or twenty years now and know its positives and negatives both in fresh and salt water intimately. Tying Fluorocarbon is indeed one of its most positive (among many other) attributes. It excels with the material, which if you have used Floro to any great extent, know that it is persnickety at times. You will trust me on the use of the 60 floro you intend to purchase and the relationship with the tie fast, that is if you are the smart cat that I think you are. I have used that combination for many years to catch fish which would put any canoe country fish to shame in the fight department. Fish which leave bruises on you by the time you get them in (seriously). Tying clinch knots or polamar with 60 is no good........been there, done that. You will come back with a curly twisted piece of line and no fish or lure. And why use crimps? I use crimps for anything over 150lb test but thats it and I usually tie a knot of sorts first before crimping. Crimps can and will fail if not done correctly.

But heres the rub and you must internalize this.........I had to learn through MUCH (years) trail and error before I realized why sometimes the Tie Fast is the cats meow and other times it wouldn't stick. It excels in tying small diameters of mono or fluorocarbon to other diameters equal or larger than itself. For example.........you could tie 8lb test to the fat eye of a Heddon torpedo directly. Try doing that with a clinch knot. Or 8lb test to a 5/0 worm hook. Not that you would do that but you could. Where the tie fast has limitations is in tying to diameters smaller than itself.......then almost any other standard knot will work great. The converse is not true.........regular knots do not tie well to diameters larger than the mono/floro. Try it and see for yourself. My first inclination when tying ANY terminal tackle knot is to reach for the tie fast tool. Remember.........for 60lb 3 wraps! For 8lb, 6lb, 4lb line use 6 wraps. Just a gentle little snap (don't pull the knot slowly off the tool) gets the knot off the tool. Wet and pull slowly.........I like to seat the knot (especially fluorocarbon) at about 75% of the way there by pulling relatively slowly..........I pause and loosen the tension briefly and then continue to tighten. Test and snip closely. Not sure what the relaxing of the knot does 3/4 of the way through the process but it does seem to help. If you pop the knot more than once on the test vary the turns by one. If it still doesn't stick use a different knot as the physics are bad (most likely a smaller diameter eye than the line). But usually you will have a knot which tests out very nicely. Again the difference with the Gryp knot is the coils encircle the running line and actually grip or tighten around the running line actually strengthening itself the more pressure which is applied (to a point ;-)

I suppose I could of saved some time and just said use the tie fast.........but knowing why is always paramount in any educational process and thus the superfluous details. Use as you see fit but it is tested and true and will not disappoint. Keep the split ring on the Shadzilla vs a snap (the thicker diameter of the split ring better matches the diameter of the 60 than the thin single strand of wire of a snap which can actually "cut" through your line if enough pressure is applied).........60 floro and a tie fast and your in business. Lastly.......dont forget you must be able to cut the 60. I do not suggest a knife as that is an accident waiting to happen. Perhaps your long handled needle nose has a wire cutters included? Try and avoid using whatever snips you have to cut your braid with as the same tool you cut your 60 as the 60 is very hard and will eventually deform the tool to the point where it will not cut your braid efficiently (again, been there, done that).

quote RackWrangler: "I was wondering if anyone has tried using casting bubbles, regular bobbers, or something else to keep their lure from sinking too far while trolling. My concern is if I'm trolling with either a heavy swimbait, spoon, or an spinner, and my partner catches a fish, my bait will fall to the bottom and get hung up while he fights his. I'm sure someone has thought of this before. Other than using a floating or suspending lure, what can be done?

RW"

Is a husky jerk not an option or are you specifically referring to using a spoon.

quote Basspro69: "

quote RackWrangler: "I was wondering if anyone has tried using casting bubbles, regular bobbers, or something else to keep their lure from sinking too far while trolling. My concern is if I'm trolling with either a heavy swimbait, spoon, or an spinner, and my partner catches a fish, my bait will fall to the bottom and get hung up while he fights his. I'm sure someone has thought of this before. Other than using a floating or suspending lure, what can be done?


RW"

Is a husky jerk not an option or are you specifically referring to using a spoon."

BP, I've used Husky Jerks in the past with good success, but this year I wanted to try large swimbaits like a Shadzilla, or musky sized spoons. That is why I was looking for some type of flotation to add to the line to keep them from dropping too deep when we slow or stop.

-RW

MT,
I really appreciate you taking the time to give a thorough explanation of the reasoning for using the Tie-Fast, and it's limitations. I completely agree that knowing why you need to do something is much more important than just "cuz I said so". I will be sure to pick one up and practice with it over the summer before my trip in August. With my fat fingers, any help with knots is welcome.

My reasoning for the 4 foot leader is two fold. First, I am unfamiliar with the FG knot, but I have not had good luck in the past with casting a knotted line though the eyes. The second is purely financial. I'm kinda cheap and I can but 100 yards of 60# leader pre-cut 4' leaders for $13 through Bass Pro. The same line in a 100 yard spool costs $80. The cost savings would allow me to buy a few more of those musky lures. I don't see the toothy fish noticing the difference between a 6 or 8 foot leader and a 4 foot one.

Good to know about the 60# fluro chewing up cutters. The 9" pliers that I have does have a cutter, so I'll probably use that most of the time. I also have a nice set of aluminum fishing pliers with swappable cutters that I will use for every other cutting task. I always bring one extra set of cutters in case I screw up the first ones. Thankfully, that has not happened in the 4 years that I have been using that pair, but they are small and light insurance.

Again, thanks for all the wonderful advise you give. It is much appreciated by weekend (or more accurately monthly) warriors like myself.

-RW

quote RackWrangler: "

quote Basspro69: "

quote RackWrangler: "I was wondering if anyone has tried using casting bubbles, regular bobbers, or something else to keep their lure from sinking too far while trolling. My concern is if I'm trolling with either a heavy swimbait, spoon, or an spinner, and my partner catches a fish, my bait will fall to the bottom and get hung up while he fights his. I'm sure someone has thought of this before. Other than using a floating or suspending lure, what can be done?



RW"

Is a husky jerk not an option or are you specifically referring to using a spoon."

BP, I've used Husky Jerks in the past with good success, but this year I wanted to try large swimbaits like a Shadzilla, or musky sized spoons. That is why I was looking for some type of flotation to add to the line to keep them from dropping too deep when we slow or stop.


-RW"

Ok that makes sense. Too bad no one makes a neutrally buyoant spoon, or at least not that im aware of.

RW

You can get the Segaur 60lb 25 yd spool for about $28. Go with 6ft leaders and wind that FG knot right through your guides. No problem. I like your combination of the 50lb braid and the 60 Floro........has the right ring to it. I am less enamored with the idea of 4ft leaders which are probably much closer to 3 ft leaders by the time you tie the joining knot and then change lures a few times........Blah! The 25 yard spool will give you 75ft of leader material which will last many years if kept out of heat and sun. The Shadzilla despite its size could be considered a finesse bait since its presentation is often slow while trolled from a canoe. Might the longer leader make a diff? That would be a strong "MAYBE".

If you are dead set on the 4ft leaders I would use another approach.......I would imitate QM Zulu deception. That being a "predator and Prey" relationship. He puts a swivel above the Zulu and while doing its dance it looks for all the world like the Zulu is chasing the swivel and trying to eat it. This is a big time trigger for all predators wether water or land based........eat something while its busy making its own living. You could achieve much the same thing by putting a nice shiny swivel in front of your Shadzilla which could easily look like a small shiner minnow with a smaller fish (Shadzilla) following it. We rig like that in Salt Water all the time and it is commonly accepted wisdom. But if it were me I would get the 25 yd spool of 60 leader material from Segaur. That gives you more flexibility.

Here is the link to tie the FG knot

FG Knot

You will be a bit clumsy with the tie fast at first (at least I was) until you develop a methodology. Here is how I use it.........Feed the line through the channel as per the instructions.........You will loop the line under and towards you creating a full circle around the tool with the first loop landing at the very tip of the tool.........the key is to "trap" each loop with your forefinger as you make it so it doesn't go anywhere while you are creating the next loop. 3 loops with the 60 and then back through the channel. Grab the tag line and give it a quick little pop to get it off the tool. Wet and tighten slowly.......when the knot "clicks" and the tag end is straight up you have it.......piece of cake and super strong.

Your cutters on your pliers will handle the 60 perfectly but will make a mess of braid. For that you need quality scissors or that handy little green cutter they sell at Bass Pro. Do not cut the 60 with the little green tool........it will cut it fine at first but eventually it will deform the tool and make it inadequate for its primary purpose of cutting braid.

Here is a link to the tie fast......the Gryp knot is at the 3;20 mark........there is also paper instructions included with the tool. Note how each loop is "trapped" with the forefinger.



Tie Fast

One last thing..........handle your braid with gloves. I use fingerless weight lifting gloves or fingerless paddling gloves or fingerless biking gloves while working with braid or mono or floro except super light stuff. The reason being is you can wrap it around your wrist while checking the strength of your knots and you don't have to worry about hurting yourself. Do not underestimate how deep braid can slice through you while applying major pressure. Same with the 60lb..........I wrap the 60 around my wrist at least 3 times and then I try and break it while testing a knot. I can pop 50 but I can't usually pop 60 if its tied right. Yup you need to crank down on this stuff to make sure its right. And to do that you will need fingerless gloves. Fingerless is the way to go because you still have the dexterity to work...........I can't tell you how many times I have tested and popped my crews knots even after lengthy instruction.

More sage advise from MT. I'm going to have to print this thread and take with me so I remember it all. Thanks.

-RW