Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Not to be morbid but...
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pilot |
quote butthead: "Press the button on my PLB. That's exactly what I was thinking. |
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riverrunner |
Some thinking and preplanning goes a long ways in helping with the situation. My trip a week ago went from it plan to a base camping trip in about 2 seconds my partner slip and fell and hurt his hip and leg. If he would have broke his hip or femur it would have turned into a rescue mission. Pre planning and training I highly recommend people get some first responder training or wilderness first aid training. I was once a certified EMT during my career I had many hours of training even a little bit of knowledge goes a long ways. The biggest factor it helps eliminate the panic factor. Also don't be afraid to ask for help I have found wilderness travelers well go out of their way to help another. Even if it means ruining their whole trip also. After this trip we well be seriously thinking of electronic means of signaling for help. Dead bodies are a lot easier to deal with then a injured person there is no need to risk oneself to take care of them. No matter what you do they are dead. There books and books written about this kind of stuff the knowledge is there seek it out. Again a little fore thought and planning goes a long ways. Let hope we all have death and injury free tripping but in a split second it can change. |
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Jackfish |
quote riverrunner: "I have the advantage of having to deal with people who have died from many causes, natural to very violent deaths. I have seen and handle dozens of dead bodies been on rescue missions recovering them. " What do you do, Duane? |
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riverrunner |
quote firemedic5586: "Field dress and quarter? I always kid my tripping partners about this in in reality it well never happen. Having field dressed and hauled out many game animals. A human would be just has hard physically to do and a lot harder mentally to do unless you are a psychopath. But still makes for some good laughs on a trip. |
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dentondoc |
1) Secure the body, if possible (i.e., place it in some type of protective covering). If the death is accidental, try not to disturb the scene as best as possible. 2) Press the 911 button on my SPOT. (Most of my traveling partners carry one also.) 3) Wait for authorities to arrive. 4) Have each party member independently write notes of what happened and anything they were doing before, during and immediately after the incident, along with a timeline of these events. Taking these steps should assist law enforcement in putting the pieces together, especially if the death was not from natural causes (e.g., heart attack). dd |
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Blatz |
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Northwoodsman |
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shock |
I also have thought of this and if it was me and only one other person, I know I couldn't portage out a canoe and a body, and I would hate to sit with a body waiting for help. If a popular portage is close, I would sit there waiting for other groups to send help when they are able, the more groups, the faster the rescue. :( |
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FOG51 |
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missmolly |
quote FOG51: "I guess this subject has came up a time or two in our camps. I always told my sons "if I go down, you can give me CPR [they are all military trained so they know how to give CPR] for 3-5 minutes if I'm not with you then, stop, or if you don't want to do CPR I won't hold that against you, no one needs to know either way. If I'm dead take my Leatherman off my belt, my Buck sheath knife and sheath off my belt, my buck pocket knife out of my pocket but leave my BIC because the Devil might need it. Take my drivers license stick it my shirt pocket, wrap my body in a small plastic tarp we carry to cover firewood and get the gear and yourselves out and contact the Ontario Provential Police dept. My son [when just him and I go] is fully capable of paddling our tandem with our gear in it for weight. FRED" Of course, if they revive you with CPR, you're now deep in the bush with broken ribs, which is a whole other problem, but at least you get to keep your Buck knife! |
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Kobykat |
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Porkeater |
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QueticoMike |
quote drnatus: "Actually the groups that I have gone with have talked about this. We would do our best to protect the body from animals/weather- tent, tarp, cover with rocks, etc. This sounds like what I what do. |
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A1t2o |
Assuming natural causes like a heart attack or a stroke, not sure if an accident or even a bear attack would make any difference. Do you stay there looking for help until you are able to find someone who can contact emergency services? Do you haul the body back then call? Do you leave them there and go get help as soon as possible? I know this is a random topic that hopefully no one will ever need to know the answer to but I lost my grandpa recently and it puts a lot of "what ifs" in your head. (He was 92 and we knew it was coming for a while so we were prepared for it, this is not a looking for condolences thread, I'm just curious.) My assumptions here are that it is a more remote area with no cell service and you are not likely to see very many people. If it were near Ely or an outfitter then going to them or contacting a passing group to send a message would be obvious. An EP without an outfitter or somewhere where there is not a whole lot of traffic seems questionable on what the right thing to do would be. |
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butthead |
And I have already discussed this possibility with the contacts I have listed. butthead |
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drnatus |
If feasible, leave two people with body, while others paddle out and contact sheriff. Would not have anyone be alone- either paddling out or remaining with body. Safety of the living would take priority over the dead. |
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mirth |
Morbid yes, but better to think about and game out when you're not in panic mode or in shock. |
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walllee |
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Canoearoo |
On a different note, we have talked about what to do if the dog were to die while in the BWCA. We haven't figured out that answer yet. |
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BnD |
quote walllee: "All depends on how the fish were biting, poor soul would have to wait if fish were jumping in the boat!!" Well said! |
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A1t2o |
quote Canoearoo: "In wilderness first aid we were taught if you can't use a PLB then put them in the tent and go for help. Watching someone die it enough trauma as it is. Getting them out would be to much. At least with the dog situation, you are not down 1 person and the dog isn't that heavy compared to an adult. I would carry it out personally, but it does somewhat depend on the distance from the EP. I am usually never more than 1 day's journey from the EP. I've only ever gone in groups of 2-4. Not having less than 2 per group and splitting up would not be possible for us. My biggest worry with leaving them there would be animals, especially bears. The last thing I would want is to have the retrieval crew show up to a mauled, partially eaten, or even a torn up tent and missing body. Would that really be a big concern? Probably my biggest worry would be if it happened when there were only 2 or 3 of us to begin with. Then you have gear and boats for 1 more than there are people to haul it, plus the body. I just don't think I would be able to leave them behind unless there was simply no way to bring them back. Even then, leaving them behind would be a tough pill to swallow. |
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Mad_Angler |
If it was group of 2, I think you don't have a choice. You have to leave the body. It would be too hard to portage. Larger groups have more options. A group of 3: I guess I would send 1 out and leave 2 there. It would be too creepy to be all alone. A group of 4: 2 out and 2 stay. I used to take my father to the BW. He said he didn't want to go anymore because he was afraid that he would die up there. I said that I was okay with it and the BW would be a swell place to go. For those trips, we were only 1 portage away from help. I was thinking that I would have to leave him and paddle out for help. |
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nofish |
If I'm with a larger group then at least one person stays with the body and at least one person goes for help. The more people I have in the group the more likely I'd be to send them all the way back to the EP/Outfitter for help. I wouldn't want to disrupt another groups trip unless I had to and if there are multiple people at camp and 2 good paddlers going for help then I don't see the need to bother any other groups unless we're days away from help which is rare in the BWCA. I'd want to leave the body alone for as little as possible out of respect for them. Presumably I'm likely going to be close to whoever it is that died, mostly I travel alone with my wife so I'd have a hard time leaving for longer than absolutely had to. |
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GreyOwl |
I would be curious to hear what the forest service or law enforcement's input would be on something like this. In general I don't think you are supposed to move a body. Personally I'd just as soon be buried and left there but doubt that is a good plan either. |
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missmolly |
Death Chill: Immediately after the heart stops beating, the body rapidly cools down until it reaches room temperature. This is known as Algor Mortis. Rigor Mortis: Without the heart pumping, blood coagulates in the veins, arteries and capillaries, causing the entire body to stiffen. Rigor mortis sets in around two to six hours after death. Decomposition: For a few days after death, some cells (such as skin cells) are still alive. Because of this, the live bacteria starts to break down and putrefy the body. Colour: First the body turns green, then purple, and then eventually black. Smell: The putrefying body gives off a sulphurous gas with a horrific smell, similar to rotten eggs. Bloating: This gas also builds up inside the body, causing the corpse to expand, the eyes to be pushed out of their sockets and forces the tongue out of the mouth. Blistering: A week after death, the body’s skin will blister so much that the slightest touch will cause it to fall off. And finally: A month after death a corpse’s hair and nails will fall out, and the organs will liquefy. The body then swells until it bursts open, leaving nothing but the skeleton behind. |
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Spartan2 |
Throughout our 42 years of canoe-tripping, I have never been a solo paddler, nor have I been strong enough to carry the canoe. In the early days (before 1998) that meant a Grumman. And even when we got the Bell, I never learned to carry it. Not saying it is an impossibility, but I never did it. Have no skill. So, while my first impulse, if left alone after Spartan1's death (we always traveled with just the two of us) would have been to leave him and get myself to safety. . .the reality is that I would have been unable to do that. Depending, of course, on how far out we had traveled. I would have no qualms about leaving a dead body. As far as I am concerned, once my husband is dead, he is no longer residing in that earthly shell, and his soul has gone on to be with the Lord. So what happens to the body is of less concern to me than getting myself out in one piece at that time. If I were the one to die suddenly, I would expect HIM to just put me someplace out of the way, and get himself to a safe place where he could find help to come back and retrieve my remains at a later date. But as far as getting my own self to safety after that unthinkable tragedy (and in our case, it was always more of a possibility than for the average couple, since my husband has been high-risk for many years) I would hope that I was on a route where eventually someone would paddle by that I could holler down/flag down and ask for assistance. Failing in that, I suppose the old standby of building a smoky fire is another possibility. We rarely went to an area where we didn't see another canoe in at least three days. I can yell pretty loudly when I am in a panic. But I would not have taken off into the BWCA across portages and lakes by myself. We bought a SPOT for our last trip. But before that we had nothing. Just a map and a compass. Faith in each other, and the hope that we could handle whatever happened. And I thought about it every single trip. |
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mcsweem |
Lots of you have heard my story. Water was rough and cold - no PFDs on. We were not able to recover Joe's body. The drowning happened early in the morning about 9:15am. I waited around camp until about 1 pm. We had made a smokey fire during a fire ban thinking a ranger would come, but they didn't, so another friend and I paddled back to Moose. It was windy and we were exhausted when we got to Moose. Luckily, a Latourell's tow boat saw us, thought we looked out of place and came by and picked us up. The forest service flew in the next morning and recovered his body. I had to call his mom and dad. I'll never forget his mom's scream when I told her Joe had drowned. I didn't really want to leave the drowning site, but I needed to find help. There were five more mostly newbies we left at camp. We made plans that if help didn't come the next day they would have to paddle out on their own. I still make trips, but am very cautious and careful and don't ever want to go through that again. Every year before my trip, I get very nervous and worried. I'm always fine once the trip has started. That's my two cents. |
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firemedic5586 |
Should be a lot faster and much easier than a bear.. |
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johndku |
I guess it would depend on how far into the BWCA you were. If I only had to paddle back to civilization, I guess I'd take them out with me. But if I had portages to traverse on the way out, I'm not carrying any dead weight with me! |
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paddlefamily |
quote Nomadmusky: "@jwartman59 +1 totally agree. I wouldn't take the risks considering the location or conditions as well. |
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BuckFlicks |
Leave me there - don't spend a lot of money extricating me, shipping me home and burying me in an expensive coffin and cemetery. I'll already be where I want my eternal rest to take place. I generally only take trips with one other person. Hauling a carcass out of the wilderness wouldn't be an option. If I was in a very remote area, I'd move on immediately and get USFS (or other local agency) help. If I was in a high use area, I'd wait for someone to come by and get them to go for help. |
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drnatus |
quote jwartman59: "my experience....... this still bugs me." No way should this bother you. IMHO, you did exactly the right thing. |
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A1t2o |
quote firemedic5586: "Heck, prop your buddy up in the canoe and finish the trip... It seemed to work out for Bernie's friends. " Is there some context to this? NVM I found it. |
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Kobykat |
quote firemedic5586: "Heck, prop your buddy up in the canoe and finish the trip... It seemed to work out for Bernie's friends. " That's hilarious. |
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missmolly |
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Nomadmusky |
You did the right thing, I can't imagine having to make that decision, which quite frankly was; put yourself and your partners at risk of death as well, or get out and make a call for help. If I were the frozen dead person, I'd hate to know or think anyone would risk their life to pick up my remains. Nomad |
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unshavenman |
quote billconner: "quote unshavenman: "If the deceased is at a campsite and you need to paddle out to find help, be sure to leave a single bag visible so people paddling by know the site is taken." Yep, I was posting tongue in cheek with a nod to the other thread ;) My buddy and I always tell each other that it will be down to the bottom of the presently occupied lake with the unfortunate other, and the winner keeps the dead man's gear. In reality though, we travel with a SAT phone and a PLB, so if the dead man's gear is not nice enough and worth portaging out, help can be called..... |
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mjmkjun |
quote LindenTree3: "FYI: My very fit fire crew and I have carried a number of injured and one dead person off various mountains during my career as a wildland firefighter. Good point, Lindy. No way could I lift dead weight of 170 lbs--being 170 lbs myself. Also, butthead's input on leaving the scene as is. It's kinda freaky though cuz of the bugs, creepy crawlers & meat eating scavengers. Glad to have lots of input here to process. Lots to think about......and some options I didn't consider before. |
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firemedic5586 |
quote A1t2o: "quote unshavenman: "If the deceased is at a campsite and you need to paddle out to find help, be sure to leave a single bag visible so people paddling by know the site is taken." If the water is cold enough and you can get them down past about 100ft, they will stay down there... No bloating or floating... As for divers, depending depth and lake location, you could end up with a metric ass ton of gear to portage in for a recovery. Not to mention this would be a shore dive as one wouldn't be going over the side from a canoe, well I guess you could, but getting back in would be a bugger.. |
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firemedic5586 |
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jhb8426 |
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dicecupmaker |
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A1t2o |
quote unshavenman: "If the deceased is at a campsite and you need to paddle out to find help, be sure to leave a single bag visible so people paddling by know the site is taken." LOL How bad would it really be to sink the body in 50-100 ft of water? Assuming that's what the deceased person wanted. Would they send divers to retrieve? |
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missmolly |
quote hobbydog: "I am ok with my body being left for the wolves, eagles and ravens. " A little bit of you in a tree. A bite in a wolf, raven, and eagle. Another bit in a raspberry bush. That's immortality. |
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billconner |
quote unshavenman: "If the deceased is at a campsite and you need to paddle out to find help, be sure to leave a single bag visible so people paddling by know the site is taken." Should this be cross-posted in the thread on claiming sites? Since I'm pretty sure on any of my trips I'm the most likely to die, I'm not the one needing a plan. I have had a spot for a long time so I guess that answers it in the end. |
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riverrunner |
quote LindenTree3: "FYI: My very fit fire crew and I have carried a number of injured and one dead person off various mountains during my career as a wildland firefighter. We have moved some fairly big bears out of the woods with the old green military stretchers. for better than a mile. But it is fairly flat ground where we hunt but can be really thick brush. Four guys one on each corner lift and go. Six makes it nicer as two can rest while four carry I seen it done with two guys but any thing over two hundred lbs is a real chore for two. It is work for sure lift carry rest as needed. In the BWCA it would be some home made contraption that most likely would not be as strong or have as good of handles on it. |
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mastertangler |
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butthead |
I'm not about to assume to know better, would check for life, if none my civil duty is to alert authorities soon as possible. Not to move or tamper with anything. Far as being charged for emergency services, that idea would prevent a lot of 911 calls. butthead |
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LindenTree3 |
It takes a minimum of 6-10 people using a Ked Board to carry a 170+ pound person off a mountain. The last 2-4 people have to bump ahead from the rear to the front, then you just pass the litter forward, between people. If anyone thinks they are going to carry deceased person very far, they may be in for a real surprise. Granted it would be easier on a level portage than the mountains, but it still will be a very difficult challenge at best. PS, I think this is a worth while topic, thanks for posting. |
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nctry |
quote LindenTree3: "FYI: My very fit fire crew and I have carried a number of injured and one dead person off various mountains during my career as a wildland firefighter. Yeah, that's how they taught in wfr classes. |
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hobbydog |
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unshavenman |
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SaganagaJoe |
As far as the OP's question, it would depend on how many of us were out there. If with a big group, I'd shuffle gear around the canoes and get out as quickly as I could. If by myself, I guess I'd leave him/her there and go for help. |
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andym |
Personally, we have a plb and I would hope to hit it while they were still alive. But that isn't always possible. If it doesn't work, we carry marine emergency whistles and hopefully could attract attention within a day or so. |
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boonie |
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riverrunner |
quote Jackfish: "quote riverrunner: "I have the advantage of having to deal with people who have died from many causes, natural to very violent deaths. I have seen and handle dozens of dead bodies been on rescue missions recovering them. " Sheriff's deputy then a state trooper for over 33 years total time. |
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jwartman59 |
We were kayaking the Banning Rapids on the Kettle river. It was March, deep snow in the woods and the sections of river with mild current were covered with ice. A man had drowned running these rapids the prior autumn, his body was never found. We were easily the first people to travel the river that year. We were making jokes about what we would do if we found the missing man's body. 1970s vintage whitewater kayaks were really tippy. You had to have a bomb proof eskimo roll. In the extreme conditions we were paddling in, it is unlikely that anybody could execute a roll as the water temps would definitely shock your body. Of course, I found the body. He was up against the ice below the last rapids. The body was in good condition as i am sure it had been frozen all winter. To pull the body out of the river would have been really risky. There was a very good chance of flipping and getting washed under the ice. We left him. This was way before cell phones and magical tech devices. It was probably two hours before we contacted the sheriff and gave him info regarding the location of the missing man. They apparently sent out helicopters. That evening, I got a call from the sheriff. They found no body and were wondering if we were pulling a prank. The body disappeared under the ice only to be found many months later (August) by a fisherman. Years later, sitting here in a soft chair and summer warmth, I wonder what we could have done differently. I felt horrible that we left the guy like that. However, we had to consider our own safety. This still bugs me. |
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Duckman |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNJxDWX-qes |
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johndku |
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MikeinMpls |
I always travel solo or with my wife, so if she died, it would be more than just getting her out... it would be managing to keep my head while doing so. I likely would paddle out solo, if it's not too far, or I'd ask someone for assistance to tandem paddle out. I'd offer to pay for their trip and their next trip, since my imposition would be so great. I'd do what it took to protect the body from heat and animals. I'd go to the sheriff or rangers and tell them what's going on. Carrying a dead body, by oneself, is a near impossible task, especially over portages. I guess I'd pay for the extraction. Mike |
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pswith5 |
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quark2222 |
Tomster |
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jcavenagh |
If the deceased is my only partner I guess I would wait a day or two to see if I could whistle (3 blasts) down a passing canoe. If there are 2 or more alive, then one or two stay with the body while the rest paddle out for help. I think I'm going to get an InReach. |
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BSW |
Makes me sad thinking about it but death is a reality everyone should think about. ~~ |
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mjmkjun |
I can't press SPOT button cuz I'd be responsible paying the charges. (I assume.) I'd secure corpse in a tarp --tying it up nice and neat--and place n his/her canoe to tow. This is one instance when I'd be dragging a canoe along portage(s). No way could I leave it behind. I just couldn't. |