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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Going into Canada from the BWCA?
 
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GraniteCliffs
01/11/2018 08:53PM
  
billconner: "Sure seems "all the water-communications" means you can use the shortest route if all on water."\
I would like to agree with you. However, I don't think that has been the practice in recent years and would hate to see someone rely on our interpretation and then get tagged.
 
billconner
01/11/2018 07:05PM
  
Sure seems "all the water-communications" means you can use the shortest route if all on water.
 
AmarilloJim
01/03/2018 03:32PM
  
If you don't get out of your canoes I think all you would need is an Ontario license. Others can chime in if this is not correct.
 
walleyevision
01/03/2018 06:00PM
  
I'm curious, how much leeway do the border agents give? Half a canoe, a whole canoe's length over the border, or does it have to be pretty egregious?
 
RC
01/03/2018 03:32PM
  
Last summer I was along the border two separate trips and both times we got stopped. Once by the Canadians and once by the Americans. The Canadians said they parked their motor boat along the border and watched and waited for canoes to cross over onto the Canadian side of the lake. They said they issued lots of fines that day.
 
timatkn
01/03/2018 05:25PM
  
AmarilloJim: "If you don't get out of your canoes I think all you would need is an Ontario license. Others can chime in if this is not correct."


I don’t think that is correct. There is a treaty for travel along the border and allowing mutual use of portages, but fishing over the border is not allowed and not covered by the treaty. I know one year the Canadians brought in a float plane and ticketed several parties on Crooked for fishing on the Canadian side. On maps or GPS it is pretty easy to know if you are on the Canadian side or not most of the time.


T
 
timatkn
01/03/2018 09:16PM
  
For people I have heard that got fined...All I heard was they were obviously over the border. If it was a narrows area, I’d expect some leeway...if you are fishing around an island that the map says is in Canada I’d expect a fine.


T
 
billconner
01/03/2018 06:40AM
  
Wables: "billconner: "IIRC for day use in a canoe in Quetico, you'd need a "daily vehicle permit" for each canoe. Call the office, tell them what you'd like to do. They try to accommodate."



I did this a few years ago. We camped on Crooked between Friday and Saturday Bays. The permit was about $150 after courier delivery IIRC. Fantastic fishing on the Canadian side of Crooked, and our day trips to Argo were worth the price of admission.




Trip report "


That sounds like the annual day pass. For just a day, $ 11.25-20.00. 2018 fee schedule Here.
 
AmarilloJim
01/03/2018 08:01AM
  
Will you be just fishing the border lakes?
 
walleyevision
01/03/2018 08:17AM
  
The plan was to fish mainly Jackfish Bay, but we're camping on the northern end so the idea of trying north of the border in that region is intriguing.
 
Jaywalker
01/03/2018 10:35AM
  
And to keep it all legal, don't forget to stop and declare at US Customs in Ely upon re-entering the US.
 
timatkn
01/12/2018 08:56AM
  
AmarilloJim: "timatkn: "AmarilloJim: "If you don't get out of your canoes I think all you would need is an Ontario license. Others can chime in if this is not correct."




I don’t think that is correct. There is a treaty for travel along the border and allowing mutual use of portages, but fishing over the border is not allowed and not covered by the treaty. I know one year the Canadians brought in a float plane and ticketed several parties on Crooked for fishing on the Canadian side. On maps or GPS it is pretty easy to know if you are on the Canadian side or not most of the time.




T"
Why would someone be ticketed on the Canadian side if they had an Ontario fishing license?"


Many of the people did not have an Ontario license, they just assumed they could fish anywhere on a border lake with a MN license. But still the treaty applies to travel not fishing so to cross the International boundary for any other purpose whether the border is water or not once you cross the boundary for fishing you need an RABC and if those waters are part of the Q you need a permit too. I don’t know if I am explaining it correctly? It is this way across Canada and MN. If you fish LOTW and cross over into Canada to fish (not touching land) they are all over you with needing an RABC and Ontario outdoors card and license—-plus border patrol may get you coming back in. They have really clamped down on both sides since 911.


T
 
timatkn
01/12/2018 09:08AM
  
AmarilloJim: "andym: "I thought the treaty allows you to paddle anywhere on the border lakes along a reasonable route to pass through and also use the portages. It does not, however, allow you to fish anywhere on the lakes. For that, you need to stay on your side. The relevant text is, "It being understood that all the water-communications, and all the usual portages along the line from Lake Superior to the Lake of the Woods; and also Grand Portage, from the shore of Lake Superior to the Pigeon river, as now actually used, shall be free and open to the use of the citizens and subjects of both countries."



Webster-Ashburton Treaty "



That's how I interpreted it. I understand you would need the proper fishing licenses for both sides but if you didn't set foot on Canadian soil do you really need a RABC and a Quetico permit? That's why I was curious to find out what these "tickets" were actually for. Of course going up into North Bay might be pushing it!"


Yes you do need an RABC and you would need to check with US customs post trip as well in your scenario. Crossing the border for any reason other than travel requires you go through customs (that’s what the RABC is) and have a park permit. Now most of the time customs doesn’t check the Quetico but if they do the fines are quite expensive I have heard. A Q fine might be a couple of hundred dollars.


T
 
timatkn
01/12/2018 09:15AM
  
GraniteCliffs: "billconner: "Sure seems "all the water-communications" means you can use the shortest route if all on water."\
I would like to agree with you. However, I don't think that has been the practice in recent years and would hate to see someone rely on our interpretation and then get tagged. "


That would be a good question to ask an authority, but I am not sure who to ask. Maybe the park superintendent or someone in Customs? The problem with a lot of these questions is sometimes you can ask different people and get different answers. Once you get the fine/ticket you really have no leeway, it would cost more to go back to Canada and fight it in time away from work, travel, lodging than just paying the fine :)


T
 
AmarilloJim
01/12/2018 10:34AM
  
I don't think I would ever fish the Canadian side of border lakes for reasons you state. And I know I wouldn't get a Quetico permit and a RABC permit just to do that.



 
AmarilloJim
01/10/2018 08:45AM
  
timatkn: "AmarilloJim: "If you don't get out of your canoes I think all you would need is an Ontario license. Others can chime in if this is not correct."



I don’t think that is correct. There is a treaty for travel along the border and allowing mutual use of portages, but fishing over the border is not allowed and not covered by the treaty. I know one year the Canadians brought in a float plane and ticketed several parties on Crooked for fishing on the Canadian side. On maps or GPS it is pretty easy to know if you are on the Canadian side or not most of the time.



T"
Why would someone be ticketed on the Canadian side if they had an Ontario fishing license?
 
yellowcanoe
01/10/2018 09:27AM
  
need an Outdoors Card too.. And a Quetico daily use Permit. And a RABC permit


Fishing licenses are two part.. One is the Outdoors Card
 
billconner
01/10/2018 08:01PM
  
AmarilloJim: "timatkn: "AmarilloJim: "If you don't get out of your canoes I think all you would need is an Ontario license. Others can chime in if this is not correct."




I don’t think that is correct. There is a treaty for travel along the border and allowing mutual use of portages, but fishing over the border is not allowed and not covered by the treaty. I know one year the Canadians brought in a float plane and ticketed several parties on Crooked for fishing on the Canadian side. On maps or GPS it is pretty easy to know if you are on the Canadian side or not most of the time.




T"
Why would someone be ticketed on the Canadian side if they had an Ontario fishing license?"


If you're in the Quetico, perhaps you'd get a ticket if you didnt have a valid a park permit
 
andym
01/10/2018 08:24PM
  
I thought the treaty allows you to paddle anywhere on the border lakes along a reasonable route to pass through and also use the portages. It does not, however, allow you to fish anywhere on the lakes. For that, you need to stay on your side. The relevant text is, "It being understood that all the water-communications, and all the usual portages along the line from Lake Superior to the Lake of the Woods; and also Grand Portage, from the shore of Lake Superior to the Pigeon river, as now actually used, shall be free and open to the use of the citizens and subjects of both countries."

Webster-Ashburton Treaty
 
walleyevision
01/02/2018 06:47PM
  

We are planning a trip next summer to Basswood and will be entering at Mudro and paddling to and camping on upper Jackfish. From there we'll be awfully close to Canada. It got me thinking, if we wanted to day trip to the Q to fish, what would we need to do to be legal?

Thanks in advance.

WV
 
walleyevision
01/02/2018 07:33PM
  
Thank you! I guess we'll be staying on the southern side of the border. With our time limits, it wouldn't make sense to go to PP or Crane Lake.
 
HighnDry
01/02/2018 07:33PM
  
Or a long paddle from Crooked to Lac La Croix ranger station. You could coordinate with an outfitter such as Anderson's or Zup's when they drop a group off at say, Black Robe to ferry you over to the LLC ranger and then back. It would seem like a lot of hassle and expense for you and your group but it's certainly do-able if you're game.
 
billconner
01/02/2018 08:00PM
  
IIRC for day use in a canoe in Quetico, you'd need a "daily vehicle permit" for each canoe. Call the office, tell them what you'd like to do. They try to accommodate.
 
Wables
01/02/2018 10:54PM
  
billconner: "IIRC for day use in a canoe in Quetico, you'd need a "daily vehicle permit" for each canoe. Call the office, tell them what you'd like to do. They try to accommodate."


I did this a few years ago. We camped on Crooked between Friday and Saturday Bays. The permit was about $150 after courier delivery IIRC. Fantastic fishing on the Canadian side of Crooked, and our day trips to Argo were worth the price of admission.



Trip report
 
Banksiana
01/02/2018 07:18PM
  
Each member of the party (or the parent of minor children) will need an RABC.
You will need a Quetico permit for the party that can only be obtained (in summer) by passing through a ranger station the day of entering the park (Prairie Portage or Crane Lake).
Each member of the party will need a passport for return to the USA.
Each angler will need an Ontario Angling License and Outdoor Card.
Legally it cannot be done from Crooked Lake.

 
mgraber
01/14/2018 11:27PM
  
An outfitter friend of ours said he had(or knew, I can't remember for sure)a group that had paddled quite a ways north in to the Canadian side of Crooked because they were lost. They were picked up by float plane and flown out. I guess they got In a lot of trouble. I just can't remember the details. He just said that the customs agents did not give the same leeway as the park rangers, in fact I'm not sure the rangers even have authority over that. I think their authority is fishing and camping permits.
 
GraniteCliffs
01/10/2018 08:40PM
  
Yes and No.
Yes to traveling the border route.
No to veering into what is clearly a Canadian bay or shoreline that is not on the route. Of course you veer into Canadian waters as you approach a portage on the Canadian side, which would be allowed.
When you are on a big body of water such as Basswood you should keep to the middle or the US side.
Make sense?
 
AmarilloJim
01/10/2018 10:58AM
  
I understand the outdoor card goes hand in hand with the Ontario license. Why would you need a RABC and a Quetico permit if you were only on a border lake?
What were all of these tickets for that people are sighting?
 
GraniteCliffs
01/10/2018 03:16PM
  
When you think of border lakes think of a thin line running somewhere down the middle of the lake or so. The "or so" can be an important piece of information. Stray too far over that thin line running somewhere down the lake and you have entered Canada. And vice versa if you are coming from Canada and cross the line into the US. But just because you are on the water really makes no difference since you have left one country and entered the other.
In your mind figure there is a legal border crossing checkpoint anywhere along that line. It makes no difference of you are on land or on water. Once you cross you have left one country and entered the other. As a result you need all the paperwork to enter either country and all of the park permits and fishing license stuff.
The exceptions, of course being certain portages smack on the border.
 
GraniteCliffs
01/11/2018 12:49PM
  
billconner: "GraniteCliffs: "Yes and No.
Yes to traveling the border route.
No to veering into what is clearly a Canadian bay or shoreline that is not on the route. Of course you veer into Canadian waters as you approach a portage on the Canadian side, which would be allowed.
When you are on a big body of water such as Basswood you should keep to the middle or the US side.
Make sense?"



I disagree slightly. I think for instance it's fine and in the spirit of the treaty to use the English Channel if on a BWCA permit travelling length of Basswood. Pretty clearly Canadian. I think there are other places like this. Any route through the numbered islands on LLC for instance. "


I think in the old days I would have agreed with your viewpoint. Not that anyone cared back then.
But today you hear too many stories of people being tagged for being just a bit over the line even on border routes. The English Channel and LLC numbered islands are very clearly in Canada and to follow the border route you would not have to go through them. I would not veer that far into Canada without expecting to get pinched.
 
mgraber
01/06/2018 01:04AM
  
They can be pretty picky at times. Our kids were warned while floating down the middle of the Basswood river casting towards the Canadian bank. But I think that is actually reasonable and our kids had been warned not to do that.I also know someone who was ticketed for making a cast just after launching below Wheelbarrow falls after taking the Canadian portage around. I've heard while traveling on large lakes they give a lot of leeway unless you are obviously heading in to Canadian territory or you are fishing. If you are fishing, better have a gps, lol.
 
billconner
01/11/2018 06:38AM
  
GraniteCliffs: "Yes and No.
Yes to traveling the border route.
No to veering into what is clearly a Canadian bay or shoreline that is not on the route. Of course you veer into Canadian waters as you approach a portage on the Canadian side, which would be allowed.
When you are on a big body of water such as Basswood you should keep to the middle or the US side.
Make sense?"


I disagree slightly. I think for instance it's fine and in the spirit of the treaty to use the English Channel if on a BWCA permit travelling length of Basswood. Pretty clearly Canadian. I think there are other places like this. Any route through the numbered islands on LLC for instance.
 
AmarilloJim
01/11/2018 07:50AM
  
andym: "I thought the treaty allows you to paddle anywhere on the border lakes along a reasonable route to pass through and also use the portages. It does not, however, allow you to fish anywhere on the lakes. For that, you need to stay on your side. The relevant text is, "It being understood that all the water-communications, and all the usual portages along the line from Lake Superior to the Lake of the Woods; and also Grand Portage, from the shore of Lake Superior to the Pigeon river, as now actually used, shall be free and open to the use of the citizens and subjects of both countries."


Webster-Ashburton Treaty "


That's how I interpreted it. I understand you would need the proper fishing licenses for both sides but if you didn't set foot on Canadian soil do you really need a RABC and a Quetico permit? That's why I was curious to find out what these "tickets" were actually for. Of course going up into North Bay might be pushing it!