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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Penn State says wilderness too risky
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| nofish |
The crazy part is it doesn't appear they even consulted with the group to discuss the trips they took or ways to improve safety while still offering trips. They also shut down trips for the cave exploration group and the scuba diving group. I can see those two groups having more inherent risk but wouldn't it make sense to at least talk with the groups first. Perhaps a simple waiver could have solved the liability issue or finding a way to sever any direct ties to the university leaving the club to operate under its own power, most student led clubs operate that way for the most part anyways. At my university clubs were pretty much standalone entities. The only time you reached back to the University was if you wanted school funding. If you wanted funding you had to have a University staff member listed as an adviser (most adviser did nothing and just lent their names to the groups) and you had to follow University protocol on how funding can be spent. They could also crack down if they felt you were not representing the school appropriately. If you did not request funding then you were just a group of like minded students that happened to go to the same school and the University had no say in the goings on of the club. |
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| jcavenagh |
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| ozarkpaddler |
jcavenagh: "Seems to me that playing football is an extremely high risk activity..." (LOL) you're exactly right! BUT, there's dollar signs in athletics so........... |
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| OCDave |
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| WHendrix |
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| Frenchy19 |
jcavenagh: "Seems to me that playing football is an extremely high risk activity..." Especially under Patino and Sandusky.... |
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| AmarilloJim |
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| arctic |
Is it any wonder why fewer and fewer young people partake in outdoor recreation, while at the same time their rate of mental illness increases? |
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| ozarkpaddler |
nofish: " Perhaps a simple waiver could have solved the liability issue The only thing surprising is that more schools haven't done this. I don't think there's a liability waiver that a slick personal injury lawyer couldn't get around? |
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| OtherBob |
Wonder what might be the risk assessment of the Waffle House or downtown Toronto or even Penn State's own youth athletic camps? O well, more permits for the rest of us, heedless fools that we are. Bob (the other one) |
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| missmolly |
An organization's prime directive is to protect itself, whatever they assert otherwise. In short, this isn't about protecting the kids or doing what's best for them. Arctic, I was born on the West Coast and have lived in the middle, South, East Coast, and Northeast. I haven't witnessed other Americans being more wilderness savvy than Easterners. |
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| Gadfly |
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| Minnesotian |
Nature Deficit Disorder |
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| mastertangler |
Minnesotian: "Idiots. If people lose contact with nature, they won't fight for it. Thats exactly right. The other thing I have concern over is urban folks who do not understand or appreciate the lifestyle and culture surrounding activities like hunting and fishing and will demand that it be stopped........the tyranny of the majority as it were. |
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| HighnDry |
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| nctry |
Bubble wrap socks... That might have a chance... |
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| OldFingers57 |
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| thlipsis29 |
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| andym |
This is truly sad. I had great times hiking and mountain climbing in college with my friends. And as for the comment about the east coast, this was from MIT in Boston and we were heading north to the White Mountains. I also wonder what they are going to do about their geology department. Field work is part of the education and often takes place well away from civilization. Mine involved setting off explosives in the Mojave desert. My wife's involved carrying guns to protect from bears in Alaska where she was often off with a few other students away from everyone else. Actually, one geology department I know spends a lot of their time white water rafting. A significant percentage of the faculty and grad students are certified guides. |
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| nooneuno |
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| TomP |
ozarkpaddler: "jcavenagh: "Seems to me that playing football is an extremely high risk activity..." Competitive cheer has a higher concussion rate than football! |
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| 4keys |
andym: " This is truly sad. I had great times hiking and mountain climbing in college with my friends. And as for the comment about the east coast, this was from MIT in Boston and we were heading north to the White Mountains. I also wonder what they are going to do about their geology department. Field work is part of the education and often takes place well away from civilization. Mine involved setting off explosives in the Mojave desert. My wife's involved carrying guns to protect from bears in Alaska where she was often off with a few other students away from everyone else. Actually, one geology department I know spends a lot of their time white water rafting. A significant percentage of the faculty and grad students are certified guides." I was also wondering about geology departments. Not to mention other classes that involve the outdoors, such as forestry. I even had a canoeing and archery p.e. Class. I think as long as everyone is aware of the possible hazards, events are made as safe as reasonably possible, and everyone is aware that not everything can be controlled, then let them be. |
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| 4keys |
andym: " This is truly sad. I had great times hiking and mountain climbing in college with my friends. And as for the comment about the east coast, this was from MIT in Boston and we were heading north to the White Mountains. I also wonder what they are going to do about their geology department. Field work is part of the education and often takes place well away from civilization. Mine involved setting off explosives in the Mojave desert. My wife's involved carrying guns to protect from bears in Alaska where she was often off with a few other students away from everyone else. Actually, one geology department I know spends a lot of their time white water rafting. A significant percentage of the faculty and grad students are certified guides." I was also wondering about geology departments. Not to mention other classes that involve the outdoors, such as forestry. I even had a canoeing and archery p.e. Class. I think as long as everyone is aware of the possible hazards, events are made as safe as reasonably possible, and everyone is aware that not everything can be controlled, then let them be. |
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| old_salt |
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| Mocha |
of course there is a lawyer out there willing to fight the assumption of risk form. why can't people just agree to take responsibility for their actions?! i got a blister from raking, who do i sue over that? i have no trees in my back yard so they obviously belong to a neighbor on either side of me. |
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| awbrown |
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| arctic |
missmolly: "Arctic, I was born on the West Coast and have lived in the middle, South, East Coast, and Northeast. I haven't witnessed other Americans being more wilderness savvy than Easterners. " Just rocking' the boat, missmolly! I've lived in Montana and Oregon, and a huge number of folks in those places don't really use the outdoors much either. The preservation of our open spaces and wild lands depends on each generation valuing them. |
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| ozarkpaddler |
nooneuno: "The single best thing we can do to eliminate "risky" behaviors in this country would be to eliminate lawyers. I taught my kids at an early age if you shake hands with a lawyer, check your wallet, check your watch, and count your fingers before he leaves the room....." I'll have to remember that one (LOL)! Back in the late '90's I actually discussed a business plan with a couple friends when we were planning a BWCAW trip. My wife and I had been discussing it for some time. One of the guys was the son of a physician I worked with, really nice guy; he was an attorney. I was thinking I could work as a nurse from October-April and do all-inclusive guided trips to the BWCAW May-September. I would be offering a business plan that was unique, I would actually drive them, set up lodging before and after, and provide all the gear and canoes. I owned a plethora of equipment, a couple of canoes, and thought all I needed was a couple thousand more for PFD's another canoe, new tents and sleeping gear. I thought it was a GREAT idea? My lawyer friend asked me if I was prepared for the possibility of losing EVERYTHING my wife and I owned? I said "Liability insurance will take care of that." Besides, I knew what I was doing, I was an experienced tripper. Then he reminded me that you CANNOT control all the variables; despite skills and planning, things can go wrong. Auto accidents, catastrophic storms, broken bones, lightening...... I decided my "Dream" would remain a dream and not a second career. I still wonder, though.... |
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| HighnDry |
nctry: "I understand the liability thing. Pretty soon though you'll have to be wrapped in bubble wrap to cross the street. But yeah, football, soccer... All that stuff to us would be a bigger risk. I'm just glad we have a good core group here that introduces the outdoors to others. We'll just have to step up the pace. Ha! You would sound like popcorn as you walked across a portage...pop pop pop! I agree with your point. When I rocked climbed for a gym course in Ligonier (about an hour and a half east of the Univ. of Pittsburgh), I signed a release along with everyone else. It would seem that Penn State wishes to go further than that. Maybe that nittany lion (where my sister went) isn't as tough as my p-burgh panther :) |
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| arctic |
These are activities that should be ENCOURAGED, not only at universities, but throughout k-12 education, as well. |
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| HowardSprague |
awbrown: "I think the key part of the decision is "student led" outings. Not much can go wrong there. (I say tongue and cheek)." Yeah, I noticed that too and I guess they still have an outdoor program at the school - separate from this club - but it's guided or supervised, and the trips cost more $. |
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| QueticoMike |
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| hexnymph |
Arctic… My crew is all from PA… Do we need to have a competition on who is more outdoorsy? I’m your huckleberry. ;-) Hex |
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| missmolly |
hexnymph: "Former Penn State student here... We didn't need no stinkin "organization" to go crashing around in the woods or mucking through the caves. Hunters Point is an awesome place. Caving is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's brutal. We once planned to camp in the mouth of a cave, leaving our sleeping gear there while we explored, but we ended up wading through neck high water, so when we returned to our sleeping bags, we were wet and the wide mouth of the cave was losing too much of the Earth's heat. It was January, so we moved to a tighter-mouthed cave on the other side of the valley, wading through a creek to get there. Brutal. |
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| scat |
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| The Great Outdoors |
OtherBob: "The AP reports that Penn State will no longer allow the century old Outing Club to organize outdoor, student-led trips. The hiking, camping and other outdoors- focused activities are too risky. A pro-active risk assessment rated Outing Club activities high risk because they take place in remote environments with poor cell service and distance from emergency services.Wonder what might be the risk assessment of the Waffle House or downtown Toronto or even Penn State's own youth athletic camps? Well Bob, (the other one) this is how it starts, First it's too risky, or we don't like this, we don't want this, whatever rears it's ugly head. Next comes the people that read these assessments, and nod in agreement! Then the politicians realize that this newly fabricated danger needs guidance through legislation!! Then restrictions galore come pouring out, (like BWCA permits) that only allow so many to participate. When that gets to the point of too much bickering, drastic rules enter the picture. Finally the activity is deemed to be far too dangerous, or far too intrusive, or whatever and the activity is now banned, or only allowed in small numbers guided by "experts" who have been trained and registered by the government, kind of like fishing and hunting guide permits are now. Is anyone seeing any similarities to anything else?? The end :) |
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| arctic |
hexnymph: "Arctic… My crew is all from PA… Do we need to have a competition on who is more outdoorsy? I’m your huckleberry. ;-)" I thought my buddy and I were Huck Finns! Must be a few more out there! |
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| arm2008 |
scat: "I saw a kid the other day with a bike helmet on playing in the playground. Give me a break. We would have beat that kid up back in the day. Of course his mommy was there watching his every move. My mom wouldn’t have gone to the playground with us in a million years. She just wanted us out of the house and out of her hair. Go break your neck, it’ll be good for you." I can think of two other reasons they were wearing a helmet. 1. They really liked it, thought it was cool and fun, and was having a riot in their own little world. 2. They had a medical condition that required it, and supervision. Oh, and my little sister would have beaten you up if you had screwed with some kid on the playground. |
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| arctic |
The Great Outdoors: "Then restrictions galore come pouring out, (like BWCA permits) that only allow so many to participate." The permiting system doesn't keep people out. It just limits the number of people using the area at any given time. |
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| sns |
I know there is at least one outdoor equipment manufacturer in the area (Organic Climbing)...hope they and other like-minded companies get involved. |
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| missmolly |
arm2008: "scat: "I saw a kid the other day with a bike helmet on playing in the playground. Give me a break. We would have beat that kid up back in the day. Of course his mommy was there watching his every move. My mom wouldn’t have gone to the playground with us in a million years. She just wanted us out of the house and out of her hair. Go break your neck, it’ll be good for you." I also wondered if the kid suffered from seizures. I've worked with many children who wore helmets to protect them from seizures. |
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| The Great Outdoors |
arctic: "The Great Outdoors: "Then restrictions galore come pouring out, (like BWCA permits) that only allow so many to participate." With all due respect, limiting the number of people from using something is a Classic example of keeping people out!! :) |
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| Corsair |
You would not believe the amount of communication around ethics and keeping channels of communication open. For them to not discuss the issue with the students involved is a bit hypocritical to me. |
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| arctic |
The Great Outdoors: "arctic: "The Great Outdoors: "Then restrictions galore come pouring out, (like BWCA permits) that only allow so many to participate." I don't think so. Many wilderness areas in California have a permit system and daily entry quota just like the BWCA does. Without it the resource would be over-run, people would be camping everywhere, and the reasons for traveling in wilderness areas would be lost. National and state parks also have quotas. So does the White House. |
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| carmike |
Thankfully, my school doesn't have this problem...yet. We have a decently stocked outdoor "store" that allows free rentals to anyone affiliated with the school, and a bunch of kids go on trips during the summer to various far-flung places. Someone might know more about this study than I do, but I remember reading about a bunch of kids who took a long canoe trip (I think into the remote Canadian hinterlands) when they were all teenagers. Fast forward thirty years to when their kids are teenagers, and of the entire group, only ONE would allow his kid to take a similar trip. |
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| The Great Outdoors |
arctic: "The Great Outdoors: "arctic: "The Great Outdoors: "Then restrictions galore come pouring out, (like BWCA permits) that only allow so many to participate." Karl, you make my point that limiting the number of people, keeps a certain number of people out that may have wanted to enter. My original comment was intended to point out the similarity of some group, in this case Penn State, restricting or forbidding some rather benign activity, and how those intentions can snowball into something far greater than it was originally intended. This is not meant to be an attack on, or a debate about the BWCA, just using it as a comparison. |
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| inspector13 |
carmike: "I work at a university and am therefore quite familiar with the copious amounts of nonsense being emitted from their various institutional cloaca, but this one is up there. " So, what you are saying is this one is not a golden egg? |
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| walllee |
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| HighnDry |
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| mapsguy1955 |
missmolly: "Shame. PA is full of woods and waters. Neither have I. In fact, I have found easterners to be more conscientious about the outdoors than, say, southerners. But I guess I am stereotyping. There are certainly people everywhere with bad habits. |
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| mapsguy1955 |
QueticoMike: "The drive up to the Boundary Waters is more dangerous than the time spent in the wilderness." Amen!! |
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| primitiveguy |
Mocha: "oh, what the crap... geeez.... back in the day they didn't even wear pfd's and carried packs that could cause hernias. |
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| missmolly |
arctic: "Americans have evolved to the point where we celebrate and expect weakness. Everybody gets a prize just for showing up. Mediocracy is the new norm. To be fair, Arctic, Americans have been sold the notion that America isn't safe. If it's not safe, it's best to keep your kids home, behind dead-bolted doors and security systems, pacified by home entertainment systems, smartphones, and video games. It's best to buy cars with air bags inflating from three sides and homes so big and grand there's no reason to leave. Meanwhile, dad can stockpile weapons and ammo. All this fear drives consumption and consumption drives the economy so that every year the GDP is bigger, bigger, bigger. Meanwhile, pesky things like math and stats show it's safer outside than when we were kids and a home is the most likely place kids will be molested. These are the good, old days. "According to a 2003 National Institute of Justice report, 3 out of 4 adolescents who have been sexually assaulted were victimized by someone they knew well." Another driver of fear is that families used to comprise an heir and a spare and another spare and another spare and another spare.... When you're down to one or two, you have more to lose. I'm grateful I was raised without a leash. I rode my bike to Canada a couple times when I was kid, was left in the wilderness by my dad when I was fifteen for five weeks, walked the Appalachian Trail upon graduating from high school instead of attending the ceremony, etc. America is not as dangerous as we're led to believe and because I was exposed to real danger here and there, I actually have a creep-o-meter that works. Of course, every tragedy involving a child with parents of means is reported and reaches us via our smartphones and tablets and Facebook feeds. |
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| arctic |
Fear of being sued for every real or perceived accident, abuse, or discrimination also has put a real damper on organized activities. I grew up in the Boy Scouts in the 1970s, and despite a focus on being safe it was pretty loose, and a lot of freedom was granted to us boys. Today, after seeing numerous scout troops in the BWCA/Quetico and talking to scout leaders, there is no way I would be a Boy Scout. It is also much harder to find people who will coach high school sports these days for many of the same reasons. |
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| arctic |
My oldest son just came back from studying abroad in New Zealand for four months. He did both the largest bungee jumps and swings in the world (over a massive gorge), and the only thing he signed was his credit card receipt. No waivers at all. In America you would spend half an hour signing various waivers and cry-baby bullshit. He was delighted to see young elementary kids playing rugby and rough-housing on the same types of playground gear that I grew up with in the 1960s and 1970s. Sadly and understandably, New Zealanders and Australians no longer have much respect for Americans. |
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| Dewey, Cheatem & Howe |
nooneuno: "The single best thing we can do to eliminate "risky" behaviors in this country would be to eliminate lawyers. I taught my kids at an early age if you shake hands with a lawyer, check your wallet, check your watch, and count your fingers before he leaves the room....." Obviously, you and your kin have had a bad experience or two with some lawyers along the way ... most of them do suck until they step in and save you from your ignorance or idiotic mistakes ... just sayin ... |
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| inspector13 |
For a report in 6th grade, I took a city bus downtown St Paul, alone, to the Ramsey County Courthouse for the day and sat in on some hearings and court cases. Both my parents and the school allowed it. That would have been 1972-73. Bad things even happened back then. A few years earlier a girl was found raped and murdered at DC playground. I’m not sure what has changed since the 1970s. |
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| nctry |
We always said we were safer in the woods then in the concrete jungle. One of our members lost his wife to being hit by a car... Really puts that into perspective. There is a certain risk taken by true wilderness travel. There are very few places one can call true wilderness. More north of our border than united States. The BWCA is a wilderness by name, but not really untamed land. More like reclaimed land. You can minimalise risks there by a lot with modern technology. While it's not a true, wild wilderness it is a place where you can go for an experience that will brighten and renew about anyone's spirit. To bad some people don't get it. The benefits way outweigh the risk? |
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| carmike |
inspector13: "carmike: "I work at a university and am therefore quite familiar with the copious amounts of nonsense being emitted from their various institutional cloaca, but this one is up there. " Ha! I'd guess not. |
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| missmolly |
Yep, that's it. There are too many wussy adults, who want to sue for money rather than work for money. |
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| scat |
Arm2008, your sister sounds like a tough chick. Maybe she has anger management issues. I just hope she doesn’t go out and buy herself an AR15 and a ticket to the movies. Don’t they make pills for that these days? Therapy? Siracha sauce? |
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| nooneuno |
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