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Pinetree
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review
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Pinetree
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May 8th release
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MHS67
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smokey bear: "Not only did forest service let the fire burn. They added 1800 gallons napalm-like material to really get it going. Then it took off and there was no stopping the fire."
If I remember correctly the aluma jell (napalm) was use to tie a couple lakes together to halt the spread of the lightning caused fire in a certain direction. Some times it is used to fire out or backfire a section of line when it is too dangerous to have crews hand fire that section. It is also used when there is a very big firing operation and hand firing just won't get the job done in time. I suspect its option one.
I would hope that firing operation would not have happened if the forecast had shown a wind event. I can't remember how much time there was between the firing operation and the wind event.
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Mocha
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finally got the book. it's pretty good so far. i'm reserving judgement til the end.
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MHS67
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WhiteWolf: "analyzer: "I always thought it hypocritical of the gov't, to aggressively go after posniak in the Ham Lake Fire, but then let the pogami creek fire simmer for 3 weeks, before it eventually grew exponentially. How can you go after a camper, for "allowing" a fire to get out of hand, and then intentionally let another fire do the same.
And if they truly were able to charge him, because he put a single piece of paper, in a campfire, thus making it an illegal trash fire, many many of us would be guilty of that.
I guess we should all take note."
Excellent point.
+1-- they had numerous chances to put out the Pagami Fire before it got big. Weather being my job- I was wondering why they were waiting so long. It moved 40+ miles in 6 hours all because they waited and were not proactive. They knew what was coming with wind and low RH. At least I hope they knew. Sometimes I think not and that they get weather reports 48 hrs old.... Even a 7th grade Earth Science kid could see the issues 3 days before the Pagami blew. The synoptic weather flow didn't bode well. "
I 'm pretty sure the USFS policy back then was to allow lightning caused fires to burn and just monitor their progress. There was no attempt to put them out. As for the weather report. The articles I read said the wind event was not in the forecast. Now, if that is true I have no way of knowing. I do know, when I have been on major fires, most of the time spot weather forecast are pretty accurate. However they are not right all the time.
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LindenTree3
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MHS67: "smokey bear: "Not only did forest service let the fire burn. They added 1800 gallons napalm-like material to really get it going. Then it took off and there was no stopping the fire."
If I remember correctly the aluma jell (napalm) was use to tie a couple lakes together to halt the spread of the lightning caused fire in a certain direction. Some times it is used to fire out or backfire a section of line when it is too dangerous to have crews hand fire that section. It is also used when there is a very big firing operation and hand firing just won't get the job done in time. I suspect its option one.
I would hope that firing operation would not have happened if the forecast had shown a wind event. I can't remember how much time there was between the firing operation and the wind event. "
The aerial firing operation was around 10 days before the fire blew up, and it was designed to keep the fire between a few lakes and not allow it to get any bigger.
The problem with that specific firing operation was that it was implimented when it was too wet. The fuel used to fire out the area simply started small fires that smouldered and didn't burn clean. (I was there during the firing opeeration) Then it continued to get hotter and drier until 10 days later when the wind event happened and the fire blew up.
IMHO as a professional firefighter, doing the aerial firing operation when the conditions were not cunducive to achieving a clean burn was the biggest contributing factor of the Pagami fire getting so large. (Roughly an extra 80,000 acres)
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ducks
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Definitely going to read this book..... Talking to people on the Gunflint Trail after that fire and talking to Bill at Sawbill just days after the Pagami fire was very interesting. I can't imagine what they were going through as these huge fires were coming at them.
Lost in the Wild was one of those books I just couldn't put down and I anticipate this one will be the same. I met the author Cary Griffith when he was doing a book signing for a different book at the Trading Post in Grand Marais....... neat guy and a really fun conversation learning more about the ins and outs of the two stories from the book Lost in the Wild.
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Pinetree
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LindenTree3: "MHS67: "smokey bear: "Not only did forest service let the fire burn. They added 1800 gallons napalm-like material to really get it going. Then it took off and there was no stopping the fire."
If I remember correctly the aluma jell (napalm) was use to tie a couple lakes together to halt the spread of the lightning caused fire in a certain direction. Some times it is used to fire out or backfire a section of line when it is too dangerous to have crews hand fire that section. It is also used when there is a very big firing operation and hand firing just won't get the job done in time. I suspect its option one.
I would hope that firing operation would not have happened if the forecast had shown a wind event. I can't remember how much time there was between the firing operation and the wind event. "
The aerial firing operation was around 10 days before the fire blew up, and it was designed to keep the fire between a few lakes and not allow it to get any bigger.
The problem with that specific firing operation was that it was implimented when it was too wet. The fuel used to fire out the area simply started small fires that smouldered and didn't burn clean. (I was there during the firing opeeration) Then it continued to get hotter and drier until 10 days later when the wind event happened and the fire blew up.
IMHO as a professional firefighter, doing the aerial firing operation when the conditions were not cunducive to achieving a clean burn was the biggest contributing factor of the Pagami fire getting so large. (Roughly an extra 90,000 acres)"
I was on the Island river just east of the big fire until that morning it just exploded. The day before with very hot dry conditions it got very active than settled down. The morning it broke loose it was 86 degrees F. and very very dry. I remember looking toward the number chain and seeing a fire produced cloud looking like a atomic bomb just went off. At that point and day it was very dry,in contrast to the wet conditions the month before.
Lucky I thought maybe it was time to shorten my trip not knowing what was to come. The fire created much of its own conditions.
I have zero problems with letting the fire go up to a certain point,but the day before it took off should of rang a bell and action should of been taken.
Like always good hindsight or after the facts knowledge.
Still remember the big bull moose that morning in the Little Isabella river cooling off,he didn't want to move.
Got to the entry point where my truck sat and yellow flags everywhere to keep people from entering.
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joeandali
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Just finished the book. It was very good. A bit technical at some points. Worth the purchase and time to read. It helps that I have been in the area to understand the path of the fire.
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bwcasolo
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3/4 the way thru, can't put it down.
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analyzer
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I always thought it hypocritical of the government to aggressively go after Posniak in the Ham Lake Fire, but then let the Pogami Creek fire simmer for three weeks before it eventually grew exponentially. How can you go after a camper for "allowing" a fire to get out of hand, and then intentionally let another fire do the same.
And if they truly were able to charge him because he put a single piece of paper in a campfire, thus making it an illegal trash fire, many many of us would be guilty of that.
I guess we should all take note.
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schweady
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Thanks for the heads up. I am next in line for the book in our library system.
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WhiteWolf
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analyzer: "I always thought it hypocritical of the gov't, to aggressively go after posniak in the Ham Lake Fire, but then let the pogami creek fire simmer for 3 weeks, before it eventually grew exponentially. How can you go after a camper, for "allowing" a fire to get out of hand, and then intentionally let another fire do the same.
And if they truly were able to charge him, because he put a single piece of paper, in a campfire, thus making it an illegal trash fire, many many of us would be guilty of that.
I guess we should all take note."
Excellent point.
+1-- they had numerous chances to put out the Pagami Fire before it got big. Weather being my job- I was wondering why they were waiting so long. It moved 40+ miles in 6 hours all because they waited and were not proactive. They knew what was coming with wind and low RH. At least I hope they knew. Sometimes I think not and that they get weather reports 48 hrs old.... Even a 7th grade Earth Science kid could see the issues 3 days before the Pagami blew. The synoptic weather flow didn't bode well.
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Pinetree
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joeandali: "Just finished the book. It was very good. A bit technical at some points. Worth the purchase and time to read. It helps that I have been in the area to understand the path of the fire."
Yes it is a very good book. Also it makes it much more interesting if you know the area as you state.
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billconner
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I assume this is the Hamm Lake fire? I look forward to reading the book. Another article that might be interesting. Burned
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Mocha
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that was a good article about the man.
at the same time he was camped at his site on Ham, a group of USFS air quality people were camped at the other end of Ham lake. the wind was such that the fire traveled away from them so they didn't know the fire was happening for quite awhile.
outfitting staff went in the back way to Ham to evacuate them, their gear and canoes, and they were surprised to see the staff come into their camp, thankful to have the help out from their site.
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smokey bear
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Not only did forest service let the fire burn. They added 1800 gallons napalm-like material to really get it going. Then it took off and there was no stopping the fire.
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LindenTree3
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MHS67: "I am done reading, The Gunflint Burning. If anyone would like to read it I will send it to you. Larry"
I'll take it Larry if no one has spoken for it yet. I'll pass it on when I'm done.
P.S., here is the engine I'm captain of in Wyoming now. We have been on a few fires now.
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Northwoodsman
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I just finished it. It was hard to put down. It really does help to know the area, or to at least have been there recently. After reading this book, I will certainly pay much more close attention to campfires, weather, wind, humidity, and etc. I would hate to have the weight of something like this on my shoulders, even if I was following the rules. This is a must read.
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Pinetree
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For your info. I see Stu from the Boundary Waters Journal liked it.
Gunflint Burning
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Savage Voyageur
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I would like to read this. I will keep my eye out for this one.
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djwillco
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Great read! I wish I'd read this before some of my trips through the Ham Lake fire area over the last number of years.
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ozarkpaddler
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Savage Voyageur: "I would like to read this. I will keep my eye out for this one. "
Me too!
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plexmidwest
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I can't wait to get this book. Thanks for the heads up.
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landoftheskytintedwater
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Ada Igoe has a good article in a BWJ not too long after the fire as well.
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MHS67
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Anyone interested in reading this type of book might want to read, Inferno by Committee. Written by Tom Ribe. Its about the worst prescribed fire disaster in America. The Cerro Grande Fire in New Mexico. The book was given to me by my daughters in-laws. They were doctors at the lab during that fire. It is very interesting.
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plexmidwest
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They are already on ebay, I just got one for around $23.
John
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ParkerMag
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Went on my Kindle earlier this week. Look forward to the read.
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ducks
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Just requested a copy from the library. 10th in line and there are only 2 copies. It will be a while before I get my turn.
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MHS67
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LindenTree3: "MHS67: "I am done reading, The Gunflint Burning. If anyone would like to read it I will send it to you. Larry"
I'll take it Larry if no one has spoken for it yet. I'll pass it on when I'm done.
"
P.S., here is the engine I'm captain of in Wyoming now. We have been on a few fires now.
Hey Linden, just letting you know your book is in the mail. I asked the postmaster how long it would take to get to MN. He said the Pony Express leaves first light, should be there in about 5 to 7 days!! If not, I have a tracking number.
Larry
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MHS67
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The book is yours Linden. That's a nice looking engine! It should get the job done. We, in our area are finally getting to breath some clean air. Ferguson Fire is contained.
Whatever happens the Bean Gulch Fire Dept. is ready to go!!!
Would you send me a e-mail with an address. I will be going to town on Wednesday. 
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Mocha
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i also have a copy but it's in the hands of another reader. i'd be willing to pay it forward if anyone is interested.
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LindenTree3
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MHS67: "The book is yours Linden. That's a nice looking engine! It should get the job done. We, in our area are finally getting to breath some clean air. Ferguson Fire is contained.
Whatever happens the Bean Gulch Fire Dept. is ready to go!!!
Would you send me a e-mail with an address. I will be going to town on Wednesday.
"
Go Bean Gulch Fire Dept.! You're a true public servant, sacrificing, time, money and more, for your community for little to no compensation, I tip my hat to you Larry.
Email and addy sent.
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MN_Lindsey
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Currently reading right now!
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MHS67
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I am done reading, The Gunflint Burning. If anyone would like to read it I will send it to you. Larry
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Twins87
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FYI... anyone in the TV viewing area of Twin Cities PBS (or most other Minnesota Public TV stations) ... author Cary Griffith will be on "Almanac" Friday night at 7 talking about the book.
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Pinetree
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Twins87: "FYI... anyone in the TV viewing area of Twin Cities PBS (or most other Minnesota Public TV stations) ... author Cary Griffith will be on "Almanac" Friday night at 7 talking about the book. "
Thanks
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plexmidwest
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Look what just arrived... 
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Pinetree
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plexmidwest: "Look what just arrived... "
Now we can get a review of what one thinks of the book. When did you order?
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plexmidwest
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I ordered Tuesday 5/1 at 8 am. I am holding up reading until i paddle the Namekagon in 3 weeks, if I have the will power to wait. All my BW trips have been via the Gunflint Trail.
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Pinetree
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ducks: "Just requested a copy from the library. 10th in line and there are only 2 copies. It will be a while before I get my turn. "
In the past I used to donate a book to the library. Maybe that would be a good one for me to do again after a couple friends reads my book.
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djwillco
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Meet and Greet tonight with Cary Griffith (the author) at REI Bloomington tonight if anyone is interested! Bummed I won't be able to to attend. Be fun to hear the stories from "Lost in the Wild" told in person!
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Jackfish
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Mocha: "i also have a copy but it's in the hands of another reader. i'd be willing to pay it forward if anyone is interested."
Sheryl, I'd be interested when the book is available. Thanks.
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Duboly
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I just finished the book and thought Cary did an awesome job. It was hard to put down.
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H2o
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Good reading! I recommend it.
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MHS67
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Just finished reading the book. I agree it was very well written. I usually am not interested in reading books about fires. One thing that really struck me as odd. Because weather played such a huge roll in this fire, you would have thought the IC would have ordered up a meteorologist first thing. Instead you don't get a weather man till a type 1 team is ordered.
Side note, the firing boss for the type 1 team, Mike, from the West coast. His dad was my partner for 5 years when we worked at Raymond Station for Cal Fire. Last time I seen Mike was about 3 years ago. I got some training material from him for a class I was teaching.
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