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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: old folk camping
 
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KarlBAndersen1
07/03/2018 04:05PM
 
GraniteCliffs: "It is all about staying in good physical condition. Nothing more, nothing less. "


Yep. Stay active until you can't.
I'm 64 - not far behind you.
I, too, just did a solo and am glad I stay active. I walk - I ride my bike - I keep my head out of the lard bucket - I do stretches and some sit ups and push ups, etc. - not every day - but often.
You have to stay ahead of the monster, or he will catch you.
Don't get lazy - think of the benefits.

And if you sleep in a tent, get off the ground and switch to hammock camping. The amount of restful sleep you get in canoe country is priceless.
I'll NEVER! sleep another night on the ground unless absolutely unavoidable.
 
mjmkjun
07/03/2018 11:40AM
 
jhb8426: "I'm 72. 6 or 7 years ago I developed an extreme aversion to portaging and limited my trips pretty much to Sawbill with side trips to Alton. Lately, I've been staying at the Sawbill campground with day trips on Sawbill and Alton. I still enjoy the trip. "A man's got to know his limitations.""
That's pert-near the tune I'm humming now. I would add Fall Lake Campground to play with trolling motor mounted on kayak for fishing and playing around on the lake(s) wherever I can do so. I enjoy the act of paddling very much but the issue is diminished stamina.
 
SourisMan
07/03/2018 06:39PM
 
I'll do a solo this fall at 66. I find changing my mindset on some aspects of the trip helps. I used to attack portages, but don't approach them that way anymore. I double portage, enjoy the walk, have a snack etc.


Now that I'm retired, and can trip in the fall, I can go places that are easier to get to, but don't have to battle the summer crowd. I always bring a Hellinox chair, and FINALLY bought a good quality inflatable sleeping mat. The better sleeping mat has made a huge difference. By the way, I was a hammock camper for years. My hammock started bothering my bum shoulder, so I headed back to a tent.


I've never brought a Spot or inReach type device, but am shopping for them now. It was probably always a good idea, but more so for the 60 and 70 somethings.
 
BWPaddler
06/13/2018 05:33PM
 
Zulu, that was a great one!! And a nice strategy... watch you don't drink too much of the ensure or the prune juice.
 
DrBobDg
06/13/2018 05:47PM
 
mastertangler: "Bob, Cliff is right. No frontpacking, very, very bad idea. You might get away with it for a while but the potential for a major crash and burn with severe consequences is greatly enhanced when you can't see where your feet are going. When King Solomon (book of proverbs) mentions watching where you walk you know it's important.



You have a couple of options. One is just do another trip. The other is do what I do and get a couple of Watershed duffels. Transfer some of the weight off your back to your arms. Not so bad then. Carrying two is best and get them equal weight to keep balance. You will also find them very agreeable for managing weight in the canoe as they are easily shifted around.



And of course the organizational aspect is superb. One duffel has all my cook gear.......another might contain all my clothing. Well constructed, completely waterproof and they carry superbly ( they don't hang low and bang your knees). "




Yep you are correct....If the portage is dicey then that isn't a good idea. I also use 5-6 gallon buckets with gamma seal lids to haul stuff to reduce the weight of individual bags.


dr bob
 
AtwaterGA
06/13/2018 05:49PM
 
Still going canoe camping at 73 years old. Three weeks ago guided a group of Boy Scouts on a three day canoe camping trip on the Alapaha River in South Georgia. Will leave in one month for canoe camping in Ontario. The one thing I have decided to start taking is a folding stand with a toilet seat. My knees will no longer stand squatting.
 
GraniteCliffs
06/13/2018 06:53PM
 
A few years ago I was on a solo somewhere north of North Bay in the Q. Two old guys came across the portage as I ate a snack. I am old but they had me by ten years. I took a load across and met two even older guys coming my way. Both guys had a hold of the front of the kevlar canoe and were slowly but surely dragging the canoe across the portage. They laughed and said "Its a rental."
I talked with the four guys on my return trip across the portage. If memory serves they were all from Florida and on their annual adventure trip. They had come from the top of the Quetico and were headed to the border at Prairie Portage. They finally offered up the fact that they were in their late 70's and one guy was into his 80's! They did not seem to think much about their age but I was truly impressed and very inspired.
 
Dave Wennlund (@kickapooviking)
06/16/2018 08:21PM
 
I believe one can take in a lot more of the wilderness by slowing down, being still at a base camp and cruising around a small area. I've been on a few trips with gung ho partners who cared only for covering mile after mile after mile. That got old, and dangerous when foul weather hit and they refused to stop!

 
Pilgrimpaddler
06/16/2018 09:16PM
 
riverrunner: "Don't think I would still be sleeping in a tent if it wasn't for my down mat sleeping pad.



Best money I spent as far as a pad goes a very good one makes a huge difference in the morning. "



My Exped Downmat was a revelation. The first time I slept on it I remember waking up after a sound sleep and thinking I was at home on my bed! Expensive at the time but worth every penny. I let my sons use the Thermarests now (and those pads still take up a lot of pack space).
 
nctry
06/17/2018 08:10AM
 
Helinox make nice chairs... I wonder if a nice folding lightweight Walker is next.
 
nctry
06/11/2018 04:24PM
 
Back support in the canoe... With out it my whole body suffers. ..
 
nm1
07/02/2018 09:30AM
 
I’m 57. The adaptations I’ve made in the last few years are:


A Helinox chair, of course.
A hammock keeps my knees off the ground. Tents can be painful.
A good snort of cognac with 3-6 baby aspirin puts me right to sleep. YMMV.

 
billconner
07/02/2018 02:46PM
 
yellowcanoe: "Staying in shape is sometimes hard when you have to choose what joint needs replacing next. "


LOL
 
GraniteCliffs
07/02/2018 07:10PM
 
My other tactic: Recruit the young folks. One trip every year is with guys 17-23 years younger than me. Another is with my son, daughter and son in law. Can't figure it out: The portages on these trips are easier than on solos or the old guys trips.
 
analyzer
06/13/2018 06:24PM
 
You'll probably think I'm crazy, but besides bringing a camp chair, I installed boat seats in my alumacrafts. I usually fish in 4 hour sessions or so, but then the back really starts to ache. Since I put in the boat seats, no more back ache. I don't recommend it for most canoes, as your center of gravity becomes too high, but for my aircraft carriers, it's fine.


=====


This was the first time in 25 years that I didn't play on a broomball team and first time in 45 years I didn't play on a hockey team (I'm 53). After the first night of softball this spring, I was a wreck. It's as sore as I've ever been after playing softball. I'm convinced it was because I stopped playing winter sports, and hadn't used, or stretched those muscles in several months. My answer isn't to give up softball too, but rather to go back to playing winter sports.


I don't think we should give up our bwca trips, but rather find additional activities to keep us in shape the rest of the year.


My friends dad still plays racquet ball at 93!!!... and he still beats his son.


Rumor has it Old Man Blankenburg (if you know who that was) was building his new home, off the gunflint trail, and climbing on the roof when he was 93.


It CAN be done.
 
merlyn b
06/14/2018 05:00PM
 
Great posts! Dead and down-great catch, I laughed so hard i peed a little. Inspired to take a 7 day solo in aug. if I can get the res. Another thing I did on my May trip was to give up my huge Deluth pack and use a 70 liter backpacking pack. This forced me to be a little conservative and not take stuff just because I had room. I have always used a food pack but this time I put my food in a small duffel bag (about 15 x5x5 "gym" bag size ) the plan was to attach it to my pack but hand carried it instead. Canoe one trip, pack 2nd trip with food duffel in left hand paddle in right. Worked great! Used a twig stove rather than a fuel cook stove too.
 
jhb8426
06/14/2018 11:38PM
 
I'm 72. 6 or 7 years ago I developed an extreme aversion to portaging and limited my trips pretty much to Sawbill with side trips to Alton. Lately I've been staying at the Sawbill campground with day trips on Sawbill and Alton. I still enjoy the trip. "A man's got to know his limitations."
 
riverrunner
06/15/2018 02:34AM
 
Don't think I would still be sleeping in a tent if it wasn't for my down mat sleeping pad.


Best money I spent as far as a pad goes a very good one makes a huge difference in the morning.
 
BCA
07/06/2018 08:22AM
 
Ditch the old gear and Duluth packs. Replace with ultralight hiking gear and backpacks with proper hip belts and suspension. Every ounce counts.
 
johndku
06/10/2018 05:49AM
 
I'm only 59 but I've got one knee already shot, cleaned out multiple times, not much cartilage left.


I've been taking Turmeric Curcurin supplements, (you can get them anywhere, Walmart, Walgreen's, etc. off the shelf) . They're not expensive, natural, and medical studies show they seem to relieve joint stiffness and swelling due to both osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis.


You have to take them for a few weeks before they have any effect, as it needs to build up in your system, so you'd need to be taking them prior to your next trip.

 
mastertangler
06/10/2018 06:46AM
 
Granite has it right.......stay in shape and make it a lifestyle. Do something everyday.......I like his regiment, sounds good. Otherwise trips become a bit more like torture and not fun.


Leisure time roll up chair with a back rest is probably as good as it gets for a canoeing chair with a backrest. Camp time carries them, they roll up fairly small and are stable and supportive, nice!


I also paddle with a crazy creek canoe seat. It also has a backrest but is flexible and allows for torso rotation while still supporting your lumbar.


I am not a fan of weightlifter type belt supports due to what I have read. The argument is they are counterproductive and do not allow for the muscles to strengthen in areas where the belt is used because they are not needed. I have had some lumbar issues and have found that a daily routine of core exercises is key. The other oft neglected routine is stretching. Tight hamstrings can put a lot of pressure on lumbar discs.


The other really big deal is hydration. Drink tons of water.


I have some joint tightness as well. I have found when I give up on eating an acidic diet, including excess coffee, my joints thank me. It is surprising how much of what we eat has to do with it.
 
billconner
06/10/2018 07:31AM
 
I'm a bit more damn the torpedos full speed ahead. Can't do ibprofen because of blood thinners. No chair or back in canoe. Heading out on what I think is considered a tough backpack trip in a few weeks - 16 miles and +5000' in first two (three?) days. So what if my hips hurt? Wonderful being there.


No idea how long I can keep it up. I hope to mid 70s - 8-10 years. I'll see.



 
mastertangler
06/10/2018 08:51AM
 
Bob, Cliff is right. No frontpacking, very, very bad idea. You might get away with it for a while but the potential for a major crash and burn with severe consequences is greatly enhanced when you can't see where your feet are going. When King Solomon (book of proverbs) mentions watching where you walk you know it's important.


You have a couple of options. One is just do another trip. The other is do what I do and get a couple of Watershed duffels. Transfer some of the weight off your back to your arms. Not so bad then. Carrying two is best and get them equal weight to keep balance. You will also find them very agreeable for managing weight in the canoe as they are easily shifted around.


And of course the organizational aspect is superb. One duffel has all my cook gear.......another might contain all my clothing. Well constructed, completely waterproof and they carry superbly ( they don't hang low and bang your knees).
 
nctry
06/10/2018 03:02PM
 
I tried going in (the day you left my place Ken). I thought I would be able to help a friend who had an accident with a knife. Got permission from forest service and away I went. Got to moose River North about five pm. Got to Oyster Lake well after midnight. I used my spirit ll cause I didn't have a yoke for the solo boat in my garage. Just enough wind to make crossing Nina Moose a struggle ... Big time struggle. Found the Oyster river before it got too dark. But dark it got... It was kind of fun in the way I always loved to do stuff like that. Well, coming back after a short night didn't work for me. The gracious people I'd come to help had to drag me and portage for me out... Over a week has passed and I can't get my get up and go back.
So conditioning is big, health issues can screw up our plans at anytime. I may never get to go on a my type of trip again... But I plan to get out there somewhere when I can. I'll just have to be more smart and aware of what I can and can't do.
 
boonie
06/10/2018 07:22AM
 
I'm 67 and like many others, I find some conditioning helpful, as well as lightening the load, which makes packs smaller and easier to handle when loading and unloading at awkward portage landings, as well as easier to carry. Unlike many others, I don't take a chair, along with leaving many other traditional things behind, but then too much sitting is one of the bad things for my back (YMMV). I did take a butt pad last year though.


Last year was my first trip after the heart attack and I did not do as well portaging. In the past I have not avoided that. I plan to try to be in better shape, but not sure what I'll be able to do portaging.
 
DrBobDerrig
06/10/2018 08:33AM
 
This is a scary subject..m.y bride and I will both be 68 this year.... Mine is next month on Friday 13th......happens every few years.
I took way too big a Duluth pack a couple years ago trying to keep up with the youngers in our group. I was seriously hurting for weeks. Even though Cliff J says no I would rather have 2 lighter packs one in front and one in back rather than struggle with one heavy beast. If the portage gets dicey then I can come back for the front pack...
Canoe seat with backrest and those chairs are awesome.
It isn't supposed to be a death march anyway.


dr bob
 
bwcadan
06/09/2018 05:16PM
 
Base camping can extend the number of nights you can be in the BW. You may or may not be already doing that.



 
MHS67
06/09/2018 10:35PM
 
One thing that helped was using a canoe seat with a back rest. Made paddling all day easier and more comfortable. I don't portage as much as I used to and spend more time fishing. I usually wind up triple portaging as I still take the same amount of gear, but have 3 packs instead of 2. Makes each one lighter. As others have mentioned, staying in shape is real important.
 
yogi59weedr
06/09/2018 11:46PM
 
Captains chair. Never skimp
 
Bannock
06/10/2018 12:49AM
 
Yep - a chair is #1. I use a menards, $7 chair. Because they are chea p, they are light weight. Still, they are comfy. I have taken many a nap in one.
My toughest thing is getting upright out of the tent. Having something to help me stand is usefull. This can be a chair or a tree of something else close to the tent door to aid me in standing up.
Also, my solo trips go better if someone goes with me. Two people soloing together makes things easier, and puts my wife's mind at ease. ?
 
merlyn
06/09/2018 04:42PM
 
I made a solo trip, 4 days in May, and came to realize that at age 68, I'm not a kid anymore. I planned my trip with only two portages and planned to double carry so things were not bad physically... BUT... I was stiff and more tired than I expected at the end of the day. I was wondering if other "old campers" had some tips or tricks to pass on. I don't plan to quit BWCA trips until I die so some sage advice would always help. I will even start us out: bring a camp chair - old knees can only take so much hunkering.

Hope to hear a lot of good advice. Thanks,
Merlyn

PS: I thought of a sexy 25 year old to fetch and carry too. Wife said no.
 
bhouse46
06/09/2018 06:15PM
 
While a luxury or two is always appreciated lightening the load has helped. I use a Helinox sunset chair and have really appreciated the comfort. I value it enough it goes with me when backpacking, too.
Conditioning can not be minimized. Picking up some things at REI today their board advised 12 weeks of training before a backpacking trip. And learn some good stretches and loosen up in the evening. A walk down to the shoreline and doing some stretches can be a pleasant break and usually reduces stiffness.
 
mjmkjun
06/09/2018 06:17PM
 
Word: Ibuprofen.
Always sore as hell few hours after long portage. I am 68 too. I searched for the smallest profile weightlifters belt and wear on portages to avoid pulling a back muscle. No pulled or sprained muscles so far. I think it has merit. When tired, I get clumsy picking up those backpacks.
Happy travels.
 
GraniteCliffs
06/09/2018 08:03PM
 
Age beats us all in the end. BUT:
It is all about staying in good physical condition. Nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes things happen and staying fit is no longer possible. But most of the time simply making the decision to be fit at any age is the best answer.
I am 67 and work hard at being ready to go the several trips I take every year. Three days a week of hard cardio workouts, three days of lifting and two yoga classes a week. I follow that schedule pretty much year round but at this time of year I amp things up a bit by pushing harder and longer. I really think the yoga is beneficial.
One other thought I have is that when I solo I find myself going slower both paddling and portaging but spending more total time traveling each day. The tortoise and the hare theory I guess.
Like Neil says "Its better to burn out than to fade away.!"
 
GraniteCliffs
06/09/2018 08:19PM
 
So the heading of this thread is "Old folk camping."
The next thread to pop up is "Dead and Down!"
Yikes.
 
quark2222
06/09/2018 08:46PM
 
GraniteCliffs: "So the heading of this thread is "Old folk camping."
The next thread to pop up is "Dead and Down!"
Yikes."



Good catch on the "Dead and Down". Pretty funny. Dazed and Confused would have worked as well.


Tomster
 
pswith5
06/10/2018 09:45AM
 
I am only 56 and not embarrassed to admit; if I am sore or just tired i will triple portage if necessary. I try to leave my pride at home. After all I am on vacation!
 
butthead
06/10/2018 09:53AM
 
Only real problems I noticed last year on a 11 day group solo/true solo mixed trip in Quetico is the problem dealing with rocky portages. 66 year old, short rotund shape, short legs, and hyperopia, made the Q portages tough for me. On the plus side I sleep better and the low center of gravity allows comfortable use of my solo tents!


butthead
 
billconner
06/10/2018 03:04PM
 
I seem to recall the Voyageurs who could carry the most beaver pelts were the short and stocky ones.


I'm sure it will be a fleeting inconvenience to one or several people but I plan to drop dead in wilderness or literalky and hopefully just nit wake up some morning under cancas. (Canvas sounds so much better in this context than silnylon.)
 
BWPaddler
06/10/2018 05:28PM
 
I am more deliberate about where each foot is placed on a portage. Do not want any knee issues while out there. I also think getting in and out of tent gets harder and harder and I'm "only" 53! So - I see a day when a taller tent is in order, with less portaging since there will be more weight.


Then again, on my last trip (a very quick solo in May), I didn't even bring a stove or a lighter or any of my kitchen gear. Just a small amount of food I could eat by hand, and it was FINE. Maybe I will do more with less, lol.
 
missmolly
06/11/2018 08:49AM
 
If you're soloing at 68, you're tough as a tank.
 
Zulu
06/11/2018 09:50AM
 
I’ve been around the sun 61 times and I too find canoe trips and portaging much more difficult. Enthusiasm causes me to overdo it the first day and then I’m exhausted the whole next day. It could be beta-blockers, belly fat or being lazy and out of shape but I just except it and have thought of a remedy that seems to work.


First I wear a t-shirt from Branson, MO, Dollywood or something that says “Sexy Grandpa” or “I’m spending my kids inheritance”.


Then I sit at the portage with my gear unloaded sipping on a bottle of Ensure and wait. When I see young people coming toward me on the portage I spring into action. I begin by holding my breath until my face turns red. Then I pretend to check my pulse and breath hard. If it’s hot I’ve already wet my face and hair with lake water.
If the act is good people will stop and offer to take my packs across the portage for me. I always respond with “Thank you for the offer but No thanks. I’m OK. I’m just waiting for my Testosterone Booster to kick in”. When they insist on helping I may say “Are you sure you want to? I’ve got a liter of prune juice plus a CPAP and car battery in those packs”. They almost always agree and I follow them down the trail carringing only the canoe.
On the other end I thank them profusely and offer them a fun size Snickers bar and promise to pass on the kindness. I believe they get more out of the good deed than I do.


I’ve found I just need to except and adapt to the changes old age brings.

 
ozarkpaddler
06/11/2018 10:52AM
 
GraniteCliffs: "So the heading of this thread is "Old folk camping."
The next thread to pop up is "Dead and Down!"
Yikes."



Funny (LOL)!
 
ozarkpaddler
06/11/2018 10:53AM
 
Zulu: "I’ve been around the sun 61 times and I too find canoe trips and portaging much more difficult. Enthusiasm causes me to overdo it the first day and then I’m exhausted the whole next day. It could be beta-blockers, belly fat or being lazy and out of shape but I just except it and have thought of a remedy that seems to work.



First I wear a t-shirt from Branson, MO, Dollywood or something that says “Sexy Grandpa” or “I’m spending my kids inheritance”.



Then I sit at the portage with my gear unloaded sipping on a bottle of Ensure and wait. When I see young people coming toward me on the portage I spring into action. I begin by holding my breath until my face turns red. Then I pretend to check my pulse and breath hard. If it’s hot I’ve already wet my face and hair with lake water.
If the act is good people will stop and offer to take my packs across the portage for me. I always respond with “Thank you for the offer but No thanks. I’m OK. I’m just waiting for my Testosterone Booster to kick in”. When they insist on helping I may say “Are you sure you want to? I’ve got a liter of prune juice plus a CPAP and car battery in those packs”. They almost always agree and I follow them down the trail carringing only the canoe.
On the other end I thank them profusely and offer them a fun size Snickers bar and promise to pass on the kindness. I believe they get more out of the good deed than I do.



I’ve found I just need to except and adapt to the changes old age brings.
"



I just spit coffee all over laughing (LOL)
 
Spartan2
06/11/2018 12:56PM
 
Zulu, you're a hoot! :-)
 
GraniteCliffs
06/11/2018 12:56PM
 
Zulu! Great tactic! Might give it a shot this year!


 
A1t2o
06/11/2018 02:37PM
 
Daily physical activity goes a long ways. This means something you can do during the winter consistently too. Gym membership, exercise bike, treadmill are all good options. If you keep moving then you never have to start again and starting is always the hard part.


For in camp, think about what the hardest and most draining activities are for you and try to cut them down. If pumping water is draining then use a gravity filter or a bottle with a built in filter. If cutting wood is difficult then get a better saw. If hanging the bear bag is draining you then use a bear barrel and stash it. Work smarter, not harder.


Portages can be tough. Cut down on weight and consider triple portaging it. Portages are probably the hardest part but there isn't much you can do to make the terrain easier, just how you cross it.


The biggest thing would be recovery and that means sleeping. Hammock or nice sleeping pad, either way you need a good night's sleep. Get something weight efficient and warm. Whatever it takes to make yourself comfortable, do it. If you don't sleep well you won't feel well on the trip.
 
chessie
06/18/2018 06:09AM
 
I appreciate some of the comments re: staying in shape. However, some conditions persist regardless -- s/as arthritis, back issues, etc. Thus, I/we do what we can to keep pack weight down. On recent trip, 2 people with 3 packs, none over 40 #. The Nemo Cosmo pad has been the best for my bad back. Ibuprofen is essential. Learning what motions are the highest risk -- s/as bending AND twisting, then avoiding. This means I no longer carry the tandem canoe, which I always used to do … bummer, but it is risk management. We did not basecamp on recent trip, but did very short paddle days -- and accepting that we aren't going to cover the ground we did in past. We still saw amazing country. Acceptance of limitations is a big challenge, but with it comes more realistic behaviors. On a backpacking trip this past fall, I bought, and RELIED on lightweight (Black Diamond) trekking poles - they saved me! I moved slow, but still got from point A to point B. Some mornings started in tears, but all in all a great trip (Grand Canyon). As a rheumatologist told me: "do what you can, while you can." It may not be pretty, but still at it!
 
nctry
06/18/2018 06:34AM
 
chessie: "I appreciate some of the comments re: staying in shape. However, some conditions persist regardless -- s/as arthritis, back issues, etc. Thus, I/we do what we can to keep pack weight down. On recent trip, 2 people with 3 packs, none over 40 #. The Nemo Cosmo pad has been the best for my bad back. Ibuprofen is essential. Learning what motions are the highest risk -- s/as bending AND twisting, then avoiding. This means I no longer carry the tandem canoe, which I always used to do … bummer, but it is risk management. We did not basecamp on recent trip, but did very short paddle days -- and accepting that we aren't going to cover the ground we did in past. We still saw amazing country. Acceptance of limitations is a big challenge, but with it comes more realistic behaviors. On a backpacking trip this past fall, I bought, and RELIED on lightweight (Black Diamond) trekking poles - they saved me! I moved slow, but still got from point A to point B. Some mornings started in tears, but all in all a great trip (Grand Canyon). As a rheumatologist told me: "do what you can, while you can." It may not be pretty, but still at it! "





THIS was a great post! It really put an exclemation mark on how I feel and hear from others these days. Do what you can while you can. Until your in that phase of your life you really don't grasp it. Seeing people go much further in age doing this stuff doesn't mean you will be able to.
 
billconner
06/18/2018 06:46AM
 
Great post chessie! That's what I do. Heading out Sunday for a backpacking trek that I have no idea I'll complete whole route but it will be enjoyable.
 
yellowcanoe
06/18/2018 11:30AM
 
Just keep doing what you can. We can still sleep in a tent. We like our Helinox chairs. We don't count portages.
Slow and steady does still work. We are 75 and going on a ten day canoe trip soon.. Of course we have decided that when car camping we'd rather have an RV.
We love portageless big water trips of course.


Staying in shape is sometimes hard when you have to choose what joint needs replacing next. I know that I won't be going back to Temagami cause some of the ports are straight up over boulders that require a three foot step up.

Keep on canoeing. You don't know when your last trip will be. I just lost three canoe friends in six weeks.. All quite unexpected.