Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: New rules for next year?
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LuvMyBell |
Pinetree: "I am not asking for limiting radio,but there is zero reason what I experienced on Gabro,a radio basting wide open you could hear on the whole lake,like you were at a beach. I will admit that is rare and if Rangers caught them they would of been fined and better yet kicked out of the BWCA. I agree that loud music in the BW is not something I'd want to experience, but Pinetree's observation that had rangers come by, they would have kicked the offenders out of the BW. Would they? Serious question. I've just reread the official rules and regulations and don't see anything about noise, from radios, kids playing or any other kind. At a minimum, I would think that noise ordinances enacted by almost everywhere I have lived, or state parks I've visited, 10pm silence....would be in effect. Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced. |
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LuvMyBell |
Pinetree: "I am not asking for limiting radio,but there is zero reason what I experienced on Gabro,a radio basting wide open you could hear on the whole lake,like you were at a beach. I will admit that is rare and if Rangers caught them they would of been fined and better yet kicked out of the BWCA. I agree that loud music in the BW is not something I'd want to experience, but Pinetree's observation that had rangers come by, they would have kicked the offenders out of the BW. Would they? Serious question. I've just reread the official rules and regulations and don't see anything about noise, from radios, kids playing or any other kind. At a minimum, I would think that noise ordinances enacted by almost everywhere I have lived, or state parks I've visited, 10pm silence....would be in effect. Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced. |
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inspector13 |
LuvMyBell: "Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced." Sort of. The BWCAW is covered by the rules governing all Federal lands. The specific rule would be 261.4d (Disorderly conduct.) Obviously, it would be open to interpretation by the witnessing officer. |
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mutz |
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Pinetree |
Canoearoo: "schweady: "proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?" I think I asked for a BWCA bag last year and got one. I wonder if so many people didn't use them they slowed down giving them out. They use to write your permitnumber on them. |
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The Great Outdoors |
em8260: "Move the washing 50ft back? But its ok to build a mine....gotcha...delusional." Not to worry, by the time the USFS gets done with their new regulations the only thing left in the area will be a Mine!! |
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ghamer |
pswith5: " 1. Option instead of nalgene? Bota bag! :) 2. This is not a mining thread! 3. More enforcement! If this means my permit goes up a few bucks ; I am ok with that. Plus you can fine offenders for revenue. 4. The current video is outdated, I welcome a new one." Thanks pswith5... especially #2... plenty of those already :-) ! I still use a Nalgene for my water, but I would consider a Playpus if I needed to cut down on bulk/ weight. The only potential effect of a tighter plastic ban on us would be our squeeze Parkay bottle. We switched over to taking a 2 gal zip lock for garbage... it really cuts down on the odors. Even on our 12-day trip this May/ June with lots of warm weather. The last couple years the ranger gave us a card that says we don't have to watch the video a second time after seeing it once earlier in the year. Good discussion folks! |
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billconner |
We still packed out a cans, paper, etc. left by others. No-no other tp. |
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ghamer |
She also said we can look forward to a new and updated video. Has anyone else heard anything about this? |
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boonie |
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Savage Voyageur |
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MN_Lindsey |
LOL. Say "overly cautious much"? |
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gsfisher13 |
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dew042 |
gsfisher13: "The outfitter we use in Ely mentioned there have been many more reported incidents of ignorant people washing dishes and disposing of leftover food in the lakes. I'm guessing they will update the rules and video and force hopefully everyone to watch it again. I'd rather not have my lake water tasting like Dawn or Ivory." There's a pretty saucy USFS comment from this thread that gave me a chuckle, I bet its related: http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1097142&forumID=16&confID=1 MooseTrack: " |
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shock |
i remember stopping at the old courthouse in Duluth and going up to the 4th floor ?? grab our permit and we were gone :) |
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riverrunner |
Why punish all that obey with over regulations. |
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HowardSprague |
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Spartan2 |
:-) Once they have a new one, I'll have to look it up just for old times' sake! |
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proepro |
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schweady |
proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?" Leave No Trace video |
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Pinetree |
Your radio should never be heard by another party. |
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HowardSprague |
nctry: "yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. " YES! It bugs me at home, others in the household use up the dishwashing liquid - and even Softsoap for handwashing - so quickly. A few drops will take care of a sinkful of dishes, and hand soap doesn't have to cover the whole palm of the hand....I protest at home to no avail. On my own, a bottle of Dawn would last me months, now with me + wife + daughter + mother in law, it barely lasts a couple of weeks. The numbers don't work out! |
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drnatus |
Personally I like the reminders and watch the video, but I want to learn, I want to LNT. Some people just don't care. How about no alcohol and no music other than from headphones? IMHO, those 2 rules would weed out the majority of people who aren't interested in LNT. (not that everyone who drinks is a problem, but clearly alcohol is a major risk for bad behavior.) |
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A1t2o |
drnatus: "How about no alcohol and no music other than from headphones? IMHO, those 2 rules would weed out the majority of people who aren't interested in LNT. (not that everyone who drinks is a problem, but clearly alcohol is a major risk for bad behavior.)" More like weed out a majority of people. I think that both of those rules would be going a bit far. Sure some people head in, get drunk and don't respect the rules, but I think that people that are not going to respect the rules are going to do so regardless of if they are drinking. Plus there are a lot of people who DO respect and follow the rules that enjoy a drink or two in the evening looking at the view, fire, or stars. Is playing music or a video on speaker with your phone really a problem? I get amplified with an external speaker might be an issue, but limiting to headphones only is pretty ridiculous. Lets not try to control every little thing people do just because it could be abused or disrespectful, that's similar to banning axes because people could chop live trees. Getting carried away is just a good way to have all of your arguments ignored. |
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drnatus |
A1t2o: "More like weed out a majority of people." Exactly.... at least those who aren't willing to abide by LNT principles. I have zero problem with people who want to have a drink or two, it is just hard to make a ruling that would differentiate between those and those who go to party. We just had a great trip tainted by loud music the last night. Didn't ruin our trip, just disappointing. Would be interested in hearing your ideas as to how to "New rules" would make the bwca better. |
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Pinetree |
mutz: "Can’t imagine anyone being kicked out because of noise without a warning first, a ticket on the second incident. As a law enforcement officer we went to many loud noise complaints always gave a warning the first time, Subsequent complaints would normally mean tickets issued. " I think it would depend on the the situation and intent,if the radio was blasting like a beer drinking beach party I think they should because of the location(BWCA) the people would should of known better and do but just don't care. If someone was blasting a radio inside a resturant or neighborhood at 3 am a situation they should know better and especially if people effected ask them to turn it down. I know they have ticketed and kicked out people being obnoxious and using swear language at other canoe people as they passed. As you know I think the attitude of the people and real intent would be a deciding factor many times. |
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em8260 |
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ducks |
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hobbydog |
riverrunner: "People who are slobs are slobs not matter what the rules say,I agree, the regs mentioned are very hard to enforce and those that wash in the lake or break them now will not change their habits. The way to change it is to really focus on the outfitters that cater to first time users. Once habits are formed, no changes to the law or the video will alter bad habits. |
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Pinetree |
Thus inviting bear visits and it looks like heck. I do and will say I think people in general are much better than years ago. I will also mention certain areas of the BWCA get a different clientele and there is a big difference of blatant ignorance and some of it is on purpose at a few sites. |
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mschi772 |
em8260: "Move the washing 50ft back? But its ok to build a mine....gotcha...delusional." Please understand that the people deciding what the cathole/gray water rules for camp sites and the people deciding if mining is allowed are VERY different people. Comments like this are helpful to neither the LNT rules nor the mining discussion. I understand how frustrating it can be, but flippant remarks won't solve anything. I get wanting to vent--I really do. However, and I can only speak for myself here, please try to be thoughtful, thorough, and constructive if you're going to weigh in on the subject as I believe that if everyone, on both sides of the issue, did their best in this regard, there would be more hope of settling the issue sooner and more satisfactorily. |
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tumblehome |
The USFS motto is "Caring for the land, serving the people". But why should anyone care about soap in the water when the worlds largest copper mine is on the other side of camp? Help me understand. Help... Tom |
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andym |
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nctry |
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. " Depending what I'm cooking. I have meals I do that with but washing dishes is an important task for many. One thing I practice at home is soap amounts that cut whatever I'm washing. Using a big squirt for a small amount of water is kind of part of the problem too. There are extremes... As far as the mine... We control what we can and hopefully the mine will do it's part... Maybe. |
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timatkn |
Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years! Yea I don’t know what my issue is but I have never gotten out of the video either :) Whether picking up at the outfitter or at the Forest service always watch the video. T |
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yogi59weedr |
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jhb8426 |
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Canoearoo |
timatkn: "Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years! Just bring some kids with you on a busy permit day. They want you out fast on those days. We haven't seen a video in 3 years. They tell the kids if they can answer all the questions on the back of the permit perfectly without help they can skip the video. They get them right every time. |
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shock |
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. "+1 |
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annlikesbass2 |
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annlikesbass2 |
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Pinetree |
andym: "I was wondering if they might want to cut down on not generally reused plastic bottles such as soda and beer. Interestingly, some ultralight campers use soda bottles to carry fuel for alcohol stoves. It works and they are very light. But I can imagine a lot get left behind." I use a soda pop plastic bottle for my drinking bottle. Nice and ligtweight and I have a spare empty one in my pack if needed. |
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andym |
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mjmkjun |
riverrunner: "People who are slobs are slobs not matter what the rules say, Exactly my thoughts on the matter. "Slobs" are lazy types. Won't change that with 'new and improved' regulations. It will fall on deaf ears just like old regulations. If ya keep pushing the perimeter further away from campsites you'll have the inexperienced ones turned around in the woods. More S&R on the horizon. |
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pswith5 |
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Canoearoo |
schweady: "proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?" Just watch the video. Anyone notice it said hang your food 12 feet high and 6 feet from the tree but the example was no where close to 6 feet from the tree? And they don't give out those bwca garbage bags anymore. |
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timatkn |
Canoearoo: "timatkn: "Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years! I did that! :) went to the FS center in Ely 2015, made the family watch the video and then quizzed the kids (5 and 8) afterwards...not a big deal, good education just surprised so many people get out of it. In 2015 Maverick and I picked up a permit entry from Canada at VNO and I swear Lynn had us watch the video...not complaining once again I think consistent enforcement is key to LNT education, but it doesn’t seem like they do that. Maybe they should focus on that before changing the rules? T |
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aruthenb |
I was upset on Agnes Lake with campsites that had garbage in fire pits and the portages out of EP16 which were strewn with garbage. Every portage had a short trail that led to an area everyone used as a bathroom with toliet paper everywhere and nothing buried, it was very disheartening. It was nice to be further north and over on EP19 earlier in our trip where we saw none of this. |
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ozarkpaddler |
aruthenb: " Every portage had a short trail that led to an area everyone used as a bathroom with toliet paper everywhere and nothing buried, it was very disheartening. " I know I'm taking the thread in a mite different direction, but GOOD GRIEF when did people start thinking we all want to see their waste? I've noticed it worsening on the rivers here in the Ozarks AND up north. That's something that used to be rare, but it seems almost like our culture no longer cares about the next person walking past? It's one of my pet peeves and I wish there was a damn large fine for doing so! |
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heavylunch |
Pinetree: "andym: "I was wondering if they might want to cut down on not generally reused plastic bottles such as soda and beer. Interestingly, some ultralight campers use soda bottles to carry fuel for alcohol stoves. It works and they are very light. But I can imagine a lot get left behind." I have nalgene bottles but for the last few years I have switched to just old plastic water bottles and pop bottles too. Lighter, cheaper, and just more convenient in general. I would be bummed to have to go back to my nalgenes honestly. |
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pswith5 |
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bottomtothetap |
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Savage Voyageur |
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. " Might work for a solo trip. Our trips have between 6-8 guys. Dish soap is a necessity for more reasons than one. |
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mjmkjun |
bottomtothetap: "Will the new video still show people gently patting their poop into the ground with their fingers as is shown in the current video at 4:50?" LOL! I've watched the video several times and I have to admit that I had not given much attention to that segment till this past trip out of Sawbill. Why in the world would they encourage people to do that? I could understand a shoe but using one's hand is just plain gross. |
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yogi59weedr |
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Pinetree |
yogi59weedr: "Anyone heard any scuttlebutt about how the lottery will be replaced? I was having a beer in a guides garage couple weeks ago in Ely, and he had not heard anything about the lottery being replaced." lottery |
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emptynest56 |
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Savage Voyageur |
Pinetree: "yogi59weedr: "Anyone heard any scuttlebutt about how the lottery will be replaced? I was having a beer in a guides garage couple weeks ago in Ely, and he had not heard anything about the lottery being replaced." I can see the website crashing the minute they open the site. We shall see... |
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A1t2o |
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Soledad |
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Pinetree |
Soledad: "Hope they can hire some more rangers to enforce the laws." The National forest budgets outside of firefighting are probably the lowest in 50 years. I know the 1960's they had more than double the staff they now have in Superior national forest. |
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VoyageurNorth |
" I did that! :) went to the FS center in Ely 2015, made the family watch the video and then quizzed the kids (5 and 8) afterwards...not a big deal, good education just surprised so many people get out of it. In 2015 Maverick and I picked up a permit entry from Canada at VNO and I swear Lynn had us watch the video...not complaining once again I think consistent enforcement is key to LNT education, but it doesn’t seem like they do that. Maybe they should focus on that before changing the rules? T" That made me laugh! I think I have done that a couple times! :-) The rules are almost the same. But since it was a "from Canada" permit, it meant that you were camping in the BWCA for the end of your trip, so.............. The Quetico used to have us go over the rules & regulations with people & then issue those people a card designating that so they could get through the Ranger Station quicker & it was good for 2 years. We got a Quetico book with flip over pages and if you ever looked at it, it could almost be a BWCA reg book. I must admit, I am a bit of a "stickler" for watching the video. After all, it is in my cooperator agreement that I make sure people do and if you haven't seen it in two years, then I make you do it again. |