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02/08/2019 04:28PM |
Dogs were banned from the Island long ago. The dog that brought the canine parvovirus was brought there illegally by people from Chicago in the early 80s. Now emotional support animals are allowed legally. I wonder how people would feel if dogs were banned from the b-dub?Yes wolf will kill each other. They will raid a den and kill all of the pups. They are territorial animals and will kill each other for power.
I have been going to the Island for almost 50 years and I highly recommend it to everyone. It is a special place!!!
JIM P.
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09/29/2018 07:48PM |
Moosepatrol: "Well …… like I said this morning everything "these people" stick there fingers in goes bad. Did any of these so called experts think this out? Just what we need another government run program. "
Yes, I believe they did "think this out" over several years with input from both "experts" and non-expert interested parties. It might be premature to determine if this "goes bad".
The Moose-Wolf interaction on Isle Royale has been under study for the past 60 years. The effects of this wolf introduction will almost assuredly be studied for the next 60 years. Give it a few years and see how it turns out.
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09/29/2018 08:05PM |
KarlBAndersen1: ""Without hunting pressure from wolves, the moose population on the island tripled over the past decade to around 1,500 animals."
A couple quota hunting seasons would knock those numbers down quickly and MAKE money.
Not cost money.
The whole idea is to KILL the excess moose. Win - win."
Exactly!
Just like the CWD in Wisconsin and SE Minnesota. Instead of spending money to decimate deer herds that "may" have CWD with sharpshooters, provide an out of season management hunt.
Make money, not cost money.
(Great quote Karl)
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02/10/2019 05:29AM |
I don't blame the wolves for leaving. Wolves and people are not meant to mix.
I would still like to visit someday...someone change my mind?
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09/28/2018 03:39PM |
Wolves moved to Isle Royale
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10/01/2018 04:27PM |
OCDave: "K52: "...
... Natural selection decided that the wolves couldn't make it in that ecosystem...
..."
My understanding is the demise of the IRNP wolves was attributed Canine Parvovirus introduced in the 1980 when a park visitor brought their family dog onto the island. Part of the rationale for human involvement in wolf restoration is the human involvement in their near extinction from the island."
Correct,I do wonder how much lack of genetic difference existed also. Which is also showing in moose to some extent.
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09/29/2018 07:30AM |
A couple quota hunting seasons would knock those numbers down quickly and MAKE money.
Not cost money.
The whole idea is to KILL the excess moose. Win - win.
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09/29/2018 07:45AM |
It seems everything the government gets involved goes bad. Look at Washington. Hell the government can't even make the do not call list work.
Maybe let the Indians hunt there also. The Indians will be exercising there treaty rights and hunting moose in Minnesota again this year.
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02/06/2019 03:11PM |
muddyfeet: "An update: one wolf had enough and went home.
Wolf leaves island.
Perhaps BeaV loaned it his ice paddle. "
Be interesting to know if the two residents of the Island join up with the newcomers or reject them?
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02/11/2019 02:19PM |
I am always amazed like they have collared doe deer by Ely,they travel up toward Orr and they turn around and come home. Animals have been doing it forever. Bear are tagged by Grand rapids,travel down to Longville to eat acorns than travel north again.
Birds returning to the same area each year after going 1000 of miles.
Yet us great human hunters and anglers get mixed up including I,if we wander off trail a few feet. Never got lost going to latrine yet tho in the BWCA or Quetico-YET.
MY brother has few few wolves on his land south of Brainerd and every few weeks it seems like they return walking the same paths checking things out. I think they are a creature of habit also. Some winters about 100 yards away there is like 20 deer yarding. They don't even pay attention and stay on coarse.
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09/29/2018 06:30AM |
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09/29/2018 06:52AM |
We already have CWD in other parts of the state. If they don't seriously thin the herd up here it will show up and hunters will be reluctant to hunt the deer.
Never heard of "prions" in vet school back in the early 70's. Not a virus and not a bacteria but instead a protein that can wreak such havoc. We need a lot more research into this...especially possible transmission to humans
dr bob
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10/01/2018 07:55AM |
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10/01/2018 07:24AM |
http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/overview/overview/at_a_glance.html
This was her internship for the summer. Pretty cool! (great excuse for her family to go there every month too)
That site also says moose came in the early 1900's. It's debated how they arrived but she and others who are working on the study think they were brought by hunters, since Moose don't like to walk on ice, especially for more than a few yards. It's probable that early accounts of "moose" on IR before then were mistaking a caribou for a moose. Yes, moose can swim, but the 15 mile swim is pretty far. The cultural consensus has been that they were brought by hunters. Can't really prove or disprove at this point, and doesn't really matter, but interesting to speculate.
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09/29/2018 01:09AM |
dr bob
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09/30/2018 08:30AM |
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09/30/2018 03:24PM |
OCDave: "Moosepatrol: "Well …… like I said this morning everything "these people" stick there fingers in goes bad. Did any of these so called experts think this out? Just what we need another government run program. "
Yes, I believe they did "think this out" over several years with input from both "experts" and non-expert interested parties. It might be premature to determine if this "goes bad".
The Moose-Wolf interaction on Isle Royale has been under study for the past 60 years. The effects of this wolf introduction will almost assuredly be studied for the next 60 years. Give it a few years and see how it turns out.
"
I am not against the relocation, but I do think it is healthy to note that relocating wolves was not 100% supported by wildlife researchers. No one is angry or protesting but it seems like I have seen a few posts on here that seem to give the impression this was a slam dunk. It was a tough decision which many argued against and technically goes against the research that was done over the last 60 years that advocated a strictly hands off role by humans and let nature takes it course for pure study. The land bridge has formed multiple times recently and wolves have left the island rather than than come on to it.
Also a reminder that neither wolves nor moose were present on the island at one time in the not so distant past. There was room to argue that we should leave it alone and see what happens. That ship has sailed I know, but just sayin...
T
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09/30/2018 08:44AM |
If you wanted to see moose in a natural ecosystem you should have been in my back yard ten years ago, northern Minnesota. Northern Minnesota moose are at half the numbers they were a few years ago. Because of the wolf killing them. According to the research wolves are killing the calves at a rate the will result in no Moose in Minnesota in years to come. The moose also have to deal with ticks and brain disease. The researches have spent many millions studying this and still have not given us an answer on how to control this. We did not get what we paid for. Anyone that has spent their life in the Minnesota woods would have told the what was killing our moose for free. All anyone had to do was ask someone.
Don't forget humans are also animals and part of the natural ecosystem. What is the difference if a person hunts moose to feed his family from a wolf killing moose? Other then that we will limit the numbers so both can survive.
I enjoy both moose and wolves however I seldom see moose in my back yard anymore. The wolves are now killing our pets.
Hell the people of Minneapolis and Chicago can't even keep people from shooting each other. We have hundreds of homeless Indians living in Minneapolis. Maybe we should help them first, instead of spending money on programs like this.
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02/07/2019 10:41AM |
Captn Tony: "Moosepatrol: "Well …… like I said this morning everything "these people" stick there fingers in goes bad. Did any of these so called experts think this out? Just what we need another government run program. "
While I agree that government does some dumb things, I disagree about everything they stick their fingers in is bad. Like establishing state and national parks, public schools, public roads, etc. In Iowa we now have deer, turkey, otter, bobcats, eagles a few of the wildlife species that we didn't have when I was young!"
+1
I'm fairly positive it was thought out. To use the phrase "everything these people...." is stereotyping in a very big way. It's possible that this phrase was not thought out very well.
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10/01/2018 10:45AM |
TomT: "It worked pretty good in Yellowstone. Hunting to replace predators is not part of a natural ecosystem. Why does it have to be about making profits? I'd personally love the chance to go there and see wolves and moose in a "natural" ecosystem. There's very few places left like this. "
There's nothing natural about that ecosystem you'd like to see. You want to see an ecosystem that been artificially created by man that include the animals you want and value above others. Kind of like a big zoo surrounded by water. Natural selection decided that the wolves couldn't make it in that ecosystem. Moose numbers would have been limited in the future by lack of food or disease. The "natural ecosystem" that you speak of is always a series of boom and bust populations.
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09/30/2018 02:00PM |
Whether or not they should allow a hunt (and maybe they should) isn't what's up for discussion here - the fact is they're reintroducing wolves, and why would somebody oppose that? Let's root for a successful establishment. Maybe you can all successfully lobby for a hunt as well - it's not either/or.
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02/07/2019 08:49AM |
Moosepatrol: "Well …… like I said this morning everything "these people" stick there fingers in goes bad. Did any of these so called experts think this out? Just what we need another government run program. "
While I agree that government does some dumb things, I disagree about everything they stick their fingers in is bad. Like establishing state and national parks, public schools, public roads, etc. In Iowa we now have deer, turkey, otter, bobcats, eagles a few of the wildlife species that we didn't have when I was young!
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09/30/2018 06:27PM |
Eventually the moose #'s will drop once there is insufficient vegetation, regardless of how many wolves there are (or aren't) on IR. The question is whether the island will suffer by the moose continuing to eat, and nobody knows the answer.
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09/30/2018 06:43PM |
dex8425: "Remember that neither wolves nor moose were part of the long term sustainable ecosystem on IR-caribou and lynx. Moose were introduced by hunters in 1909. Wolves came in the 40's, following the moose.
Eventually the moose #'s will drop once there is insufficient vegetation, regardless of how many wolves there are (or aren't) on IR. The question is whether the island will suffer by the moose continuing to eat, and nobody knows the answer. "
There is Zero evidence Moose were introduced by hunters or anyone else. Evidence is that by 1905 Moose were already present for awhile at least and I believe there was some overlap of Caribou and Moose present at the same time.
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10/01/2018 08:12AM |
ellahallely: "From people I have talked to over the years, I also was left with the impression the moose were put on the island to hunt. However, this was always hearsay from locals of the shore."
Moose genetics
Yes-the more a person looks more variability on how? Yes there is evidence from Moose being stocked also? You wonder tho if it is Minnesota Moose and stocked there is no early records of such a huge project,
You wonder and maybe you will never know.
Very interesting genetic study. But earlier studies in the 1930's should bear weight and actual suppose evidence earlier very interesting.
I know when you get snow of substantial depth on ice Moose in the BWCA use lake travel a lot. It usually isn't slippery.
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02/06/2019 05:25PM |
KarlBAndersen1: "mastertangler: "Yep, I dont see a whole lot of downside to bringing wolves back onto the island. Will they decide to relocate to the mainland during a hard freeze?
"
Yes."
Lol
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02/11/2019 03:42PM |
hooky: "Bushman: "I live in Michigan and have never been to IR. I recently had a notion to visit and after some introductory research it sounds like it has become a crowded theme park.
I don't blame the wolves for leaving. Wolves and people are not meant to mix.
I would still like to visit someday...someone change my mind?"
It's the least visited park in the lower 48. Once you get away from Rock Harbor or Windigo where the boats drop visitors, it's possible to go days without seeing anyone on the trails. The nature of the camping regulations mean you may seem people at the end of the day, but even then it's far from crowded. I've always seen more people on my trips to the BWCA than my trip to Isle Royale.
I'm not sure where you did your introductory research, but that's far from the case."
Thank you for the info. I watched a bunch of youtube videos and just some basic research and from what I could tell it seemed crowded so I put it on the back burner. I still want to go and much more now after reading some of these comments. Not sure if i'll make it this year with the other things I have planned but it's on the bucket list and very doable for a guy who lives in Michigan!
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09/28/2018 11:27PM |
mastertangler: "Kinda neat. Hopefully it works out. How long did the wolves interact with people before being transported? You certainly wouldn't want wolves which are habituated to people. I assume they have already considered that.
As per the moose decimating the islands plant life however I am somewhat skeptical. I did quite a bit of hiking and spent some 20 plus days while going around the island via water taxi a few summers ago. What I distinctly remember was just how lush the island was. "
The article says the moose population is a threat to vegetation, not decimating. Big difference.
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09/29/2018 10:32AM |
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09/30/2018 11:19PM |
Only a few NP's allow it to begin with.
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09/30/2018 11:24PM |
T
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10/01/2018 10:05AM |
ellahallely: "From people I have talked to over the years, I also was left with the impression the moose were put on the island to hunt. However, this was always hearsay from locals of the shore."
Historical documents suggest that moose were brought to the island, most likely as a food source for commercial fishermen.
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09/28/2018 04:18PM |
As per the moose decimating the islands plant life however I am somewhat skeptical. I did quite a bit of hiking and spent some 20 plus days while going around the island via water taxi a few summers ago. What I distinctly remember was just how lush the island was.
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09/28/2018 07:33PM |
mastertangler: "How long did the wolves interact with people before being transported? You certainly wouldn't want wolves which are habituated to people. I assume they have already considered that. "
The wolves were captured Wednesday, so there has been minimal human interaction.
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09/29/2018 06:24PM |
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09/28/2018 11:29PM |
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09/28/2018 11:48PM |
mastertangler: "Kinda neat. Hopefully it works out. How long did the wolves interact with people before being transported? You certainly wouldn't want wolves which are habituated to people. I assume they have already considered that.
As per the moose decimating the islands plant life however I am somewhat skeptical. I did quite a bit of hiking and spent some 20 plus days while going around the island via water taxi a few summers ago. What I distinctly remember was just how lush the island was. "
It's the native balsam fir that's specifically at risk and then that rolls downhill to a long term effect on others due to grasses taking over and breaking up the woods.
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10/01/2018 02:25PM |
K52: "TomT: "It worked pretty good
in Yellowstone. Hunting to replace predators is not part of a natural ecosystem. Why does it have to be about making profits? I'd personally love the chance to go there and see wolves and moose in a "natural" ecosystem. There's very few places left like this.
"
There's nothing natural about that ecosystem you'd like to see. You want to see an ecosystem that been artificially created by man that include the animals you want and value above others. Kind of like a big zoo surrounded by water. Natural selection decided that the wolves couldn't make it in that ecosystem. Moose numbers would have been limited in the future by lack of food or disease. The "natural ecosystem" that you speak of is always a series of boom and bust populations."
I seen that quite frequently in Quetico where they break thru the ice and you find them early open water season.
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09/29/2018 10:28AM |
We climbed a tree by a pond and 5 different moose came within 10 feet of our tree. They are ravenous! They eat even more than me!
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10/01/2018 03:56PM |
K52: "...
... Natural selection decided that the wolves couldn't make it in that ecosystem...
..."
My understanding is the demise of the IRNP wolves was attributed Canine Parvovirus introduced in the 1980 when a park visitor brought their family dog onto the island. Part of the rationale for human involvement in wolf restoration is the human involvement in their near extinction from the island.
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09/29/2018 12:38PM |
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09/29/2018 01:36PM |
DrBobDg: "We have a huge population of deer in my area in NE Wi near green bay. I live on 40 acres... Very easy to see the extensive browse line In the woods. I planted 2 nice trees last fall and didn't think of putting a tree guard around them. Stupid me.
dr bob"
Lot of people in my area do what is bud capping trees in the fall with staples and paper on the terminal bud.
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09/29/2018 03:36PM |
hooky: "mastertangler: "Kinda neat. Hopefully it works out. How long did the wolves interact with people before being transported? You certainly wouldn't want wolves which are habituated to people. I assume they have already considered that.
As per the moose decimating the islands plant life however I am somewhat skeptical. I did quite a bit of hiking and spent some 20 plus days while going around the island via water taxi a few summers ago. What I distinctly remember was just how lush the island was. "
It's the native balsam fir that's specifically at risk and then that rolls downhill to a long term effect on others due to grasses taking over and breaking up the woods."
OK.......makes sense. Is that their preferred munch? Hopefully the wolves will thin them out a bit. But how many moose can a little pack eat? Probably not enough to make much of a dent for the foreseeable future. They are fairly thick over there. They should probably still set up a public hunt IMO. Thin the herd and raise much needed funds all in one swoop.
One thing I do know........change is the only sure thing in life and the flora and fauna will adapt. Here in Florida we have a vast array of undesirable invasive species. From Brazilian pepper trees to Oscars and pythons. For a little while we had a Nile Croc on the loose near homestead but they are fairly certain they killed it.........the thought of those giants getting established would be absolutely terrifying.
life finds a way
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02/11/2019 02:27PM |
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02/11/2019 02:38PM |
Bushman: "I live in Michigan and have never been to IR. I recently had a notion to visit and after some introductory research it sounds like it has become a crowded theme park.
I don't blame the wolves for leaving. Wolves and people are not meant to mix.
I would still like to visit someday...someone change my mind?"
It's the least visited park in the lower 48. Once you get away from Rock Harbor or Windigo where the boats drop visitors, it's possible to go days without seeing anyone on the trails. The nature of the camping regulations mean you may seem people at the end of the day, but even then it's far from crowded. I've always seen more people on my trips to the BWCA than my trip to Isle Royale.
I'm not sure where you did your introductory research, but that's far from the case.
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02/11/2019 02:53PM |
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09/29/2018 05:28PM |
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02/11/2019 08:02AM |
Bushman: "I live in Michigan and have never been to IR. I recently had a notion to visit and after some introductory research it sounds like it has become a crowded theme park.
I don't blame the wolves for leaving. Wolves and people are not meant to mix.
I would still like to visit someday...someone change my mind?"
We've been 2X....last time probaby around 2010.
It is hardly a theme park. There is a very little development at either end of the island. Takes all of 1 minute of walking to get away from it and into the wilderness.
It's a gorgeous area, and as far as I know, all campsites are still first come first serve, which we love, as it gives options for making changes to your trip on the fly. I highly recommend AGAINST hiking the greenstone from one end to the other, as most of that is in the woods and you won't see much. The west side Minong area has a spectacular trail loop, but very challenging. Most other areas on the west are similar to the BW in appearance.
The Eastern side on the whole is prettier and more 'majestic', with more interesting features. Lane Cove has to be the most spectacular site I've ever camped in my life.
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02/10/2019 10:02AM |
Bushman: "I live in Michigan and have never been to IR. I recently had a notion to visit and after some introductory research it sounds like it has become a crowded theme park.
I don't blame the wolves for leaving. Wolves and people are not meant to mix.
I would still like to visit someday...someone change my mind?"
Go early or late in the season if you want to avoid people. Windigo, Rock Harbor and McCargoe Cove are the busier spots. many people base camp, start, end there trips from those spots.
If possible I would take the ferry from Grand Portage to far end of the Island and hike to Windigo in Washington Harbor. I enjoy the from the view of the Island from the boat. I think the ferry from Copper Harbor only picks up and drops off at Rock Harbor. I could be wrong I have not taken the ferry for a few years. Rock Harbor has shuttle boats for rides, they are expensive.
Check out the Isle Royale forum online.
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02/09/2019 08:39PM |
Great points ellahalley!
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02/10/2019 09:24AM |
ellahallely: "
I have been going to the Island for almost 50 years and I highly recommend it to everyone. It is a special place!!!
Jim,
Do you fly, boat there or both?
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02/10/2019 09:33AM |
My first trip in the early 70s I saw 2 wolves and more then a dozen moose. I was in my early teens. Hiked end to end and only saw one person in between. A park ranger. The trip was in late May and the Island wasn't as popular back then. It was at a time when I hardly ever saw wolf in Minnesota. To say the least I have been hooked ever since. JIM P.
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02/09/2019 06:51PM |
dr bob
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02/09/2019 07:43PM |
ellahallely: "I have been going to the Island for almost 50 years and I highly recommend it to everyone. It is a special place!!!
JIM P."
Sounds like a special place.
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02/08/2019 12:15PM |
Much of this would of never happened if dog virus wouldn't got onto the Island. Probably dogs should of never been allowed on the Island.
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02/08/2019 06:53AM |
Looks to me like Mastertangler and Moosepatrol has foresight that many people lack today.
How did the bwca permits go? Minnesota DNR ends up killing moose in their research as to find out why the moose are dying. People I know have always thought the wolf played a part in the decline of moose in Minnesota.
One could argue this worked out good, however a few months in we already have one wolf that left. I wonder if people left the island in the winter and quit follow them if the wolves would have stayed.
The wolves are also tracked with aircraft and may contribute to them leaving.Wolves are very smart animals and know that humans are their number one threat.
Even with global warming that ice bridge from the island seems more frequent then in the past. JIM P.
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09/30/2018 04:40PM |
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02/07/2019 10:23AM |
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02/06/2019 03:00PM |
Wolf leaves island.
Perhaps BeaV loaned it his ice paddle.
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02/06/2019 05:22PM |
mastertangler: "Yep, I dont see a whole lot of downside to bringing wolves back onto the island. Will they decide to relocate to the mainland during a hard freeze?
"
Yes.
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10/01/2018 10:34AM |
Don't know if moose like ice but do go on it. The picture is of a moose that I found around 1980 that went through the ice on a creek in the Perent Lake area. Went back a couple weeks later and someone had cut the head off. I had only told a couple of people about my find. I have also seen several moose in the spring that had drowned from falling through thin ice. Found one a couple of years ago in Lewis Narrows on Basswood Lake.JIM
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09/28/2018 04:19PM |
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09/28/2018 05:04PM |
dr bob
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09/30/2018 02:27AM |
The same hypocrites that claim 2,000 wolves didn’t reduce the MN moose population now say that 20 wolves will. I’m not a wolf hater but this project reeks of fraud, waste, and abuse.
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10/02/2018 10:04AM |
http://www.mtu.edu/news/stories/2013/march/isle-royale-wolves-fall-prey-inbreeding-problems.html
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09/30/2018 08:29PM |
Pinetree: "dex8425: "Remember that neither wolves nor moose were part of the long term sustainable ecosystem on IR-caribou and lynx. Moose were introduced by hunters in 1909. Wolves came in the 40's, following the moose.
Eventually the moose #'s will drop once there is insufficient vegetation, regardless of how many wolves there are (or aren't) on IR. The question is whether the island will suffer by the moose continuing to eat, and nobody knows the answer. "
There is Zero evidence Moose were introduced by hunters or anyone else. Evidence is that by 1905 Moose were already present for awhile at least and I believe there was some overlap of Caribou and Moose present at the same time. "
Where did you find moose were present in the early 1900’s? Not being argumentative more curious to learn. Searching tonight I couldn’t find a date or timeline for moose arrival and I would like to know the date. The only thing I found was from MSU that states if you visited Isle Royale in the early 1900’s it would be totally different than today, no wolves or moose, there was a herd of caribou, lynx, Fox, and coyotes. All of those species were displaced by wolves and moose.
Wolves crossed the ice bridge sometime in the 40’s, another one came over in ‘97 and revitalized the genetic strain—-until then all wolves were related to the original 2 females that crossed in the 40’s. A pair of wolves crossed the ice bridge in 2015, but they left. Anyone have more info on wolf crossings? besides wolves leaving that was all I could find on wolves crossing the ice bridges. Really amazing the wolves lasted this long with so little genetic diversity.
The more I research this the more I think they should of left it alone to see what happens, but I get the other side of the argument of bringing wolves to recreate the predator prey balance. It was just such a perfect untouched by humans research opportunity until now.
T
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09/30/2018 09:24PM |
This kind of shows much the same time table but earlier
J.
Abner Sherman, of Dearborn, Michigan, states in a recent communication that when he
visited Isle Royale in 1880. moose were very scarce.Sometime prior to 1880 he had visited
the island and had seen four or five moose out on the ice. In former years moose aparently
crossed over from the mainland at intervals, but hunting was probably at that time sufficient to prevent the moose from becoming numerous or gaining a foothold.
Murie
It bugs me that I can't find the other site but a person keeps looking and you see estimates from like the 1980 up to 1915. All do talk about crossing the ice.
Murie I know from studies on Elk etc. is usually pretty accurate.
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09/30/2018 02:33PM |
Sometimes predators multiply beyond the environments ability to sustain them and there is a hard crash of the population. Likewise prey species may have a hard winter and crash. Or beaver may get overpopulated and become diseased wiping them out from watersheds entirely. Mother nature is a cruel taskmaster and ruthless when it comes to corrections. There is little consideration for "balance".
A moose hunt could easily be organized on the island due to the many available entry points. Cut them up and pack them out, just as mankind has done for thousands of years. I find it perplexing that many in our civil society would rather have the catastrophic consequences of overpopulation occur rather than see even one animal harmed via a bullet. And yet such see themselves as compassionate and noble. Curious thinking to say the least. Perhaps they have never witnessed creatures dying from disease or starvation.