Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Paddler age observation.
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Selfsuffi |
dew042: "Soledad: "I brought 5 kids in this year ages 8, 10,10,12 and 13. LMAO!! I actually started laughing out loud at this one...co-workers are just shaking their heads. :) |
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ekffazr |
the problem (for the statistics anyhow), is that if I don't go they don't go. they could, and they could even use my gear, but they don't. its good for me, as I always have canoe partners and someone to carry the food barrel though :) |
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BobDobbs |
"Young People" (I'm 46) have it a lot worse now, as we are essentially forced to work high paying/high stress/zero flexibility jobs or be very poor, courtesy of the so-called 'affordable care' act. I'm in a position to know what it costs my company to employ workers pre and post ACA implementation. WOW - most have NO idea how much their employers are spending on them, because they don't see it in their paycheck. I have accumulated enough money by now that I would LOVE to switch to a more flexible job, or one I could simply quit, and find another. However, the 'obamacare tax' (IE being FORCED to buy crazy expensive insurance) would be so onerous, that I would then be forced to draw down my assets, which would force me back into the rat race. THIS is why spend our $ on avocado toast folks! |
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mschi772 |
My boss would also have a stroke if I even more than two days off between Apr and Nov. I'm more of an extreme case than others, but it's still true that many of my generation cannot afford the time to commit to a BWCA visit. It's either not in the budget or literally not permitted. In a country where workaholism is praised and becoming more and more necessary to make ends meet, finding the time for something like this is just plain difficult for anyone but the luckier few. I'm 32 and am hoping to make my first true BW trip next year (Clearwater to Johnson Falls or perhaps Horseshoe/Vista). This is only possible because over the past year I have made a STRONG effort to launch my own business (mobile auto detailing is more enjoyable and more profitable than caring for natural areas) in order to have a hope of having enough control over my schedule and free time to be able to do more than just work my youth away. Even this wouldn't be possible without the support of my significant other's income, and one large unexpected bill will still put more than the luxury of a BWCA trip in jeopardy. |
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nctry |
ghost of murphy lake jim: "RTurner: "I'll latch on to something 4keys mentioned. I did a week long trip this fall with my daughter, son and his girlfriend. I was surprised and a little disappointed by how few women we saw in the BW. We saw one large group, probably 5 canoes that had 2 or 3 women, but those were the only women we saw the whole time and we saw more people than I expected to that time of year. " Boy, that being said... my experience was I was impressed by how many women I met out there. I met a gal (late September ‘12) who was solo with an older golden retriever. She may not have been going for 40 days, but she was definitely well set up in her bell magic. |
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A1t2o |
It just looks like couples are doing more things together or not at all to me. Maybe some of it is just my perception but it feels like that cultural shift is keeping people at home more. |
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missmolly |
dex8425: "TheGreatIndoors: "OldPhart: Your observation about people being generally unprepared to retire doesn't surprise me and saddens me. I started saving to retire at 25 and if I had it to do again, I would have started at 15. I also agree that people spend what they earn, even if they're earning a quarter million a year. |
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ghost of murphy lake jim |
RTurner: "I'll latch on to something 4keys mentioned. I did a week long trip this fall with my daughter, son and his girlfriend. I was surprised and a little disappointed by how few women we saw in the BW. We saw one large group, probably 5 canoes that had 2 or 3 women, but those were the only women we saw the whole time and we saw more people than I expected to that time of year. " Expect a gender imbalance currently. https://www.statista.com/statistics/190118/outdoor-activities-participation-by-gender-in-the-us-2009/ First they are the majority for general outdoor activity. Next lets take into account what percentage of BWCA visitors would list fishing as the main reason for the trip, I would guess something like 50% give or take 20% to be sure. Once again fishing is a male majority activity and probably by a much higher margin. |
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AdamXChicago |
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missmolly |
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ozarkpaddler |
missmolly: "I think money is also in play. As a group, Millennials are poorer than old folks. Some don't even have cars...by choice or generational chance. " Absolutely! When I entered the workforce well paying jobs WITH benefits were the norm. Companies were firmly anchored in our communities and you didn't see their doors shutting with little notice. Housing didn't cost an arm and a leg, plus, you didn't have to sell a kidney or mortgage the farm (LITERALLY in my case) to pay for medical care. You don't have to look at any studies or statistics to note that folks are working more hours just to make ends meet. There is less time for recreation and less disposable income to "Recreate" with. |
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olwaterhound |
I didn't know BWCA permits and visitor count was slowly declining. Maybe one reason is fewer traditional 2-3 week destination vacations. Most time off now seems to be 'bite sized', a few days here and there. Can't use up a day on each end for travel if you only have 3-4 days. |
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inspector13 |
missmolly: "Your observation about people being generally unprepared to retire doesn't surprise me and saddens me. I started saving to retire at 25 and if I had it to do again, I would have started at 15. I also agree that people spend what they earn, even if they're earning a quarter million a year. " As little as it is, a turn around has started. And just this morning I heard that Millennials are taking the lead. |
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goatroti |
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missmolly |
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Minnesotian |
You all might not be seeing them in the BWCA...yet...but the MN State Park system is being used: "Characteristics of Minnesota Residents visiting MN State Park This section of the report focuses on Minnesota residents that visited Minnesota state parks and contrasts these visitors with the population of Minnesota as a whole. The age and party composition of Minnesotans visiting the state parks is shifting slightly younger in 2017 compared to 2012 (p.10-12). • Adults between 19 and 40 years of age are a significantly lower percentage of the party composition in 2017 than in 2012 (23% vs. 27%). • Children 12 years old or younger are a significantly higher percentage of the party composition in 2017 than in 2012 (24% vs. 19%). • The age distribution of survey respondents mirrors the Minnesota population. • In terms of party composition, the portion of Minnesota parties with children/teens is higher in 2017 than in 2012, and similar to 2007 (2007, 44%: 2012, 39%; 2017, 44%), reinforcing the idea that the shift towards older visitors seen in prior studies has slowed." Source: MN DNR State Parks Survey Report 2017 “Every generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it.” ? George Orwell |
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TheGreatIndoors |
OldPhart: I basically agree with this statement. People didn't buy iPhones, iPads, TVs, multiple cars, etc. Things are cheaper now, but consumerism is the new norm. (I'm no exception!) |
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TheGreatIndoors |
OldPhart: I basically agree with this statement. People didn't buy iPhones, iPads, TVs, multiple cars, etc. Things are cheaper now, but consumerism is the new norm. (I'm no exception!) |
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johndku |
Unfortunately when you add my age in and average it out, our average tripper age goes up to almost 30. |
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Canoearoo |
missmolly: "I think money is also in play. As a group, Millennials are poorer than old folks. Some don't even have cars...by choice or generational chance. " I agree with this completely. Quite a few need to live at their parents home to pay off their school debts and to save up to get their own place. It is hard work world out there for the 20-30 and even 40s. Health insurance takes up a lot of paychecks nowadays. |
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Gadfly |
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OCDave |
missmolly: "I think money is also in play. As a group, Millennials are poorer than old folks. Some don't even have cars...by choice or generational chance. " The young have always been poorer than the more aged. This will be eternally true. What might be overlooked is that a generation ago, canoe tripping "up North" may have been considered high adventure. Today's youth might perceive that same trip to be mundane compared to their trips to Machu Picchu, New Zealand, Chile, Japan (places a "poor" neice has traveled before her 26th b-day). Far flung destinations and exotic locations are as easy, perhapes easier, to reach than the closest BWCA entry point. Millenial might have their noses in their phones because their are booking an AirBNB at a destination us older folks haven't ever considered. |
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dew042 |
Soledad: "I brought 5 kids in this year ages 8, 10,10,12 and 13. That begs the question - did you bring them out too? |
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dex8425 |
We're definitely the anomaly among our peers. Most are slightly envious that we are "so adventurous" but most also say they wouldn't embark on a trip like we do. A lot of millennials are soft from being coddled growing up. Sleeping on the ground, not having phone service, not showering every day, not eating fresh fruit and vegetables, physically exerting oneself, not being in a climate controlled car or building 24/7, and (heaven forbid) having deep, meaningful conversation with someone else; these things are hard sells for most of our friends. A lot of our friends do the same stuff we do though! I just backpacked the BRT/moss lake trail/ caribou rock trail with a 31 year old friend and a 25 year old friend last weekend. Saw no one! Views on views on views! |
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4keys |
They are now in their 20s. Our daughter still likes to hike, paddle, and camp but probably won't do a BW trip again. Our son likes to do anything outdoors, the harder the better (to stress out his mom, haha). He has taken newbies to the BW and has also taken 2 solos there. I do think many of the younger people are limited by vacation time, and money. Some of their vacation time needs to be reserved for holiday trips home, and if they have to travel, that means more time. And unless you live in northern MN, it takes a day to drive to and a day from the BW, leaving less time to paddle. And most don't have high paying jobs at that point, not to mention student loans to repay (which is probably a lot more than when we were that age) and at 26 they have the shock of paying for their own health insurance. At that age most can not afford to take a day off without pay. Our son has a truck payment, there is no public transportation to get him to work. Where our daughter lives she cannot afford a car, but luckily has public transportation, tho that adds up too. I must add that on our trip from the Crab Lake portage this summer we saw several middle age and older men (didn't see any other women besides myself this trip). One group consisting of a grandfather, son, and 12 -ish year old grandson. One group of 6 mid 20s guys, some hand carrying plastic grocery bags(garbage???) And one 70 year old who was excited to make the portage in 29 minutes while carrying a canoe. I was impressed. At our age (mid 50s) we have a decent amount of vacation time (is it ever enough?). We have worked hard to get our expenses down (car payments, mortgage etc) so we can now afford to take trips that we couldn't when we were younger. It's too bad that for many people, by the time they can afford to take long trips, their health doesn't allow it. |
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bwcadan |
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RTurner |
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dew042 |
Pretty much everything you express is mirrored in this article: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/09/02/aging-paddlers-more-bwca-trips-but-fewer-young-visitors |
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ghost of murphy lake jim |
Its been a month or so since checking in because of the extra work involved with visiting the site through a proxy server but I find it ironic to see a thread expressing a lack of young paddlers. Ill still be paddling as long as the interest persists but this website is no longer playing the active role it once did in fostering and encouraging that interest. murphylakejim |
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bwcadan |
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awbrown |
Want to see a lot of young people interested in paddle sports. Attend Canoecopia. Originally a mostly canoe show, it has expanded into some canoes and lots of kayaks and SUP's. The place is full of young folks. I don't care what they paddle, as long as they paddle. |
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olwaterhound |
Perfect weather, rivers and lakes still warmish and leaves turning quickly. Saw quite a few paddlers: almost all 60s or older. Seems the little phone screen is diverting eyes from the big screen of outdoor beauty. Perhaps a real challenge to future of conservation. It's hard to love and preserve what you've never seen. |
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ducks |
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TrailZen |
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Soledad |
Just doing my part- for most of them it was their 3rd year, for one of them it was his 6th. |
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OldPhart |
missmolly: "I think money is also in play. As a group, Millennials are poorer than old folks. Some don't even have cars...by choice or generational chance. " the reason we went paddling back in the day was because it was the only thing we could afford to do, if millenials are poor, it's because they spend money on everything and everything that gives them an urge to buy it compare the cost of a week in the BWC to a week skiing, or boozing it up on spring break, not even close also they go out to eat and drink a lot, it was eat at home or in the cafeteria, rarely went to a bar, like maybe once or twice a semester, it was nearly always at somebody's place, I never had a credit card, or a checking account, if I didn't have the cash, I didn't buy it, and my parents sure didn't pay for it no generation has ever pizzed money away like millenials, maybe they figure they might as well considering the debt this country has, once it comes due, their personal debt will be a drop in the bucket |
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missmolly |
ozarkpaddler: "missmolly: "I think money is also in play. As a group, Millennials are poorer than old folks. Some don't even have cars...by choice or generational chance. " Oz, when I was in college, grants paid for my tuition and books and working minimum wage for 20 hours a week covered my apartment, food, and car. It was easier for us. When I returned to school 25 years later, things had changed. I had to work four jobs (I was a computer lab assistant, teaching fellow, I read to two blind women, and I worked Sundays with autistic children.) to keep my nostrils barely above water and I graduated with great debt. The world changed greatly in that quarter century. |
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dex8425 |
TheGreatIndoors: "OldPhart: I disagree. As part of my job I see the deep details of financial situations of countless couples. There is absolutely no financial difference between people in their 20's, 30's, 40's or 50's. I would say in general all are poor money managers, with expensive car payments, credit card debt, no saving, no budgeting, little to no charitable giving, and living above their means. Makes no difference what the household income is. |
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Jonesy |
On my family trips we've seen a fairly balanced (subjective) mix of tripping groups. As we were exiting on our trip this summer we went by 4 groups. 2 groups of father/young sons, 1 father/young daughter/son, and 1 group of college aged guys. I may have been the oldest one at 42. Previous summer we saw mostly under 40 year old groups coming through the Cross Bay area, including 2 female paddlers getting some time away from family responsibilities. Jonesy |