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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: How many BWCA violation tickets are written?
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| Author | Message Text | ||
| PINETREE |
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| tumblehome |
I've had 3 interactions with rangers in the B-Dub and the Q in 60 trips. No violations. |
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| schweady |
Never met any DNR officials on any of our trips. |
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| bhouse46 |
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| Canoe42 |
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| 1lookout |
Tuscarora, Bright and early as dawn broke: ( As my old Swedish Grandfather Henry the Blacksmith in Henning, Mn would say"I can fix anything but the break of day or a broken heart") My partner and I come across a really nice family. First thing she and I saw was a hatchet stuck up in a tree. There was another thing or two going on, I can't remember, mind you this was 30+ years ago. So K. points this out to the parental party. Well the permit was made out to the Mrs. We got to cite you for this. She thought for $100 she was going to prison or such. No we say,We must fine you for something. What about the children? Well she starts tearing up, and my Ms. K starts tearing up, even me and the Mr. are tearing up. He points my sorry butt up the latrine trail and tells me his wife get's emotional, I say so does my partner, and she's the law. He say's write us a ticket,ok, we're wrong no problem. We go back to camp, and the 5 year old say's "Told you Mom, thats not right, putting a hatchet in a tree!" |
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| andym |
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| PINETREE |
quote 1lookout: "Well you all influenced me! I'm going to gather 20 former rangers I like Firegrate Tabloids and a front cover picture maybe of Rangers cruising or portaging a canoe. Knowing this site you will get all kind of suggestions on Title and front cover picture. You could even have a chapter or two from individuals you contacted in the field. |
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| ppine |
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| bstrege |
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| PINETREE |
quote LuvMyBell: "I've never been checked by a ranger in the BW, although while I was out fishing a few years ago, a buddy back at camp said he was visited. They checked the toilet and the fire pit. Other than an initial 'hello' greeting when they first paddled ashore my friend said they did their check and left without another word. Not trying to start something,but they would check nobody if every time they see a Ranger or Conservation Officer you could just throw a line out(Their time is valuable too,and they want to move on down the line or lake and do their job,and like all people most of them want to be friendly and hope you enjoy your vacation). There just doing their job,and like all above individuals, you and also I have been checked very few times and they took just a few minutes every 5 years or so out of your activity to protect a resource which belongs to society, including you and I and future generations. We the society hired these good people to do a job for us,and they are doing it. I remember a person working for fisheries doing a fish creel census or survey on a lake to determine harvest rates of fish from this body of water. He had to ask and sometimes interrupt people from fishing to measure their fish and get pertinent information. Over a summer he contacted over 400 boats. He said he never got turned down from a interview,because people understood what he was doing was intended to be good for the resources. Sure he had a couple fishermen get a little grumpy and wanted to get back fishing,but they even new and understood. I know you really understand and your comments were very mild. Just had to add a little. |
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| TeamTuna06 |
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| andym |
We've only been checked once in 7 trips and that was just by DNR for canoe registration just after leaving the EP. We also once came back from a day trip and discovered that the fire grate had been changed. So, we know the rangers were about somewhere in the vicinity. |
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| tonyyarusso |
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| bottomtothetap |
quote 1lookout: "Since noone is bored yet: |
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| tonyyarusso |
quote PINETREE: "If it is the County Sheriff, he is more of a water Safety Patrol. More interested in life jackets,open alcohol bottle and proper boat handling. Also maybe he sees you with a life jacket or maybe does not want to rock your canoe with his boat wake?" Well, while they were checking other things too they certainly did seem to be asking about fishing licenses in their process. The wake issue is certainly possible, although they were puttering around slowly enough that it wouldn't have mattered. *shrug* |
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| georgelesley |
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| inspector13 |
Lake County has only an elected sheriff, an undersheriff, and 14 sworn deputies for over 2100 square miles of land, 840 lakes, and who knows how many miles of roads that they have to patrol. I have to think if you were to encounter one it would be at public boat landings such as Fall Lake, Moose Lake, or Snowbank Lake near the BWCAW, as well as Lake Superior public accesses and other more popular ones. I think they go out with the DNR officers especially at fishing openers. I don’t know how many sheriffs Cook and St. Louis County have. Good thing most people are good and want to do the right thing. |
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| OBX2Kayak |
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| dprochef |
I actually wish that i say them more often. I always enjoy seeing them and stopping to talk to them. They usually have a great story to tell. |
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| fitgers1 |
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| 1lookout |
Motor routes tend to be cans/bottles or motor violations. The odds seeing a ranger of course would be greater near Ep's I'd be by an ep at least twice a trip,(Right) whereas in the interior everyone is dispersed. I generally liked to do maintenance rather then enforcement, others vice-versa. Myself 75% digging holes in the ground, 25% public contact. I could type all day about things I've seen, I'll leave with one of my proudest moments: We were camped on Duncan. About sundown, a group of young wanna-be-fellers were up on a bluff, yelling to their compadres in camp"Can you hear me?" "We can hear you." along with everyone else for miles around. Then we heard the sound of an ax, thump thump. It'd been a long day so decided bright and early the next a.m. to pay a visit. The morning dawned pea-soup fog, so we atarted paddling from the S.shore to the N.shore. about 100' off shore we find an empty canoe.hmmm. We pull into camp, fire is still blazing, everyone in their tents. I get out of the bow, go to tie up the canoe to a large white pine. As I rounded the tree, an ax with a 4 foot handle was stuck in the pine, with a 6" v-notch already cut. As I stumbled over 100+ empty beer cans, My partner with flame in his eyes and ears spewing more smoke then the bonfire, yelled I want everyone front and center NOW!!! Well, $1500 in tickets later and a swift steel toed boot, we escorted them out of the wilderness. At least we were nice enough to give them back their canoe! kept the ax as evidence!!!! |
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| 1lookout |
I remember it was July 4th, 1982 my partner and I had left Pine for Mountain(long day). We stopped @ N.Fowl Lodge to have lunch with Earl Nelms the owner. We sat there looking @ this kayak going in circles. We departed for the Moose Lake portage, and kayakman follows us. This the portage? Yes, Sir. This a 1940's 2-man wood/canvas Folbot folding kayak. Can you guy's help me carry some of my gear? I'm wore out after a week of trying to get up the Grand Portage. 7-trips and my worthless partner quit on day 2. Well, we're not here to help you, but where you headed? Michiganman answers Lake Athabasca. He holds up his 100# camera and says he's making a documentary of his trip. As he unloads his other gear packed in garbage bags(1 day-pack)my partner and I realized, this overweight fellow has problems. We ask ,can you show us on the map where your going? Oh yeah, he pulls out a map out of some tourist center brochure, showing the whole route from Lake Superior to Lake Athabasca..you know the kind that shows little drawings of teepees, big fish,etc.. You got a permit? A what? So now we had him cornered.Sir, to be on US side, you need a permit, to be on Canadian side, you would need to have gone thru customs procedures. How do I do that?..... Well you go back across the Grand Portage and go to the proper officials. Not again!!! Also, we do not see you have proper gear/food etc. Well, I'm going to stop at the convenience stores and restock along the way. Okay, you got 1 choice Sir, go back and get proper paperwork, we're going to be camped here for a week, we see you again, or you'll be turned around again. Never heard of him again. |
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| rtallent |
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| kyleyewongster |
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| schweady |
quote kyleyewongster: "...a fine for Tobasco is like getting a speeding ticket for going 56 in a 55..." Tabasco is a gateway bottle. :) |
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| schweady |
quote tumblehome: "quote 1lookout: "I was a ranger in the BW in the 80's. " +1 |
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| mjmkjun |
In 2012 was headed back to Sawbill from Cherokee (i like this lake) and met up with very same ranger at Ada Lake landing. What's the odds we'd meet up again the following year. Checked my permit....chatted awhile. |
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| 1lookout |
Sag narrows on pre-opener 82? , about 100 boats waiting for midnight. About 6 p.m we find a group "set-up" on the closed campsite right in the narrows. This was not A Campsite. So 5 boats all about 125 horse, 3 wall tents 2 generators and 19 people on the "site" "Well were not camping, we're just "shore-fishing/picknicking" I can't remember the exact rule-book definition, but yeah, technically they were right?? Maybe. Okay so you got too many people, too many horses, and 2 too many genarators. Do you get reception on your TV set? No, they reply. Okay, I'm not sure on the regs of a useless TV, but your all going to be written for too many people, too many horses, 2 too many genarators and 1 too many bonfire!! They were asked to leave! This was before tattoo's were vogue, and this group had alot!!! We wore out our pens on violation notices! |
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| PINETREE |
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| PINETREE |
They have been around and know all the tricks of the trade. |
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| ChuckShick |
quote tnvol: "Many people see violations that happen and then see officers who only give them a "good talking" and think that it was the officers choice to do that or that they were encouraged to do that. The fact is it is very hard to get convictions in some areas without concrete evidence to back it up. This is really hard to come by in the backcountry setting. Outside of actually seeing a violation take place it would be very hard to prosecute on some of the violations mentioned. +1. I am also a warden. It's VERY hard for any officer to cite someone for something they don't personally witness. Sometimes all you can do is give a potential violator that "talking to." It may not seem like much, but word also gets around from one warden to another, especially when covering a place like the BWCAW, which generally sees the same wardens and FS officers doing the enforcing: "yeah, I remember that person - there was a complaint about him doing X last year that we couldn't prove... Might want to check that site..." It's all good intel to keep whatever occurred from happening again (which is the overall goal, with or without a citation). And ++1 on getting courts to take most natural resource violations seriously. They're important to US and when committed, seem outrageous to US because we actually care. But when they're seen by a judge who does not hunt, fish, canoe, or do anything even remotely tied to the outdoors, it's a tough sell. Federally (which most non-wildlife BWCAW violations are), it can be even tougher, because so may U.S. Attorneys seem to use "dollar loss to the government" as their litmus test as to what's worth prosecuting and what isn't. Also, just because you don't see a ranger or warden doesn't mean they aren't there, whether in uniform or not. Sometimes observation is better than contacting someone, and if you've always been law abiding and have never been contacted, that might be part of the reason why. A bigger part of the reason, though, is the fact that there's only so many people covering the BWCAW and only so much they can get around at any given time. They also have other duties - training, travel, admin work, and days off to balance with the amount of time they spend in the bush. Fortunately, I think the vast majority of the people using the BWCAW are self-policing, simply because they care about the natural resources around them. |
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| wildernessfan2 |
I really wish they would publish the convicted either on the DNR website or Newspapers to let people know how serious you people are. This thread kinda shows just how people think there is little enforcement. They do that down here every day with mug shots. Heck this is why people use to go to hangings as a deterrent and see the humiliation. I just think this would really aid enforcement and help people understand just how important the rules are before they are broken. |
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| torpedo |
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| Big Tent |
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| WhiteWolf |
#3 North end of Insula May of 08'. We were returning from Thomas,, normal permit check. Amazed they were in (ice had just gone out) and they even had gone over to Alice. NEVER been checked for fishing liscense. have also seen them several times ,, rangers,, and not been checked. I know the DNR used to set up tents on the parts of Seagull that are closed to fishing early in the year at campsites. Just so no one would camp there and fish. It was obvious,, as it was the same tent make at 3 sites with no other gear around for several days. |
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| nojobro |
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| YaMarVa |
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| Landstryker |
I've had my permit checked a few times, but only once in camp. I happened to be on an entry lake at a site fairly close to the landing. It was early morning and a solo paddling ranger stopped by, no doubt owing to our proximity to the entry and the fact that we had two wooden boats, which he was eager to admire. I offered him some coffee (he was obliged to decline) and we chatted for about 10 minutes. As others have pointed out, one rarely encounters a ranger anywhere other than an entry lake. I may have seen one once on the Tuscarora-Missing Link portage (420 rods) but I could only see him from the waist down as I was carrying the boat. By his shorts, I'd guess he was a ranger. With so few officers and such a large area to cover, it's easy to imagine that the FS chooses to focus on entry and motor lakes where they can encounter the most people and make their presence most felt. Every time I come to a trashed campsite though I wish there was more enforcement, or more that I could do to help. A couple years ago I read reports on these boards of moops shooting off fireworks on Gillis; a week or two later I asked a ranger at the Duluth station how best to confront or report such people if I encountered a similar situation. She seemed horrified at the notion of campers confronting each other in the backcounty (not without reason) and offered that one could try to report them after the fact. I suppose that's all you can do - perhaps with pictures and boat reg #s and so forth - but it didn't seem that they had any formal apparatus in place to take such complaints or follow up with them. |
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| PINETREE |
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| Savage Voyageur |
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| wildernessfan2 |
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| bojibob |
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| emptynest56 |
Consider getting the FS number on speed dial on cell phones when you get back. I know from the Outdoor News that a whole gang of MN DNR wardens head into the BW a few days before fishing opener to crack down on "prefishing". |
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| tnvol |
I know many get discouraged when that have reported something and have felt that nothing was being done about it. I have been guilty myself of giving off the impression while taking a report that the incident was mundane. Be aware that it can be somewhat depressing from law enforcement's end when we aren't able to take care of these things. I think this sometimes comes off as indifference, but its not. |
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| ZaraSp00k |
Oh, I did get checked for a current canoe registration once, but that was outside the BWCA by DNR. |
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| Naguethey |
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| LLindy |
I ran one of the fire engines out of The Superior NF for many years, I am not LEO qualified or even a (Forest Protection Officer this is what the back country rangers are called)just an engine captain. While driving my engine on the Wanless road one summer I met a logging truck on a tight curve. The logging truck was hauling --- (Not Logs) and ran me off the road, I was able to get back on the road without damaging my engine. I knew where the logging operation was going on up the road so I decided after a while that I would have a chat with the fellow if he was there. He was not only there but he was bragging to his buddies about the incident when we walked up to him. He then proceeded to hassle me and show off in front of his other co-workers. I kept things professional and on the way out I took the license of his truck down. I gave the information to our Forest Service LEO and sure enough he got a ticket. He then decided to fight it, so I drove down to Duluth and had the pleasure of meeting him again in federal court to testify. The only thing I remember about the court testimony was the guy answering to the judge.(I don't know how fast I was going your honor, my speedometer does not work) He was found guilty and had to pay a fine seems like it was only about a 100 bucks. To this day I doubt the guy has learned his lesson, as he was still defending himself and trying to blame me in court. Lesson for all of us. (If he would have not hassled me and just apologized, I would have left it at that and not reported him)By the way, this was not his first ticket he had ever gotten in his logging truck. |
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| Turnpike |
quote PINETREE: "Been checked by Ranger Chris from Quetico the last three years in a row. Always friendly and you can tell he is one hard worker." He is awesome. Really cool guy. I've only had my permit pulled once by the USFS. It was on the Moose Chain and we were headed to Ensign. Everything was in order and there were no issues. |
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| mjmkjun |
quote butthead: "Not many tickets issued but, enforcement is done there. my experience too at camp site on a leisure paddle and, at a portage landing (Ada traveling to Cherokee) always polite, never an attitude. edit: oops!......this is an old thread that I've already responded to long ago....making my post repetitious. |
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| jtbwcaw |
I have never received a warning or citation as I have not violated the known laws. Previously, having worked for the DNR in Iowa, and now a law enforcement officer, I can see how people become frustrated with the enforcement, or perceived selective enforcement, of laws. The primary problems are 1) there are too few officials to enforce the regulations/laws, 2) we see obvious violations happening somewhat on a regular basis in some cases and wonder where the heck the officials are, and 3) if we receive a citation or warning we wonder “why the heck did I get this when I see outright/obvious BS going on around me and nothing happens to them. Unless you want to see cameras everywhere, that relay pictures and/or video, via the new cell towers that would have to permeate the wilderness… you will never reach appreciative equity. The threat/fear of a citation will have to remain high enough in the mindset of people in order to be an effective deterrent to the violations that can drive many of us crazy. In local law enforcement, we have reserve officers; perhaps the USFS should consider this as an option for effective enforcement of policies. |
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| jtbwcaw |
No, it is precisely the point of citations and always has been. There is nothing sad about citations. If the USFS said, it's okay to use trolling motors tomorrow, the following canoeing season would probably see hundreds of them in use; primarily by fishermen. But… since there is the threat of a citation, due to the fact that trolling motors are not allowed, people choose to follow the law. |
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| Sides |
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| PINETREE |
quote LuvMyBell: "jtbwcaw, I think you miss my point......... I agree with you, and it should be enough. But the sad truth in society if people will not be penalized a certain percent will break the law,and if the fine isn't high enough,the thought of even being caught is not enough penalty. I myself was not brought up that way and my conscious would do me in by itself. Breaking the law also always shows disrespect for others and shows they really don't care how it effects others. |
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| 1lookout |
his documentary. I relive this moment daily!What a clown. Todays violation: We were coming off Sag, Campers Island is just N. of Narrows to the civilized world. We were a motoring with full 25 on a calm day, out of the corner of my eye, I catch a reflection, glint,of a beer can. My motorman had already changed our course towards the site. We pull in to 2 individuals relaxing with a cold one. Well, now there's 46 full cans. Where did you come from? Answer: Marabeauf where you get the beer? Sag Store How? We paddled 2 miles in and 2 back How much did it cost? $1.00 a can(Nowadays would be like 3) Well, finish your beer and enjoy it, we're confiscating the rest, and $100 later they were drinking lake water. In all my years, if we confiscated, they can pick it up @ the GM. Ranger station. Never seen anyone reclaim their evidence. Did once "borrow a pack of smokes" to a gal going thru nici-fits. She alctually stopped and payed!!! Never try to think quitting smoking in the BW is a good idea she asks" What kind are they? |
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| RC123 |
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| wildernessfan2 |
quote PINETREE: "Back 65 or so years the DNR published all fines and who,when and what in there monthly magazine called the Minnesota Volunteer." Exactly..public humiliation does make an impression. Outta sight outta mind.. I can appreciate they are stealthy and respectful but, once in awhile they need to make a show of it like when police flood an area to show force and deter bad activity. |
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| bellolake |
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| ChazzTheGnome |
That’s all I have every seen. I would think that if a ranger was at the ep spot checking peoples gear and whatnot that would help. |
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| PINETREE |
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| mocha |
quote wildernessfan2: "Seems like this has gone in defense of the Park Rangers for some reason. Clearly this is a not an issue of bad Park Rangers or even the need for more. Heck everybody loves them! Sheesh.. Somebody tell me they ran into a bad Park Ranger! I am sure it's pretty much non-existant..sure it has happened I suppose but, prolly just a bad day or they are no longer Rangers. " yes, there are "bad" rangers, overzealous in their newly-assigned authority...just hope you don't get one of those visiting your camp! |
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| MrBreeze |
Also, everyone of us seems to have a camera, most are digital today, take pictures and then give those to the rangers, outfitters etc. I think it is up to each of us to help the law enforcement folks by teaching the correct way and then reporting if not resolved. I love this place! |
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| wildernessfan2 |
So there is part of the problem..the boss tells them to start writing tickets and everybody starts to dislike them because their mean. Clearly there are a lot of violations as the other people who break rules thread shows. Do you need a permit to carry a handgun in the BWCA or is that another don't ask don't tell. Anybody ever been asked about a gun? Down here they post everyone who has been arrested in the newspaper daily with pictures I might add. I would like to see the same for the few that actually do get ticketed no pictures needed or name even for that matter. I think it would make a good statement on how serious they are about the rules.. Then again I suppose the local related businesses wouldn't like that as they might think it would deter people/money from coming into the area.. rules breakers or not. Heck even if they listed the tickets given for each season I think it would make a statement on how much we REALLY care about the rules. Seems most everyone has been disgusted with violations and without dialog it's not going to change. |
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| mocha |
quote MrBreeze: "I like what Mocha said about the rangers and how the providers need to help out. But we are the first line of defense and if we see a violation, you should attempt to discuss it with the people who are doing the violating. Don't preach to them but just let them know that what they are doing is wrong and what they should do. If they give you an attitude, then record their canoe reg #, location time and date, or their outfitter info and then report them to the outfitter. They know who they rent their equipmnent to and then they can discuss it with them or refuse to rent to them next time if they feel that way. mrBreeze, so true on trying to help people out, you'll know if your suggestions are taken to heart or not. Also, YES,definitely collect info about the canoe stickers, lake, and take photos... esp if the party seems unapproachable. |
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| homerun23 |
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| WhiteWolf |
quote burntsider: "What do you regular BWCA visitors see as the rules most often broken? What are the most egregious?" The 4 boat-- 9 person rule at the ports. Wouldn't happen if people would choose to have their Sunday lunch somewhere else. I don't think large groups even think that when they breakout the picnic basket somewhere along the portage they are in fact holding the portage hostage from others legally using it. Portages are made for MOVING,, if you want lunch,, find a campsite or pull over on a shore lunch spot. IN far 2nd place is debarking/cutting and even felling trees that are alive. Always in camp or very close buy. Idiots. What are they going to with it? Split it, stack it and come back next year when the wood is well seasoned?? |
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| misqua |
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| Savage Voyageur |
quote misqua: "Most of you won't believe this, but it is certainly true. I've been going to the BWCA since 1971, and have a cabin on a lake in the SNF, and NEVER in my years in the BWCA have I ever been visited by a Forest Service Ranger. Just luck I guess, although I'm always legal. I've seen Forest Service personnel gathering data on invasive plant species locations, but they never asked about permits. So, none have ever approached me. On lakes outside the BWCA, but still within the SNF, I was approaced by MNDNR Ranger checking fishing licenses, but that only has happened once. So with that, the chances are pretty low that you will ever encounter a Ranger, at least that's been my experience. However, there have been many times that I wish they were around so that I could have given them information on people that were violating the rules. I saw one group with a Keg of beer, (and yes they portaged it in). Many times with groups that exceeded the size of 9 people camping at one spot. People with bottles and cans, etc. I'm sure all of you can tell stories of violations you've encountered also." Kegs of beer are legal in the BWCA. A keg is not a can or a bottle. I know of an outfitter that stores multiple kegs for people in their cooler. Now that is service. |
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| bottomtothetap |
In 2000 we met a ranger crew when we were camped by Lower Basswood Falls. They were loaded with lots of gear, ready for a few days or weeks of hard work. Never asked to see our permit but asked if we were just arriving or leaving (they noticed everything was packed up) since they needed a campsite. We were just leaving and they were quite grateful for the site, even giving us some of their bait that they realized they were not going to have much time to use. Had a real pleasant visit with them and they showed us the inside of the nearby boathouse, explaining the gear they stored there and how they use it to go about maintaining the resource. On that same 2000 trip we came across a different crew working on the portage between Gun and Fairy. One wanted to see our permit, which we showed him, and while our encounter was brief, this guy left a bad impression with me. He just seemed to have a bit of an attitude, demanding, rather than asking for our permit and generally enjoying giving orders. I guessed he was fairly new and was feeling his authority a bit. Or maybe just having a tough day. I've never encountered any other authorities in the BWCA in almost 20 trips. |
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| georgelesley |
I made an abrupt course change and the wife asked why. I told her I was not going to give up one of my favorite fishing holes. As they drew closer they hailed us and identified themselves. A quick permit check and conversation and they went their way and we went ours. We did report the disposable diaper in the thunder hole we spotted at our campsite. |
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| gutmon |
quote tumblehome: "I agree that a warning may have been sufficient. However, accidents do happen and broken glass in a campsite is not good for anyone.quote kyleyewongster: "I'll kick out that soapbox and admit that my group has been fined for having a glass bottle. It was a tiny bottle of tabasco. |
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| winner |
He did check our permits as a formality. In all of my years fishing in Ohio, I've never been checked even once in hundreds of outings and thousands of miles floated. I would almost like to be checked at some point... Winner |
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| IBFLY |
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| PINETREE |
quote mjmkjun: "In 2011, was pleasure paddling on Cherokee when 2 rangers paddled up to me and asked if I was camper on the point (#886). A new latrine hole needed to be dug. As it happened, my tent was the one setup on that site. She wanted to get OK for starting the work early next day. Checked permit, friendly chat and thanked me. She and another female ranger paddled up to site very early next day to begin their work. Impressive. They must have started paddling from Sawbill station just before crack of dawn. Always looked at those latrine holes,and that is some tough work to dig with rocks and everything. |
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| PINETREE |
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| gutmon |
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| HansSolo |
I'm really amazed by the response to this topic. Apparently there are Rangers out there. I was beginning to think they were Phantoms, because I never see them. Although I replied earlier about Rangers in the BWCAW, I didn't include Quetico Provincial Park. Doesn't really matter though, I haven't seen a Park Ranger in QPP either. The only Quetico Rangers I've seen, have been at the Customs Stations, or at the EP Cabins, but never on the water or in the back-country. Hans Solo |
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| mutz |
For luvmybel they are doing there job but just remember if there is a question on there part to give you a warning or a ticket and you have an attitude you will probably get the ticket over the warning. As a retired police officer I would say to anyone that pulling into someones camp to tell them they are violating a law or regulation is not a smart thing to do and could very easily escalate into a confrontation or fight. No matter how passionate many are about the rules in the bdub, the only real option is to report violations when you leave or if you see someone with the authority to respond to the violations report it to them. The only violations I would ever see would be at a portage because when we see someones camp we steer out and around and stay as far away as possible. |
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| gutmon |
quote LuvMyBell: "I've never been checked by a ranger in the BW, although while I was out fishing a few years ago, a buddy back at camp said he was visited. They checked the toilet and the fire pit. Other than an initial 'hello' greeting when they first paddled ashore my friend said they did their check and left without another word.The only time you need a fishing license is WHILE YOU ARE FISHING (or in possession of fish). |
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| boonie |
I haven't been checked or even seen any on my 8 trips that I can recall. I wonder if you are less likely to get checked in Sept than July/August...? It seems that maybe you'd be more likely to get checked on Moose or Knife than LLC than going in Little Indian Sioux South...? |
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| billconner |
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| housty9 |
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| eagle93 |
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| HansSolo |
Great topic! I've been tripping in the BWCAW since 1977 and have logged over 30+ trips in the BWCAW, not counting Quetico Provincial Park. With the exception of the far western region, I've covered most every major BWCAW route, and some two or three times. In all my trips, I have NEVER encountered a U.S. Forest Ranger! In fact, I've only seen one Minnesota DNR Official during that time span as well. It's was on "Big Sag", about a half mile before we were about to land at the parking lot at the end of our trip. The Minnesota DNR Official slowly motored by me, while surveying my canoe. After a few seconds, he sped away. I can only assume he was checking my registration stickers as he slowly passed by. That was about 30-years ago! Hans Solo |
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| PINETREE |
About 4 years in a row in Quetico until last year. Always friendly and have a good chat. Got to know the one in Quetico and he recognizes us right away. |
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| PINETREE |
quote 1lookout: "Since noone is bored yet: Good stories. Thanks for doing the job. My only wish the fines would of been larger. I guess in the early 80's that money was worth a little more. I seen some awful messes with cans littering and motor violations that these people knew what they were doing and didn't care about the effects on others and the environment. Just like people who key scratch a car or break windows,they just do it for reasons I have not figured out yet. I know a few of the Minnesota DNR Conservation Officers and they can also tell you stories how people make false excuses etc..,on many of incidents. So you have to realize once in awhile a DNR CO might be a little suspicious even when you are telling the truth. Over the years they heard it all. |
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| ducks |
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| aholmgren |
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| Divainthewild |
I did video our last Ranger visit (Me and Trix) - from Ranger Rick and Ranger Sue. He was pretty proud of the camp we were at....he did the stairway and landscaping at our camp. Plus, when 2 Nazi Camp Chicks make camp - you KNOW there isn't going to be any violations. We got an A+ for camp and tarp work. HA! |
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| LuvMyBell |
If the law is no trolling motors allowed, the law itself should be enough to make the vast majority obey that law, NOT the threat of some punishment attached to that law. That is what is sad IMO. I am not naive enough to think that we don't need teeth (punishment) attached to our laws. There are always some who don't care what the law is and will do whatever they want. I would hope that the threat of some punishment isn't what makes the majority of people obey laws. |
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| FOG51 |
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| LuvMyBell |
quote jtbwcaw: "The threat/fear of a citation will have to remain high enough in the mindset of people in order to be an effective deterrent to the violations that can drive many of us crazy. Very sad if a threat /fear of a citation is all that keeps most people from violating laws. |
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| wildernessfan2 |
quote tnvol: "As a park ranger down here in TN I can tell that emptynest is absolutely right. When you report the violations you are seeing it helps even though there may not be any citations at the time. Law enforcement, especially spread thin law enforcement, has to justify why they spend time in certain areas, or why they even have a job. Official reports go a long way towards showing the need for more law enforcement. This is not about the lack of law enforcement officers taking action. We all know the budget issues. This has been a attitude taken by their bosses on how to handle the situation over decades. Seems like they have simply told them to give offenders a good talking. As a professional they are locked into the idea it helps because you have no choice. I say it's BALONEY and penalties need to happen and they need to be seen by everyone so they KNOW it happens. THAT's why these fools keep offending in such a small area with limited rules. Everybody knows nothing is really going to happen..even the kids that we hope are going to follow them in the future are not afraid. Once again it's not the fault of the people in the field that are failing it's their BOSSES who fail to take action.. This has been going on for decades and nobody gives a damn unless it's about the wildlife! |
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| tnvol |
I know from personal experience that game wardens, park rangers, and other "green pant officers" often don't get the same treatment in court. Judges rarely see the violations as anything more than minor issues. I once had a concrete ginseng poaching case thrown out with no explanation given. It is incredibly frustrating, but getting convictions is not easy. You may think of the BWCA as a small area but imagine having to be at the right spot at the right time to catch the one guy doing something illegal the moment he/she is doing it in a million acres. And then when you actually do catch someone in the act and issue them a citation what are the odds that there would ever be anyone around to see it. Couple dozen people at the most on a busy lake? And many of those that would see it not local. I hope that this doesn't come of as inflammatory. And you may well have more experience with the local political setting than I. Generally though these issues are pretty common in any public setting regardless of location. |
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| fitgers1 |
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| Scout64 |
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| butthead |
I have been visited by rangers about 1 out of 3 trips, just checking, and a have a good day. butthead |
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| wildernessfan2 |
Few people want more policing but, are these rules just moot because they are not laws and penalties are weak? What does reporting do if there are no facts and it's just ones word against another? How would you feel if a few of us kicked the crap outta some fool for clearly and defiantly breaking rules? Just curious..not finger pointing. |
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| analyzer |
I would hope most people follow the rules because they want to, not because of some possible deterrent. I pack all my stuff in reusable containers, because it makes sense, and I believe in leaving "no-trace". I follow the fishing rules, because I want to protect the resource. I don't know that enforcement of the rules, and increasing fines, is going to help. 90% or more of us, respect the wilderness and are compliant. Those that are not, probably don't consider the fines, even if they were enforced better. There are definitely state patrol on the free ways enforcing speed limits, but you still see the occasional vehicle driving by at 90 mph. Whether you flood the bw with enforcement or not, you're still going to have some kids go in there and make a mess now and then. It has to start with their parents, and learning to respect the wilderness. keep in mind, if you put more enforcement out there, especially beyond the entry points, they are going to take up a camp sites. I personally don't want more enforcement. I'm really not seeing that many violations. In all my years, I've never seen a vehicle broken into at the entry point. Apparently it has happened. But I haven't witnessed anything. But then I go out of sag, and it's 60 miles from town. I suppose it's worse in Ely, where some kids are just a few minutes from those vehicles. I suppose in Ely, you probably have some late teen-age kids, looking for a place to party, so they set up in the bdub. Has it really become that bad? |
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| timatkn |
No it wasn't me :) I have been checked twice in Quetico---Ted Lake and Darky Lake. Twice in the BWCAW Raven Lake (they had reports of people violating PMA rules) and Lake 3. Never had a problem but then again I had all my ducks in a row. T |
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| tnvol |
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| mocha |
the "first line of defense" (for lack of a better phrase) in educating wilderness travelers lies with the USFS ranger stations, cooperators that are outfitters and cooperators that are retail locations (duluth pack, bait shops...). Quite honestly, unless someone has already outfitted with us during the current summer, every person who gets a permit from us..and all members of the party..are required to watch the video before their permit is issued. sometimes they end up watching it twice because they think they know it all but then they failed the quiz. i'm a bit surprised at the number of responses to this thread commenting they've never been checked and/or have never seen a wilderness ranger. maybe the rangers have binocs and check out the sites and portages from the water before making a visit... if you DO get checked, make sure you get the name of the rangers, make a note of the date and time and what they checked. IF you have a problem with their attitude or questions you should give that info to the nearest ranger station upon your departure. Even if you had a pleasant visit you should comment on that. with all the budget cuts you're likely to see even fewer rangers this summer. just use common sense and be responsible. |
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| Spartan2 |
quote mocha: "i'm thinking the role of the wilderness ranger is to educate first and write a citation second. most of the wilderness rangers are summer staff who also do portage and campsite maintenance along with checking permits. Wilderness Rangers are not the enemy...if you have something to hide then you deserve to get a citation. That's a very interesting response, mocha. I had never even thought (I, who writes EVERYTHING in her journal!) to write down the name of the rangers, or to comment at the ranger station afterwards. We do have the name of the ranger that checked us last year, because I took his photo and put him in our trip report, but we have been checked at our campsites several different times and the other times I have never made a note of it. Reporting back would be a good idea. Whenever we have been checked, the rangers have been polite, personable, and there has never been a problem. Of course we keep a fairly clean camp, we always have a permit, and we try not to break the rules. But I suspect it is a thankless job, and getting a compliment after the fact never would hurt. |
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| Kevlar |
the motorboat people are more concerned with the fishing than the details of no trace camping. But if you consider the number of people using the BW, the number of violations seems rather small. But some are so boneheaded! |
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| AdamXChicago |
Like Paul wrote - no penalties = continued abuse :( |
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| wb4syth |
I have never seen a citation given out. One of the checks I got was at the Sawbill landing, it was the middle of a 10 day trip and I was dropping off one partner and picking up another. The ranger said that was technically a violation as I had left and then re-entered the BW but she let it slide with a clarification of the rules... She was very cordial and I was very apologetic. |
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| oldgentleman |
It's not just the BWCA. In all the decades I've spent in the woods here in Michigan I've only had my fishing license checked twice and a hunting license once. I agree with emptynest. If you see violations be able to give specific information. I don't often witness a violation but if I do I try to get pictures. |
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| nofish |
Funny part was the 2 rangers showed up just as we were coming out of the water after a late afternoon skinny dip. Not sure what they saw but they both acted very nonchalant and were both pleasant to talk to. They were interested on my report about the portage up through the Grassy Lake area after the beaver dam broke. They checked our permit, check out the latrine area, thanked us for keeping such a nice clean campsite and then headed off to fight the wind again. |
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| ozarkpaddler |
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| DavidMpls |
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| threehorse |
Do you need a permit to carry a handgun in the BWCA or is that another don't ask don't tell. Anybody ever been asked about a gun? No, you don't need a permit to carry a handgun in the BWCA. A friend and I were checked one year and the ranger asked my friend about the holstered pistol on his belt. My friend told him that it was for protection if necessary. The ranger said, "Okay, no problem, just asking." |
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| burntsider |
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| PINETREE |
They were doing there job because they liked and cared about the resource. I know the one warden took a pay cut to take this job. |
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| joetrain |
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| Northland |
quote wildernessfan2: "quote tnvol: "As a park ranger down here in TN I can tell that emptynest is absolutely right. When you report the violations you are seeing it helps even though there may not be any citations at the time. Law enforcement, especially spread thin law enforcement, has to justify why they spend time in certain areas, or why they even have a job. Official reports go a long way towards showing the need for more law enforcement. This is very true. You have to remember that there are two different forces at work: the Forest Service's Office of Law Enforcement and Investigations, and "big" FS, i.e. the agency, itself. Or more specifically, the Superior NF HQ. The former wants to do their jobs and cite people when violations are discovered. The latter wants everyone to get along and doesn't really care if penalties are meted out for violations or not. At a meeting with Superior NF management in recent years, a rep from the SNF HQ stated that they did not want the BWCAW's "cusotmers" to "see police" everywhere. They often seem to take that to extremes, and their lack of support for/cooperation with ANY law enforcement activities in the BWCAW is reflective of that. I'm not just talking about FS Law Enforcement Officers (LEO's - not to be confused with the unarmed rangers), but also with the MN-DNR, Border Patrol, Customs, the USFWS, and anyone else who may have reason to enter the BWCAW for law enforcement purposes. That's my opinion, of course, but it's the same opinion held by the officers working for the agencies I just mentioned, who I happen to work with and know, personally. Moreover, as already mentioned, natural resource crimes don't get nearly the same traction in court as many other types of violations, so that plays a role, as well. As far as witnessing tickets being written, the chances that you'll actually see a violation notice being written to someone else are not high. It's normally a private affair and can consist of nothing more than getting the person's name and identifying information, then sending them an electronic ticket later on (that's how many federal VN's are issued these days - much easier than trying to write a paper ticket, complete with a statement of probable cause and with applicable statutes noted, all while standing in the rain, and then hoping the person can hang on to it until they get home). |
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| Mustangt125 |
unless I'm missing something that sounds bush league |
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| Swampblaze10 |
quote Mustangt125: "Why did you confiscate their beer and fine them? FYI..under BWCA basics on the home page What other rules govern the Boundary Waters? Glass bottles and cans are not allowed in the BWCA except when they are a non-food item such as insect repellent, medicines, fuel, and other necessary item which are not food or beverage. |
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| HansSolo |
quote ducks: "1lookout.. Keep them coming. Great stories. I love the "Poachers Caught" series of books. You should write a book! If not... tell us as many stories as you can :)" I agree, more stories! I'm pleased to hear that some of these bozos are being dealt with. I can only hope there's more Federal or State officials out there cracking down on these irresponsible individuals. I try to avoid the motor route lakes as it is, for a number of reasons. These accounts by "1lookout" just further reinforce my desire to avoid the lakes within the BWCAW were motors are allowed. I realize that there are violators everywhere in the BWCAW, and most other wilderness areas. But, it has always been my understanding that the motor routes experience the most blatant violations. Hans Solo |
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| RainGearRight |
quote ducks: "1lookout.. Keep them coming. Great stories. I love the "Poachers Caught" series of books. You should write a book! If not... tell us as many stories as you can :)" I could read these all day. Its too bad that people think that they are above the law and the rules don't apply to them. The worst part is these people will continue to exist no matter how many videos are shown, or citations written. Some people are just morons who don't care for anyone or anything that doesn't benefit themselves. I guess I like hearing about those that actually get caught doing things that those of us are respectful enough, smart enough, and care enough not to do. Too often I think offenders get away. Like Dan Cole says, "seven out of ten". |
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| Canoe42 |
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| 1lookout |
Seagull, 1983 opener, pull up on a site by Alpine area. Look in dudes boat, at least 50 cans on the floor, campsite carpeted in aluminum. Sir, you have a violation..well, I didn't clean out my boat this spring, I found a bag of cans in it. When we got here.The wind came up last night and dispersed them...we'll pick them up. SO, you drove from MPLS, never cleaned your boat? Well, sir, you also have a 35 horse in a 10 horse zone. Well I thought on Saganaga 35 was allowed? Sir, your on Seagull and Sag is 25 to begin with. Permit said Sag!! He swore up and down he was on Sag! Okay, pickup the cans, $100, pack your camp, take your $100 motor, and we'll follow you out of the wilderness. We followed him to the landing, he loaded up and left in a huff. At this time, a few other parties pulled in, so we did public contact. I see dude leaving, with a stringer of 5 walleyes still dangling off starboard side. We quickly tried to warn him....Well 3 miles down the Gunflint we found Still flopping dinner for the night!! |
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| HansSolo |
Thanks "1lookout" for sharing a few of your experiences during your BWCAW Ranger career. I can't say I've ever witnessed the flagrant violations of the "beer can brigade" or the tattooed violators. But, I'm pleased to hear these clowns were penalized for their blatant disregard for the rules and regulations. I can never understand why some individuals come to a place of natural beauty, only to degrade the environment by such thoughtless actions. Hans Solo |
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| TeamTuna06 |
quote mocha: "Even if you had a pleasant visit you should comment on that" I'd say "especially" in this instance. We need more good people in these positions, and I'm happy to put in some positive feedback for a ranger that can do his job without being less than pleasant. My $0.02.... Tuna |
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| oldgentleman |
As I always tell people, I have never had interactions with any ranger or dnr officer anywhere that they weren't professional, informative and helpful. I respect them a lot. |
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| kyleyewongster |
quote gutmon: "quote tumblehome: "I agree that a warning may have been sufficient. However, accidents do happen and broken glass in a campsite is not good for anyone."quote kyleyewongster: "I'll kick out that soapbox and admit that my group has been fined for having a glass bottle. It was a tiny bottle of tabasco. I'm actually happy we did get fined. This probably happened because they noticed we were younger and wanted to make an impression. It worked because now I am much more conscience about LNT. |
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| realandrea |
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| Cedarboy |
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| tumblehome |
quote kyleyewongster: "I'll kick out that soapbox and admit that my group has been fined for having a glass bottle. It was a tiny bottle of tabasco. OK, that is total BS to get fined for a bottle of Tobasco. I completely know and understand the regs. But a fine for Tobasco is like getting a speeding ticket for going 56 in a 55. Sorry to hear that it happened and I appreciate your candor in telling us. Tom |
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| LuvMyBell |
quote gutmon: "quote LuvMyBell: "The only time you need a fishing license is WHILE YOU ARE FISHING (or in possession of fish)." Yes, that is correct in Missouri. The game wardens often are at the dock when you return from fishing. When you exit the boat/canoe with your catch in hand they often ask to see you license and make sure your limit is correct, both size and quantity. |
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| tumblehome |
quote 1lookout: "I was a ranger in the BW in the 80's. " Any other stories you wish to share, we would love to hear. I've always wondered about what it's like from the other end. Tom |
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| mjmkjun |
quote PINETREE: "quote mjmkjun: "In 2011, was pleasure paddling on Cherokee when 2 rangers paddled up to me and asked if I was camper on the point (#886). A new latrine hole needed to be dug. As it happened, my tent was the one setup on that site. She wanted to get OK for starting the work early next day. Checked permit, friendly chat and thanked me. She and another female ranger paddled up to site very early next day to begin their work. Impressive. They must have started paddling from Sawbill station just before crack of dawn. Agree, Pinetree. It was brought up in our conversation. She shared that a bad day is a dig, in summer heat, down 2-3 ft only to hit a sizeable boulder. Put dirt back in and start over in a new spot.....till you can dig deep enough. Armed with a couple of spades, 2x4's, saw, hammer, nails, muscle & sweat. I do appreciate the amount of toil that's been done so we can crap sitting comfortably on a throne. As well as, the environ and health concerns if pits weren't there. |
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| PINETREE |
quote tonyyarusso: "Unrelated to the BWCA, but one interesting pattern I've noticed is that when I'm out fishing on Metro lakes in a canoe, I've seen the county sheriff make the rounds of the lake checking fishing licenses, but never me - just the motorized boats. Maybe they figure if I'm willing to put in the work to get myself around I'm also not too lazy to buy a license." If it is the County Sheriff, he is more of a water Safety Patrol. More interested in life jackets,open alcohol bottle and proper boat handling. Also maybe he sees you with a life jacket or maybe does not want to rock your canoe with his boat wake? |
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| neutroner |
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| LuvMyBell |
I've had my fishing license checked locally a few times over the years. It's always been at the dock, never while out on the lake or river in the act of fishing. Personally, I think it would be extremely rude and unprofessional to check someone's license while they were fishing unless they had a very good reason to suspect you were illegal. As far as the BW is concerned I'd have no issues with being checked at the EP, on a portage or even while paddling. In fact, I wish they'd be more visible sometimes. However, if I was fishing and they paddled up to me to check my license, permit, or canoe registration I think I'd have to say something about their rudeness. I know the rangers have the right to come into your campsite (since it's not really 'your' campsite. I understand that. I just think it's extremely rude to interfere with someone's privacy without probable cause. Just my opinion. |
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| Speckled |
Outside of the BW - 30 years of fishing coutnless lakes and rivers and have been stopped only once - fishing opener on Silver Island Lake about a dozen years ago. Lake Superior is another issue, we get checked at the ramp often, creel surveys, registration, etc... I've never had any issues and found the DNR and rangers to be very pleasant. |
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| Chicagored |
The one time I got a ticket was for not having a current sticker. My fault thought. In Illinois, you send in the paperwork and wait months for the sticker. Meanwhile you are supposed to keep a copy of the application with you as a temporary sticker and I left it in the car. I hear Illinois changed its procedure this year and you can get a sticker anywhere you get a fishing license. |
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| mcsweem |
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| timatkn |
quote Mustangt125: "Why did you confiscate their beer and fine them? They broke a basic rule, that's what you get. T |
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| heelix |
The first was on my second trip ever. All nine of us were open carry, not knowing any better. When the ranger paddled up to our camp site and checked our permit, it was a bit was initially a bit tense as more and more of us came out to see what was going on. She checked the permits and moved on - probably laughing at us noobs. The second time was coming out after that 4th of July windstorm years back. Everyone was helping everyone, and it was more about making sure everyone was safe. The third time was last Labor day - we were crossing portages and they checked our permit. Had a good chat with her about what sites were open, where the fish were biting, and was warned about a bear cub that was wandering into camps on Gaskin. |
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| 1lookout |
for a night of ...cans and bottles! We'll run tape and transcripts and oh my, the stories! Everyone is in!!! Then we'll get a book of tales! Still need a publisher? What is the Title?? Dig a Hole to Fill? Firegrate Tabloids. thanks for the encouragement, 1lookout |