Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Chainsaw use in the BWCA
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heavylunch |
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IceColdGold |
I have always thought of having a couple of cross cut saws on my list to have around if all goes bad, and after seeing what they can do, I think a guy might actually be able to cut a winters worth of wood for a small cabin with one. |
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mgosh2 |
quote IceColdGold: "I understand the whole concept of unmotorized in the wilderness, but the way I see it, it's our money they are spending, and I would prefer they do all storm cleanup and portage clearing as efficiently as possible and use the money saved to set aside more land. All things told, the 1999 results showed chainsaws and crosscuts were equally efficient. Given that, and given your post, your choice should be to clear logs with crosscuts not chainsaws. Why? Because ... 1) chainsaws are more expensive, more expensive to operate, and insurance rates are more than 4 times higher (slide 8 in the above link) 2) chainsaw accident rate is more than 18 times higher and injuryies are 120 times more sever (slide 7) |
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MHS67 |
quote Doughboy12: "A good read... HERE. When these work crews are out in the wilderness with a job to get done, I'm sure they follow each and every one of these policy's to the letter. Like most supervisors as long as the job gets done and the paperwork is in......... |
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Wables |
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LuvMyBell |
I've never used a 2-man buck saw, so I have no idea what the sawdust looks like. The second picture of the small wood chips on the ground certainly looks like the leavings from a chainsaw? |
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jcavenagh |
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OBX2Kayak |
quote Sides: "That was cut with a chain saw. You can tell by the first picture. The chain touched the tree, bounced once than cut. You can see where the saw touched the first time, it left a 1/4 inch cut next to the end of the log. Looking at the chips on the ground the chain was sharp too." Good detective work, Sherlock! I have no problem if the Forest Service uses chain saws to clean up blow-downs. Up in Maine a few years back, a camper across the lake in National Forest land had paddled in with a chain saw. I still come close to having a stroke every time I think about it. Ugh! Especially when he used it at 11:00 PM! |
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Wables |
quote Sides: "That was cut with a chain saw. You can tell by the first picture. The chain touched the tree, bounced once than cut. You can see where the saw touched the first time, it left a 1/4 inch cut next to the end of the log. Looking at the chips on the ground the chain was sharp too. " That is why I took this particular picture, the saw kerf is clearly a chain saw. I didn't say that I was against this, especially on the boarder where there are motor boats close by. Heck, two boats even blew through the south side is Coleman Island on Tuesday. Unfortunately I was too far away to get a picture. |
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Sides |
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caribouluvr |
I was recently in the remote area south of Lac La Croix after the recent blowdown and was thinking about this. The float plane noise coming from miles away on LLC was quite loud and pretty intrusive into the wilderness experience. I was thinking how I would prefer to deal with a chainsaw clearing a portage from one lake over for maybe 30 minutes the one day a year I was there, rather than the float plane noise that was constant and occurring every day of the season. |
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WhiteWolf |
I think all it takes is for some high brass to just sign off on it... I don't know about the most recent need to use chainsaws from July-- but if they hadn't used chainsaws in 99'-- they would have been clearing portages/sites for years with hand powered tools. |
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tumblehome |
Can you imagine how much elbow grease they would need to clear trails with hand saws after a storm? Impossible. |
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254Bow |
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254Bow |
quote oldgentleman: "quote 254Bow: "The only chainsaws that should ever be brought into the BWCA should be canned and carried in on the back of snowmobiles.....and any illegal mining activity should be reported with a call utilizing a new cell phone tower. There, that should about cover it!! " good points...As long as the dogs and bears practice good portage etiquette and dont't burn their trash, they should be allowed to carry guns. |
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oldgentleman |
quote 254Bow: "quote oldgentleman: "quote 254Bow: "The only chainsaws that should ever be brought into the BWCA should be canned and carried in on the back of snowmobiles.....and any illegal mining activity should be reported with a call utilizing a new cell phone tower. There, that should about cover it!! " HaHaHa ! |
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Doughboy12 |
quote tumblehome: "They use chainsaws often for trail clearing and fighting fires all the time. I guess that is why the POW WOW TRAIL is still not cleared. Because they don't use chain saws to clear trails. Time to educate you folks. Call the district rangers office and ask...! |
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mr.barley |
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walleye_hunter |
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LuvMyBell |
2old4U who worked on the portage crew for the USFS says they do not use chainsaws, opting for 2-man buck saws to clear trails. Someone else cited the Pow Wow Trail not being cleared as evidence too. Others, like Tumblehome say the USFS uses chainsaws all the time to clear trails after fires and storms. The USFS manages more than just the BWCA. Specifically within the BWCA, does the USFS use chainsaws? |
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tumblehome |
I'm a huge wilderness conservationist but I have no qualms about a trail clearing crew using a chain saw to make my portage path 'easy' for me to navigate. |
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oldgentleman |
Having used a 2 man cross cut a lot in my youth I am a big fan of chain saws. |
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2old4U |
Personally, when I was on the portage crew we used two man crosscuts and I always thought to myself the USFS could do this a lot cheaper and quicker if they used chainsaws. Rather than committing 6 people for 8 days straight you could send two guys in with a chainsaw and be done in a day or two. |
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caribouluvr |
quote 2old4U: "In a "real wilderness" shouldn't the trees be left to rot or burn, rather than cleaned up? Ironic where we all draw the line at how we define wilderness and what's allowed or not allowed.. In my opinion, it's about the noise more than anything. Unless it's an emergency situation, I prefer chainsaws not be used. It takes a lot of effort and dedication to go on a wilderness trip, and it would be a bummer to show up at a lake expecting the peace and quiet and have it be the day or two that they were sending chainsaws through the area for maintenance purposes. The manual clearing is a high price to pay, but has an important payoff for the experience of the area. I'm thankful to anyone who has done that work. |
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Doughboy12 |
quote LuvMyBell: "Okay, so I am really confused on this subject.... To do maintenance and trail clearing -the answer is no. Firefighting -all bets are off. |
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2old4U |
quote LuvMyBell: "Okay, so I am really confused on this subject.... I didn't say the USFS doesn't use chainsaws; I said on the portage crew we didn't, but it seemed to me we would've been more productive had we. I know after the 99 storm they used chainsaws extensively...in fact it was one of those crews that found my canoe abandoned on the Wonder Lake portage and brought it back to the Alton portage. |
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Doughboy12 |
quote walleye_hunter: "I think chainsaws are fine as long as they are used in the winter to go from campsite to campsite on a snowmobile in order to cut down the dead trees at campsites." They're all dead in winter...lol |
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PINETREE |
No they should not run around in the winter doing it on snowmobiles. Absolutely not. |
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mr.barley |
quote caribouluvr: "If there are chainsaws buzzing on the lake you just arrived on you can probably thank them for your ability to even arrive on the lake. I'm sure they only use chainsaws when the job is too overwhelming for hand saws.quote 2old4U: "In a "real wilderness" shouldn't the trees be left to rot or burn, rather than cleaned up? Ironic where we all draw the line at how we define wilderness and what's allowed or not allowed.. |
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WhiteWolf |
quote mr.barley: "quote caribouluvr: "If there are chainsaws buzzing on the lake you just arrived on you can probably thank them for your ability to even arrive on the lake. I'm sure they only use chainsaws when the job is too overwhelming for hand saws. "quote 2old4U: "In a "real wilderness" shouldn't the trees be left to rot or burn, rather than cleaned up? Ironic where we all draw the line at how we define wilderness and what's allowed or not allowed.. +1-- if the USFS is using chainsaws (and sometime seaplane) they need to do it-- otherwise likely not going past a entry lake.. (from experience). |
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Sides |
quote LuvMyBell: "Okay, so I am really confused on this subject.... The thing to keep in mind is fire fighting is a different division of USFS. They will use anything they have to, to stop a fire. That is once they decide to fight the fire. Sometimes they will let them burn themselves out. Sometimes that backfires on them, and the fires get big. State politics can interfere with fighting a fire, they hate fighting fires in California. If the aftermath of a fire or storm event is big enough, they will use chainsaws to aid the cleanup. In the day to day running of the BWCA they will not. Commonly understood policies of wilderness management: *No roads or timber harvest (with rare exceptions). *No motorized use except for emergencies or when necessary for purposes of administering wilderness. *No mechanized transport, such as mountain bikes, game carts, etc. *Area is managed for primitive and unconfined recreation with outstanding opportunities for solitude. *Area is managed for the free play of natural processes. *Naturally occurring fire is allowed, as much as possible, to play its natural role. *Complex congressional guidelines provide for existing levels of grazing and necessary range improvements. However, grazing cannot be increased following wilderness designation." It is the second bullet point that causes confusion. What is a "Necessary purpose" that is up for debate. The Wilderness Act allows their use for the management of the wilderness. USFS goes out of their way to not use them. USFS Wilderness |
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PINETREE |
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oldgentleman |
quote 254Bow: "The only chainsaws that should ever be brought into the BWCA should be canned and carried in on the back of snowmobiles.....and any illegal mining activity should be reported with a call utilizing a new cell phone tower. There, that should about cover it!! " What about guns, dogs and bears? |
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Sides |
quote PINETREE: " My buddies son is a firefighter for USFS, that is all he does. He is stationed in Minnesota, but fights fires in 49 of our 50 states. He does not go to California. The ones that switch to fire crews are only support, not on the front line. The fire fighters train year round. They are certified fire fighters. The "smoke jumpers" are disappearing. They now repel out of helicopters, it is a lot safer. They are not going to throw a maintenance worker out of a helicopter. The problem out west and in California, is political correctness. People used be able to go out on federal land and collect firewood to take home. Now they can't, it's illegal. Because the fires have too much fuel. |
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PINETREE |
The thing to keep in mind is fire fighting is a different division of USFS. They will use anything they have to, to stop a fire. That is once they decide to fight the fire. Sometimes they will let them burn themselves out. Sometimes that backfires on them, and the fires get big. State politics can interfere with fighting a fire, they hate fighting fires in California. If the aftermath of a fire or storm event is big enough, they will use chainsaws to aid the cleanup. In the day to day running of the BWCA they will not. " Forestry firefighting crews are made up of forest service employees that are supervisors or field crew doing maintenance and inventory on regular duty. Many switch to firefighting when necessary. Same rules as others,just exemptions or rules waived by the proper Supervisors etc for wilderness. Much of the same budget,that is what is bad now,firefighting in recent years is consuming over 50% of the USFS budget. Out west is burning up and some areas they determined by using various methods it is as drier now in anytime in the last 500 years at least. |
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CrookedPaddler1 |
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Doughboy12 |
quote CrookedPaddler1: "After the blowdown in 1999, the District Ranger authorized the use of chainsaws to fell the trees that were a potential hazard to USFS crews and visitors. However, it was not a blanket authorization to cut all trees effected by the blowdown, just those that were to hazardous to drop with the cross cut saw. I imagine something similar was in place following these latest blowdowns this summer." I don't want to argue...but I don't think the District Ranger has that authority. That would have to come from the Forest Supervisor... Brenda Halter at this point. Org chart...sort of. |
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Doughboy12 |
And one other I found... HERE. |
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MHS67 |
quote Sides: "quote MHS67: "quote Doughboy12: "A good read... HERE. Your FS must be different back there. Have you ever tried to fire a state or federal employee? Not easy. |
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Sides |
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PINETREE |
quote MHS67: "quote Sides: "quote MHS67: "quote Doughboy12: "A good read... HERE. Its not easy,but it varies by Department,I have seen it from a certain Minnesotastate agency different times. several times,it depends on what the policy or violation is about. Some things are just a no no. |
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WhiteWolf |
quote LuvMyBell: "Okay, so I am really confused on this subject.... When a big enough event transpires-- from what I understand, someone high in the USFS signs off on using motorized/gas engines in the BW for overall help to the general use. Most portage clearing folks (esp not paid) who work in the early spring or part time may never experience a "9/11" event in the woods-- and then can get by with hand tools. I can tell you firsthand on 7/21/99 nearly 2.5 weeks after the blow-- that without professional sawyers--- many ares of the BW would have driven 95% of people to stay on entry lakes as the portages were impassable for those not coming out and most campsites on entry lakes near the greatest damage were compromised as well. |
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Sides |
quote Doughboy12: "A good read... HERE. The first one is a very good read, thank you. |
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Sides |
quote MHS67: "quote Doughboy12: "A good read... HERE. I would bet money on it. The jobs are hard to get, the pension is too good. It's not worth loosing your job over. Violating policy will get you terminated quickly. |
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mgosh |
BWCA wilderness managers reported: (click image for better image) ............................................... Slide from here: https://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/documents/FS/MR_Use_of_Traditional_Tools-Skills.ppt .... |
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IceColdGold |
In Wabakimi, I think they are doing all the work with volunteers and using chain saws. I can run a chain saw all day, but a bucksaw, not so much. Although, I guy would have some serious pipes after running a bucksaw all day every day. That said, I split all my wood by hand unless the neighbor has mercy on me. It's a part of my yearly exercise routine. |
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jcavenagh |
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Grizzlyman |
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bwcadan |
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pswith5 |
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JackpineJim |
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Grizzlyman |
quote mgosh: "What tree diameters did you guys end up clearing? Mgosh- sounds like you work for usfs? Maybe you could clear this up? We cleared bigger logs- up to 24"+. Had to do several cuts in some to move them. |
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mgosh |
When I clear a trail, I first go through with an 18" D-handled pull saw and clear everything under about 14" diam. If there are bigger logs, I'll scope and plan the cuts, then go back another day with my traditional 6ft lance and raker crosscut. http://www.lowes.com/pd_248694-63731-RS+7500D_0__ |
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MHS67 |
quote Sides: "quote PINETREE: " Sides, I must have missed this in 2014. We have always been able to cut firewood on federal lands. The only time in my recollection they cut it off is when fire danger is to high. This year you don't even have to pay for a permit. There is so many dead pine trees that the Forest Service isn't charging for the permits. They figure 75 to 80% of the Ponderosa pine trees are dead. |
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LindenTree3 |
quote Doughboy12: "quote CrookedPaddler1: "After the blowdown in 1999, the District Ranger authorized the use of chainsaws to fell the trees that were a potential hazard to USFS crews and visitors. However, it was not a blanket authorization to cut all trees effected by the blowdown, just those that were to hazardous to drop with the cross cut saw. I imagine something similar was in place following these latest blowdowns this summer." Correct: It is the Forest Supervisor that approves chainsaw work, helicopter or Beaver/float plane use, and so on in the BW. As far as I remember, mechanical use can only be authorized due to some emergency, IE: Wildfire, Blow Down such as in 1999, or another emergency, yet to be named. At the time of the Pagami fire the Forest Sup was Jim Sanders. I worked for the Tofte Ranger District for 3 years, I can tell you, my crew would never think of running a chainsaw in the wilderness with out the proper authorization. As others have stated, violating policy is the quickest way to get you fired, and many employees are seasonal. Therefore it is easier to fire a seasonal employee, than a full time employee. But even full time employees get fired, or are strongly encouraged to voluntarily seek a new horizon - path/employment. Linden |
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Basspro69 |
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mschi772 |
I have no principled objections to the use of chainsaws to maintain sites and portages. I do understand and even share the concern that a trip could be interrupted or possibly even ruined by heavy chainsaw use in the area, but I'd personally get over it quite easily. My primary concern is safety: being so far into the wilderness is not somewhere I'd want to be with a chainsaw-related injury. |
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Bronco |
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shock |
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mychurchmyhome |
Rarely do Wilderness Rangers get chainsaw authorization, except for extreme circumstances. The Blowdonw of 1999, the blowdown in Lady Boot Bay (2013 I believe) and the Blowdown of 2016, and, of course, wildland fires. As far as regular maintenance goes, non-motorized tools only. Cross-cut saw and axe for tree clearing and falling. Shovel for fire pits and latrines. The Quetico, however, uses chainsaw because they only have one crew for the entire Quetico. They need to get their routes 'open' with as few as four people in one season. The Superior has a handful of crews in each district for the BW. More or less, depending on their budget. With a lot of help from volunteers. |
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Grizzlyman |
This is the 2nd or 3rd time an old post had been revived with a new post that doesn't make sense in broken English from a guest poster linking to a website that barely qualifies as the English language... |
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Dances with Sheep |
quote Grizzlyman: "So I wonder how this happens.. trolls or drunk ramblings... |
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Northwoodsman |
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Grizzlyman |
quote Dances with Sheep: "quote Grizzlyman: "So I wonder how this happens.. I'm just wondering- that's all...it's clearly a foreigner trying to sell stuff. I just wonder why and how, of all the possible forums, they find this one; and then also how do they get and find these old posts and bring them back. I assume it's just a search on "chainsaw"...but it's just interesting to me that they think this will actually work. Lol. |
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andym |
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jcavenagh |
quote mr.barley: "I guess I don't have a problem with the forest service using chain saws in blowdown areas. They can't put enough bodies out there to clean things up with bucksaws." +1 |
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nctry |
quote Grizzlyman: "So I wonder how this happens.. Chainsaw salesman. lol |
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bwcasolo |
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ozarkpaddler |
quote Basspro69: "I don't believe it was chainsaws at all, but rather Beavers on steroids that cut those trees ." That was MY opinion also, but I was afraid to be the first to voice my suspicions ;) |