Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Fishing Forum :: Disturbing Trend on Sag..
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muskiejerk |
The DNR changed the regs on this lake in 2015 due to the declining Walleye population and they have also been stocking them. It appears that they are growing slower now than they did before based on the survey information. I guess that would mean that their environment changed (clearer water, fewer bait fish, etc.). I don't think fishing pressure on Walleye would cause that trend but fewer bait fish or disease could. I think cherry picking this lake and blaming this issue on global warming is premature and excludes the lakes that are thriving right now. Something is going on with Sag in particular as all lakes and environments are dynamic in nature. MJ |
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Pinetree |
I believe 100% in global warming but that is not the problem at present on Sag at all with its deep water etc. I have seen like the spawning runs closer to home on the Whitefish chain go thru cycles or year classes of big fish. But yes the number of huge fish is down from the mid 80's on Whitefish lake where I seen fish as big as 37 inches. Reason for disappearance is mainly year class strength and yeas fishing pressure and technology of fishermen is so much better. Side note: I believe your small Stream trout lakes up the Gunflint because of being semi shallow have some years had too warm of water thus low survival of brook trout especially. This is a common trend across the state. |
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Ragged |
My grandfather lived in Grand Marais, him and his friends all fished Sag. Even way back when I never heard anyone say it was easy to fish outside the spawn time. |
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bruleman |
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"Go to the Minnesota DNR site and look under lake finder, then Sag and stocking report. They go back ten years. Looks like the earliest walleye stocking was in 2009. |
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Pinetree |
quote bruleman: "quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?"Go to the Minnesota DNR site and look under lake finder, then Sag and stocking report. They go back ten years. Looks like the earliest walleye stocking was in 2009. " It was like 60 years ago or so the first sag stocking. There was zero walleye in Sag before than. |
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Pinetree |
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timatkn |
quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?" I think sometime in the 1930's? So going on 80 years or more. If I remember right Lake trout were over fished in the 20's and 30's so they added the faster growing more prolific walleye. T |
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The Great Outdoors |
quote Pinetree: "In hot weather walleye mortality is maybe 8% in catch and release. That is 92% better survival than keeping everything. Under perfect conditions, lip hooked, returned to the water immediately without being photographed, usually done by people conducting a survey that work for the DNR. The average person doing it in warm water conditions, no way near 92% survival. |
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Pinetree |
quote timatkn: "quote Pinetree: "I knew once when the year walleys were first stocked in Sag,but forgot. Any help?" I think your right on the time,I think they just added walleye because Minnesota is addicted to walleye and than it was stock anywhere you could of just about anything. Even carp in southern Minnesota and than it was promoted as a high value angling fish. I am just wondering like some of the earlier times walleye had a vacuum or slightly open niche and they grew real fast and also the walleye craze on Sag and Sea gull river and the lakes the walleye fishing started in the late 60's and they were catching pre spawn walleyes opening weekend with limit catches of wallye averaging close to 70 pounds. I heard of groups taking over like 200 pounds in a small group of fishermen. Also sometime around 70 or so the road was tarred all the way up(maybe someone else knows the tarring date?) |
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Pinetree |
quote The Great Outdoors: "quote Pinetree: "In hot weather walleye mortality is maybe 8% in catch and release. That is 92% better survival than keeping everything. Probably true especially people that don't have like needle nose pliers etc. handy. Like some people backing a boat in from a access,you end up backing it in for them. They just can't back a trailer in. |
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Pinetree |
old blog |
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CityFisher74 |
quote arctic: "quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects." Well that's good to hear! My source was 2 US Forest Service officials who approached us as we came out of ep16 this last Saturday. They asked about unusual spots on any fish and we showed them the photo of our Walleye. Upon seeing the photo, they informed us of the invasive Lamprey that came from the Rainy River into the BWCA (we were on Lac La Croix). I don't have their contact information but hopefully someone informs them they are wrong. |
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Badgerboy |
quote QueticoMike: "I'm waiting to see what Al Gore says about all of this before I make decision on what is going on here :)" Bravo! A man of true wisdom, QueticoMike that is. |
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arctic |
It would be interesting to compare the total walleye biomass of the lake today with that of 10 years ago. Is there a difference, or are there changes to the year-classes? Climate change won't likely be affecting cold water species like trout and ciscoes in Saganaga for a long time due to the sheer amount of deep water in the lake. A HUGE basin, centered north of the border) drops to over 280 feet... |
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mr.barley |
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.That's right |
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2old4U |
quote mr.barley: "quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it.That's right So what do we do then, keep everything or ban fishing altogether? Those are the only two other alternatives...not that it has anything to do with the op, but being as it keeps coming up we should get to the bottom of it. |
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Pinetree |
quote arctic: "quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects." Yes, and the one attached to fish is silver lamprey,brook are non parasitic. I know around Bemidji there is some Chestnut lamprey which are native. There is a virus or bacteria disease also you see from the disease on northern pike mainly like a 1.5 inch circle all blood red where the disease has eaten the skin away. |
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2old4U |
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arctic |
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects." Nope. These are native, freshwater lampreys that have always been there. I've caught fish with them attached on several BWCA lakes--even 30 years ago. These are the two native to the BWCA: Silver lamprey Northern brook lamprey |
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Jane Hafner |
Jane Hafner 651-261-0562 Stillwater, MN |
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2old4U |
Having said that, some of you, no offense, are missing the point. Try to follow me here as I don't explain myself very well...but the Hawg Board is nothing more than a daily recording of fish 28" or over, as recorded by a local guide and his daily clients. It is not a record of fishing as a whole by everybody who fished that day on Sag, nor is it a reflection on any other lake in the area, Brule for instance. It simply records that guides daily catch rate of trophy walleye...AND, if you take just that into account, as I did, you cannot help but see the catch rate of trophy walleye IN HIS BOAT BY HIM AND HIS CLIENTS has dwindled significantly throughout the past 15 years. Every fish is released, just as it always has been. Every 28"+ fish is recorded, just as he has been doing for years. He's utilizing the same fishing methods throughout, and daily clients are daily clients regardless of societal trends in fishing or lack thereof, so something is contributing to WHY so many fewer large walleyes being caught by him and his clients throughout this time frame. I never expected we here would scientifically solve this issue, merely speculate on why it's happening...but to do that we all have to utilize the same unit of measurement and not go off on tangents about other lakes or trends in fishing pressure...because for the sake of this conversation it is based on one guide, a defined time frame, and what's happening in his boat only throughout that time frame. Regardless of what others are doing on Sag he is out there daily with clients catching fish...and his recording of those fish shows a tremendous downward spiral in average numbers of trophy size fish being caught. So far nobody's blamed bass.. :) |
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Pinetree |
So many variables in how you fish them,depth etc. |
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SaganagaJoe |
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lundojam |
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The Great Outdoors |
quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php How about the chance that more people are using crank baits, causing their production to drop dramatically??? :) |
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bruleman |
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bruleman |
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hooky |
quote Pinetree: "quote hooky: "Interesting read, but put out about 9 years ago. I assume the downward trend is continuing. Could very well be. This whole conversation is based on anecdotal evidence from an outfitter's "hawg" board, so who knows for sure anyway? LOL |
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mutz |
quote 2old4U: "quote mutz: "Perch and Cisco are both fish that run in cycles. On the lake I'm on in Northern Michigan (14,000 acres), we go in seven or eight year cycles, of fair to fantastic perch fishing. I know some like to blame "climate change" on everything but I think this is stretching it. " I'm just not sure how climate change can be blamed for affecting the perch and Cisco on a lake in Minnesota, but there has been no change in the cycle on the lake I'm on or any others that I fish. |
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Pinetree |
quote walleye_hunter: "quote marsonite: "What about the spiny water flea? "They" say it's bad for the food chain. Maybe they are a factor?" water flea They also eat daphnia or water flea |
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walleye_hunter |
quote marsonite: "What about the spiny water flea? "They" say it's bad for the food chain. Maybe they are a factor?" I was speaking with a guide that's been fishing Sag for a long time. He blames the spiny water flea. They compete with fry for the same food. In recent years he has been seeing less water fleas on his line and the guides have been catching a lot of undersized (<17") walleyes on Sag the last couple of years. I'm sure it will be a never ending cycle. |
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Pinetree |
Hopefully sometimes like a new introduction like spiney water flea explode in the population than decline to a lesser level. |
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Pinetree |
Smelt was one of them. They can be hard on the daphnia also. Also 2014 DNR survey Sag: Small-mesh gill nets have been used to assess the rainbow smelt population in this lake in most assessments done since 1992. In each of those assessments, the catch of rainbow smelt has declined. The 2014 catch in small-mesh gill nets was the lowest seen to date in this lake, and was well below the normal range for assessments using that gear in the Grand Marais area. No rainbow smelt were collected in standard gill nets. Rainbow smelt abundance probably peaked in Saganaga Lake in the late 1980s or early 1990s, and their effects on fish (and invertebrate) communities may now be declining considerably. |
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CityFisher74 |
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Pinetree |
quote CityFisher74: "Boundary Waters is seeing an influx of invasive species - Lamprey. These came in from the Rainy River and are a real threat to Walleye. No idea if they target trophies or not, or even if they are on Sag but they are spreading across BWCA and we have noticed Lamprey markings on more than 1 Walleye we have caught. Lamprey should certainly make the list of possible suspects." That is new to me if it is a sea lamprey? I know the Silver Lamprey is present in Quetico I know in Cairn lake and I believe is natural. They are much smaller than the sea lamprey but do attach to fish. I don't know if they are abundant enough or big enough to kill a fish. Maybe small fish |
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QueticoMike |
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2old4U |
Secondly, I don't believe in the notion that aging walleyes get big and die off...they do, of course, but they have been doing that for a millennia...it's called recruitment and as old fish die a new year class will be up and coming to take their place...as they grow to trophy size and replace the class before of them. It's not like all the walleye in the lake hatch, grow, and die at the same rate until one day there's no big fish left and everything starts all over. I'm not a huge blame the climate for everything kind of guy, but I do wonder in this case if it plays a part as timatkn mentioned with the Cisco population? Cisco are especially important to a lake's trophy fish as they are a fatty oily fish and predators that key on them can grow much faster and larger than they would on a typical perch or sucker diet. Cisco definitely like colder deeper water...where many big walleyes spend the majority of their time feeding throughout the year...so if warmer water is affecting Cisco populations then it only stands to reason it would affect that of walleyes that feed on them. I'd have to do a lot more research on whether this could be a factor on Sag, but my hunch tells me it probably has at least something to it. I think the trend to push clients to nearby Northern Lite lake could also be a limiting factor, but I have yet to make those counts on the Hawg Board to compare...but I definitely will! Could be, but why would people hassle with going into Canada if they could catch big walleye, and plenty of them, on Sag...unless the fishing isn't as good on Sag as it used to be?? Could be partly to blame, but not completely. |
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mapsguy1955 |
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Mnpat |
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mutz |
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Pinetree |
quote arctic: "quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it. Mortality goes up as the water warms during the summer. Always bothers me when somebody catches a big fish and they keep it out of the water for excessive amount of time. If it is a forage food thing the DNR should be able to look at growth rates. I do believe in catch and release,but also believe when water is hot or warm if you go out fishing to catch 100 fish you will have significant mortality. I know the early years walleye grew to enormous size in that lake and fishing pressure increased. Also maybe when walleye first were introduced in there like many times a species fills a vacuum or niche and they grow like crazy than it changes. So many variable involved. |
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timatkn |
quote mapsguy1955: "Climate change may SEEM like a catch-all phrase to some, but the facts are that it is the only global factor compared to everything else that will affect water temps, and quality. The rest is local. If my job or recreation was dependent on today's climate, I would do all of the research I could, ignoring that which comes out of the mouths of those with vested interests in retaining the status quo, IE fossil fuel companies. Maybe it is just me, but I can't see how what we are doing would NOT affect the climate in some/myriad ways, given the absolute numbers. " Speaking in generalities I agree. What I am saying is it is lazy to blame Climate Change for every problem. In this case it cannot or is highly unlikley to be a factor. Cold water species like Cisco's and Lake trout are doing fine on Sag according to recent surveys. Although globally average temps are up I do not think that has been the case on Sag. Could it be a factor in the future--sure it is totally possible but taking a global phenomenon and applying to a specific region without first looking at local conditions and species is lazy and inaccurate. It does more harm to Climate Change than it helps. It's similar to when we have a hot summer and people say, see...it's global warming. Any decent scientist will say that is weather and not specifically a sign of Climate Change. It makes people doubt the whole issue when others attribute things to Climate Change incorrectly. T |
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2old4U |
quote mutz: "Perch and Cisco are both fish that run in cycles. On the lake I'm on in Northern Michigan (14,000 acres), we go in seven or eight year cycles, of fair to fantastic perch fishing. I know some like to blame "climate change" on everything but I think this is stretching it. " Only on Sag a the trend has been downward for 15 years...decreasing by over half every 5 years...indicating the cycle of bait fish can't be the culprit or the increase in trophy walleye would also cycle with the bait. Good years of bait production would be followed by good years of better than average trophy numbers, right? |
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2old4U |
quote The Great Outdoors: "quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.php Ha! Ha! Nice try there, but the board shows almost all are caught on rigs and bobbers. I like where you're coming from though! |
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2old4U |
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hooky |
BWCA Usage Study "Participation in Fishing—Fishing is a major activity in the BWCAW. While not an exclusive BWCAW wilderness value, it is a common activity of engagement and a big part of experiences there. We asked two questions about fishing in 1991 and 2007 in order to follow some trends in engagement and the role of fishing in trips there. From 1991 to 2007, the reported proportion of respondents who fished during their trip dropped from 83% to 77%. This was a significant change (Table 14). We also asked them if they fished, whether it was a priority for the trip. Of those that fished, there was also a significant decrease in the importance they attached to it (47% described the fishing as a major reason for going on the trip in 1991, 35% in 2007)." "Shifts in Fishing An interesting shift from 1991 to 2007 was the percentage of overnight visitors reporting they fished during their trip and that fishing was a priority on their trip (Figure 8). This trend is also consistent with national trends in fishing and hunting. Data from the 2006 National Figure 8—Of respondents who fished, 47% described fishing as a major reason for their trip in 1991 compared to 35% in 2007. Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation suggest that the percentage of individuals nationally who participated in fishing has decreased from 21% in 1991 to 13.1% in 2006 (USFWS 2006)." |
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ZaraSp00k |
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it. exactly warm water and shallow fish like bass, OK but a cold deep water fish like walleye are not going to survive for long lake trout even less chance to survive after C&R |
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mastertangler |
quote mapsguy1955: " I would do all of the research I could, ignoring that which comes out of the mouths of those with vested interests in retaining the status quo, IE fossil fuel companies. " Just curious Maps Guy, have you ever contemplated that the ultimate special interest promoting global warming (whoops, climate change since the computer projections are turning out to be a farce) is the masterminds in big government? If you want to talk money there is tens of billions of dollars in play and not from private companies but rather from governments who seek power over every aspect of society, from your health care to the car that you drive to the profits of industry etc. etc. etc..... As per research my advice is to be very skeptical since the naysayers, be they the welder or the scientist, will be punished (destroyed if possible) and slandered for not going along with the globalist agenda. Step out of line as a scientist and your career will certainly suffer as the powers that be will make certain your research doesn't get published and grants seem to be given elsewhere. FWIW thats whats really going on. |
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Pinetree |
quote hooky: "Interesting read, but put out about 9 years ago. I assume the downward trend is continuing. The average fishermen is much more educated and modern equipment make him much more efficient and also I think you now more than ever have a real hard core fishermen who fishes every minute he is up there. |
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Pinetree |
It also looks that the walleye population from the early 80's forward peaked around 2000 with a great year class of walleyes hatching that year Mid 90's statewide had some great hatches The super big walleyes(over 25 inches) did not show up in the DNR's gillnets in any numbers going back to the early 80's but the mesh size used by the DNR does not catch the real big fish in proportion what is out there. Those super big(28 inches up) walleyes once and a few still are probably are in the age 20 area. Also walleye are classified as a cool water fish. Brule lake is fished very very hard now but still has a decent population. Yes less fish than maybe a decade ago. |
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2old4U |
Did a little count over lunch using Mike Berg's Hawg Board as a unit of measure, and the trend is disturbing, to say the least, of Sag retaining it's notoriety as a world class trophy walleye destination. Rough count...and I might be off one or two here and there...using comparison dates of May 13th.-July 9th...reveals the following: 2002-2007 averaged 126 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28" or over (Pretty impressive!) 2008-2012 the average drops to less than half at just 61 walleyes 5/13-7/9 28"+ 2013-2017 the average plummets by over 50% AGAIN to just 21 walleyes 28"+ during the same time frame of 5/13-7/9. I'm sure there'll always be trophies to be had in Sag, but in what numbers...and why are they disappearing at such an alarming rate? For the record 99.9% of the fish in this comparison were released to be caught again. Lack of natural bait? Fishing pressure? Runoff from major fires? Climate Change? Better fishermen in the good old days? What say you??? |
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QueticoMike |
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The Great Outdoors |
C&R is not the fool proof system that some believe. |
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shock |
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kingeric027 |
Climate change is already really hurting cisco and perch in MN lakes, which are main food sources for walleye. This will definitely be a problem for MN walleye going forward... :( |
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shock |
quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before. |
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kingeric027 |
quote shock: "quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before. " Glad I could fill you in. Plenty of other good stuff to read out there too. http://www.startribune.com/climate-change-is-a-culprit-in-walleye-s-decline/302314741/ |
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shock |
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mastertangler |
I wonder (much like the planet itself) if Mn perch and cisco populations are experiencing a natural down cycle? A cycle which may last a year or even decades? Independent of what the climate is doing? What a novel concept! What other factors could be in play? As per declining trophy fish.........again perhaps a natural cycle. Lakes don't stay trophy fisheries forever..........they may experience a natural decline for many years and suddenly rebound. The only sure thing in this world is change.........be it the climate or the fishing. |
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Savage Voyageur |
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timatkn |
Northern Light Lake has been on fire the last few years, especially for keeper size walleyes, so I know the guides and owner have really pushed people to that lake instead of Sag so some of the numbers will simply be less people in this small sample size fishing Sag. I do know the last few years the fishing changed for them on Sag with less big ones in the shallow traditional spots. They had a couple of bad years then adapted like all good fisherman do and found them in different spots (can't tell ya where). In general recently the springs have been colder and longer than usual then spring boarding into summer...the minnow spawns have been at different times (later and faster--shorter period of time) or nonexistent so those shallow spots in bays and emergent weeds where the spawns occur have been slow. That's where most of the "hogs" came from in the past on the hawg board. Fish go where the food is...if the minnows don't come in to spawn then the walleyes don't come in to feed. They are still there---just feeding somewhere else. I've seen the same thing on Kabetogama the last 3 years. The fish surveys are at a high point but catch rates on the big fish are way down. Still there but in different spots---I haven't figured it totally out yet :) Also there is going to be a natural ebb and flow of walleye size, walleye over 28" are already old. Year classes eventually have to die off and Mother Nature doesn't produce awesome year classes year after year. They all can't be huge forever :) T |
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arctic |
quote The Great Outdoors: "Sometimes those big fish die shortly after being released, or come back to the surface and float until a Sea Gull, Eagle, or Snapping Turtle chomps it. You hit the nail on the head. I would bet that the C@R mortality is really high. When folks catch a big fish they tend to keep it out of the water too long for photos, or the fish was spent from the fight, or the surface water was warm, or.... spiny water fleas--these really can mess up the bottom of the food chain. |
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marsonite |
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timatkn |
quote kingeric027: "quote shock: "quote kingeric027: "Yikes! Hopefully the decline you are seeing is skewed by sample size & lack of response more so than the decline of trophy fish in the lake.perch declining because of global warming , never heard that one before. " Climate change is a serious issue but you can't just blame it for everything or you look disengenuous and uninformed. It does more harm than good. Before you blame climate change maybe check actual fish survey results for the lake you are talking about. Yellow perch are not an abundant species nor considered important to the ecosystem or a forage species for Sag and Ciscoes are doing just fine right now on Sag. The star tribune article you reference was referring to lakes in the middle part of the state and shalllower such as Mille Lacs, Sag is considered a legacy lake...deep water, good land around it not developed and in the article you referenced it is a lake that would be resistant to problems if the future temp predictions are true. T |
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ParkerMag |
quote QueticoMike: "I'm waiting to see what Al Gore says..." Often my go-to source as well :-)) |
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Ragged |
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Pinetree |
quote Ragged: "One of my uncles was really big into fishing Sag back in the 80's and has some odd stories of Walleye catches. He's of the opinion that there is an entire population of large fish that stick to the deep parts of the main basin and eat strictly ciscos. He use to fish them with downriggers and would catch them in water as deep as 90ft. Sure seemed like a rather odd place to be fishing for them but he's got the pics. He did say there was high mortality rate and that he wouldn't try it these days with current restrictions. " Big fish like bigger prey and if like Timikin mentions you have a year class of cisco which is abundant, than northern pike and walleye will also key in on them. |
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Pinetree |
quote timatkn: "Yea my neighbor fishes lakers in spring and even then they had to quite sometimes due to walleye mortality. Caught one walleye on Sag 60 feet down and it was toast---that one was a 17 incher. Yeh the swim bladder etc. will expand quite a bit from that depth. |
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timatkn |
My neighbor did say that he felt the catch rate was down but then went on to say they caught 100 walleyes a day this year :) He did note that many customers no longer report on the Hawg Board and that the owner/guide had his personal best year ever for Hawg fish last year. Probably doesn't help the conversation except to say the Hawg board isn't very scientific which I know the original poster said as well. T |
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timatkn |
T |
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Basspro69 |
quote 2old4U: "http://www.seagullcreekfishingcamp.com/hawgboard.phpIt can also be a year class issue, sometimes a super class of walleyes from a very good spawning year will dominate the fishery for over a decade sometimes and once they start to die off you will see a definite drop in overall trophy numbers. |