Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Trip Planning Forum :: Basecamping
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mgraber |
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billconner |
mgraber: "I see no problem with base camping. I do know that there is some concern with the authorities that more and more people stay closer and closer to the entries and this has cause a few problems with all sites being locked up for an extended period, making it difficult for people just entering or ready to exit. On a Quetico note,I do have a problem with more and more people base camping on Basswood, especially North Bay, who never entered their entry lake or river, which is required by law. You are expected to head directly to that entry lake, as soon as possible, without detours. I have met many who do not. Keeps things pretty crowded, and is against the law." Not against law if they have the Agnes Basswood Basecamp permit which says "This entry can be used as a regular Agnes Lake entry OR be used to base camp on North bay, Big and Little Meriam Bays and Ranger Bay of Basswood Lake." |
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Tman |
nofish: "I've noticed over the year that there is a very strong tendency within certain BWCA users to criticize any form or method of tripping that differs from their own." So true, but not limited to BWCA users. Seems like half the world is super judgemental anymore. Just check out backpacking sites for example. "Your Appalachian Trail through hike doesn't count unless you do it exactly like I did." I have never base camped and can't imagine doing so until I am no longer able to cover the miles and explore every day. (Or, I convince my wife to try the BWCA. :-) Having said that, as long as you aren't breaking any rules and don't negatively impact others, trip in whatever way makes you happy. Paddle on... :-) |
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schweady |
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? " Pretty much. They can go day tripping, portage to other areas, fish all day, have lunch at another site... just about anywhere during the day. They just can't leave the wilderness and come back in, nor can they spend overnight at a different site as the leader. When picking up the permit, each canoe is provided a small stub of paper that the occupants need to carry to prove that they are part of a group with a leader who has the full and legal permit. |
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billconner |
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? " "wherever they please" as long as they stay in the BWCAW. |
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BigFlounder |
Savage Voyageur: Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there? That's what I was thinking, but I've never been to the BWCA so thought maybe I was missing something. Personally I'm all about base camping and that's my plan come June when my son in law and I head into Vista Lake for our first ever trip to the BWCA. Base camp, relax and fish. |
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timatkn |
A long time ago I used this outfitter for services. I guess I judge people how they treat me and what they charge me, and I can only say nice things along those lines. The second part about people entering and leaving using the BWCA like a camp ground I agree with his thoughts. If it isn’t illegal, which I think it is, it definitely violates the “spirit” of the rules. I think the outfitter was complaining more about this type of camping. I also agree with Carmike and nofish, couldn't care less if you basecamp—travel daily, single, double, quintuple portage...whatever is fun for you go for it, but don’t judge others for doing it differently as long as it is legal. T |
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TominMpls |
Savage Voyageur: " I mean, I guess that the tent sites can do a tiny bit of recovery in the hours that no tent is on them, compared with a base camp where the tent is there all day. But really, sites that are in such overuse that this is an issue are just dying the whole season anyway. It would be interesting for a biologist to actually study this - does a site used daily all summer do any better if it's left during the day as contrasted with one that's used all day? |
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Mad_Angler |
I basecamp a lot. On memorial day, I would take my aging father. Basecamping was the only way that he could enjoy the BW. I also basecamp with my wife in the spring. I like to find a spot and get settled. Then, I can focus on fishing and relaxing. If the goal is fishing, basecamping is generally much more effective than moving every day. In short, this is just another example of that one outfitter being a pompous a$$ |
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jhb8426 |
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billconner |
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eOar |
I stopped at his store once. He told me all about the Twin Cities people that camp on Wood and then run to Ely and have a latte and get groceries. I wonder how he knows where everyone is from? |
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onepaddleshort |
If more and more canoe trippers become base campers that never go more than a day’s travel in to base camp then those sites don’t turn over, and all the sites further in become less and less occupied and used. This limits the numbers of campers that can use the area and still find a place to camp the first and last nights. As the number of base campers increases there will come a time where you will need to reserve a site like a State park campground. And that will necessitate fewer permits, fewer campers, and less business for an outfitter. |
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Northwoodsman |
I sure wouldn't post a comment like that if I was an outfitter. I have seen what he referenced. Back in the late 80's into the early 90's when I lived in Duluth I would often head up to the SNF or the BWCA for a quick overnight trip mostly fishing or hunting. Brule Lake was an easy lake to get to and I would see huge aluminum tankers loaded with big car-camping tents, screenhouses, lawn chairs, coolers, grills, firewood, kegs and etc. People would make many trips to get all of their gear to a campsite on Thursday or Friday and would leave by noon on Sunday, leaving a lot of garbage and broken equipment behind. This was certainly the exception. Interestingly enough, the only rangers that I have ever seen in the BWCA were on Brule or at the EP. They knew what was going on. |
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nofish |
Lightfoot: "After finding and reading his entire remark, I think he was specifically targeting the people who base-camp on the entry lake, then exit and re-enter the BWCA whenever they want, without getting new entry permits for re-entry. He states that this has never been legal and he's right. I would agree with him if that's all his statement is meant to include." I read it as them being 2 separate issues. He rips "Twin Cities fold or city dwellers" for driving 4 hours and then setting up camp 30 minutes into the wilderness. Then he goes on to rip people from coming and going at will from the BWCA. For sure anyone leaving and re-entering is breaking the law and worthy of calling out but he makes it sound like everyone is doing that which I'm sure its probably not the case. If it were that constant of a problem he should like the FS know so they can set up there and pass out a few citations. |
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Lightfoot |
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andym |
And personally, what happens on entry point lakes is pretty much unimportant to my trips. Paddle through and move on. Although we might wind up trying Lake One with my 4 year old great nephew this summer. But heck, if we're camping on Lake One its hard to complain about others who are paddling 30 minutes too. Now, if I could just figure out what he thinks of wet footing. |
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4keys |
The only possible problem with basecamping is when someone does it on an entry lake that only has 1-2 sites. That can make it hard for those who encounter bad weather /high winds but still need to enter that day to find a site. |
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skillmo |
Anyhow, I always enjoy talking to him. He's shared some really good videos on kevlar repair. And yep, he is definitely into his SRs. |
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mutz |
onepaddleshort: "I haven’t read any of the blog in question. But it does seem to me that base camping is a bit of a threat to an outfitter’s business. The whole permit process was set up when most folks did canoe trips- not canoe camped. The idea of a certain number of permits per entry is based upon the idea that there is turnover at campsites a day’s travel inside the wilderness. The turnover is necessary in those areas so folks paddling in can find a campsite for the first night and folks paddling out can find a campsite for their last night before exiting. I disagree with your reason that the permit process was set up so there would be a turnover on campsites, the reason the permit process was set up was to limit the number of users of any particular area. Also to say that going in and having a base camp is not canoe tripping, what is it? We basecamp the reason for our trips is to fish, some go to see how far they can get or how many lakes they can get to, everybody camps. Not sure how you can say one is a canoe trip the other isn’t. |
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inspector13 |
How could anyone tell others how they should enjoy their vacation time? Maybe the article was written by someone that needs to be less judgmental. Do what is the best for you. This is coming from a person that enjoys exploring more than base camping. |
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Duboly |
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treehorn |
There's degrees of "basecamping." Generally speaking, if you follow all the rules in this document, nobody has a right to tell you you are doing anything wrong at all. 9 people, 4 canoes, 14 nights max at a given site, etc. https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5127832.pdf The gripes you will hear (from outfitters, other campers, etc) would usually pertain to sketchy practices you hear about where an outfitter will go out and establish a camp for a group, then ferry them there (motorboat if allowed) with kegs of beer, large mosquito tents, full size grills, etc. Then maybe even re-supply when/if necessary. Or people that establish camp on an entry lake and continually go in and out to re-supply themselves or something. Those are things people will take issue with. I can't imagine why anyone would bat an eye at you staying 2-3-4-5 nights at a site, especially a few portages in. |
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Fyresparxx |
Just as long as you're following all the rules, not making a nuisance of yourselves, and not taking a campsite for more than two weeks, I think you're fine. You should enjoy your vacation the way you like to. |
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PikeChase |
This is the quote I read that got me thinking about it. I don't want to post the link. The lake in question is the first lake in to the entry point. But if you don't mind dealing with crowds and boat traffic and that's how you want to trip I don't understand what would be wrong with it. I know it's not a written rule that you can't basecamp, just wondering if there was an unwritten rule I wasn't aware of. Like baseball. :) The post does go on to complain about people leaving the BWCA to run back to town and return to their site later in the day, which I'm in full agreement is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. |
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walllee |
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treehorn |
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Stimpy |
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JJ505 |
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KarlBAndersen1 |
inspector13: " Maybe the article was written by someone that needs to be less judgmental. " Ya' think? |
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KarlBAndersen1 |
Really? |
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mgraber |
You are correct as that is what I am using this year for one of our trips. Sadly, when those are gone, many are using the Sarah,Kahshahpiwi, or regular Agnes permits without actually entering those lakes. |
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mgraber |
You are correct as that is what I am using this year for one of our trips. Sadly, when those are gone, many are using the Sarah,Kahshahpiwi, or regular Agnes permits without actually entering those lakes. |
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ockycamper |
We backed it down to trips with 2-3 portages. Even did trips with one portage. Now we take our groups up to Seagull and let them base camp off of Seagull. They portage just canoes and fishing gear into the other lakes for day trips. Everyone likes this best. Best part of it is that it takes only a couple of hours of easy paddling to get to our base camps. The rest of the time is free for fishing and exploring. Like others have said, you can take years on one lake and not really "know it". |
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inspector13 |
Stimpy: "After googling that quote... " Oh, I see… If the author is who I think it is, he is known for his crass and sometimes outrageous comments. |
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murphylakejim |
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bobbernumber3 |
Stimpy: "After googling that quote, I read through a few of the route suggestions on that outfitters website. All I can say is wow! I can't believe an outfitter would make such derogatory generalizations about "Twin cities dwellers" and "city folk". That guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and use a different outfitter. I'm glad to see that they're not a sponsor here. " thanks for the googling idea. And all I can say is wow, as well! Makes me think of TOYOTA... The Outfitter You Ought To Avoid. |
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inspector13 |
Ha Ha Ha Ha! Did anyone read the Q and A page? |
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nofish |
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PikeChase |
To schweady's point I don't fully understand how a group staying in one spot for 7 days on a busy lake will be any different than 2-3 groups staying on that same spot for those same 7 days, but thought I might be missing something. Also, after reading more on the site it's evident they have a poor approach to say the least and have some sort of chip on their shoulder. |
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walllee |
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ockycamper |
I hope the hardcore group delivers for him. Our church brings up 16-18 every fall. We would certainly not use his services as we "basecamp 2-3 hours from the outfitter". Apparently we are "Boundary Waters Deplorables" |
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PikeChase |
I guess I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are? Is basecamping something that should be avoided? If you do feel that way, how many nights are acceptable to stay on a site? |
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carmike |
I am continually confused by people's eager desire to argue about the superiority of single vs. double portaging, or basecamping vs. moving every day, or packing heavy vs. packing light, or hammocks vs. tents, or whatever. Preferences are just that...preferences. |
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mc2mens |
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Grandma L |
He made very public internet statements- so why not make his public statement more public. Maybe he needs to own it. Ely Outfitter statement |
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TominMpls |
Grandma L: "I note that we are all not using his name or that of his outfitting business. Interesting - he is willing to make those statements about paddlers and generalize about people from the Twin Cities and we are not putting out his name? Maybe we should. Wow, even his description of the "Level" of his suggested Wood Lake trip is insulting and disparaging. He's not really a people person, is he? |
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unshavenman |
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bwcadan |
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johndku |
I would have no illusions about telling somebody else how to trip as long as they're following the rules. |
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MrFeesh |
As we were headed out the waves were big enough to be splashing over the side as we were going from site to site to find them all full, finally after rounding a point and as we paddled as hard as we could, (part of the time going backward) we finally got a site to camp and wait out the wind. Could be everyone was doing the same as us, but in a situation like that base camping close to an entry can really cause a lot of congestion. So if we were unable to get a site around the islands close to the entry, how much trouble would we have been in if we had gone back and slept in the truck and launched the next day? |
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nofish |
Personally I do whatever I want and whatever makes sense for me and my sensibilities, within the rules of course. I don't care what other people think I should be doing or how people think I should go about it. I'm in the BWCA for myself, not anyone else. |
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Grandma L |
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schweady |
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schweady |
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Dances with Sheep |
murphylakejim: "If I were a bigger troll I would call and ask to book a 14 day base camp trip on wood lake for spring...." +1... love it |
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nofish |
murphylakejim: "If I were a bigger troll I would call and ask to book a 14 day base camp trip on wood lake for spring...." Also make sure to tell him you like to sleep in and refuse to start your day before noon. |
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nofish |
Stimpy: "After googling that quote, I read through a few of the route suggestions on that outfitters website. All I can say is wow! I can't believe an outfitter would make such derogatory generalizations about "Twin cities dwellers" and "city folk". That guy has a serious chip on his shoulder. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and use a different outfitter. I'm glad to see that they're not a sponsor here. " I find it very interesting that he's so openly willing to disparage people from the Twin Cities and city folk in general. He's got to be smart enough to know that a good amount of his customers likely come from the Twin Cities. Apparently not many of them are reading through this full website before booking a trip. I know I'll for sure be avoiding this particular outfitter in the future. |
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mutz |
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billconner |
Hard to be sure but I believe rangers have the latitude to permit a delayed entry because of weather. No idea if all do or if they would agree with your assessment of safety, but probably. A couple might get more slack than a large party of 20 something's as well. I think it's all individual judgement. And that's all based on the idea that the very few and stretched too thin rangers even were around your entry point. |
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jeremylynn21 |
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montanapaddler |
jeremylynn21: "Correct me if im wrong but as long as the permit holder doesnt leave the bwca, anyone in the party could could go wherever they please and return to said campsite and not be in violation? " -You may not enter/re-enter at a different point or date using this permit. -Permit and stubs become invalid when the trip leader exits the wilderness. I'd say the first one implies that you can't, but the second one implies that you can. In my opinion it goes against the intent of the rules to have a part of the group exit and reenter though. I think that if you can't stay in the Wilderness and disconnect from the rest of society for the duration of your trip, you should just go stay at one of the non-Wilderness USFS campsites where you don't have any such regulations. |
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Jackfish |
Personally, I couldn’t care less what he, or anyone else, says about the type of trip we like to take. And I’m not even from Minneapolis! |
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billconner |
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Northwoodsman |
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Savage Voyageur |
“Those people from the cities” that just want thier coffee, internet. Talk about painting with a wide brush! I’m kind of glad I read this because I would never recommend thier place of business to anyone. Then there is the comment, that if a group stays at the same site for a week they will wear out the area. What’s is the difference if you stay there for a week or 6 other groups stay there? |
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nofish |
Those entry sites are still going to get used everyday. Image 10 groups enter an EP on a weekend (5 each day). If the first group decides to base camp on the first site Saturday morning then the next 9 groups of the weekend will need to push further. If base camping is not allowed but the first group decides to take the first site on Saturday the next 4 groups entering saturday will need to push further. When the first group moves on Sunday it opens up the site for 1 group entering on Sunday leaving the other 4 entering on Sunday to push further. So without base camping 2 groups could use the site on a weekend and the other 8 will need to push further. So in reality base camping in this scenario only impacts 1 extra group, 9 versus 8. I'm guessing the overall impact on a site is slightly more invasive with a new group setting up each day. If a single group stays for 10 days thats only 1 tent placed, 1 food pack hung, one groups trash able to be left behind, etc. If the site sees 10 different groups on 10 different days thats 10 tents, 10 food packs, and 10 groups garbage to potentially be left behind. Either way the site is getting used every day and there is no logical reason to think 1 group of base campers is harder on a site than 10 groups moving each day. |
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BnD |
TominMpls: "Savage Voyageur: " No study necessary. Take a trip inside Quetico Park then on your way out stage at a site near an entry/exit. That’s what we typically do the day before our exit to get an early start home. Most we have staged at are a disaster. In a word, Yes campsite overuse significantly adversely affects campsites. |
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TominMpls |
BnD: "No study necessary. Take a trip inside Quetico Park then on your way out stage at a site near an entry/exit. That’s what we typically do the day before our exit to get an early start home. Most we have staged at are a disaster. In a word, Yes campsite overuse significantly adversely affects campsites. We all know overuse kills the sites. The question is whether two models of overuse differ - the first, which the outfitter seems to think is better, involves a site being used every day, but vacated each day during the daytime hours, to be used by a different user, and the second, which the outfitter dislikes, wherein the site is also used every day, but by the same party continuously, hence meaning it isn't vacated during the daytime hours. My guess is that a few hours of being uninhabited doesn't really make any difference to the decline of the site - if it's used literally every day for the entire summer (as most EP-proximate sites are), it's going to be in about the same condition whether it was 90 one-day visits in 90 days, or nine ten-day visits in 90 days. |
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thlipsis29 |
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