Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Trip Planning Forum :: Outfitters charge to watch the Leave No Trace video?
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billconner |
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bwcadan |
frlu0501: "I was shocked when we were charged $2 last week to watch the Leave No Trace video at an Outfitter. Been going into the BWCA for 15 years and have never been charged, including our spring 2018 trip. Maybe I am missing something, but the topic of charging for a permit is not quite the same as charging for viewing the video. I have no problem with a charge for the permit service at an outfitters, but viewing the film seems like quite a stretch to do a charge. |
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egknuti |
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joshmontague |
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4keys |
The other point of view is that it does cost the outfitter something for the permit and time of an employee. If they process a lot of permits each day that time can add up. |
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waterdog |
In 40 years, I've never heard of being charged to watch the video or get a permit issued, so I too, would have been surprised. If it was clearly stated on the rec.gov website when checking out that cooperators are authorized to charge $2 for issuing the permit, then no surprise at pick-up. And if the cooperator chose not to charge the issuing fee, then the customer would appreciate the hard work of their outfitter even more! The rec.gov website could also clearly state that no issuing fee is charged if permit is picked up at a ranger station. We all like to make informed choices about how we spend our money. |
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Portage99 |
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frlu0501 |
I'm entering the BWCA this weekend. For many years I was not charged by an outfitter for issuing a permit, last two years I was charged in Ely at different outfitters. Now we can print our own permit, I'm not sure I need to stop at an outfitter this year. However, I'm sure we will as my wife likes to look around and shop. I will certainly remember the outfitters who charged me the last couple of years. It seems petty but it still irks me, clearly. |
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ComplaintDepartment |
perhaps this particular outfitter thinks he should charge 2 bucks because the government requires him to show it to you, and that's his way of proving to the government he did what was required and also to remind you that it is the government, not him, that requires this it does cost him money to show it to you, and at 2 bucks he's likely losing money |
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GopherAdventure |
johndku: "I don't see the outfitters driving around in Ferrari's and eating caviar. I'm sure some or most do OK, but what I see is hard working people with a love of the outdoors, trying to serve others like us. I haven't been charged to watch the video, but I'd get it if I was. +1 In all honesty, a BWCA trip is about the lowest cost trip you can take in the country. Fees are super low and that’s great because it makes the wilderness accessible to people of all financial/economic situations. If $2 leaves a bad taste in your mouth, just take a peak at the “fees” on your cable, cell phone, or various utility bills, those fees are a lot more then $2 and you’re paying them monthly. I understand outfitters charging the optional fee, especially in a year when many of them are anticipating fewer customers due to Covid. In a normal year, the USFS Ranger Stations are open until 4:30, cooperating outfitters are open until 9 or 10 during the summer which makes it much easier for most people to pick up their permit. I’m willing to pay for that convenience. Thank you “cooperator’s” for making it much more convenient to pick up my permit, feel free to hit me up for $2 every time you issue me a permit (3-4 trips per year). My 2 cents, Tony |
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Spartan2 |
frlu0501: "Rehashing an old post. It is hard for me to grasp that, two years later, you are still upset about a $2 fee. I hope you have a wonderful trip in the BWCA this year, and would suggest that you take a moment to think about those of us who live too far away to travel there now, and who have had to cancel our plans until 2021 (if we are lucky.) We will save a lot of money this summer, on lodging and meals en route, on cabin rental, on gasoline, on purchasing the things we need up there--because everything is more expensive in the area supporting the canoe country. But I would have rather had my trip, even at that cost. Even if I had to be "irked" by a fee or two along the way. |
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Northwoodsman |
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nofish |
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Northwoodsman |
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Boundary Boy |
Agree with that in both cases. |
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cowdoc |
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nofish |
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frlu0501 |
bwcadan: "Would be surprised if the outfitter is a sponsor here. Would I be correct?" I wasn't sure if they are a sponsor here so I chose not to name the outfitter. It doesn't look like they are a sponsor, however they are listed in the outfitter and lodging sections of the site. If I can name of the outfitter without ruffling any feathers, I certainly will. |
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Savage Voyageur |
Here is an exact example...Let’s say I go into Fleet Farm and buy blaze orange jacket and bibs, Rifle, ammo, knife and a hunting license. I just spent $1500 dollars. They are still going to charge me the $2 or $5 dollar license issue fee to me. Even though I go to Fleet Farn every week and spend hundreds of dollars each year. It is a convenient way for you to get a permit and save you time and sometimes gas money driving to a ranger station. They are doing you a favor and a service using thier computer, paper, ink, or phone line, time wasted by the employee getting you a permit. I’m surprised it’s not more money. No it’s not going to make or break an outfitter but it would add up if you looked at the number of permits issued every summer. That permit they issued you is no different than a tee shirt, fishing lure, canoe rental, or anything else that they sell. It’s a product with a cheap $2.00 price tag. The original poster said that they will not be back to that outfitter because of the $2.00 charge. We I’ve got a news flash for him, the next outfitter you go to will do the same exact thing. |
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frlu0501 |
A1t2o: " $2 for the group. I'm assuming it was for the permit, not the video. |
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OCDave |
ozarkpaddler: "Never been charged and never thought about it. BUT, when you think about it, "Reservation.gov" charges for your permit and they aren't investing a "Live" employee to take care of you. IMHO, $2 is really under-charging for the service regardless of what you spend extra?" Is there a requirement that outfitters issue permits? Or, do outfitters offer permits as an opprtunity to attract other business? IMHO charging $2 to give me something for which I have already paid will always result in that being the last $2 that estabishment will receive from me. |
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ozarkpaddler |
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frlu0501 |
I can easily grab bait in Harris on my way up, get my fishing report online, and souvenirs from the gift shop down the road (which the wife also did on the way out). This outfitter won't be receiving our usual $50-100 purchase in the future. |
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frlu0501 |
Is this something new? |
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mr.barley |
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billconner |
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VoyageurNorth |
Is there a requirement that outfitters issue permits? Or, do outfitters offer permits as an opprtunity to attract other business? IMHO charging $2 to give me something for which I have already paid will always result in that being the last $2 that estabishment will receive from me. " In the agreement to be a cooperator, you are required to issue a permit to anyone who has sent it to you or if someone comes in & has the permit transferred to your online account. You are also required to make sure they see the video if they haven't seen it in the last 1-2 years. You also are required to do it online so you must have a computer etcetera. It does help to get customers in the door too but if you want to be able to issue permits to your own customers you are required to do it for anyone who comes in. The Forest Service doesn't offer any reimbursement or payment and the Fishing Licenses do automatically pay $1.00 for any license we sell. |
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nooneuno |
frlu0501: "I was shocked when we were charged $2 last week to watch the Leave No Trace video at an Outfitter. Been going into the BWCA for 15 years and have never been charged, including our spring 2018 trip. Shocked and appalled that an outfitter would try to help keep the lights on by providing a service like this they should do it for free just to make you happy. Next time pick up your'e permit from the forest service office, the video there is free, of course you have to do it during their government hours. 2 bucks? 2 bucks? 2 whole bucks for Christ's sake....... |
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GhostPaddler |
ComplaintDepartment: "can't believe the things people dream up to complain about here I'd like to lodge a complaint! I don't think one should be able to post without first logging on. After all, what value is an opinion if you're unwilling to own up to it? See what I did there? |
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canoeski |
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bombinbrian |
frlu0501: "I didn't think this thread would gain this much traction. If it was just some summer help asking for the $2, she was just doing her job. You should have asked to speak with a manager or owner. I see both sides. Probably could have been handled better on both sides. It's $2, but you had just spent extra money there as well... |
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adam |
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billconner |
No, Lynn, I can imagine the depth of regulatory requirements a federal agency has developed. Its astounding. |
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ozarkpaddler |
I WANT MY TWO DOLLARS |
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nctry |
Sometimes people may possibly joke about what they are charging for... Or is it your take? I recently objected to paying $1.70 for a "medium" coffee. The cup barely bigger than a little white solo... Mainly because I just spent over 1 $100 on fuel. Haha. To me it was always worth in to get into Ely and grab a permit for $2 and get on the water at the crack of 8:00... Even at LIS. Even though I could drive to Ely in less then two hours, I started using a bunk house at vno and enjoying a little Ely before my trip... And then yeah, they waved the fee of two bucks. |
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frlu0501 |
To answer a couple questions: The $2 fee was mentioned after we watched the video, we had already paid for/collected our permit and purchased some souvenirs. We initially did think she was joking and ignored the issue, it was brought it up again as we finished up our convo and were walking out; she was dead serious. Like I said before, I've made countless trips to the BWCA almost always transferring my permit to an outfitter and never been charged this fee. After reading through this thread I can understand the fee if we bought absolutely nothing in the shop, but this was not the case. I can't remember a time we purchased absolutely nothing at an outfitter after transferring the permit. As mentioned above, this is about the principle rather than the actual cost and they will have no idea why we never returned. |
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OCDave |
A $2 charge, as mentioned previously, is nominal with respect to the investment I've made in a trip to the BWCA but, it would dissuade me from returning to this outfitter. I'll pay you $2 once but, you will never know why I didn't come back. |
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VoyageurNorth |
I told him I didn't like that idea and even though he was "sure" no one would mind, I told him that customers would be very unhappy. He said, "Oh, it is on the credit card as an extra processing fee. We have lots of companies we have turned over to doing that". I politely (I think) told him that I would not be joining that list of companies. |
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johndku |
I've seen a couple of threads over the past few years complaining about some outfitters, maybe rightfully so, maybe not. I'd love to see a thread of outfitters telling stories about their worst/strangest/hardest to please customers....that would be a good read. |
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Mocha |
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nooneuno |
johndku: "I don't see the outfitters driving around in Ferrari's and eating caviar" That's only because you obviously don't travel in the same social circles as the outfitters. The last time I stopped in up at Voyeur's North I was forced to park my truck and canoe trailer at the gas station next door because Lynn's chauffeur had her limo parked sideways taking up all the spots in front, I twice asked him to move but still he refused, I soon found out why when her butler came out pushing a wheelbarrow full of 2 dollar bills to load in the trunk, apparently this is their daily 6 am ritual. Believe you me when I heard this I went elsewhere to purchase my 6 crappie minnows, that'll teach them..... |
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johndku |
nooneuno: "johndku: "I don't see the outfitters driving around in Ferrari's and eating caviar" Nice one, you got me laughing. They must show a lot of videos! |
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A1t2o |
For those acting like this is blown out of proportion for only $2, this is about the principle rather than the actual cost. I think most of us on this site have relatively similar thoughts considering our shared interest. We will pay for the permits and many other items that we may or may not need, but very few of us are going to tolerate things that feel disrespectful or petty. Charging a fee to watch a video is petty and a red flag making us think "what are they going to charge us for or be cheap about next?" |
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THEGrandRapids |
I have a lifetime sportsmen license and it states that issuers can charge $1 to issue the permit- never has happened, but I wouldn't gripe about it. Someone else mentioned the $10 recreation.gov fee... and how about the MN state park reservation fees? These put a really bad taste in my mouth. |
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billconner |
OCDave: "ozarkpaddler: "Never been charged and never thought about it. BUT, when you think about it, "Reservation.gov" charges for your permit and they aren't investing a "Live" employee to take care of you. IMHO, $2 is really under-charging for the service regardless of what you spend extra?" Lynn answered a part, if you want to issue permits to anyone, you must make the service available to all. But I'd be pretty sure there is no statuatory requirement that any bussiness of any type issue permits. I dont know what the requirements are to be a cooperator and isdue permits though. Could any of us, or at least any business, become a cooperator? |
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mjmkjun |
frlu0501: "We could have easily picked up our permit at the ranger station a couple miles away. I typically enjoy grabbing bait, talking to the outfitter, get a fishing report, souvenirs, ect. Yep. Unnecessary roughing of the paddlers. Flag on that play, Mr. Outfitter. :-D |
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VoyageurNorth |
That being said, I think most outfitters, VNO included, do not charge for any "regular" customers, those who are renting, buying bait, coming in to buy showers or make purchases. But we do sometimes charge for people that come in once or twice a year, just picking up their permit with us and getting nothing else. We don't always charge but it varies. We often have people come in very near closing time and just want to get their permit issued. Of course, that is one of the services we provide but we reserve the right to at least make $2.00 for that visit. If someone charged for the video, then I think it may have been meant to say that the fee for the issuing of the permit was the fee since you would be asked to watch the video unless you had gotten a permit issued. And I'm glad that you were made to view the video if you hadn't seen it this year or last. I hear (from many customers) who said when going to other areas of the BWCA or to other permit cooperators, that they haven't had to watch the video for quite a few years and were not asked if they had seen it before. The Forest Service would not be too happy with those companies. |
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MN_Lindsey |
cowdoc: "I've got a few canoes worth a couple thousand. A good couple hundred more in packs, tents, gear. I spend a fair amount on gas, meals and lodging to get up there. At any one time, I have at least $2 in change in my pocket. If people who support my passions want it, they can have it. Big picture...." +1 - I'd probably give an internal chuckle at the thought of it, but I agree w/cowdoc - what's $2 in the long run. I also agree with w/VNO - if you're just picking up your permit, and aren't buying bait, or even something in the shop then again, what's $2? You're supporting a local business that is supporting you. I think if you name the outfitter - you run the risk of ruffling feathers, so if it were me - I wouldn't. |
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inspector13 |
Ruffled feathers are only good in a pillow. |
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ozarkpaddler |
OCDave: "ozarkpaddler: "Never been charged and never thought about it. BUT, when you think about it, "Reservation.gov" charges for your permit and they aren't investing a "Live" employee to take care of you. IMHO, $2 is really under-charging for the service regardless of what you spend extra?" Well, the thing is you haven't paid the person doing the paperwork. Again, I've never been charged myself and had it happen to me I'd probably feel the same way....at first. Then, after reflection, $2 seems a nominal fee for their "Investment?" |
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unshavenman |
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Mocha |
you could say that the $2 goes toward purchasing toner ink. the USFS provides the fancy paper but that is it. the paper can only be used for printing permits and any screwups printing ... that piece of paper needs to be added to the file. must be accounted for. in my previous life as an outfitter we never charged the $2. rarely did we issue a permit when the guest didn't make another purchase. |
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Mocha |
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frlu0501 |
Mocha: They did mention that they have the option to charge the $2 but it was not mentioned when we picked up and paid for the permit. It was brought up after we watched the video? We thought they were joking. I had the permit transferred to the outfitter (like most trips) because of the more flexible hours and it's usually a one-stop shop for bait/tackle, souvenirs, and last minute gear. The action simply left a bad taste in my mouth after we spent between $50-100 on shirts and gear. It's not the $2 that bothers me, it's the principal. And no popcorn! As I mentioned before this was a first time occurrence. We've used many different outfitters to obtain our permit over the years. This particular outfitter will not be obtaining our business in the future. |
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bwcadan |
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troutdude |
Lodging up to $200 Fishing license with trout stamp $50 + Permit $16 Boat rental $322 Tow service $80 Restuarants $150 Micelaneous, gifts, knick knacks, maps, tackle, snacks $200 Back country food and booze $200 +/- Hourly employee lost wages - $2,694.40 Video $ PRICELESS Your particular trips may not reflect my costs. However, keep in mind that there are likely MANY others who spend far more than myself and my group enjoying the BWCAW. $2 is a drop in the bucket that helps support the families and employees who cater to our needs so that we may enjoy what we love. My $0.02 and our $2.00 |
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A1t2o |
frlu0501: "To answer a couple questions: The $2 fee was mentioned after we watched the video, we had already paid for/collected our permit and purchased some souvenirs. We initially did think she was joking and ignored the issue, it was brought it up again as we finished up our convo and were walking out; she was dead serious. " Was it $2 each or one charge for everyone? |
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mastertangler |
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TechnoScout |
OCDave: "I went out for dinner with the Mrs. this week to a small local restaurant. Added to our bill but, never acknowledged nor mentioned was a 3.5% charge for healthcare. While I STRONGLY believe everyone should have health insurance, I resent the method. This is a small establishment, dependent upon repeat business that will never know why I didn't come back. You may know already...nothing is free. ACA presents great costs to individuals and businesses. If you do not purchase ACA approved insurance, the IRS will tax you. They are passing that burden along to you. Maybe that will inform your vote...maybe not. Sorry...this is OFFTOPIC but just responding. |
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TominMpls |
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Duboly |
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SummerSkin |
TominMpls: "It's worth considering that being a cooperator costs the outfitters a lot of money every year, and the specific costs of displaying the video - a screen, a player, the opportunity cost of dedicating space to a seating or standing area - are costs they specifically incur because they have to show you the video. They wouldn't have those costs if you weren't watching the video there. These are small businesses trying to stay afloat, don't hold that against them." I think the frustration comes from the fact the outfitter didn't notify him of the fee until AFTER the service had already been rendered, not from the fact that there was a fee at all. People don't like feeling like being surprised with fees that were not agreed to beforehand. Even if it is a measly $2. I am not sure why the outfitter wouldn't just bake the $2 into the permit fee they charge. Seems obvious to me. |