Would there be any problem with a Sawyer canoe manufactured in late 80s early 90s in terms of the Lay-up of the Kevlar/GelCoat becoming "Brittle"?
Canoe was stored indoors and appears to of had little if any use. What type of Epoxy would they of used in the build?

I don't believe Sawyer ever used epoxy resin in their lay-up. Vinylester was the resin of choice for high-end composite canoes at that time. Still is, except for Souris River. It resists water absorption better than polyester resin and is sort of median between polyester and epoxy in structural properties.

I see boats that old and older being used all the time. They may have lost some of their elasticity, but they are not going to shatter.

If the price is right and its a boat you want, go for it.

My 1980 Sawyer Cruiser is a fiberglas layup, not Kevlar. We paddled it for a week in the BWCA a couple years ago when my Kevlar boat was out of commission. It held up just fine.

I have two canoes from the 80's (one of which is a Sawyer). If it has been kept out of the sun they should be fine.

quote sedges: "I don't believe Sawyer ever used epoxy resin in their lay-up. Vinylester was the resin of choice for high-end composite canoes at that time. Still is, except for Souris River. It resists water absorption better than polyester resin and is sort of median between polyester and epoxy in structural properties. "

What sedges said!

To the best of my knowledge, Sawyer Canoes of Oscoda, Michigan and Wenonah have primarily only used Vinylester resin, whereas Souris River, Savage River, Placid Boatworks & Swift, just to name a few, use Epoxy based resins.

I own six Sawyer canoes; all of them are from the 1980's when Sawyer was at its peak as far as design and construction. (Two "Goldenglass" hulls and four Expedition Kevlar hulls.) The years range from 1982 to 1989. Most of them have been well used, but they have all been well maintained, (i.e., stored clean, waxed regularly, resting on the gunnels and always stored inside and keep out of the sun). Despite their age, I detect little or no gel-coat or material degradation.

Pictured below are some recent pictures of my 80's era Sawyer Canoes. From left to right; 1985 Expedition Kevlar Cruiser, 1986 & 1989 Expedition Kevlar Summersong & Shockwave and a 1984 "Goldenglass" DY Special.

Given the description of the Sawyer canoe you're considering acquiring, I'd have no qualms buying that canoe if the price is fair.

Hans Solo

Placid does not use epoxy..does use vinylester.I dont recall what Swift uses but its never been epoxy..
I have three Swift Canoes from the late 80s still in fine shape stored indoors.

quote yellowcanoe: "Placid does not use epoxy..does use vinylester.I dont recall what Swift uses but its never been epoxy..
I have three Swift Canoes from the late 80s still in fine shape stored indoors."

I stated that Swift and Placid Boatworks use Epoxy "based" resins. Per their Website, both Swift and Placid clearly state that they use epoxy vinyl ester resin. That description leads me to believe that their epoxy vinyl ester resin must be some type of a proprietary blend. If in fact they strictly use, or have only used vinyl ester resin in their boat construction, then their laminate descriptions are rather misleading.

Hans Solo

All Vinylester is "Epoxy Vinylester" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_ester. It's just a marketing choice to add the epoxy term.

quote Bearskin Lodge: "All Vinylester is "Epoxy Vinylester" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_ester. It's just a marketing choice to add the epoxy term. "

Thank you Bearskin Lodge for better defining that terminology. In all my years of selling canoes & kayaks for several canoe and kayak dealerships, epoxy and vinylester were mutually exclusive terms. The canoes and kayaks manufacturers I have dealt with, (i.e., Sawyer, Wenonah, Old Town, Mad River, Curtis, Lotus, etc.), denoted one or the other, although most all of them used vinylester to the best of my memory.

In my opinion, the "Epoxy Vinylester" description seems misleading, although technically not untruthful. To me it's like saying you have a Kevlar canoe when in fact it's actually Kevlar reinforced fiberglass, (i.e. Sawyer's "Goldenglass"). I suppose for marketing purposes "Epoxy Vinylester" sounds more technical.

I can't help but think of George Carlin's mention of oxymoron terms like "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Sweet and Sour" chicken. :-)

Hans Solo

Hello Hans Solo. You seem to be the go to Sawyer guy, so I have a question regarding an ‘83 outrage goldenglass I just purchased. There is one spot on the outer “paint” (not sure what the material is) that is chipping off. Do you recommend anything in particular to patch this chipping and prevent its spread? I will attach a photo. You can see the fiberglass underneath the chipping. Thanks for any info.

Nbdodson: "Hello Hans Solo. You seem to be the go to Sawyer guy, so I have a question regarding an ‘83 outrage goldenglass I just purchased. There is one spot on the outer “paint” (not sure what the material is) that is chipping off. Do you recommend anything in particular to patch this chipping and prevent its spread? I will attach a photo. You can see the fiberglass underneath the chipping. Thanks for any info. "

Looks like it's just some chipping of the gel-coat. Judging by the picture you've posted, there doesn't seem to be much, if any, fabric damage.

Much like Wenonah, Sawyer used a vinyl-ester gel-coat. Although Sawyer is long gone, (unfortunately), you could acquire a gel-coat repair kit from Wenonah. That said, it appears you have an Outrage with a black gel-coat. Sawyer produced several models with an optional black gel-coat in the mid 80's, but to the best of my knowledge, Wenonah never did.

If you want a good color match, or you don't want to mess with the gel-coat repair yourself, you could look into a boat repair shop near your home that might be able to produce a good color match and do a professional repair.

I have personally relied on a local repair shop in Pewaukee, Wisconsin that has been repairing and maintaining my canoes for almost 40-years.

I've included a link below that explains gel-coat.

I hope my reply is helpful.

Hans Solo

WHAT IS A GEL-COAT AND WHAT IS IT FOR?

I'd happily hear who in Pewaukee you go to. I don't need anything now, but I'd like to hear a recommendation for the day when I do need someone.

mschi772: "I'd happily hear who in Pewaukee you go to. I don't need anything now, but I'd like to hear a recommendation for the day when I do need someone."

The boat repair business that I suggested is;

S&R Marine
501 Hickory Street
Pewaukee, WI 53072


S&R Marine

Hans Solo

jam66: "Would there be any problem with a Sawyer canoe manufactured in late 80s early 90s in terms of the Lay-up of the Kevlar/GelCoat becoming "Brittle"?
Canoe was stored indoors and appears to of had little if any use. What type of Epoxy would they of used in the build? "

I was in prototyping in a prior life. One of my favorite sayings from an old school boat builder was this. Do you want your boat to last 30 years or 100? That’s the difference between Poly and Epoxy.

Your canoe is nearing retirement age.

I hope it’s ok to jump on this thread from a few years ago. I recently acquired a 1988 Autumn Mist in Goldenglass and it has some long, lengthwise cracks in the gel coat, most of which appear to be along the margin where the thicker bottom layers meet the thinner side walls some are up to 12 inches long, or longer, and the longer ones appear to be delaminating at the edges. If it had not been left outside much of its life, it would be in exceptional condition for its age. Unfortunately the Michigan winters (and annual UP snow load) appear to have taken their toll on it. I have repaired UL We No Nah Kevlar canoes, and a tuf weave We No Nah, but this will be my first Goldenglass repair. The color appears to be a forest green, but it needs a lot more oxidation removed to be sure.

Questions:

Is there a recommended gel coat and color that is commercially available that would be a close match?

If not, is there a company that anyone can recommend that can custom match a gel coat color?

Can I sand down both edges of the cracks that seem to be delaminating at the edges, without getting into a Kevlar layer and turning it to powder?

Should I wrap each gel coat repair in Saran Wrap while it dries, like We No Nah recommends?

Is there anything else I should know?

Thanks for any and all help!

~ UW