Hi everybody,

7 athletic, experienced campers (mostly Utah backcountry and rivers) are looking to do the Sag, Knife Seagull loop with 3 nights of camping and 4 days of paddling.

We're getting a tow to AP - and plan to go in about as early as they'll take us.

Is this timeline too aggressive?

I'm hoping for about 4 hours of paddling a day - is that realistic?

In addition - any tips for favorite spots or things to lookout for?

I'm the only native Minnesotan, and am looking to show my wife's hardcore outdoor UT friends from out of state how beautiful this wilderness is.

Let me know what you guys think - thanks!

I'm curious to see what people have to say about this. I'm doing the same loop in Sept with my 3 kids and my son's girlfriend. All extremely fit, ages 22 to 25, plus old, fat me. We're planning on 7 days, probably with one layover day. I wonder if I'm going to have throw out a sea anchor to slow my kids down. It looks like the loop is about 40 miles. We've done 30 miles in a day before, but that was all downriver paddling.

Welcome. I have done this route (or something very similar) many times before. You have a few different ways to make this trip. Starting at on Big Sag at AP you can go a few ways that will be good for first timers.

Way 1: Swamp Lake, Ottertrack Lake, Knife Lake, around Thunder Point, back up Knife Lake South Arm, Eddy Lake, Jenny Lake, Ogishkemuncie Lake, Jasper Lake, Alpine Lake, Seagull Lake. (called the Thunder Point Loop by Seagull Outfitters - https://www.seagulloutfitters.com/thunder-point-loop/)

Way 2: Swamp Lake, Ottertrack Lake, Ester Lake, Hanson Lake, Knife Lake South Arm, Eddy Lake, Jenny Lake, Ogishkemuncie Lake, Jasper Lake, Alpine Lake, Seagull Lake. (Eddy and Hansen are very pretty)

I don't think you will be able to do either route in 4-days if you only plan on paddling 4-hours per day. For 4-hour paddle days I think this would be more of a 6-day trip. If you are willing to do 6 to 8-hour paddle days, then I think it is doable. But you might have to push on a few days.

Some of my favorite spots are the very first campsite you will reach at the far end of Ottertrack lake. Good swimming, good fishing, and there is almost always mist on the water in the mornings making it super pretty. Eddy falls is also a place to stop. Follow the trails on the bottom of the Knife to Eddy portage and there is a good swimming hole at the bottom of the falls. Once on Ogish, try to get one of the island sites on the southern/western side of the lake; once you get halfway up there was a forest fire about 10-years ago. While pretty, it is not the old growth that the southern side of the lake has.

Thank you for the thoughtful response - I'll have to see if the group is up for working this hard. 6-8 4 days in a row seems a bit intense, to be honest!

Anyone have any favorite ways to enjoy this same entry point with a shorter route?

Really appreciate the response.

Thanks!

With that tow to American Point, many would be able do RT’s route two with not much problem. For example: Day one- AP to Ester. Day two- Ester to Eddy. Day three- Eddy to Jasper. Day four- Jasper to the boat launch by Trail’s End campgrounds. A shorter route from Saganaga through Red Rock Lake would keep you in the Cavity Lake burn zone for half your time, and would provide very short paddle days.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply!

I'm glad to hear that we could accomplish that v2 route relatively easily.

We don't want our days to be too short, and I'd love to stay out of the burn zone as much as possible to best showcase our great state's beauty to these Utah friends.

I know it is hard to make forecasts - but does that v2 route with a tow to AP sound like a 4-5 hours of paddling per day? (Assuming good weather)

Thanks again!

I should add that we do have two marathon runners in the group - and everyone else is generally pretty fit.

We do like to eat well, we'll probably have an RTC thirty with ice and frozen meat.

Thanks, everybody!

After thinking about it, I agree. The Ester/Hansen way could easily be done I think. Though, I do wonder if 4-hour days would be too short. I've been racking my head about it ever since I posted.

Day one: AP to Hansen is totally doable in 4/5 hours
Day two: Hansen to Ogish is totally doable in 4/5 as well
Day three: Ogish to Seagull is totally doable in 4/5 too
Day four: Cross Seagull and be off the water in an hour or two.

Thanks for the great response!

We have no problem hanging out and fishing for a couple hours, or swimming + exploring. Great to hear that it might be too fast - we can deal with that. A rainy day inside the tent, or a perfect day on a good swimming spot could make the balance.

Most of the folks on the trip are used to rafting in the Rockies - where you have a cooler and weight isn't an issue. Our portages might be a surprise drag for the group - so maybe a bit of a cushion wouldn't hurt.

In your opinion - should we go the long way around Ottertrack and Knife? Would we be missing anything by skipping it?

This is really great advice, everyone - I really appreciate it!

Taking the shorter way is just as pretty as the longer way. The portage from Hansen into Knife South Arm is longish, downhill (mostly) and is covered by trees. It has been few years, but the last time I was on Hansen the small mouth bass were easy to catch.

The longer way lets you paddle on Knife Lake. It has got to be one of the cleanest and clearest lakes in the BW. There are many sites on the South Arm that I have camped at. And, if you are up for a quick uphill hike, find the trail that leads up to the ridge at Thunder Point, and enjoy lunch up there.

Either way you go, you will get to experience Monument Portage, Eddy Falls, Ogish Lake. So I think you are all good.

I keep pondering your original time frames, and if you have to keep 3-nights, 4-days, I think it would be totally doable on the shorter route paddling the amount of hours you want to paddle. I keep forgetting that I'm old and lazy (paddling slower than I used to).

Most people can paddle about 3mph with relatively calm conditions. And none of the portages you would be taking in that area are over 1/3 of a mile in length. Most are much shorter. You can get a better idea of how far you could go by measuring out your intended route with an on-line map.

If you find you will have plenty of time, instead of taking Ottertrack and Knife along the border, I would take the Cherry to Amoeber way. Check out this trip report for further ideas.

Thanks again for the great intel! This is super reassuring.
We're not planning on driving home the day we paddle out - going to crash at Trail Center for a night and relax. That should help us out and give us 4 true paddle days.

Thank you!

I've been to this area twice in two years. Sag -> Seagull the first year and Seagull -> Sag the second. This year we did Seagull to Sag via Knife Lake -> Ottertrack rather than South Arm of Knife Lake (SAK) -> Ester/Hanson. The first year we did it in 5 days including long paddles on the first and last days. We were tired. The second time we did in 6 days including a layover day with two 76 year old guys and a newbie (we paddle to Kekabic and back on the layover day). We had days with wind at our backs and days with wind in our faces. The difference in the amount of ground we could cover was substantial.

All the racing from one place to the next and the route selection is stressful for the group. This is a big difference from backpacking. More options, more wild cards, means more group dynamics.

Four days is not enough time. You'd need to get lucky with the wind. Fitness is only part of the issue. That is a lot of setting up and taking down camp and a lot of getting in and out of the boat.

The burn area is kind of a bust and there are a lot of portages from Seagull to SAK.

I suggest you start at American Point and paddle to Thunder point via Ottertrack and then back through SAK and Ester/Hanson. Minimal portaging and gorgeous territory.

Thank you for putting thought into this and sharing your experience!
Good points on stress and group dynamics. This is supposed to be a vacation, after all - not an endurance test.

My Mckenzie maps came in the mail today, and I was able to chart some things out for the shorter route of going down through Hansen/Ester and coming back up through Seagull. It looks like about 12-13 hours across 4 days assuming good conditions, and not including portages.

it is easy to forget just how tiring it all is though until your in it, especially in the rain or against the wind.

I'll compare with the route you suggest - and see how it looks. Doing all of Knife would be fun, and that Thunder Point looks spectacular. I've heard amazing things about the south end of Ottertrack.

Again, thank you for your feedback!

To avoid the burn areas and have some flexibility, how about Swamp, Ottertail, Ester, Hanson, Cherry, Topaz, Amoeber, South Arm Knife, then up Knife and back out the border lakes to a tow back from American Point?

I really want to thank everybody here for all their thoughtful responses. This is a great community with a lot of knowledge, and I am so glad I found it.

We've got 3 routes planned, based on your reccomendations (each one shorter than the last) and will see what the weather wants to do and what Voyageurs recommends while we're getting our gear.

With the group we have, we'll probably have the most fun if we take the most mellow path and just enjoy the wilderness.

While I would love to cover some ground and kind of enjoy the struggle, that may not be the recipe for group success.

Thanks everybody! I've never been this excited for a trip before.
We head out Monday - and I can barely wait.

Thanks again