I'm thinking of purchasing a Pakboat and was wondering if anyone could speak to their durability during portaging. I know that they hold up well in the water, but specifically, I am wondering if they are prone to puncture when being taken over rough, overgrown portages like one often encounters in the more remote regions of Ontario? Generally, I only clear these types of portages enough to get my canoe through, and at times it seems like I scratch my boats as much on these portages as I do in the water.

A lot of trippers to the far north seem to favor them due to they way the handle rapids and waves, and because they are cheaper to transport, but a lot of the portaging up there is above the treeline, so I've not been able to find much commentary on it.

Thanks

They're certainly not as durable on treed portages as fiberglass/kevlar. And you don't want to drop them on something sharp. On a five week, 600 mile trip with several long (1km +) treed portages, our Pakboat developed some small holes, probably from me falling with it (1x) or putting it down a bit more abruptly than I should have (getting used to a U-shaped yoke, general fatigue and lack of patience with black flies). We did some pretty nasty portages, and rock-strewn rapids, and the boat was abused--minor leaks, bent tubing. We also dragged it over too many rocks fully loaded. Duct tape solved the problems, and more permanent fixes were done once home. The second boat on the trip I don't think had any maintenance/wear issues. Although I'm a fast boat kinda guy (Wenonah, Jensen), I was thoroughly impressed with the Pakboats--they are awesome expedition canoes highly suitable for big waves and serious whitewater. I think of them as a boat to use when you HAVE to get to the end of the trip.

The taut sidewalls on my Pak boat cause me to do a lot of extra trimming on portages. Probably even a bigger issue on portages where branches have been broken off leaving a stub. The bottom is really tough but I am extra careful around beaver activity, again the sidewalls are vulnerable.

I can't speak for pakboats but my Ally folding canoe is extremely durable.

It is in near perfect condition after many trips, it is also for sale if you are interested.

LindenTree3: "I can't speak for pakboats but my Ally folding canoe is extremely durable.


It is in near perfect condition after many trips, it is also for sale if you are interested."

Sort of interested, however it'll likely be a post-Christmas purchase. What model Ally do you have?

Where have you tripped with it? The last couple of trips I've done have all been portages that either need to be re-opened, or were passable but had a lot of branches, brush etc... poking in from the sides. I want a folder anyways for trips I'll do further north someday, but I need something suitable for the Little North more urgently.

Thanks for the input guys. It's really nice to be able to get feedback so quickly.

user0317: "

LindenTree3: "I can't speak for pakboats but my Ally folding canoe is extremely durable.



It is in near perfect condition after many trips, it is also for sale if you are interested."

Sort of interested, however it'll likely be a post-Christmas purchase. What model Ally do you have?


Where have you tripped with it? The last couple of trips I've done have all been portages that either need to be re-opened, or were passable but had a lot of branches, brush etc... poking in from the sides. I want a folder anyways for trips I'll do further north someday, but I need something suitable for the Little North more urgently.


Thanks for the input guys. It's really nice to be able to get feedback so quickly."

It is 16 feet long, can be used as a solo or tandem, I mostly paddled it in Alaska but it has been on two BW trips since I moved back to the L-48. It is a Flatwater model with no rocker, but should work fine on big rivers.

I live in Duluth. Asking 1,100 bucks, (Normally 1,500+) it is like new condition and comes with a portage yoke that I fashioned up myself, it also comes with a backpack it fits into.
I chose the Ally because its 20 pounds lighter than pakboats and it does not have air baldders in the sidewalls to keep it afloat.



Ally 15.5 but it is 16 feet long

I used to own the PakCanoe 150 with the tandem converion kit.

From a durability standpoint I thought it was impressive. All of my portaging with it was in the BWCA, so we didn't really have issues with overgrown portages. The couple bad ones I've been on over the years would not have made me regret bringing a skin on frame hull. I never once felt like we had to baby it, including lures around the air bladders, though we still wet footed everything when possible. We treated it like the three kevlar boats in our family, no reason to cause unnecessary wear and tear. I think in their current generation the hull skin is quite durable, even on the side. You always risk a tear on any skin boat with enough abuse, but I think if paying attention it shouldn't be a major concern (maybe mild to moderate depending on how thick the "portage" is). Just don't treat it with 303 UV protectant. Patches will not hold if it is not COMPLETELY cleaned off, and that's a pain in the wilderness. I wouldn't hesitate to call them, Alv (the owner) is a great resource.

Paddling is where I had mixed feelings. I was very much impressed by it's tandem efficiency, on calmer flatwater it was as efficient as some ridgid tandem tripping canoes I've been in, but it still had problems in high headwind and waves. Because the boat flexes and rides over the waves (this is why it's such a good white water hull), we could notice a decent loss in speed/efficiency. Solo paddling was it's downfall for flatwater. Because all the PakCanoes have rocker built in to the design (you can sort of change it by placing weight further towards the stems), I always struggled to have good forward momentum in any type of wind, and with little to no load it would want to spin as soon as you stop paddling and pull the blade out. For a solo setup I firmly believe it should stay a down river boat and it certainly performs well for that. I only had it on the Upper Wisconsin river and another smaller river, never any white water, and it was a blast carving around twisty bends.

Now for the full disclosure. I work at a shop that has carried both PakBoats and Ally. The owner has both the Ally 17 and 15 (solo) in the flatwater hulls. I feel both are comparibly durable. Neither of use have had any damage during a collective 10ish years of use in the BWCA. The underside of the PakCanoe is more reinforced than the Ally, but the Ally has a thicker foam sheet between frame and skin. The air bladders on the Pakcanoe were truthfully the selling point for me. I built mine up alone for the first time in 40ish minutes. It took two of us to build a couple Ally 17s in around 1 hour and 40-50 minutes each. The frame is what tensions the skin, so you have to hammer the ribs into place. It takes quite a bit more effort. Also of note, the bladders on the PakCanoe do not actually keep it floating, they mostly just keep the skin tensioned and provide much better boyancy in the event of swamping the boat. If they all deflate and you can't repair, you will certainly not have ANY fun trying to get home, but the hull will still float if the water is calm. Now that I think of it, I wish I had tested it with only one or two of the bladders inflated. I did also car top my boat a number of times with no issues. I never felt like I was going to bend the gunwale, but I was also paying attention to how I was loading it. If you can find a flatwater hull from Ally (they pulled out of the USA market) you will have a better paddling lake canoe, maybe a little wetter in big waves, and both the PakCanoes and river hull Ally make great river trippers. More effort required on a lake in heavy conditions.

Most of this is more than you were asking for, but I figured if others are looking at the same boats I figured I'd put my experience out there.

If I was needing multiple boats to fly into a wilderness trip I would put both brands at the top of my list. If only one boat, and I could fit it in whatever form of transport, I'd probably stick to a ridgid hull to have a better all around performing boat (and a battering ram when I need it if it's the right material).

I've had a Pakboat 160 for 18 months now, will share my experience.
I've owned, paddled rigid boats including O.T. Tripper, Swift Winisk, Mad River Typhoon (fast!), Wenonah Sp II, many others.
Pakboat rocker changes easily by adjusting load.
No shortage of foot bracing points stern or bow.
More efficient than expected, easily holds pace with 16'+ rigid boats.
Crunchy landings on gravel, concrete, shells and limbs have left the bottom unmarked.
This canoe wriggles and slides around underwater objects like nothing I've ever paddled.
BTW, I can't assemble in the '30-40 minutes' many report. Probably I don't do it often enough. Local transport on a canoe trailer is easy.
I took Cliff Jacobson and others Pakboat praise with a grain of salt but would say they are very accurate.
I'm sure a hard, dead branch could puncture the skin on portage but patching is easy.

I can set up my Ally in about 45 minutes alone, around 30 minutes with two people.

I appreciate this thread and the info about Pakboats, it gives me another perspective.
While I have not put a hole in my Ally yet, it sounds like both boats are very durable..
My Ally glides over rocks like a snake, probabaly due to its outer membrane and ability to flex.

Good job on getting assembly time down. I'm sure I could have, but both boats were brand new, skins were as tight as they ever will be, and I could be talked into hinting that the person "helping" was actually making it take longer (I think I did just hint). Both boats certainly get easier the more you build them and the older they get.

I also agree on gliding over sunken logs, rocks, and the like. They flex beautifully over stuff that my ridgid boats hang up on. I will hopefully get another one someday! They are not gimmicky toys, they are very well designed tools.

I also have an Ally 17' tandem (the stiffer lake model as opposed to the flexier river model). The first time assembling it took a long time. The second time was about 45 minutes. The new skin did need some stretching out by leaving it assembled for a while. We haven't used it on a trip with portaging and so can't comment on that but it seems like a really tough boat.

I have had a good experience with Pak canoe. We did 26 Days down the Kazan River with multiple portages; one portage was about a mile and half. Mostly river but 4 lakes of 30+ miles per lake.
Due to a person leaving the trip on day 14 ; three of us piled into 1 Pak 170 Canoe for the last 12 days. We were overloaded, but managed to continue and finish the trip. I was impressed with how the canoe held up with more load than should be put in 1 canoe. No cuts or scores in the hull. There was not much for wood/ sticks after day 3 so how they respond to that I am not sure.
I have assembled over 20 different Pak canoes over the years and they go together pretty easy if you follow the order in the instructions. I have only assembled one Ally canoe- I was not impressed with it- this was over 8 years ago I believe.

There's some great info in this thread.

The Kazan is on my bucketlist of 'far north trips'.

ChrisM: "Good job on getting assembly time down. I'm sure I could have, but both boats were brand new, skins were as tight as they ever will be, and I could be talked into hinting that the person "helping" was actually making it take longer (I think I did just hint). Both boats certainly get easier the more you build them and the older they get.


I also agree on gliding over sunken logs, rocks, and the like. They flex beautifully over stuff that my ridgid boats hang up on. I will hopefully get another one someday! They are not gimmicky toys, they are very well designed tools."

I think temperature has alot to do with how easy it is to set up an Ally.
I'm going to set mine up this spring on a warm sunny day and leave it that way all summer. Last time I set it up on a cool cloudy day, boy it went together tough.

I also put all bow to stern bars affixed, then I press them into the canoe all at the same time, this seems to help because affixing them one at a time puts alot of stress on that spar and seems to take longer in the set up.